greatest player by league (women)

And now the same for the gals (open era only, too):

League 1: Graf, Navratilova, Court, Evert, King

League 2: Seles, Hingis, Henin, S. Williams, Goolagong

League 3: Mandlikova, Sabatini, V. Williams, Sanchez, Davenport


What do you think?

Condi
 
Hingis and JHH ahead of Serena Williams in League 2 - Hardly!

Besides the fact that JHH and Hingis both have losing records against Serena Williams, Serena is also one of only 5 women in tennis history to win all 4 grand slams in a row (the Serena Slam) - something that even Seles and some of the women you listed in League 1, in front of Serena, can't claim.

When you add in Serena Williams' Grand Slams titles (6) in doubles/mixed and her superior career winning percentage, Serena is definitely in front of Hingis and way in front of JHH! Her popularity on this board notwithstanding, she is definitely League 1!
 
Hingis and JHH ahead of Serena Williams in League 2 - Hardly!

Besides the fact that JHH and Hingis both have losing records against Serena Williams, Serena is also one of only 5 women in tennis history to win all 4 grand slams in a row (the Serena Slam) - something that even Seles and some of the women you listed in League 1, in front of Serena, can't claim.

When you add in Serena Williams' Grand Slams titles (6) in doubles/mixed and her superior career winning percentage, Serena is definitely in front of Hingis and way in front of JHH! Her popularity on this board notwithstanding, she is definitely League 1!


Hingis and Henin are not ahead of Serena, I didn't want to differentiate WITHIN a league.

But Serena is not league 1 either.
She had only 13 great months (June 2002 - July 2003) in which she won 5 of her 7 slams. She has far less slams than Graf, King et al.
Comparable to Monica Seles. A short great time and then getting over-weight, injured, out-of-form. Definitely not league 1!

Condi
 
Hingis and Henin are not ahead of Serena, I didn't want to differentiate WITHIN a league.

But Serena is not league 1 either.
She had only 13 great months (June 2002 - July 2003) in which she won 5 of her 7 slams. She has far less slams than Graf, King et al.
Comparable to Monica Seles. A short great time and then getting over-weight, injured, out-of-form. Definitely not league 1!

Condi

every active wta player has "far less slams" than graf, king, etc! it's a different era.

as good as sharapova & henin are, and the williams sisters were, none of them will ever approach the number of grand slams as any of your league 1 players of the past.

first, there's much more parity among today's female players namely because of the 'internationalization' of the game. with the opening up of the soviet union alone, we are seeing a proliferation of talent that wasn't on the map in evert's days. that's why you are seeing sharapova, petrova, and all the other ova's storming the top 10! and as china & india, with their billion plus populations, continue to blossom economically, so that tennis is accessible to the masses, we'll see even more international players.

secondly, we won't see that number of grand slams again from women players because of today's injury factor. during evert's era, there were a lot more clay and grass tournaments, which are much easier on the knees and body; hence, navratilova, evert, etc. were essentially injury-free throughout their very long careers. contrast that with today when most tier 1 events are played on hard court. even the wta's most fittest players - henin, clistjers, mauresmo, sharapova, etc - all have been out with injury numerous times already and probably will be many more times over their career.

in conclusion, comparing your league 1 tennis players to today's tennis players is comparing apples to oranges. it's like comparing byron nelson's dominance in the golf (playing against a limited field of rich white american and european players) versus tiger woods' dominance against an international field of players from all over the world, like vijay singh (indian descent), ernie els (south africa), etc. the tiger slam, like the serena slam, is way more credible imo because they were acheived against a truer talent pool of competitors from all over the world!
 
every active wta player has "far less slams" than graf, king, etc! it's a different era.

as good as sharapova & henin are, and the williams sisters were, none of them will ever approach the number of grand slams as any of your league 1 players of the past.

first, there's much more parity among today's female players namely because of the 'internationalization' of the game. with the opening up of the soviet union alone, we are seeing a proliferation of talent that wasn't on the map in evert's days. that's why you are seeing sharapova, petrova, and all the other ova's storming the top 10! ...

I don't agree at all.
Federer (and Tiger Woods in golf for example) is proof that there will always be great players who will win tons of majors/slams. Of course we will have a really great female player in the Graf/Navratilova/Evert/Court mould some day again!
There was no player between the 30ies and the 60ies in women's tennis who won more than 9 slams either. It is a transitional phase today, again. The heir of Graf will be found someday. Even if it seems that it will be only in the next generation and not among today's players.
Again: Think of Federer, Woods, Schumacher, Armstrong. Very competitive sports, but great athletes who break every record and dominate as almost no-one before them.

Condi
 
...the tiger slam, like the serena slam, is way more credible imo because they were acheived against a truer talent pool of competitors from all over the world!


The "Serena slam"?
Serena beat her sisters in four finals. Who was a mental basket case in these matches.
Who else were Serena's opponents?
Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo still far away from their peaks.
Hingis virtually out due to injury.
Davenport had tons of injuries in those years, is no great player anyway.
Capriati? Please ....

Condi
 
Court is the greatest Grand Slam winner ever... Period..

Steffi was second..

Condi, you sound like some kind of Graf stalker with the way you go on about the woman so much?

Oh and the fact that you either change history to put Graf at # 1, or you simply just ignore it..

I will say that Steffi is the best of the modern era.. Just not the GOAT..

The sad thing is, and in most of your posts.. Your desire to be right will shine through again, and you will attack me, and any argument I have regarding this subject.. So if you will. Please entertain us with that great mind of yours!.
 
The "Serena slam"?
Serena beat her sisters in four finals. Who was a mental basket case in these matches.
Who else were Serena's opponents?
Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo still far away from their peaks.
Hingis virtually out due to injury.
Davenport had tons of injuries in those years, is no great player anyway.
Capriati? Please ....

Condi

if winning 4 grand slams (the serena slam) in a row is so easy, why has it only been 5 times in the entire history of women tennis? even some of your great league 1 players never acheived it.
 
Court is the greatest Grand Slam winner ever... Period..

Steffi was second..

Condi, you sound like some kind of Graf stalker with the way you go on about the woman so much?

Oh and the fact that you either change history to put Graf at # 1, or you simply just ignore it..

I will say that Steffi is the best of the modern era.. Just not the GOAT..

The sad thing is, and in most of your posts.. Your desire to be right will shine through again, and you will attack me, and any argument I have regarding this subject.. So if you will. Please entertain us with that great mind of yours!.


There was no GOAT discussion in this thread until you hijacked it!
Graf is definitely a "league 1" player of the open era, up there with Evert, Court, Navratilova. Even BJK is "league 1", IMO.
And no, Serena is no "league 1" player.

BTW, I entertain you regularily with my great mind. Especially with facts. Whereas you have only gut feelings. No hard facts, no stats.

Condi
 
There was no GOAT discussion in this thread until you hijacked it!
Graf is definitely a "league 1" player of the open era, up there with Evert, Court, Navratilova. Even BJK is "league 1", IMO.
And no, Serena is no "league 1" player.

BTW, I entertain you regularily with my great mind. Especially with facts. Whereas you have only gut feelings. No hard facts, no stats.

Condi

the fact is - only 5 women in history have won 4 grand slams in a row so, if i was so easy, why haven't more women done it, including all your league 1 players.

nothing personal condi, we just don't agree about serena's ranking - and last time i checked, it was ok for 2 people not to agree in america?
 
the fact is - only 5 women in history have won 4 grand slams in a row so, if i was so easy, why haven't more women done it, including all your league 1 players.

nothing personal condi, we just don't agree about serena's ranking - and last time i checked, it was ok for 2 people not to agree in america?

Well, I'm not from America.

Hingis won 3 AOs in a row. No-one in the open era did that. But of course she is not "league 1" either.
Serena definitely is NOT in the same league as Graf (22 slams), Evert (18 slams) or Navratilova (18 slams). To say otherwise is ridiculous.

Condi
 
Well, I'm not from America.

i'm sorry - where are you from? maybe that explains your hostility towards dissenting opinions? in america, it's ok to disagree (example - republicans and democrats, against the war in iraq vs. for the war, etc)

Serena definitely is NOT in the same league as Graf (22 slams), Evert (18 slams) or Navratilova (18 slams). To say otherwise is ridiculous.

once again we differ and that's ok! winning 4 grand slams in a row, since it's only been done 5 times in the entire history of women's tennis, obviously means more to some people than it does to you - and again, it ok that we don't agree.

i'm sure serena is not losing any sleep whatsoever over whether some 'armchair quarterbacks' like you, i, or others deem her as 'league 1' or not. history will ultimately judge her final position and considering she's only in her mid 20's, the jury is definitely still out.
 
... i'm sure serena is not losing any sleep whatsoever over whether some 'armchair quarterbacks' like you, i, or others deem her as 'league 1' or not. history will ultimately judge her final position and considering she's only in her mid 20's, the jury is definitely still out.

I think she will be losing some sleep when she is older when she thinks about how she has squandered her talent because she hasn't brought up the mental fortitude and work ethic to stay at the top. Instead she embarrassed herself with a "movie career" and with partying with B-celebs.

Her time is over now, sadly. She could have won 10 or 12 slams (with maybe a shot at being a "league 1" player even!)

Condi
 
I think she will be losing some sleep when she is older when she thinks about how she has squandered her talent because she hasn't brought up the mental fortitude and work ethic to stay at the top. Instead she embarrassed herself with a "movie career" and with partying with B-celebs.

Her time is over now, sadly. She could have won 10 or 12 slams (with maybe a shot at being a "league 1" player even!)

Condi

i think that globe warming will kill us all soon; therefore, who is a league 1 or league 2 great in tennis will be of no importance! in the meantime, serena williams is one of only 5 women in the entire history of tennis to hold all 4 grand slams at one time - not too shabby, something even all your league 1 picks didn't accomplish!
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
League 1: Graf, Navratilova, Court

League 2: Evert, King, Seles

Serena 2.5: Serena, Austin, Henin

League 3: Hingis, Goolagong, V. Williams

League 4: Mandlikova, Sabatini, Sanchez, Davenport
 

Grimjack

Banned
Tier 1: Navratilova, Evert, Court
Tier 2: Seles, King
Tier 3: Everybody else

(Things which may have kept others out of tiers 1 or 2 include, but are not limited to: too few slam titles, too brief a period of dominance, obvious steroid abuse, knife-wielding henchman abuse, etc.)
 
i think that globe warming will kill us all soon; therefore, who is a league 1 or league 2 great in tennis will be of no importance! in the meantime, serena williams is one of only 5 women in the entire history of tennis to hold all 4 grand slams at one time - not too shabby, something even all your league 1 picks didn't accomplish!

Evert's 18 slams are far more valuable.
What would you prefer - 18 slams or 4 slams in a row?
There you are ...

Condi
 
Evert's 18 slams are far more valuable.
What would you prefer - 18 slams or 4 slams in a row?
There you are ...

Condi

i prefer 4 in a row and 15 overall slams!

(7 singles, 6 doubles, 2 mixed) and a $100+ million dollars!

and considering she's only 25, it's nice to have the years and the option to add more to those totals!

more importantly, i prefer being one of only 5 women in tennis history to hold all 4 slams at one time, something not even evert can claim!
 
And now the same for the gals (open era only, too):

League 1: Graf, Navratilova, Court, Evert, King

League 2: Seles, Hingis, Henin, S. Williams, Goolagong

League 3: Mandlikova, Sabatini, V. Williams, Sanchez, Davenport


What do you think?

Condi

OK, NOW I UNDERSTAND - when you asked "what do you think", you didn't really mean what do you think.

you really meant, your decisions about who is league 1, 2, & 3 are perfect and i need everyone to agree with me so i feel validated. otherwise, i'm going to spend this entire thread trying to convince everyone why my thoughts/selections about who is league 1, 2, & 3 are correct and everyone else's opinion isn't worth s**t, if they don't agree with me.

well, unfortunately i don't agree with you -winning 4 grand slams in a row, something that one 5 women have done in the entire history of tennis, is still more impressive in my book and is worthy of a league 1 selection (in my humble opinion).
 
Queen Steffi "if" she had passed Courts singles record.....

As I cant see her comming out of retirement and getting another 3 of them, then you can stop the queen stuff..

Good, great, excellent, superlative, supreme #2 on the all time list is a little more "correct".....

Even though I am Australia, I really didnt like Court out of the game, as I dont think she has done much for tennis since. So I have no reason to toot her horn. But history is history...

But again, I really wish you would stop changing history Condi, and keep your enthusiasm for Steffi at a level she deserves..

She is your favourite player it seems, just be an adult and say that. But dont change history to win an argument.
 
OK, NOW I UNDERSTAND - when you asked "what do you think", you didn't really mean what do you think.

you really meant, your decisions about who is league 1, 2, & 3 are perfect and i need everyone to agree with me so i feel validated. otherwise, i'm going to spend this entire thread trying to convince everyone why my thoughts/selections about who is league 1, 2, & 3 are correct and everyone else's opinion isn't worth s**t, if they don't agree with me.

well, unfortunately i don't agree with you -winning 4 grand slams in a row, something that one 5 women have done in the entire history of tennis, is still more impressive in my book and is worthy of a league 1 selection (in my humble opinion).


I wanted to know what you think and discuss - if there were any - our different views. When I discuss I want to convince that my view is right.

And make no mistake: Almost no tennis expert or historian will agree with you that Serena belongs into the same league as all-time great like Court, Navratilova, Evert and Graf.

1) All those players have 18+ slams. Serena has 7.

2) All those players were #1 for many, many years (each at least for 6 years). Serena was the best only in one year (2002).

3) Evert, Navratilova, Court and Graf have won at least 100 singles titles each. Serena has won 26.

I hope you see the light ...


Condi
 
Queen Steffi "if" she had passed Courts singles record.....

As I cant see her comming out of retirement and getting another 3 of them, then you can stop the queen stuff..

Good, great, excellent, superlative, supreme #2 on the all time list is a little more "correct".....

Even though I am Australia, I really didnt like Court out of the game, as I dont think she has done much for tennis since. So I have no reason to toot her horn. But history is history...

But again, I really wish you would stop changing history Condi, and keep your enthusiasm for Steffi at a level she deserves..

She is your favourite player it seems, just be an adult and say that. But dont change history to win an argument.

i totally agree! i would rank court and navratilova in front of graf, especially since she won many gs because of the elimination of her top competitor, seles - certainly she didn't cause it but she surely benefitted from it!
 
Queen Steffi "if" she had passed Courts singles record.....

As I cant see her comming out of retirement and getting another 3 of them, then you can stop the queen stuff..

Good, great, excellent, superlative, supreme #2 on the all time list is a little more "correct".....

Even though I am Australia, I really didnt like Court out of the game, as I dont think she has done much for tennis since. So I have no reason to toot her horn. But history is history...

But again, I really wish you would stop changing history Condi, and keep your enthusiasm for Steffi at a level she deserves..

She is your favourite player it seems, just be an adult and say that. But dont change history to win an argument.


I was talking about "leagues" of players, not about the GOAT in this thread.
Court and Graf are "league 1", Serena is not.
Most tennis experts don't value Court's 11 Australian championships that much because back then not all the top players made the trip to Australia.
Most of the time Marge played local girls in the first 3 rounds (she had to win only 4 matches to reach the finals in the 60ies). So Australians think Court is the GOAT, Americans take Navratilova - and Europeans and Asians have Graf. Of course Europe and Asia have more tennis fans than Australia .... :-D

Condi
 
I was talking about "leagues" of players, not about the GOAT in this thread.
Court and Graf are "league 1", Serena is not.
Most tennis experts don't value Court's 11 Australian championships that much because back then not all the top players made the trip to Australia.
Most of the time Marge played local girls in the first 3 rounds (she had to win only 4 matches to reach the finals in the 60ies). So Australians think Court is the GOAT, Americans take Navratilova - and Europeans and Asians have Graf. Of course Europe and Asia have more tennis fans than Australia .... :-D

Condi

it must be nice to able to make up statistics as you go. show us your supporting evidence that your assertions "that americans take navratilova as the GOAT", "asians pick graf", etc.

i agree with chris, you will try twist, tarnish, or just plain make up statistics to try and win an argument. hate to tell you this but your efforts are in vain.
 
i totally agree! i would rank court and navratilova in front of graf, especially since she won many gs because of the elimination of her top competitor, seles - certainly she didn't cause it but she surely benefitted from it!

But Graf had to end her slam winning career at age 27 (won only 1 slam afterwards) due to back and knee injuries. She had to call it quits right after her 30th birthday. Otherwise she would have won at least 3 or 4 slams more. And don't forget how Seles took many slams in the early 90ies when Graf was severely distracted by criminal trials and investigations she wasn't responsible for.

Navratilova benefitted from Austin's career being cut short due to injury.

And I have never heard of any tennis expert who rates Graf only #3 in the GOAT race ....


Condi
 
it must be nice to able to make up statistics as you go. show us your supporting evidence that your assertions "that americans take navratilova as the GOAT", "asians pick graf", etc.

i agree with chris, you will try twist, tarnish, or just plain make up statistics to try and win an argument. hate to tell you this but your efforts are in vain.

I work with facts, I don't make up statistics. Prove otherwise or just shut up, whiner!
You work only with gut feelings and prejudices. A real fanboy ....


Condi
 
Queen Steffi "if" she had passed Courts singles record.....

As I cant see her comming out of retirement and getting another 3 of them, then you can stop the queen stuff..

Good, great, excellent, superlative, supreme #2 on the all time list is a little more "correct".....

Even though I am Australia, I really didnt like Court out of the game, as I dont think she has done much for tennis since. So I have no reason to toot her horn. But history is history...

But again, I really wish you would stop changing history Condi, and keep your enthusiasm for Steffi at a level she deserves..

She is your favourite player it seems, just be an adult and say that. But dont change history to win an argument.

i too would rank court & navratilova in front of graf, especially since she won many grand slams because of the elimination of her top competitor, seles - certainly she didn't cause it but she surely benefitted from it!
 
I work with facts, I don't make up statistics. Prove otherwise or just shut up, whiner!
You work only with gut feelings and prejudices. A real fanboy ....


Condi

now you resort to name-calling when you get called on the carpet about making up statistics.

show us your supporting evidence for your assertions "that americans take navratilova as the GOAT", "asians pick graf", etc.

chris was rioght - you will try twist, tarnish, or just plain make up statistics to try and win an argument. your efforts are in vain!
 
Now she wants to take away Courts 11 Australian Opens, yet complains that Graf's career was cut short because of injury, and so she "would", "could", "should" have been the GOAT..

The same could be said for today's Australian Open.. I dont think much has changed.. Just by the sheer numbers of players that always miss it every year, or are too lazy to come.. If you are going to take away Courts 11, then you may aswell take away Pete's, and Andre's and Beckers aswell. Oh, and Steffi won a couple..

Then if you are going to use the same argument that you have on many similar threads. Then lets not count Steffi's first Australian Open, because she beat a tired old Chris Evert, so how could that possible count?..

Sheesh Condi.. The more you reply. The dumber you appear. I would cut and run while you still can.. With atleast a little bit of credability in tact...

Condi, we get it love..You like Graf, and you wish she was noted as being the best.. And I agree she was a pretty s$#t hot tennis player.. One of the greats. But why carry on in this manner when you could have nice and interesting conversations with people?
 
Now she wants to take away Courts 11 Australian Opens, yet complains that Graf's career was cut short because of injury, and so she "would", "could", "should" have been the GOAT..

The same could be said for today's Australian Open.. I dont think much has changed.. Just by the sheer numbers of players that always miss it every year, or are too lazy to come.. If you are going to take away Courts 11, then you may aswell take away Pete's, and Andre's and Beckers aswell. Oh, and Steffi won a couple..

Then if you are going to use the same argument that you have on many similar threads. Then lets not count Steffi's first Australian Open, because she beat a tired old Chris Evert, so how could that possible count?..

Sheesh Condi.. The more you reply. The dumber you appear. I would cut and run while you still can.. With atleast a little bit of credability in tact...

Condi, we get it love..You like Graf, and you wish she was noted as being the best.. And I agree she was a pretty s$#t hot tennis player.. One of the greats. But why carry on in this manner when you could have nice and interesting conversations with people?

No wonder people like you have to face racism in Japan ....

Condi
 
Is it the fact that you have been corrected. Or the fact that your argument's are about as convincing and intelligent as a turnip dressed up as a lemming that makes you so angry?

Seriously.. It is after all just a message board. So whats with all the agro when someone differs from you?..Are you like this in person, or is your anger just an online thing?

Anyway, just my 2 cents....;)
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Is it the fact that you have been corrected. Or the fact that your argument's are about as convincing and intelligent as a turnip dressed up as a lemming that makes you so angry?

Seriously.. It is after all just a message board. So whats with all the agro when someone differs from you?..Are you like this in person, or is your anger just an online thing?

Anyway, just my 2 cents....;)


I am not standing up for the sickko who keeps posting the same stuff about a player I like, but who gets so many attacks here because of posters like Condi st. I do feel that people should take a careful look when naming greats.

Margaret has done a great feat winning 24 Grand Slam titles, but people should realise that 11 of them came on a surface called grass and was in an era where a lot of the top players didn't go to the AO. Three of the surfaces were played on grass only RG was on clay. So the transition was less difficult.

Anti Graf posters (and Condi is one of them) are making it look like that the competition she had pre-Monica was weak and that when Seles came she finally had an equal. The latter part is true, but the competition Graf had to play was the same as Seles' had to battle.

The Stabbing: No real Graf fan will deny the impact of the stabbing it had on tennis, but also on Seles. Graf was the only one who went to visit Monica as soon as she heard off it. And yes, they were no friends, so any contact between them would have been awkard, even in a situation like this. It was a self acclaimed Graf fan who stabbed Seles, but no one in their right mind should Graf responsible. Why did only she get the blame for winning those titles. Would people reacted the same way had some one else done it. Monica didn't help either, I still believe she dislikes Graf and made people believe Steffi was to blame. I do believe Graf could have done a lot more for Seles.

Why do I put Graf above Seles, is that Graf has been able to win slams on all the surfaces against more generations than Monica. People like to forget that prior to the Hamburg 93 tournament Graf was very close in points to Monica. Graf of 1988 would have lost against Graf of end 1995/6.

I find it very difficult to choose between Navratilova and Graf, also because their head to head is tied at 9-9, who is greater. I think Navratilova should practise what she once preached: she once siad about Steffi in 1987 that Steffi goes for quantity and she (Martina) for quality. 20 years later Navratilova is doing her best to win everything what is possible to secure her legacy. But doubles and mixed should never determine greatness. Winning landmarks should. You can deny a Golden Slam.

Battle on, I am signing out, have a nice day.
 
Is it the fact that you have been corrected. Or the fact that your argument's are about as convincing and intelligent as a turnip dressed up as a lemming that makes you so angry?

Seriously.. It is after all just a message board. So whats with all the agro when someone differs from you?..Are you like this in person, or is your anger just an online thing?

Anyway, just my 2 cents....;)

Where have I been corrected?
I'm still waiting for you to prove that I made up a stats.
Which stats?

And I don't think that I'm aggressive. I love to be sarcastic towards dumb people, yes. And you don't want to tell me that the average IQ here is above the overall population's ..... :-D

Condi
 
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