Greatest Serves of All Time

Found these unreturned-serves stats from 1939.

This was a match in Philadelphia, the third meeting between Budge and Vines in their cross-country H2H tour. It was Vines' first victory, after straight-set defeats in New York and Boston.

American Lawn Tennis ran a report covering the first ten matches of the series and had this for the Philadelphia match:

Large crowds (the biggest ever in several of the cities) have reveled in the class of tennis displayed—with Vines supplying most of the pyrotechnics and Budge the epitome of steadiness. When Ellsworth is in “touch” he seems to hold the edge and yet Don has showed an ability to lift his game and keep it on an unusually high scale that some doubted he could or would reach. As an amateur he was able to play himself into his best form when the “chips were down,” but seldom went all out on less important occasions....

The first defeat for Budge in his new career as a professional came on the evening of January 5 in Philadelphia Convention Hall. Budge found the service and forehand drive of Vines stronger and more accurate in this third meeting of the tour ...

The size of the crowd was disappointing, estimates of the attendance running from 6,000 to 8,500, but it is well to compromise at 7,000. There were many empty seats, particulary in the sections selling for the top price of $4.40, whereas the $1.14 seats, the cheapest, were filled. However, the undertaking was a financial success, probably grossing more than $15,000.

It was not a good match, nor an interesting or colorful one. Budge was well below form, his edge perhaps taken off from the rush between New York, Boston and Philadelphia, in short—trouper’s weariness. His control ragged, especially on the backhand which committed 37 of his 65 errors, he could not trade shots with Vines for long and the exchanges were necessarily short.

On the other hand Budge was forced into many errors by some of the best powerhouse drives and services Vines has ever shown in Philadelphia. Vines was distinctly “on.” His flat forehand drive was simply great, at times bulleting for clean placements down the line as Budge came in, at other times smashing crosscourt for a point against Budge’s service.

The odds were all with Vines on service. He served nine aces to two, finishing the match with one. Moreover, he was severe enough on other occasions to force Budge into 17 outs or net of his service returns. Vines made only seven errors in returning Budge’s service. Budge collected but two aces and made three double faults against one. Vines dealt well with the few volleys he had, whereas Budge messed up his few.​

Per the Point Score:

Vines won 101 points, Budge 75.

Vines won 54 of 82 points on serve (65.9%).
Budge won 47 of 94 points on serve (50.0%).

Vines served on 82 points and 26 serves did not come back: 31.7%
Budge served on 94 points and 9 serves did not come back: 9.6%


Vines was broken 3 times, Budge 7 times.
 
Just to reiterate, Joachim ''Pim-Pim'' Johansson had the best serve, ever!:cool:

boy, he was a nasty server. i kind of miss that guy. he wasnt all that interesting to watch but it was fun seeing how opponents tried to deal with him.. remember moving way back in out of the court in australia? i never saw him do that any other time in his career. Andre was like WTF???
 
Found these unreturned-serves stats from 1939.

This was a match in Philadelphia, the third meeting between Budge and Vines in their cross-country H2H tour. It was Vines' first victory, after straight-set defeats in New York and Boston.

American Lawn Tennis ran a report covering the first ten matches of the series and had this for the Philadelphia match:

Large crowds (the biggest ever in several of the cities) have reveled in the class of tennis displayed—with Vines supplying most of the pyrotechnics and Budge the epitome of steadiness. When Ellsworth is in “touch” he seems to hold the edge and yet Don has showed an ability to lift his game and keep it on an unusually high scale that some doubted he could or would reach. As an amateur he was able to play himself into his best form when the “chips were down,” but seldom went all out on less important occasions....

The first defeat for Budge in his new career as a professional came on the evening of January 5 in Philadelphia Convention Hall. Budge found the service and forehand drive of Vines stronger and more accurate in this third meeting of the tour ...

The size of the crowd was disappointing, estimates of the attendance running from 6,000 to 8,500, but it is well to compromise at 7,000. There were many empty seats, particulary in the sections selling for the top price of $4.40, whereas the $1.14 seats, the cheapest, were filled. However, the undertaking was a financial success, probably grossing more than $15,000.

It was not a good match, nor an interesting or colorful one. Budge was well below form, his edge perhaps taken off from the rush between New York, Boston and Philadelphia, in short—trouper’s weariness. His control ragged, especially on the backhand which committed 37 of his 65 errors, he could not trade shots with Vines for long and the exchanges were necessarily short.

On the other hand Budge was forced into many errors by some of the best powerhouse drives and services Vines has ever shown in Philadelphia. Vines was distinctly “on.” His flat forehand drive was simply great, at times bulleting for clean placements down the line as Budge came in, at other times smashing crosscourt for a point against Budge’s service.

The odds were all with Vines on service. He served nine aces to two, finishing the match with one. Moreover, he was severe enough on other occasions to force Budge into 17 outs or net of his service returns. Vines made only seven errors in returning Budge’s service. Budge collected but two aces and made three double faults against one. Vines dealt well with the few volleys he had, whereas Budge messed up his few.​

Per the Point Score:

Vines won 101 points, Budge 75.

Vines won 54 of 82 points on serve (65.9%).
Budge won 47 of 94 points on serve (50.0%).

Vines served on 82 points and 26 serves did not come back: 31.7%
Budge served on 94 points and 9 serves did not come back: 9.6%


Vines was broken 3 times, Budge 7 times.

Krosero,

What was the score of the match?
 
Pancho Gonzalez said in '57 that he had made some changes in the way he was serving. It was in an interview published on June 18 in the LA Times.

Hand Okay

Speaking of “changes,” Pancho has made one with both his serve and forehand grips—mainly because of the injured right hand, which troubled him earlier in the year. “The hand is okay now—it was diagnosed as a sort of tumor, although it looked more like a stone bruise. It broke open and hemmoraged just before our Madison Square Garden debut, but now it looks just like a callous [sic] on the palm, and has healed over.

“But to favor it, I started shifting the weight of my racquet from the palm to my right forefinger. This gives me more guidance. I used to grip a racquet just like a hammer. Now my serve isn’t nearly as hard as it used to be, but it’s not because I’m decrepit,” grinned Pancho. “It’s because I’ve gotten wise: I’m going out for accuracy!”

Weak Return

“I used to try to make my points on service aces. Now I’m concentrating on getting weak returns of service. For instance, formerly if my first serve didn’t go in, the boys knew where to expect the second, because 90% of the time it went to the back of the court.

“Now I try to place my first service where it’ll hit my opponent’s weaknesses. For Rosewall, I put it wide on his forehand. For Segura and Trabert, close in on the body. I’ve lost 10 m.p.h. on speed, but I figure I gain on percentages.”​
 
Roscoe Tanner and Kevin Curren are vastly underrated servers imo.

Agreed. A shout out to the lefty Tony Roche. He may have been the first to use that short toss, rolling into the court slice serve like Tanner, Curren, and Goran had. Super hard to read and got on the returner very quickly. Roche was a master at burying his serve into the body of the returner.

The best server I have ever seen in Isner. I'm not sure he is ranked in the top 1000 on the ATP with an average serve. First and second serves are devastating and you cannot read either. Sampras is #2. Becker #3. Goran #4. Roddick #5. Gonzalez #6. After those, I don't have much of an opinion about order.
 
Agreed. A shout out to the lefty Tony Roche. He may have been the first to use that short toss, rolling into the court slice serve like Tanner, Curren, and Goran had. Super hard to read and got on the returner very quickly. Roche was a master at burying his serve into the body of the returner.

The best server I have ever seen in Isner. I'm not sure he is ranked in the top 1000 on the ATP with an average serve. First and second serves are devastating and you cannot read either. Sampras is #2. Becker #3. Goran #4. Roddick #5. Gonzalez #6. After those, I don't have much of an opinion about order.
I'm surprised Karlovic isn't somewhere on your list. I think he would be ranked even lower than top 1000 without his.
 
PimPim Joachim Johansson
John Isner
Roscoe Tanner
Pete Sampras
Kevin Curren
Wayne Arturs
Ivo Karlovic
Goran Ivanisevic
Pancho Gonzalez
Roger Federer
 
I'd put Roddick at #1, but I'd have Federer in the Top 20 for sure as well.

The thing with Federer's serve was the spin and down the line which he pulled out time and again when he needed it. Very underrated.

Roddick's serve in the 90s would have gotten him at least a handful of Slams on its own. The slower courts and Federer killed his career.
 
Isner and Karlovic are best servers in history, they are 1st tier servers

2nd tier servers-best in their generations and so on

Goran, Roddick,Johansson, Raonic-he has still years to proove but already one of best servers

honestly we can´t count servers from 30s or so on, simply game evolved so much, those guys back than played almost badminton comparing to this tennis

btw to Sampras and Roger who are very popular options here, Sampras was great server, but not even best in his era, he said himself if he had Goran´s serve or so, than Krajicek outserved him multipe times, just look at stats, Goran or Krajicek with similar-better numbers to Pete in service department yet, Pete was 14 slam champion logically better in most other aspects of the game so he couldn´t be better server than those guys logically

The same goes for Roger, his motion is great, his placement is great he is top 10 server and this stuff-no he isn´t even better than Tsonga for example, but Roger and Pete are somehow legends here and everyone including them in their top lists...

people are confusing service games with SERVE - to hold serve you need other things and Ivo or Isner are best because of this - and yes it´s also thanks to their height, but those guys when serve their best there is basically no chance to break their serves
 
SERVICE GAMES WON on HC from ATP site since 1990 so best servers in last 3 decades

I choose HC as most relevant surface with most maches on it, grass is to small surface with less matches and very serve dominated, and clay is opposite, to many rallies - so game outside serve influence numbers

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=4&s=3&y=0
it´s GAMES WON, TOTAl GAMES, % and MATCHES
1. Ivo Karlovic 3522 3854 91 292
2. Joachim Johansson 1014 1110 91 91
3. Milos Raonic 1781 1953 91 149
4. John Isner 3370 3725 90 267
5. Andy Roddick 6064 6707 90 542
6. Pete Sampras 5159 5753 90 445
7. Roger Federer 7779 8755 89 710
8. Wayne Arthurs 1859 2116 88 158
9. Richard Krajicek 3024 3452 88 277

You can see Karlovic is 1st on HC SERVICE GAMES WOn, yet he has worst game outside of serve from all best servers ever.

It´s simple if guy like Roger has same numbers like other guys it means other guys are better servers, because Roger has better groundgame- tennis skills outside of serve

So Roger being 7th and Pete 6th means they aren´t even top 10 servers, because their game was far more than just serve comparing to other big servers
 
Isner and Karlovic are best servers in history, they are 1st tier servers

2nd tier servers-best in their generations and so on

Goran, Roddick,Johansson, Raonic-he has still years to proove but already one of best servers

honestly we can´t count servers from 30s or so on, simply game evolved so much, those guys back than played almost badminton comparing to this tennis

btw to Sampras and Roger who are very popular options here, Sampras was great server, but not even best in his era, he said himself if he had Goran´s serve or so, than Krajicek outserved him multipe times, just look at stats, Goran or Krajicek with similar-better numbers to Pete in service department yet, Pete was 14 slam champion logically better in most other aspects of the game so he couldn´t be better server than those guys logically

The same goes for Roger, his motion is great, his placement is great he is top 10 server and this stuff-no he isn´t even better than Tsonga for example, but Roger and Pete are somehow legends here and everyone including them in their top lists...

people are confusing service games with SERVE - to hold serve you need other things and Ivo or Isner are best because of this - and yes it´s also thanks to their height, but those guys when serve their best there is basically no chance to break their serves
Really, didn't realize they hit the ball that hard back then considering the current record for a badminton smash is 493 Km/h!

My all time best server Roscoe Tanner - no competition.
Never seen Pancho Gonazles - but heard they changed the rules for the Pro game to 1 serve to stop him....that must have been pretty good.
 
Really, didn't realize they hit the ball that hard back then considering the current record for a badminton smash is 493 Km/h!

My all time best server Roscoe Tanner - no competition.
Never seen Pancho Gonazles - but heard they changed the rules for the Pro game to 1 serve to stop him....that must have been pretty good.

you know what i meant, that tennis evolved so much in last 2-3 decades that we can´t honestly compare tennis from 20s-30s to this modern tennis, most courts were grass and they were all the time on the net, just check some videos, hard to compare that era best servers do this era when now you can hit huge serves with new racquets and back than guys played with wooden stuff just hit it IN service box and go to th enet
 
you know what i meant, that tennis evolved so much in last 2-3 decades that we can´t honestly compare tennis from 20s-30s to this modern tennis, most courts were grass and they were all the time on the net, just check some videos, hard to compare that era best servers do this era when now you can hit huge serves with new racquets and back than guys played with wooden stuff just hit it IN service box and go to th enet

I think you have the wrong impression of past servers. There were lots of huge servers in the past.

Check this video out.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY

Vic Braden, the famous tennis coach who also does computer analysis of tennis strokes wrote that he felt that Gonzalez would serve regularly in the 140 mph range with the racquets of that time. And that time was the late 1990's.
 
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At the end of Kyrgios's career and the way his serve has been so far, definite top 10 potential

I'd say Sampras and Roddick are 1-2's for players that didn't rely solely on there serve.

With serve as the pure metric, I'd say Karlovic.
 
Vic Braden, the famous tennis coach who also does computer analysis of tennis strokes wrote that he felt that Gonzalez would serve regularly in the 140 mph range with the racquets of that time. And that time was the late 1990's.

Reminds me of one more worthy addition: John Sadri. I remember him riding a mid 130s mph serve with a wood racquet to the NCAA championship match in the late 70s. He faced Mac in that epic final, and I don't believe McEnroe ever broke him. If I recall correctly, each set went to a tie breaker and JP ended up with the title and turned pro. McEnroe said after that match something to the effect that he needed to improve his own serve. If you ever saw McEnroe as a college freshman and his second year as a pro, the speed of his serve improved dramatically.

Sadri was a big dude (Roddick-like build) with a good forehand and decent volley, but not much of a backhand. He had an ok career -- one Aussie final and a Wimbledon quarterfinal. He should be remembered for bombing that first serve as big as anyone in the wood racquet era.
 
Thanks, krosero. And yes, the info from prior decades would be most interesting.
Well okay let me give you some stats, just as a start. I've got the "Service Points Won" percentage from boxscores in 54 men's matches from 1902-56, with the vast majority coming from the Tilden period up to WW2.

As I said, these numbers have struck me as somewhat low compared to today's performances. Right now, though, I'm not going to stake my house on that; they look low, but for now let me just get some of these stats out there.

I noticed recently that Vines won 68.9% of his service points in a victory over Budge in Atlanta in 1939. I thought that was somewhat high for this period, which is what prompted me to look through the 54 men's matches for which I have that stat and see how many performances could top that number.

Of the 54 matches, only 10 performances were as good or better.

I've listed each of them below, with the loser's percentage also included.

I also added up the winner's percentage with the loser's to produce the final number in each entry, as a kind of index showing which matches were the most dominated by serving.

1919 US final
Forest Hills grass
Johnston 72.5%
Tilden 57.0%
129.5

1920 Pinehurst final
Outdoors
Tilden 69.9%
Voshell 66.4%
136.3

1922 Davis Cup
Forest Hills grass
Johnston 69.4%
Patterson 42.2%
111.6

1923 Davis Cup
Forest Hills grass
Tilden 71.2%
Hawkes 48.5%
119.7

1924 US semi
Forest Hills grass
Johnston 77.8%
Patterson 41.9%
119.7

1924 US final
Forest Hills grass
Tilden 69.8%
Johnston 52.2%
122.0

1930 US final
Forest Hills grass
Doeg 73.1%
Tilden 65.4%
138.5

1937 Davis Cup
Wimbledon grass
Budge 69.4%
Henkel 48.8%
118.2

1939 Atlanta
Indoors
Vines 68.9%
Budge 60.2%
129.1

1955 Davis Cup
Forest Hills grass
Hoad 71.6%
Trabert 60.0%
131.6

The big surprise here is to find Little Bill Johnston with the highest numbers. Johnston did not have a great serve so I wonder if those are instances of poor returning (combined perhaps with smart serving by Johnston). His victim in 1919 was Tilden, who at that time still had a weak backhand. His other victim was Patterson, who had an exceptionally weak backhand, according to a statement in one of Tilden's books.

Patterson’s serve was highly regarded and he had a cannonball; but he seems not to have served well at all in the two matches against Johnston, barely breaking 40% each time (indeed in the ’24 match he made 12 double-faults).

Leaving Johnston aside as perhaps a special case, there are only three performances above 70%, all by famously big servers: Tilden over Hawkes; Doeg over Tilden; Hoad over Trabert.

The highest combined index belongs to Doeg-Tilden, unsurprisingly. Those two were regarded as having two of the greatest serves of all time.

The next "serve-dominant" match is Tilden-Voshell, another combination of powerful servers (Voshell out-aced Tilden in that match and, per the NY Times, even “out-served” him).

Hoad-Trabert and Vines-Budge are also good combinations of great servers, and those matches were also "serve-dominant." Trabert and Budge were both defeated despite winning more than 60% of their own service points.
 
I also want to add that the more research I do on Vines -- and particularly in studying his matches and the available stats -- the more I see why he deserves his reputation as a great server. It's not just that he could bring the heat. He could do it reliably; and his serve was a weapon that almost never failed him. The rest of his game might be falling to pieces at times and he'd still be laying down big serves with regularity and reliability on the important points.

I'm not making a direct comparison with modern servers; there are too many problems in comparing eras. But Vines, in his own time, had a serve that was a great "standalone" shot (to use the standard that NonP set out in this thread), possibly the single greatest of that era.
 
1st major update in a loooooooooooooooooong time. Let's roll:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Gonzales
5. Krajicek
6. Arthurs
7. Roddick
8. Newcombe
9. Isner
10. McEnroe
11. Tanner
12. Becker
13. Philippoussis
14. Stich
15. Noah
16. Curren
17. Raonic
18. Rusedski
19. Federer

Honorary mentions:

McLoughlin, Maurice - perhaps the first distinguished cannonball serve in tennis history
Tilden - yet another storied cannonball serve, which he bolstered with spin and accuracy
Vines - by all accounts, the best and fastest serve of the pre-WWII era
Kramer - in addition to a formidable 1st serve, perhaps the best 2nd serve before Newcombe and Sampras
Denton - his unusual service motion notwithstanding, could bring enormous heat
Edberg - for his legendary kicker, arguably the best serve ever for S&V
Johansson, Joachim - Denton of the 2000s

Here are the names added to my list since the last update: Philippoussis, Raonic and Federer. Before I start slice serve ace has collected some new service stats since our last gabfest, the most important (for me) of which can be seen here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=8637529#post8637529

Explanations on these new names and switches of existing ones:

- As you can see, Karlovic, Goran and Arthurs are pretty much in a league of their own when it comes to getting free points on 1st serves that land in the box. Now you may remember that I had been hesitant to place Arthurs higher due to his unremarkable 1st-serve % which unlike with Goran was most likely not caused by a unique neuropathology, but considering his impressive freebie %, the respect expressed by his peers in arguably the most stacked era of big servers, and the fact that his 1st-serve % would almost certainly be higher today, I found it hard to keep him below Roddick so he stands now at #6. I'm not quite ready to move him above Krajicek yet, but don't be surprised to find him higher still in my subsequent updates.

- It seems that our surprising assortment of Isner's relatively low %s of unreturned serves wasn't just due to a small sample size. Now John IMO has the best 2nd serve since Sampras (yes, above Roddick) and most likely a fair % of his freebies came on his 2nd serves, but I think it fair to say he's probably below the Goran-Ivo-Wayne trio in pure % of unreturned serves. Still #12 does seem too low for a serve specialist of his caliber, hence his new ranking at #9, just below Newk but above Mac.

- Similarly you may recall my misgivings about Flipper's fairly high DF rate, but again very impressive numbers. Enough for me to put him above Stich, if not quite (yet) above Newk, Mac, Roscoe and Boris.

- Raonic is just getting started and though this thread (or my own list at any rate) concerns serves as stand-alone shots that doesn't mean I ignore the clutch aspect entirely (see Pete, Newk, Mac and Becker), and I'm frankly not bowled over by Milos' performance in big matches yet. With time he'll probably separate himself from near the bottom of the pack.

- Speaking of which Fed is now included at the end of the list. Now we know his serve is often overrated by his fans (among the top 5 ever is obviously going way overboard), but now I must admit even I might well have underrated this shot. I just posted these service (and return) stats of Pete's and Fed's on another thread (scroll down unless you're a sadist like me):

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=9178836#post9178836

As you can see, Fed has been clearly among the very best of his generation in holding serve for over a decade now. In fact the first year since '03 he fell out of the top 4 was '13, which is quite comparable to Pete's own run in the '90s, before he got back up to #3 last year.

Of course it's his whole package that has allowed such remarkable consistency, but that post of mine should make it clear that a player's overall game has a bigger impact on his return game than on his service game. And keep in mind there are plenty of names (and honorable mentions) to be added still, this isn't to say that Fed's serve is the 19th best as an isolated shot ever as we know it doesn't score as many freebies as those on this list and many others yet to be added/mentioned. But there's something to be said for such a reliable weapon that sets up points so well and makes the player's life so much easier, hence his inclusion.


Now there were some names floating around the time of my last update:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5959166#post5959166

Among the more recent guys, Ljubicic more or less relied on power and those stats posted by ssa are enough to tell me his serve isn't quite up there among the very best. I'm fairly confident Forget and Rosset are roughly in the same class, so they're also out. Ashe was likewise removed last time as well.

That leaves us with Smith and Zivojinovic. Our old friend Limpin once claimed that Smith's serve is better than Mac's and as good as Newk's, though I remember deciding against the latter placement. But where on the list? And what about Zivo?

And here are the remaining names we never got to (listed by order of birth):

Gerald Patterson (1895)
Yvon Petra (1916)
Geoff Brown (1924)
Bob Falkenburg (1926)
Mike Sangster (1940)
Frank Froehling (1942)
John Alexander (1951)
John Feaver (1952)
Scott Carnahan (1953)
Chip Hooper [1958]

Some of these names like Patterson and Falkenburg might be worth an honorary mention, and maybe more recent ones like Sangster as well. Anyway the longtime regulars should know the drill. And if you're new feel free to let us know what you think, preferably with stats, news reports and firsthand accounts if available. Grazie!

P.S. Forgot to give a shout-out to krosero's fine posts on Vines. Well worth reading.
 
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It's hilarious how low you rate Federer's serve.
Fed's serve is the 19th best as an isolated shot ever as we know it doesn't score as many freebies as those on this list and many others yet to be added/mentioned. But there's something to be said for such a reliable weapon that sets up points so well and makes the player's life so much easier, hence his inclusion.
Valiant effort, transparent nonetheless.
 
It's hilarious how low you rate Federer's serve.

Valiant effort, transparent nonetheless.

You obviously haven't been following this thread. You should calm down and read my entire post including the links, and revisit some of the older posts for that matter. I guarantee you this list has been devised more carefully and systematically than all the ones over at GPPD combined.
 
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Tbh, federer is serving like a monster these days .... there were phases when he did so before ( madrid 2009 to USO 2009 SF comes to mind ), but even that was below this level IIRC ..... I suppose he has to to compensate for his decline in other aspects ....

which makes djoker's returning in wimby 14 final really worthy of appreciation ...especially the way he kept himself calm in the 3rd set breaker when fed was going bonkers with his serve in the 3rd set ....

On a related note, fed's best tennis has almost always come when he has served well ( but not close to his very best as far as getting free points go), while being clutch and when his game is free-flowing ......... its very rare that he's served brilliantly and the rest of his game has been at his best
 
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As far as the list goes, I'd probably have Roddick and Isner over Arthurs & maybe Krajicek, depending on my mood ;)

I'm not sure if Newk should be that high either, if we're not placing a premium on clutchness ...

If we are , well, then fed should rocket up ;)
 
As far as the list goes, I'd probably have Roddick and Isner over Arthurs & maybe Krajicek, depending on my mood ;)

I'm not sure if Newk should be that high either, if we're not placing a premium on clutchness ...

If we are , well, then fed should rocket up ;)

It's very close among the top 4-9, and obviously slice serve ace's stats aren't perfect since 2nd-serve aces are excluded, but it's hard to ignore the fact that Arthurs is the only guy who can match Ivo and Goran in the 1st-serve freebie %s. But it's certainly far from crazy to switch these guys around.

Of course Gonzales and Newk are largely educated guesses. The reason why I put these guys up rather than just give them honorary mentions is because their name almost always pops up in these GSOAT discussions and Newk was reported to have the best 2nd serve between Kramer and Sampras. And Gonzales also has that mythology factor, not to mention his height.

I might well actually move Fed up in later updates, BTW. Wondering if Noah belongs in there now after all, now that I've excluded names like Ashe, Forget and Ljubicic.
 
It's hilarious how low you rate Federer's serve.

Valiant effort, transparent nonetheless.

I am reluctant to engage anybody on this forum about sacred cow Federer, but I have seen you make some reasoned posts before Russeljones.

I am curious, where you would place Fed. Looking at the people directly above him, you would obviously place him above Rusedski and Raonic. Were it possible to transplant the serve to another player, leaving the rest of the game unaffected, do you really think Fed would choose to have his serve over Raonics?? Do you think Fed's results would be WORSE with Raonic's serve???

I might put Fed in my top 10 list for this generation - but even that might be a bit of an honorary assignment - a nod to his accomplishments and mental success. I would be hard pressed to put his serve over serves like: Isner, Querry, Karlovic, Guccione, Groth, Raonic, Almagro, and many others.
 
It's very close among the top 4-9, and obviously slice serve ace's stats aren't perfect since 2nd-serve aces are excluded, but it's hard to ignore the fact that Arthurs is the only guy who can match Ivo and Goran in the 1st-serve freebie %s. But it's certainly far from crazy to switch these guys around.

Of course Gonzales and Newk are largely educated guesses. The reason why I put these guys up rather than just give them honorary mentions is because their name almost always pops up in these GSOAT discussions and Newk was reported to have the best 2nd serve between Kramer and Sampras. And Gonzales also has that mythology factor, not to mention his height.

I might well actually move Fed up in later updates, BTW. Wondering if Noah belongs in there now after all, now that I've excluded names like Ashe, Forget and Ljubicic.

As you know NonP, I think Noah had one of the most beautiful serve motions of all time. An essentially flawless motion (Arthur Ashe's description), with great economy, rhythm, flow...and amazing power. His slice serve is absolutely one of the greatest of all time. BUT.....overall....I'm not sure he would belong this high on the list.

If I were to nitpick at him:

He threw the ball fairly far forward (and later in his career way to the right)....this gave him a beautiful lean, and allowed him to hit through the ball for absolutely blinding pace. I believe his fastest serves may have been up there with a Roddick/Rusedski....but it also made his serves fairly low margin...even being 6'4. That, along with an occasional tendency to drop his head made his flat serve percentage not so good as the best.

His second serve, was not particularly outstanding (the occasional great slice not withstanding).

To me...Noah might end up being more like an honorable mention: great pace, oustanding motion, great flat, amazing slice, not as consistently an outright weapon as often as the greatest (this was also partly due to strategy...he used a traditional SV strategy often.....3/4 pace spin to set up the net attack).

On a side note, a player who reminded me of Noah both in terms of motion, and in terms of effectiveness, was 1989 David Wheaton. Wheaton's motion was also beautiful in that year (he changed it right after), brilliant, not quite as graceful as Noah's though).
 
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I am reluctant to engage anybody on this forum about sacred cow Federer, but I have seen you make some reasoned posts before Russeljones.

I am curious, where you would place Fed. Looking at the people directly above him, you would obviously place him above Rusedski and Raonic. Were it possible to transplant the serve to another player, leaving the rest of the game unaffected, do you really think Fed would choose to have his serve over Raonics?? Do you think Fed's results would be WORSE with Raonic's serve???

I might put Fed in my top 10 list for this generation - but even that might be a bit of an honorary assignment - a nod to his accomplishments and mental success. I would be hard pressed to put his serve over serves like: Isner, Querry, Karlovic, Guccione, Groth, Raonic, Almagro, and many others.

To begin with, I will always base my analysis on what I have observed. Having been an avid supporter of Sampras, Ivanisevic and Federer, I can say that there are things the stats won't tell us (as if you all don't know this). The clutch serving of Pete and Roger set them apart for me. It is unfortunate that a lot of the debates transpiring on this site place an exaggerated weight on recent observations and I feel Federer is one of the biggest victims of this. I am constantly reading about what a liability has backhand is, how poor his shot selection is, what absurd approach shots he plays, how he isn't even in the top 5 for overhead smashes etc. etc. I call this noise. For the people who've watched tennis for more than 20 years, I think the perspective should be clearer. The individual shot should be analyzed in its entirety not excluding the circumstances when it was called on to deliver. In Pete and Federer's case this might seem an unfair advantage, but I feel it is a very pertinent consideration. In this context, your list is an insult to my intelligence.
 
As you know NonP, I think Noah had one of the most beautiful serve motions of all time. An essentially flawless motion (Arthur Ashe's description), with great economy, rhythm, flow...and amazing power. His slice serve is absolutely one of the greatest of all time. BUT.....overall....I'm not sure he would belong this high on the list.

If I were to nitpick at him:

He threw the ball fairly far forward (and later in his career way to the right)....this gave him a beautiful lean, and allowed him to hit through the ball for absolutely blinding pace. I believe his fastest serves may have been up there with a Roddick/Rusedski....but it also made his serves fairly low margin...even being 6'4. That, along with an occasional tendency to drop his head made his flat serve percentage not so good as the best.

His second serve, was not particularly outstanding (the occasional great slice not withstanding).

To me...Noah might end up being more like an honorable mention: great pace, oustanding motion, great flat, amazing slice, not as consistently an outright weapon as often as the greatest (this was also partly due to strategy...he used a traditional SV strategy often.....3/4 pace spin to set up the net attack).

On a side note, a player who reminded me of Noah both in terms of motion, and in terms of effectiveness, was 1989 David Wheaton. Wheaton's motion was also beautiful in that year (he changed it right after), brilliant, not quite as graceful as Noah's though).

That's all very fair. I concede that my bias might have gotten the better of me here... because Noah's service motion is pretty much the only one I might take over Pete's!!! (Since we're nitpicking my only minor reservation about Pete's motion is that nearly impossible and almost painful-looking shoulder bend of his, which makes it slightly less graceful than it could be.)

But if Noah's out what do you say about Zivo? Maybe we could replace Yannick with Bobo? Also if you've got anything about older guys like Smith and Alexander I'd love to hear it.
 
To begin with, I will always base my analysis on what I have observed. Having been an avid supporter of Sampras, Ivanisevic and Federer, I can say that there are things the stats won't tell us (as if you all don't know this). The clutch serving of Pete and Roger set them apart for me. It is unfortunate that a lot of the debates transpiring on this site place an exaggerated weight on recent observations and I feel Federer is one of the biggest victims of this. I am constantly reading about what a liability has backhand is, how poor his shot selection is, what absurd approach shots he plays, how he isn't even in the top 5 for overhead smashes etc. etc. I call this noise. For the people who've watched tennis for more than 20 years, I think the perspective should be clearer. The individual shot should be analyzed in its entirety not excluding the circumstances when it was called on to deliver. In Pete and Federer's case this might seem an unfair advantage, but I feel it is a very pertinent consideration. In this context, your list is an insult to my intelligence.

As abmk just pointed out, Fed actually has been serving as well as ever lately, so if anything the recency factor would favor him more, not less.

Again if you haven't already I suggest you go back and read some of the earlier posts, not just by me but by many other fine contributors. Some of these names went months if not years before being added or moving around, that's how careful I've been with these rankings so far. And I'm really trying to be as objective as possible. Like you I'm a big Sampras fan myself (in fact bigger than you, I'm pretty sure), but even so I'd initially placed him at #4 despite the majority of posters parroting the common wisdom that he's in fact the greatest ever. It was only after I realized I underestimated the value of the 2nd serve that I decided to move him up a notch. That's just one example of the diligent approach I've taken towards this topic.

K, gotta go. Hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding.
 
As abmk just pointed out, Fed actually has been serving as well as ever lately, so if anything the recency factor would favor him more, not less.

Again if you haven't already I suggest you go back and read some of the earlier posts, not just by me but by many other fine contributors. Some of these names went months if not years before being added or moving around, that's how careful I've been with these rankings so far. And I'm really trying to be as objective as possible. Like you I'm a big Sampras fan myself (in fact bigger than you, I'm pretty sure), but even so I'd initially placed him at #4 despite the majority of posters parroting the common wisdom that he's in fact the greatest ever. It was only after I realized I underestimated the value of the 2nd serve that I decided to move him up a notch. That's just one example of the diligent approach I've taken towards this topic.

K, gotta go. Hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding.

You're telling someone you're a bigger fan of an athlete than they are. And you re-evaluated your opinion of Sampras's serve after realizing you underestimated the value of the 2nd serve. And I have to take your opinion seriously? Something has to give.
 
19th seems generous for Federer but I haven't looked into all the great servers from past eras in depth. Is Federer even a top-5 server from his own era? There have been many excellent servers on tour during Federer's playing days...

Just as a basic exercise without deep analysis, if I assume that Federer is about the 5th best server from his "time", and that there are 10 different "times", wouldn't that place Federer at about 50th?
 
19th seems generous for Federer but I haven't looked into all the great servers from past eras in depth. Is Federer even a top-5 server from his own era? There have been many excellent servers on tour during Federer's playing days...

Just as a basic exercise without deep analysis, if I assume that Federer is about the 5th best server from his "time", and that there are 10 different "times", wouldn't that place Federer at about 50th?

As a stand alone shot I'd say not. An interesting question, is being clutch with the serve an attribute of the serve or is it mental strength - or is it both?

Obviously this can be attached to any shot.
 
As a stand alone shot I'd say not. An interesting question, is being clutch with the serve an attribute of the serve or is it mental strength - or is it both?

Obviously this can be attached to any shot.

I've thought about this many times. Everything is largely interlinked. It's very hard to produce a proper reductionist view of tennis—some might say it's disingenuous.

We know that Del Potro's forehand is awesome but about when he plays the top guns: when they get into pure forehand exchanges, Del Potro clearly bests Djokovic and competes well with Federer, but they end up having what seems like more success overall with the stroke simply because they are way better movers and can put themselves in a position to actually use their weapon with greater frequency and more time.
 
19th seems generous for Federer but I haven't looked into all the great servers from past eras in depth. Is Federer even a top-5 server from his own era? There have been many excellent servers on tour during Federer's playing days...

Just as a basic exercise without deep analysis, if I assume that Federer is about the 5th best server from his "time", and that there are 10 different "times", wouldn't that place Federer at about 50th?

Of course Fed's serve as a stand-alone shot isn't among the very best in terms of freebies. In case you haven't noticed the one obscure service stat that we've been posting on this thread (largely thanks to slice serve ace, krosero and Moose) is % of unreturned serves, which really tells a more complete story than the usual # of aces (especially for guys like Sampras, who's often up there with Goran, Karlovic and all these other guys despite his typically lower ace counts), and while Fed isn't half bad himself he's usually behind the top dogs.

But then Fed and of course Pete face the top players more often, which does hurt your %s of service games won and presumably your %s of freebies too. So even this stat doesn't allow a strict across-the-board comparison even if we're to make a rough adjustment for technological and strategic variance. (In case you don't know already today's players are probably winning a higher % of service games than ever, and the fact that a Sampras, Mac or Becker S&Ved more makes these comparisons even trickier.) And of course there's the issue of coming up with the goods on big points, on the grandest stage, against the best opponents--the whole clutch factor which really is impossible to measure and must be observed, which in turn leads to subjective analysis that cannot be undertaken without one's inevitable personal bias.

I can't say I've gotten this balance right and I'm not sure anyone ever can, but my posting history should provide ample evidence that I've studied and thought about this as carefully as just about anyone (with all due respect to the aforementioned guys who've put in the real work).
 
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No doubt—you've thought about it very hard indeed, and I respect your efforts.

For the reasons you and NatF have stated, it's generally very hard to come up with these sorts of lists, even with stacks of statistics.

One person could argue that Federer should be in the top-ten, and another no higher than top-fifty, and they could both present very reasonable arguments.

The holistic nature of tennis provides a lot of noise when determining who has the best serve.
 
No doubt—you've thought about it very hard indeed, and I respect your efforts.

For the reasons you and NatF have stated, it's generally very hard to come up with these sorts of lists, even with stacks of statistics.

One person could argue that Federer should be in the top-ten, and another no higher than top-fifty, and they could both present very reasonable arguments.

The holistic nature of tennis provides a lot of noise when determining who has the best serve.

Thanks. For me the first two places (Goran and Ivo) are all but secure, at least if we're talking about the last 30 years or so, though yes, one could easily argue for the mental aspect being a bigger factor and for higher rankings for guys like Pete, Fed, Mac and Becker who had to produce on the biggest stages more often than the other candidates.

And truth be told we're almost splitting hairs anyway. Any player with a mediocre serve would love to have one of these guys' serves instead.

K, really gotta get ready. Nice talking to y'all.
 
1st major update in a loooooooooooooooooong time. Let's roll:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Gonzales
5. Krajicek
6. Arthurs
7. Roddick
8. Newcombe
9. Isner
10. McEnroe
11. Tanner
12. Becker
13. Philippoussis
14. Stich
15. Noah
16. Curren
17. Raonic
18. Rusedski
19. Federer

Honorary mentions:

McLoughlin, Maurice - perhaps the first distinguished cannonball serve in tennis history
Tilden - yet another storied cannonball serve, which he bolstered with spin and accuracy
Vines - by all accounts, the best and fastest serve of the pre-WWII era
Kramer - in addition to a formidable 1st serve, perhaps the best 2nd serve before Newcombe and Sampras
Denton - his unusual service motion notwithstanding, could bring enormous heat
Edberg - for his legendary kicker, arguably the best serve ever for S&V
Johansson, Joachim - Denton of the 2000s

Here are the names added to my list since the last update: Philippoussis, Raonic and Federer. Before I start slice serve ace has collected some new service stats since our last gabfest, the most important (for me) of which can be seen here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=8637529#post8637529

Explanations on these new names and switches of existing ones:

- As you can see, Karlovic, Goran and Arthurs are pretty much in a league of their own when it comes to getting free points on 1st serves that land in the box. Now you may remember that I had been hesitant to place Arthurs higher due to his unremarkable 1st-serve % which unlike with Goran was most likely not caused by a unique neuropathology, but considering his impressive freebie %, the respect expressed by his peers in arguably the most stacked era of big servers, and the fact that his 1st-serve % would almost certainly be higher today, I found it hard to keep him below Roddick so he stands now at #6. I'm not quite ready to move him above Krajicek yet, but don't be surprised to find him higher still in my subsequent updates.

- It seems that our surprising assortment of Isner's relatively low %s of unreturned serves wasn't just due to a small sample size. Now John IMO has the best 2nd serve since Sampras (yes, above Roddick) and most likely a fair % of his freebies came on his 2nd serves, but I think it fair to say he's probably below the Goran-Ivo-Wayne trio in pure % of unreturned serves. Still #12 does seem too low for a serve specialist of his caliber, hence his new ranking at #9, just below Newk but above Mac.

- Similarly you may recall my misgivings about Flipper's fairly high DF rate, but again very impressive numbers. Enough for me to put him above Stich, if not quite (yet) above Newk, Mac, Roscoe and Boris.

- Raonic is just getting started and though this thread (or my own list at any rate) concerns serves as stand-alone shots that doesn't mean I ignore the clutch aspect entirely (see Pete, Newk, Mac and Becker), and I'm frankly not bowled over by Milos' performance in big matches yet. With time he'll probably separate himself from near the bottom of the pack.

- Speaking of which Fed is now included at the end of the list. Now we know his serve is often overrated by his fans (among the top 5 ever is obviously going way overboard), but now I must admit even I might well have underrated this shot. I just posted these service (and return) stats of Pete's and Fed's on another thread (scroll down unless you're a sadist like me):

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=9178836#post9178836

As you can see, Fed has been clearly among the very best of his generation in holding serve for over a decade now. In fact the first year since '03 he fell out of the top 4 was '13, which is quite comparable to Pete's own run in the '90s, before he got back up to #3 last year.

Of course it's his whole package that has allowed such remarkable consistency, but that post of mine should make it clear that a player's overall game has a bigger impact on his return game than on his service game. And keep in mind there are plenty of names (and honorable mentions) to be added still, this isn't to say that Fed's serve is the 19th best as an isolated shot ever as we know it doesn't score as many freebies as those on this list and many others yet to be added/mentioned. But there's something to be said for such a reliable weapon that sets up points so well and makes the player's life so much easier, hence his inclusion.


Now there were some names floating around the time of my last update:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5959166#post5959166

Among the more recent guys, Ljubicic more or less relied on power and those stats posted by ssa are enough to tell me his serve isn't quite up there among the very best. I'm fairly confident Forget and Rosset are roughly in the same class, so they're also out. Ashe was likewise removed last time as well.

That leaves us with Smith and Zivojinovic. Our old friend Limpin once claimed that Smith's serve is better than Mac's and as good as Newk's, though I remember deciding against the latter placement. But where on the list? And what about Zivo?

And here are the remaining names we never got to (listed by order of birth):

Gerald Patterson (1895)
Yvon Petra (1916)
Geoff Brown (1924)
Bob Falkenburg (1926)
Mike Sangster (1940)
Frank Froehling (1942)
John Alexander (1951)
John Feaver (1952)
Scott Carnahan (1953)
Chip Hooper [1958]

Some of these names like Patterson and Falkenburg might be worth an honorary mention, and maybe more recent ones like Sangster as well. Anyway the longtime regulars should know the drill. And if you're new feel free to let us know what you think, preferably with stats, news reports and firsthand accounts if available. Grazie!

P.S. Forgot to give a shout-out to krosero's fine posts on Vines. Well worth reading.

No doubt—you've thought about it very hard indeed, and I respect your efforts.

For the reasons you and NatF have stated, it's generally very hard to come up with these sorts of lists, even with stacks of statistics.

One person could argue that Federer should be in the top-ten, and another no higher than top-fifty, and they could both present very reasonable arguments.

The holistic nature of tennis provides a lot of noise when determining who has the best serve.

Thanks. For me the first two places (Goran and Ivo) are all but secure, at least if we're talking about the last 30 years or so, though yes, one could easily argue for the mental aspect being a bigger factor and for higher rankings for guys like Pete, Fed, Mac and Becker who had to produce on the biggest stages more often than the other candidates.

And truth be told we're almost splitting hairs anyway. Any player with a mediocre serve would love to have one of these guys' serves instead.

K, really gotta get ready. Nice talking to y'all.

I'm not going to necessary argue (at least too much) about the spots you have. However as much as I love Goran's serve and the player I have to add that Sampras did lead the ATP most years in the 1990's in percentage of holding serve and was always among the leaders in that category. Goran's first serve is very possibly the greatest of all time although I would still pick Pancho Gonzalez's first serve as the greatest ever. Too many have called it the best ever. As I've written before Vic Braden, who had done computer analysis on serve thought Gonzalez's serve in this day and age would regularly be in the 140 mph. However it's not only that, he wrote that Gonzalez would serve so smoothly and with such little strain on his body that he could serve tremendously powerfully even late in the match! Arthur Ashe said that even in his forties Gonzalez had the best serve in tennis.

Anyway I thought Goran threw away too many service games because his head was not into playing. That has to count against him. Also I do believe Sampras had the superior second serve.

Now I know by the nature of tennis we can argue Sampras had better overall tools to hold serve however I do believe Sampras' overall serve was a little better. And clearly by the stats, Sampras' overall service game is superior because he held serve more often.

I like the list but if you have Newcombe at number eight, then Jack Kramer should be much higher because Kramer was just superior to Newcombe in overall serving and comparable to Gonzalez.

My top few would be Gonzalez, Kramer, Goran, Sampras and we could argue others later.

Karolovic and Isner are reasonable choices however.
 
My list

1. Roddick
2. Ivanisevic
3. Gonzales
4. Tanner
5. Curren
6. Sampras
7. Karlovic
8. Krajicek
9. Isner
10. Newcombe
 
Here are the names added to my list since the last update: Philippoussis, Raonic and Federer. Before I start slice serve ace has collected some new service stats since our last gabfest, the most important (for me) of which can be seen here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...29#post8637529


Hi NonP

that is an interesting new stat. I can try to calculate it for some of our older matches(we did separate unret 1st & 2nd serves for many of them, so it shouldn't be hard to see % of 1st serves that were unreturned)

I'm fairly confident Forget and Rosset are roughly in the same class,

I don't think we have any stats on these 2 players. I just got copies of Forget's win over Sampras at the '91 Paris Indoors, will try to get to that sometime.

But if Noah's out what do you say about Zivo? Maybe we could replace Yannick with Bobo?

I've always loved Noah's motion, but his numbers aren't that great in our (small) sample. And those matches were on clay(his best surface), where you wouldn't expect a high % of unret serves.

here are some stats I haven't posted of a Noah match not on clay. Noah d Anger 1986 WCT Finals 7-5, 6-4, 6-2

Noah didn't face a break point. had 10 aces.

32 of 82 serves were unreturned(39%)
He won 79% of 1st serves
72% of 2nd serves

25 of his 53 1st serves were unreturned(47%)
7 of his 29 2nd serves were unreturned(24%)



As for Bobo, I've done stats for 4 of his matches(they are all in the thread), but 3 were losses, so that may not be fair in showing how devastating his serve could be. Still his numbers were pretty good in all 4 matches.

don't know if you saw this thread, but his streak on 1st serve (in a loss) ranks pretty high among all the '80s matches mentioned http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=420891

I was very impressed by his numbers vs Connors at '87 Wimbledon - 25 aces, no doubles. Not sure if I've seen that great a ratio in an 80s match before. and he lost that match in straight sets(I think it may have been one of the best matches Connors ever played actually) I wonder what sort of numbers Bobo had vs Doohan in the previous round, unret serves, 1st serve pts won etc.

Also if you've got anything about older guys like Smith and Alexander I'd love to hear it.

I did stats on Alexander's match vs Mac at '79 Davis Cup(on grass), a 97 62 97 loss. I think I posted Mac's unret% earlier in thread, but nothing on Alexander.

here are some stats I did on a Curren match at '83 Wimbledon(where he beat Connors)

Curren d Harmon 6-4, 7-5, 6-2

Curren didn't face a break point. had 9 aces

37 of 74 serves were unreturned (50%)
He won 93% of 1st serves
67% of 2nd serves

26 of his 44 1st serves were unreturned(59%)
11 of his 30 2nd serves were unreturned(37%)

more to come
 
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I'm not going to necessary argue (at least too much) about the spots you have. However as much as I love Goran's serve and the player I have to add that Sampras did lead the ATP most years in the 1990's in percentage of holding serve and was always among the leaders in that category. Goran's first serve is very possibly the greatest of all time although I would still pick Pancho Gonzalez's first serve as the greatest ever. Too many have called it the best ever. As I've written before Vic Braden, who had done computer analysis on serve thought Gonzalez's serve in this day and age would regularly be in the 140 mph. However it's not only that, he wrote that Gonzalez would serve so smoothly and with such little strain on his body that he could serve tremendously powerfully even late in the match! Arthur Ashe said that even in his forties Gonzalez had the best serve in tennis.

Anyway I thought Goran threw away too many service games because his head was not into playing. That has to count against him. Also I do believe Sampras had the superior second serve.

Now I know by the nature of tennis we can argue Sampras had better overall tools to hold serve however I do believe Sampras' overall serve was a little better. And clearly by the stats, Sampras' overall service game is superior because he held serve more often.

I like the list but if you have Newcombe at number eight, then Jack Kramer should be much higher because Kramer was just superior to Newcombe in overall serving and comparable to Gonzalez.

My top few would be Gonzalez, Kramer, Goran, Sampras and we could argue others later.

Karolovic and Isner are reasonable choices however.

I sense a little deja vu. :) Seriously, we've talked about this before on this very thread. Before I start just a reminder that I'm trying to rank these serves as stand-alone shots, so while I don't dismiss the clutch factor wholesale I do attribute it more to the player's mental strength than to his mechanics.

As for the % of service games won here's my previous post on the Pete-Goran comparison:

pc1, yes, I'm aware of those stats, which speak volumes about Sampras' and Goran's respective service game. But I don't think they tell the whole story about their serves per se. As you know, Goran was a talented headcase who could beat anyone but also lose to anyone, and his service stats, like the rest of his other stats, varied wildly. This is an important point when we're talking about % of service games won, because when you lose a game, that game is gone forever. It's not as easy to make up for this % as you can, say, improve the average # of aces.

Consider the following example. Say you play a particularly horrendous match one day and an equally great one the next (let's assume both are best-of-3 matches). In the first match you win only 2 games and serve only 4 aces, while in the second you win all your service games and hit a whopping 30 aces. In this case, your # of aces per match is an impressive 17, but your % of service games won remains dismal despite that 2nd "make-up" game. The same would be true of your 1st-serve %, if not to the same degree.

Now I know this is an extreme example, but the thing is, it wasn't unusual for Goran's game--not just his serving, mind you--to fluctuate like that. That's why he has that unfortunate if not wholly undeserved reputation for being a choker. Even so, when you look at his yearly stats overall you can see that Goran in his prime was consistent over the entire year. The % of service games won deserves special consideration because of that make-up factor I just pointed out.

And when I say Goran fluctuated I do mean it. A good example is his '98 Wimby final against Pete, which I revisited just a couple months ago. You know, that one where he committed an infamous 20 DFs. Now one would think quite a few of those DFs came during the 2 TBs they played, especially considering that the 2nd-set TB went 11-9. Well, guess what, Goran actually served only 1 DF during the entire two TBs, meaning when the stakes were highest and he would've presumably felt the most pressure he actually (mostly) came through. Goran was really unpredictable like that, which is why his %s of service games won can be rather misleading. I tell you, if you polled any of the guys who played both Goran and Pete and asked them whose serve they'd like to have or feared more I'd bet a small fortune that the vast majority of them would pick Goran, regardless of what the stats say. Goran would go through these spells where he'd be literally unplayable, and however formidable guys like Pete and Roddick were on serve they rarely reached such an exalted level. The only one I can think of that can challenge Goran here is Karlovic and maybe Arthurs, and the numbers more or less back up my impressions, hence the current rankings.

And here's what en... ahem, I mean what the dearly departed Datacipher once said about Braden on Gonzales' serve:

Hey NonP, I have met Braden, received coaching from him, and talked quite ab it about tennis, but I have never talked specifically about Pancho's speed.

Having said that, in Tennis 2000, he says that he has no doubt Pancho would "serve in the 140mph zone"...he doesn't actually say "regularly". Having said that, I don't even have a huge problem with him if had said it (even though, as I'm sure you can tell, I hate tennis myths and misrepresentations), because "regularly" has so much wiggle-room. Many of the biggest servers have had quite a range in their top ends...so I've been heard to tell people that Roddick regularly hits 140mph....even though, he has gone months without doing so....yet in other conditions, at other times in his career, on other radars, he's done it in multiple matches in a row...or multiple times per match. I might say that Rusedksi "regularly" hit in the 130's...even though, he to played many a match where he didn't get out of the 120's(albeit in a slightly different radar era).

But I do agree with you, that my guess is that Pancho would NOT serve in the 140's any more regularly than Roddick....though perhaps I shouldn't say that because I do think he'd hit his top end speeds much more regularly than the very up-and-down Roddick. But, I don't think he'd beat Roddick's top end, I suspect his TOP end would be around 140mph...but that he might well "regularly" (there it is again...perhaps I should say in the majority of his matches hit multiple serves) into the 130's.

So, I don't really know what Braden would say, it is possible he might think Pancho would often hit the high numbers because he loved the Gonzalez motion so much, and I think it's often the most relaxed, the most grooved motions that regularly hit their top end. eg. Sampras. Hate to quote Carillo (as I don't think she's an authority on this), but I remember even at the 1990 USO, when Trabert and Sommerall were noting that Sampras wasn't the only player clocking near 120mph (heh, radar!), Carillo said wisely "yeah, but Sampras does it regularly...he has such a great relaxed motion, and in that motion there's an awful lot of natural power...it's not a stretch for him to hit 120..."

It often seems to be the guys who are perhaps a bit more effortful who go up and down more in top mph eg. Roddick, Courier, Rusedski etc...certainly it seems intuitive that their timing, muscular effort, tightness etc, may be more variable, and prone to breakdown and inefficiency.

Also, while Gonzales was tall he wasn't a 6'3"+ giant like most of the guys near the very top of my list. I suppose Goran may be something of an exception at 6'4", but then Pancho didn't have his lefty spin, low toss and lightning-fast motion, either. So I think Gonzales at #4 is fair, which is pretty much interchangeable with Pete at #3.

And I know Kramer had a top-notch serve himself, but was it really considered as good as Pancho's or Vines'? I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means but I don't think Jack is usually spoken of in the same breath as these two (again purely talking about their serves here).
 
Hi NonP

that is an interesting new stat. I can try to calculate it for some of our older matches(we did separate unret 1st & 2nd serves for many of them, so it shouldn't be hard to see % of 1st serves that were unreturned)

Hi Moose, yes feel free to run wild with the numbers. I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but those %s aren't perfect not only because 2nd-serve aces are excluded, but also because the # of aces per match saw a significant uptick from the early to the late '90s. And here I'm not just talking about the same small, incremental increases we've seen over recent years largely due to the higher spin (and thus higher serve %s) afforded by today's equipment, but rather something more drastic. Cases in point: in '91 even Goran and Krajicek had just 8.8 and 8.7 aces per match respectively (trust me, I had to look at some of the match stats to make sure this wasn't a simple data-entry error by the ATP), as opposed to 14.8 and 14.6 each in '98. And while we'd prefer ace % per serve point (and of course unreturned-serve % would be better still) I think this increase is too significant to be attributed to simple variance in # of serve points between individual matches. Whether or how much this had to do with technology, strategy or mentality is hard to say, but given what we know it's a safe bet that the guys who were already top players in the early '90s like Goran, Krajicek and of course Pete would be posting even higher serve %s across the board (1st serve, service games won, serve points as aces, you name it) had they come into age later at the same time as, say, Karlovic or Isner.

Also someone like Krajicek deserves even further special consideration, because as you know the guy was constantly in and out of the game due to injuries, which couldn't have helped his serve. That's why I was reluctant to put Arthurs above him despite slice serve ace's new highly telling stats. I suspect Richard's freebie % might have been even higher still with better health. Maybe not quite in the Ivo-Wayne-Goran territory, but probably closer.

Of course that's not to discourage you from your stat gathering. Plug away!!!

I don't think we have any stats on these 2 players. I just got copies of Forget's win over Sampras at the '91 Paris Indoors, will try to get to that sometime.

Pure eye tests and guesswork on my part. :) Of course I'd be most interested to see any stats for Forget. Thanks a bunch in advance.

I've always loved Noah's motion, but his numbers aren't that great in our (small) sample. And those matches were on clay(his best surface), where you wouldn't expect a high % of unret serves.

here are some stats I haven't posted of a Noah match not on clay. Noah d Anger 1986 WCT Finals 7-5, 6-4, 6-2

Noah didn't face a break point. had 10 aces.

32 of 82 serves were unreturned(39%)
He won 79% of 1st serves
72% of 2nd serves

25 of his 53 1st serves were unreturned(47%)
7 of his 29 2nd serves were unreturned(24%)



As for Bobo, I've done stats for 4 of his matches(they are all in the thread), but 3 were losses, so that may not be fair in showing how devastating his serve could be. Still his numbers were pretty good in all 4 matches.

don't know if you saw this thread, but his streak on 1st serve (in a loss) ranks pretty high among all the '80s matches mentioned http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=420891

I was very impressed by his numbers vs Connors at '87 Wimbledon - 25 aces, no doubles. Not sure if I've seen that great a ratio in an 80s match before. and he lost that match in straight sets(I think it may have been one of the best matches Connors ever played actually) I wonder what sort of numbers Bobo had vs Doohan in the previous round, unret serves, 1st serve pts won etc.

Yes, I've seen that thread and the other 4 Bobo stats. I try to keep track of everything that happens here, and I know I've been saying this for quite but I will get all the unreturned-serve %s together in a readable form eventually.

And I might drop Noah down a notch or two, or maybe replace him with Bobo altogether and just give him an honorary mention. We'll see.

I did stats on Alexander's match vs Mac at '79 Davis Cup(on grass), a 97 62 97 loss. I think I posted Mac's unret% earlier in thread, but nothing on Alexander.

here are some stats I did on a Curren match at '83 Wimbledon(where he beat Connors)

Curren d Harmon 6-4, 7-5, 6-2

Curren didn't face a break point. had 9 aces

37 of 74 serves were unreturned (50%)
He won 93% of 1st serves
67% of 2nd serves

26 of his 44 1st serves were unreturned(59%)
11 of his 30 2nd serves were unreturned(37%)

more to come

Curren's best numbers are truly impressive. As you know 50% is a pretty rare threshold even now, back then I doubt even the best servers reached it more than a few times for a whole year. Maybe I need to move him up a little more.

Not sure you didn't have Alexander's % or just didn't bother, but if you have that or other stats for Alex do feel free to post. Ditto Sadri, whose name of course has come up before. Thanks again.
 
I sense a little deja vu. :) Seriously, we've talked about this before on this very thread. Before I start just a reminder that I'm trying to rank these serves as stand-alone shots, so while I don't dismiss the clutch factor wholesale I do attribute it more to the player's mental strength than to his mechanics.

As for the % of service games won here's my previous post on the Pete-Goran comparison:



And when I say Goran fluctuated I do mean it. A good example is his '98 Wimby final against Pete, which I revisited just a couple months ago. You know, that one where he committed an infamous 20 DFs. Now one would think quite a few of those DFs came during the 2 TBs they played, especially considering that the 2nd-set TB went 11-9. Well, guess what, Goran actually served only 1 DF during the entire two TBs, meaning when the stakes were highest and he would've presumably felt the most pressure he actually (mostly) came through. Goran was really unpredictable like that, which is why his %s of service games won can be rather misleading. I tell you, if you polled any of the guys who played both Goran and Pete and asked them whose serve they'd like to have or feared more I'd bet a small fortune that the vast majority of them would pick Goran, regardless of what the stats say. Goran would go through these spells where he'd be literally unplayable, and however formidable guys like Pete and Roddick were on serve they rarely reached such an exalted level. The only one I can think of that can challenge Goran here is Karlovic and maybe Arthurs, and the numbers more or less back up my impressions, hence the current rankings.

And here's what en... ahem, I mean what the dearly departed Datacipher once said about Braden on Gonzales' serve:



Also, while Gonzales was tall he wasn't a 6'3"+ giant like most of the guys near the very top of my list. I suppose Goran may be something of an exception at 6'4", but then Pancho didn't have his lefty spin, low toss and lightning-fast motion, either. So I think Gonzales at #4 is fair, which is pretty much interchangeable with Pete at #3.

And I know Kramer had a top-notch serve himself, but was it really considered as good as Pancho's or Vines'? I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means but I don't think Jack is usually spoken of in the same breath as these two (again purely talking about their serves here).

Gonzalez was 6'3 and 1/2 inches tall my friend. And I got that information from his family.

Kramer is generally spoken of in the same breath as Vines and Gonzalez over the years. We tend to forget about Kramer nowadays because of the emphasis on majors won and that he wasn't a television commentator in the last few decades.
 
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Gonzalez was 6'3 and 1/2 inches tall my friend. And I got that information from his family.

Kramer is generally spoken of in the same breath as Vines and Gonzalez over the years. We tend to forget about Kramer nowadays because of the emphasis on majors won and that he wasn't a television commentator in the last few decades.

I believe you on Gonzales' height, but as I noted Goran was actually taller still (if just barely) at 6'4". Again my point was that many of these guys were/are even taller than these two, and that's usually hard to offset unless you've got an exceptional strength or more such as Pete's unusually high topspin component (as measured by Yandell) and his famously potent 2nd serve. Gonzales' 1st serve may well be up there with anyone's but I haven't come across many accounts that tout his 2nd serve that I've seen with Kramer (or Newk for that matter). And Segura in a recent interview rated Pete's serve mechanics as the best he'd seen, which presumably would've taken into account Gonzales'.

Also you might recall that I've given Vines, Kramer and the other old-timers honorable mentions (though I'm thinking about adding Vines to the list) not necessarily because I consider their serves inferior but because the lack of footage and the significant changes in serve technique and strategy over the years make it almost impossible to compare them to the more recent ones. It's really to Gonzales' great credit that I've ranked him as high as #4 of all time despite these reservations, in fact he's the only pre-Open era great that's currently on the list. I find that a fair compromise, though I'm sure many will still take exception. :)
 
While I agree that Karlovic's serve is better than Sampras's (for example), when you compare % of service games won you have to consider that Karlovic rarely got to the final rounds of big tournaments (QF, SF and Final of M-1000 or GS) and so he did not play against very top-players that often.

Top players usually play against other top players more often (because they all usually get to final rounds in big tournaments) and it is more probable to lose some service games against a top-player than against a non-top-player.

I have not studied this effect seriously but it probably skew things a little bit.

For example, Wayne Arthurs (a great server from the 90s) had (IIRC) great service numbers, but he rarely got to the final rounds of big tournaments, he lost so many matches against lower-ranked players that he did not face very top-players that often. That could have an effect in his % and numbers related to service.

I am not saying that it is a big effect (maybe 1 or 2 points percentage higher than what they may deserve had they played against top players more often), after all Arthurs really was one of the best servers of the 90s (some players like Agassi, Courier and Johansson have said that he was THE BEST server in the world).
excellent point, as always. :)

are you suggesting to look at something like inverse-rank weighted stats ? ;)

as regards my previous list, i'm considering the possible inclusion of raonic.
(and as regards youngsters... let's see what happens with kyrgios: there's potential !)
in terms of "lethal serves"... what about the following ones ?

ivanisevic
sampras
karlovic
arthurs (often forgotten but he wasn't easy to break !)
johansson (joachim)
philippoussis
isner
roddick

now, many other players have/had cool and efficient serves !
(edberg's, for instance) :)
 
Karlovic is no doubt the best server in history. Obviously the rest of his game is poor. Raonic will be a contestant. Not even Sampras' or Roddick' is at fhat level but of course they both had a stronger game to back it up.
 
I believe you on Gonzales' height, but as I noted Goran was actually taller still (if just barely) at 6'4". Again my point was that many of these guys were/are even taller than these two, and that's usually hard to offset unless you've got an exceptional strength or more such as Pete's unusually high topspin component (as measured by Yandell) and his famously potent 2nd serve. Gonzales' 1st serve may well be up there with anyone's but I haven't come across many accounts that tout his 2nd serve that I've seen with Kramer (or Newk for that matter). And Segura in a recent interview rated Pete's serve mechanics as the best he'd seen, which presumably would've taken into account Gonzales'.

Also you might recall that I've given Vines, Kramer and the other old-timers honorable mentions (though I'm thinking about adding Vines to the list) not necessarily because I consider their serves inferior but because the lack of footage and the significant changes in serve technique and strategy over the years make it almost impossible to compare them to the more recent ones. It's really to Gonzales' great credit that I've ranked him as high as #4 of all time despite these reservations, in fact he's the only pre-Open era great that's currently on the list. I find that a fair compromise, though I'm sure many will still take exception. :)
Totally fair.
 
I really should be catching up on my readings but since I've wasted nearly a whole afternoon already....

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Gonzales
5. Krajicek
6. Arthurs
7. Roddick
8. Newcombe
9. Isner
10. McEnroe
11. Tanner
12. Becker
13. Philippoussis
14. Stich
15. Curren
16. Zivojinovic
17. Raonic
18. Rusedski
19. Federer
20. Noah

Honorary mentions:

McLoughlin, Maurice - perhaps the first distinguished cannonball serve in tennis history
Tilden - yet another storied power serve, which he bolstered with spin and accuracy
Vines - by all accounts, the best and fastest serve of the pre-WWII era
Kramer - in addition to a formidable first serve, perhaps the best second serve before Newcombe and Sampras
Denton - his unusual service motion notwithstanding, could bring enormous heat
Edberg - for his legendary kicker, arguably the best ever for serve-and-volley
Johansson, Joachim - Denton of the 2000s

As you can see I've added Zivojinovic, moved Curren up a notch and, as much as it pains me, dropped Noah all the way down to #20. I've been watching some Bobo clips lately and not only was Datacipher (who again has nothing to do with a certain current poster) right that the Serb probably had a bigger serve than Becker, I now see that he had a pretty damn good 2nd serve himself. Bobo might well move up further in my future updates, while Noah might drop out of the list altogether and just be given an honorary mention. And Curren continues to impress both in footage and in service stats.

Also one thing I've noticed about Mac is that his stats in '91 in '92 are actually pretty mediocre, showing just about 82% of service games won. Now we know that by this time Mac was way over the hill, but considering that a player's service game usually doesn't decline so sharply as his return game I do wonder if his reputation precedes the actual strength of his serve. If anyone's got his stats from his heyday (1984 most of all, but from before '86) please don't hesitate to share them with us.

And here are a few of the servers we have yet to investigate further (listed by order of birth):

Gerald Patterson (1895)
Yvon Petra (1916)
Geoff Brown (1924)
Bob Falkenburg (1926)
Mike Sangster (1940)
Frank Froehling (1942)
Stan Smith (1946)
John Alexander (1951)
John Feaver (1952)
Scott Carnahan (1953)
Chip Hooper [1958]

Again some of these names like Patterson and Falkenburg might be worth an honorary mention, and perhaps more recent ones like Smith and Hooper can be ranked somewhere. As always feel free to chime in preferably with stats, news reports and firsthand accounts if available. Much obliged!

P.S. From now on I'll try to update the OP as well so first-time visitors know what to expect.
 
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