Greatest Serves of All Time

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by NonP, Jan 14, 2010.

  1. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    There is some good video of Gerald Patterson's immaculate service technique:



     
  2. dr7

    dr7 Rookie

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    I won't dig into a bunch of stats, but from the "eye test" I have to give the nod to Sampras. You don't beat Agassi in 4 out of 5 Grand Slam finals unless you have a serious serve. That serve, 1st and 2nd serve got him out of some big holes countless times and he did it on some really BIG points in really BIG matches. That is part of my assessment, BIG Points, BIG matches, coming through under pressure. Pete seemed to be the first guy that gambled, would pick his spots and go for huge 2nd serves. Pete was only 6 feet or maybe 6.1, but he had a beautiful, fluid motion that was repeatable and didn't break down under pressure.


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  3. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    I had the #s for the Gonzales match and also Laver's vs. Fraser, but since they weren't complete I decided against posting them. The other ones I indeed didn't have. Grazie for bringing them to our attention.

    It's quite likely those 30 "aces" by Vines are in fact all of his unreturned serves in that match, as 30 clean aces in such a short 3-setter would be an exceptional # even now. Let me know if you ever confirm it or see it contradicted in another report, otherwise we'll go with 30 out of 79 for Vines. Do you have Bunny's total in that match, BTW?

    P.S. Moose got 33 and 29 unreturned serves for Santana and Ralston respectively in their '66 Wimby final. Not sure how/where you got 39 and 35.

    And thought I'd point out you got the year wrong ('48 rather than '49) in your OP about the Gonzales match. Might wanna go back and correct it.

    You're welcome. ;)

    Hey Moose, thanks for the Donald #s. And I'd be most interested to see the stats from the Newport final. Not just 'cause it had two heavyweights going at each other on grass but also 'cause Ivo's #s for some reason tend to be somewhat underwhelming in his matches against other servebots, or at least among those we have so far. I'm guessing the mere horror of having to play a clone of himself psyches him out. :D

    Believe those have been posted/viewed before. Anyhoo a new shout-out to the old-timers can't hurt.

    dr7, I assume you're new here so let me say welcome to the forum and direct you to the very first post of this thread, which explains the purpose and methodology of this ranking/discussion:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/greatest-serves-of-all-time.306579/

    I've said several times before that all things considered I'd pick Pete over anyone else for that proverbial do-or-die match, but as a pure stroke I do think his serves falls just short of Goran's and Ivo's. Having said that I'm currently considering moving Sampras to the very top of the heap, not because of that clutch factor but also because some of the stats I've recently unearthed strongly suggest his serve even as a stand-alone shot was hardly second to anyone's. Stay tuned.
     
  4. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    ^I don't count aces with unreturned serves, remember? Kroseros numbers on Santana Ralston are correct.
     
  5. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]

    So are you still doing this or did you at some point start including aces in your counts of unreturned serves?
     
  6. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Like I said before, I only do that in this thread. I did change the language to return errors instead of unreturned serves at some point.
    I certainly didn't expect anyone to care about that stat or start archiving my work, esp all these years later(the Santana thread is from 2011)
    Seemed like krosero was the only one who even read what I posted, so I rarely post any stats threads anymore(still do stats though)
    most posters here seemed to just care about goat debates and #1 for 1964, 1977 etc...
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  7. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    OK, time for a new update. See if you can locate the changes in our main ranking:
    1. Ivanisevic
    2. Karlovic
    3. Sampras
    4. Gonzales
    5. Krajicek
    6. Arthurs
    7. Roddick
    8. Newcombe
    9. Isner
    10. Becker
    11. Philippoussis
    12. Zivojinovic
    13. McEnroe
    14. Raonic
    15. Curren
    16. Stich
    17. Tanner
    18. Rusedski
    19. Federer
    20. Muller
    21. Smith
    The Honorary Hall of Fame remains intact (by order of birth as usual):
    • McLoughlin, Maurice - perhaps the first distinguished cannonball serve in tennis history
    • Tilden - yet another storied power serve, which he bolstered with spin and accuracy
    • Doeg, John - Ivanisevic to Vines' Sampras, a southpaw whose serve was considered one of the two or three greatest ever (along with Vines') in his heyday
    • Stoefen, Lester - one of the first giants with a feared high-rise rocket launcher
    • Vines - by many accounts, the best and fastest serve of the pre-WWII era
    • Kramer - in addition to a formidable first delivery, perhaps the best second serve before Newcombe and Sampras
    • Denton, Steve - his unusual service motion notwithstanding, an ace dispenser that could bring enormous heat
    • Edberg - for his iconic kicker (any logo ring a bell?), arguably the best ever for serve-and-volley
    • Johansson, Joachim - Denton of the aughts
    As you may have noticed we have a new addition this time: Gilles Muller. Yes, that Muller, the same Luxembourger who has never been ranked higher than #34 in the world. And we currently have only three matches in which we know how many of his serves were unreturned. So how does one justify the inclusion of such an obscure journeyman? This is why:

    2016 Newport SF W Young - 73.3% (33/45), 18 aces, 3 DFs [25% (18/72), 0 aces, 3 DFs]
    2015 AO 3R W Isner - 47.4% (46/97), 23 aces, 3 DFs [52.2% (59/113), 30 aces, 2 DFs]
    2013 Marseille QF L Tursunov - 45.3% (39/86), 27 aces, 5 DFs [27.5% (28/102), 10 aces, 3 DFs]

    (Go here for a primer on how to interpret these %s.)

    That 73.3% is easily the highest ratio of unreturned serves by any player in our database, and in fact the only one we were able to confirm that exceeded 70%. (The only two other possible cases thus far: Karlovic winning at least 66.7% of freebies on serve vs. Bracciali in the first round of '05 Wimbledon, and Llodra of all people scoring 71% against Isner in the first set of their 2nd-rounder at '12 Paris. Alas we've never been able to fill in the gaps.) Of course we're talking a very small sample size, and I suspect Muller is in fact a borderline GSOAT candidate a la Ashe, Noah, Forget, Rosset, Ljubicic, Tsonga and Kyrgios, but when you look at the number of aces per match (which I admit isn't a perfect parameter) Muller does come out slightly ahead of these guys. And I like to give unsung plebeians their due, so I say Muller deserves extra credit for that 70+% game alone. If you got a problem with that, tough.

    And you may have seen that Rusedski has now overtaken Federer who in turn has moved past Smith. Going forward I'm going to take a radical approach that says any received wisdom is more false than true and unless we come across contrary evidence we rank these candidates according to the data we do have. So Stich now sits above Tanner despite the latter's more formidable reputation, and while Smith's serve may well be better than Fed's when equalized for conditions Stan's underwhelming stats so far place him at the very bottom of the ladder. I have more or less Greg's complete known stats and once I confirm his # of unreturned serves and total service points in the '97 USO final I'll go ahead and post his numbers as well.

    Some names we're trying to decide whether to add or drop (year of birth in parentheses):
    • Bob Falkenburg (1926)
    • Mike Sangster (1940)
    • Colin Dibley (1944)
    • John Feaver (1952)
    • Victor Amaya (1954)
    As I warned last time Gerald Patterson (1895) has now been eliminated. Speak up if you find this turn of events outrageous! And of course if you got other ideas or suggestions. As always stats, press reports and/or firsthand accounts are a great way to bolster your case.

    And now some light housekeeping:

    Moose, FYI an e-pal asked me yesterday to say thanks for your stats and also let it be known that he drops by this forum for your and other posters' stat work as tennis is not one of those sports where this kind of info is readily available. And I doubt he's the only lurker that feels the same way, so do feel free to post any stats that you think people might like to know about. It's not just moi and krosero who are paying attention. :cool:
     
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  8. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Good catch, corrected. Don't have Austin's aces, only know that he won 37 of 81 service points (45.7%) and was broken 7 times. Vines won 52 of 79 service points (65.8%) and was broken once.
     
  9. skaj

    skaj Rookie

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    women:

    1.Serena
    2.Stosur
    3.Davenport
    4.Navratilova
    5.Venus
    6.Lisicki
    7.Schultz-McCarthy
    8.Court
    9.Hradecka
    10.Mauresmo
    11.Grönefeld
    12.Petrova
    13.Sharapova(pre shoulder surgery)
    14.Graf
    15.Keys
    16.Kvitova
    17.Ivanovic(up to 2008.)
    18.Görges
    19.Novotna
    20.Vandeweghe

    who did I forget?
     
  10. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Yes, it's easy to forget that Ivanovic had one of the biggest serves on the tour for a while. Amazing that it could go that badly after that.
     
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  11. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Hall of Fame

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    If this is a top five list, this is easy:
    Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, and Sampras
    If we get into top ten, it goes something like:
    Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, Sampras, and Sampras

    Not sure about 9 and 10.
     
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  12. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    @NonP I finally took stats on the Tanner Vilas AO final
    Here are the unreturned serve rates:

    Tanner
    39/84: 46%
    1st serve: 30/37: 81%
    2nd serve: 9/47: 19%

    Vilas
    22/86: 25.5%
    1st serve: 16/51: 31%
    2nd serve: 6/35: 17%

    I also took stats on Feds match vs Bozoljac at 2010 Wimbledon(I recall you saying it was his best serving year, ace wise?)

    Federer
    59/135: 43.7%
    1st serve: 47/94: 50%
    2nd serve: 12/41: 29%

    Bozoljac
    62/140: 44.28%
    1st serve: 53/90: 59%
    2nd serve: 9/50: 18%
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  13. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I think the top 5 is solid, not sure I would put Stosur #2 personally although her kick serve is underrated by many. I'd probably remove a few of those ladies, Vandeweghe & Gorges come to mind, and consider Henin. For her size, Henin could blast the serve and had decent serve placement as well. I'd probably drop folks like Lisicki and Brenda down a few spots, they had power but consistency is a major issue in both of their serves, especially for Lisicki.
     
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  14. skaj

    skaj Rookie

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    speed of henin's serve was impressive for her height, fine placement too I agree(same goes for Schiavone and Mattek-Sands), but it was not too consistent, especially the second serve, she risked too much... I wouldn't put her among the best servers. I think it was just not a big weapon, which was the case for the other girls I mentioned. she had all the other weapons though :)
     
  15. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    K you impatient schmucks, here are all the Krajicek matches in my unreturned-serve collection. (I've also updated my Stich list if you're interested.) As usual I'm including his opponent's stats in brackets and also links to more extensive box scores where available:

    1997 WIM 1R W Craca - 59.3% (48/81), 19 aces, 1 DF [26.2% (28/107), 1 ace, 4 DFs]
    1997 WIM 3R W Rikl - 58.0% (47/81), 23 aces, 2 DFs [31.1% (32/103), 4 aces, 3 DFs]
    1996 WIM 1R W Sanchez - 57.8% (48/83), 23 aces, 5 DFs [27.8% (27/97), 0 ace, 1 DF]
    1996 WIM QF W Sampras - 53.0% (62?/117), 29 aces, 5 DFs [45% (45/100), 8 aces, 8 DFs]
    1998 Wim SF L Ivanisevic - 52.4% (100/191), 42 aces, 5 DFs [40.7% (81/199), 28 aces, 16 DFs]
    1997 WIM 2R W Pavel - 52.3% (69/132), 32 aces, 3 DFs [39.0% (62/159), 2 aces, 9 DFs]
    1998 Stuttgart SF W Sampras - 51.5% (52/101), 16 aces, 4 DFs [38% (38/100), 17 aces, 6 DFs]
    1996 WIM 4R W Stich - 49.0% (48/98), 13 aces, 7 DFs [34.6% (36?/104), 9 aces, 7 DFs]
    1997 WIM 4R L Henman - 46.5% (67/144), 24 aces, 3 DFs [42.4% (64/151), 7 aces, 5 DFs]
    1996 WIM F W Washington - 46.5% (33/71), 14 aces, 3 DFs [23.9% (21/88), 5 aces, 2 DFs]
    1999 USO QF L Kafelnikov - 46.1% (82/178), 48 aces, 13 DFs [34.2% (54/158), 10 aces, 5 DFs]
    1996 WIM 3R W Steven - 43.7% (59/135), 33 aces, 6 DFs [28.5% (43/151), 2 aces, 9 DFs]
    1996 WIM SF W Stoltenberg - 43.2% (38/88), 15 aces, 3 DFs [27.8% (25/90), 5 aces, 12 DFs]
    2000 USO 3R W Henman - 40.8% (64/157), 25 aces, 7 DFs [27.4% (45/164), 4 aces, 17 DFs]
    1994 DC QF W Sampras - 34.4% (44/128), 16 aces, 8 DFs [29.3% (43/147), 9 aces, 7 DFs]
    1995 New Haven F L Agassi - 31.1% (32/103), 19 aces, 7 DFs [33.0% (30/91), 8 aces, 3 DFs]

    As I told @abmk earlier there's a slight discrepancy between the official tally and @slice serve ace's: in the shocking upset of Sampras at '96 Wimby the latter's got 62 unreturned serves for Richard while the AEC came up with 61. (slice or someone else I can't recall also has 36 URS's for Mike vs. Richard, but the official box score lists 37. I also couldn't verify Pete's ace total in the Stuttgart match - 17 per the ATP but 15 in Voo de Mar's tally.) Other than that these numbers should be pretty damn accurate.

    And again see how consistently excellent these #s are. Granted many of the matches were on grass, but regardless of the surface this is the kind of reliability that even the likes of Ivanisevic, Arthurs and Karlovic would be proud of. If there was any doubt about Krajicek's standing among the GSOATs this list should dispel it completely.
     
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  16. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    I think Ivan Lendl's serve should find a place on the all time list, especially in his lower toss days.
     
  17. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    @NonP
    Here are a few recent matches for Federer.

    Stuttgart
    Fed 38/94 40.4%
    Haas 38/107 35.5%

    Halle
    Fed 21/77 27.2%
    Khachanov 20/69 29%

    Also the commentators said that 60% of Isner's serves were unreturned during his 2nd set tiebreak with Fritz today.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  18. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    You know, this thread wasn't supposed to be about men only and these WTA lists are very much welcome. I'd start devising one of my own but since I pay very little attention to women's tennis these days I'm reluctant to pontificate on this one. So I'll just add I second @boredone3456 in questioning such a high ranking for Stosur while appreciating her inclusion as well.

    Thanks Moose. Keep 'em coming. :cool: Guess you didn't track Isner's full match today?

    As you may recall I've decided that Lendl was/is more or less on par with the likes of Ashe, Forget and Tsonga - almost there but not quite, cuz both my eyes and stats tell me so. You dare to question my final verdict?
     
  19. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    No way to track it, ESPN jumps around during early round matches. Plus I think I'm done doing stats on his matches, I don't really enjoy watching him play. Guess the Wimbledon website doesn't have more info. But someone must be tracking that stat for the commentators to mention it.
     
  20. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Virginia Wade?
     
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  21. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    FYI, www.ESPN.com/watch online allows you to pick the court you want to watch.
     
  22. tom williams

    tom williams New User

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  23. tom williams

    tom williams New User

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    Wheres Lew Hoad the late Art Larsen said a few years ago that Lew Hoads serve was more power full than Roddicks
     
  24. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    Limpin beat me to it. :D But I understand your being meh about Isner. There've been a few Isner matches I did enjoy (his upset of Roddick at the '09 USO, for one), but he definitely wouldn't be among my top choices to watch.

    First off, rubbish. There are a few areas where Roddick has been bested but power ain't one of 'em. Check out his serve speeds at 2004 Wimbledon for a few examples.

    Second, let's match noise for noise and consider Vines' more measured take from his fine book Tennis: in his glowing (if rambling) chapter on Hoad he approvingly quotes Larsen's claim that Hoad's delivery was swifter than Gonzales', but he then adds that Lew's 2nd serve was "not quite up to Pancho's kicker." Roddick's own OTOH belongs to the upper echelon of distinguished 2nd serves in history.

    Third, power is highly overrated at the pro level, especially among the very greatest servers who have been nominated here. The fact that you cited power alone as your case for Hoad does not speak well of your understanding of the game.

    And last but not least, if you truly cared to learn about the game rather than stick up for your pin-up boy you would've noticed in that very post of mine you quoted why I've decided against ranking most of the old-timers in favor of giving them honorary mentions. If you want to be taken seriously try to offer an actual argument of your own.
     
  25. NickJ

    NickJ Semi-Pro

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    Honourable mention for Mike Sangster?? Had an unofficial recorded serve of 154mph back in the 60's (I think).
    I remember being given a copy of his book 'Cannonball Tennis' !! Read it cover to cover numerous times but my best recorded (which was when I was in my 20's, and indoor) was 126mph.
     
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  26. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    In my view, Lew Hoad and Ellsworth Vines had greater serves than many if not most on your list. Your justification for omitting Hoad, that Gonzalez had a greater second serve, if extended to its logical conclusion, would require the removal of everyone else on your list except for Sampras.
     
  27. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

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    Another match stat for the collection, @NonP ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  28. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

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    Raonic had 96 service points, Federer 89.

    The question is if unreturned serves above includes aces or not ?

    Edit : federer won 35/96 return points.

    If unreturned serves did not include aces, that'd mean Raonic would have 47 serves not returned by federer. which would leave only 14 points won by raonic on serve other than through serves not returned. Highly unlikely, given federer won 35.

    So, that means unreturned serves includes aces.

    which would have federer winning 35 of the 60 points on Raonic's serve when he put the ball back into play, which seems fine.

    So %s :

    Raonic : 36/96 = 37.5%
    Federer : 34/89 = 38.2%

    @NonP : You had Raonic at 25% serves unreturned in the Wim 16 final, correct ? But he was broken only once there. He was broken thrice here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
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  29. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Gonzales, by logical extension, should have had little trouble with Hoad's second serve, but that was clearly not the case.
    Gonzales simply said that he had trouble with Hoad's unpredictable serve, which used heavy spins in all directions...you need enormous wrist strength to manage that.
     
  30. Shaolin

    Shaolin Legend

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    Newcombe? Interesting.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  31. Tshooter

    Tshooter Hall of Fame

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    I think Hewitt used to say Arthur's had the toughest serve for him to return.
     
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  32. Shaolin

    Shaolin Legend

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    Yeah the Arthurs serve was nasty af.
     
  33. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    Sangster's name has come up several times in this thread and as you may have noticed he's been one of our to-add-or-not candidates for some time now. That said his (unofficial) record alone isn't enough to merit his inclusion. For better or worse we've got fairly high standards here. More stats and respectable firsthand observations would be welcome.

    FYI Vines is already in the Honorary HoF. I've decided to give most of the old-timers honorary mentions only due to lack of enough visual/statistical evidence, though Elly is actually the one guy I've strongly considered giving a numerical ranking (mostly thanks to research by krosero).

    And Gonzales is on the list not only thanks to his legendary reputation but also because none other than Vic Braden concluded in his book Tennis 2000 (as good ol' Data once reminded us) that he was confident Pancho would be able to serve in the 140-ish mph range today. That kind of rigorous analysis is a far cry from the above poster's half-baked claim (or his quoting of Larsen's) that Hoad's serve was even more powerful than Gorgo's, especially when in an actual '59 serving contest Pancho came out slightly ahead, and that based on this wishing thinking alone his pin-up boy deserves a place among the ATG servers.

    If he and his ilk were actually interested in discussion I'd be more sympathetic, but they seem to congregate here for the sole purpose of hyping up their hero, which is not only annoying as hell but a waste of everyone else's time. Of course fanboys are dime a dozen especially in the General Pro madhouse, but here we've got a couple of rabid Vilas seguidores who seem to have nothing better to do than agitating for their idol's imaginary #1 ranking in '77, not to mention the geezers who are presumably much older and should know better.

    Speaking of whom....

    Fanboy dullsville as usual. There have been literally dozens if not hundreds of servers who "used heavy spins in all directions" throughout tennis history. You and most of your fellow old farts have not shown the slightest hint of technical acumen (I still remember your comical description of Sampras of all people as a mediocre athlete) in all of your 132593454 posts combined. Just stick to what you do best and focus on historical trivia.

    And you didn't bother to read what you quoted, again. If you wanna have a real discussion you should start paying more attention to what others actually say.

    Make that impossible. The official statistician gave Raonic 16 FH/BH "rally" winners (including volleys), that is > 14. 16 + 11 aces + 2 service winners gives him the total tally of 29.

    Thanks for the #s anyway. Did they flash that graphic after the other QFs yesterday?

    Yeah. But it goes without saying, better return doesn't necessarily mean better return game. ;) (Reportedly Andy was slightly injured, too.)

    BTW that wasn't a fluke by Murray. I'm guessing you've seen this already but just in case:

    Also Raonic did better in last year's SF, going 69/167 or 41.3% (Fed himself managed 58/160 or 36.3%).

    And hardly controversial. Newk by all accounts was the Sampras/Becker of his day. Plus he's got several impressive feats of his own, having 39.2% of his serves unreturned against Kodes (one of the best returners back then) in the '73 USO final and 38.5% against Smith in the '71 Wimby final. Adjusting for conditions those #s would roughly translate to high-40s/low 50s today, which any player would gladly take in a major final.
     
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  34. NickJ

    NickJ Semi-Pro

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    'We' or you? I think i did add the words 'honourable mention' not like I said he had the BEST serve ever, or was better than anyone else. Try reading posts before you get up on your very high horse and spout rubbish.
    I didn't realise you had put in charge of all that is tennis related. Sounds like you've crawled up very much inside your own bottom looking down on all who you'd sh1t on without prejudice. 'I know more than you so that makes me the king of all things tennis . . . '

    And what else did you say, I really can't be bothered to copy & paste through all your cr4p. Something about stats & firsthand observations? Mike Sangster died some years ago, would be difficult to observe anything now.

    You prat.
     
  35. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

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    got it from another forum when I was googling something else.

    some of those winners from fh/bh wing could be on the return games as well (actually are), not just on service games for Raonic. So you can't still disprove it mathematically.

    yeah, but 25% unreturned serves and just one break of Raobot by Murray in 3 sets is unusual.

    Murray injured ? today ? yes.
    wim 16 final ? eh, what ?

    expected given fed's condition/form last year.

    do you have the stats for their 14 encounter ?
     
  36. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    BTW forgot to add I'm feeling better about adding Muller to my list after his latest Wimby run. Granted his ace totals fluctuated (from only 8 against Fucsovics in 1R to a whopping 45 vs. Rosol in 2R) and were nowhere near Goran's or Ivo's averages in '01 and '15 respectively, but results speak louder than numbers and his serve was no doubt a big ingredient of his success. Congrats to the Luxembourgian on his career-best achievement.

    Rather touchy type, aren't you? Look, you read way more into my last post than you should have. FYI Sangster's supposed record has been mentioned before which is why he remains under consideration to begin with, and I'm actually glad that we're still talking about guys like him rather than the usual suspects only. It's just that I tend to work very slowly before I add or remove any names, and if you go back you'll see that I'm something of a stat guy and try to balance hard numbers and impressions for my rankings. If there's one thing I've learned from this thread it's that human observations can be rather unreliable.

    Anyway I can see how my last post might have come across as a stuck-up diss to a newcomer like you. Wasn't my intention. Let's bury this and move on.

    Gotcha. Not sure they'd include those as "rally" winners, but you could be right. Even so we'd be talking 4-5 return winners tops from Milos, which leaves an awfully small window for him here.

    I'd guess so myself. Now that you mention it I might do some kind of analysis when I get a chance.

    Didn't mean to say Murray was injured last year. Just wanted to share the #s.

    40% (32/80) for Fed, 42.9% (36/84) for Milos.

    (BTW my Fed URS list could really use a new update, but it seems that I come across new Fed #s every other week or so. Maybe I'll finally go ahead when my total hits 100.)

    P.S. FYI the Wimbledon site annoyingly doesn't show the latest stats on the player's profile page. Muller hit 8 aces against Fucsovics, not 6. Did get his total right vs. Rosol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  37. NickJ

    NickJ Semi-Pro

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    My apologies.
     
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  38. mhkeuns

    mhkeuns Hall of Fame

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    I wonder who owns the title of owning the greatest second serve. IIRC, Sampras' second serves were just as effective as his first serves.
     
  39. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Sorry to disturb your self-created cocoon of slumber, but GREAT SERVE = TOUGH TO BREAK, which is why Gonzales rated Hoad so high on service effectiveness. And, yes, a slow spun serve is easier to return than a heavy, hard, fast spun serve.

    That 1959 test? Gonzales 112 mph on cannonball serve, Hoad at 110 mph, in other words, small difference, given the measurement procedure of the day.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  40. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

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    yeah,good, intelligent serving from Muller at this year's wimby.(this grass season in general). mental strength seems to have improved after finally winning his first title this year.


    I meant any winners in the return game, not necessarily with the return.


    would be interesting to see if you get to it.

    ok, thanks. so fed got back a slightly higher% of serves back into play, so did Raonic this time around than in 14. Marginal difference though.

    I just go by the completed scores page.
     
  41. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Apparently IBM does a Wimbledon blog every day with certain stats being spotlighted. I came across it when I was searching for a source on 53% of Venus' serves being unreturned vs Ostapenko which I read about in various match reports. They say she had 31 of 58 serves unreturned. Ostapenko only had 20% of her serves unreturned. I've done stats on many women's matches over the years and 53% is extremely high, will have to compile them all together some day. There has been a quantum leap in serving in the women's game in recent years, no equivalent of Becker, Curren in the 80s for them. The blog said that Venus had 46% of her first serves unreturned in her first 5 matches and 30% of her 2nd serves. And through the first 4 matches for the men queerey had the best ratio for unreturned 1st serves with 62% and Djokovic had the
    Best for unreturned 2nd serves with 34%. Will try to post links later but they shouldn't be hard to find. Search game changers and Wimbledon and IBM.

    Read another blog that says Cilic had 45% of his serves unreturned vs Muller, and 56% of his first serves unreturned.

    This women from IBM tweets stats at @ eryanobrien
    I'm not on Twitter, but maybe one of you can contact her, I'm sure she has all the unreturned serve numbers for the entire tournament.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  42. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    You can count literally on the fingers of one hand the players who were renowned in tennis circles for their 2nd serve, which was not only seen as an exceptionally strong shot but rather considered a nonpareil weapon: Kramer, Newcombe and Sampras. And while era comparisons are tricky the title probably goes to Pistol.

    Typical Dan Lobb tactic. You see, this is why I don't bother to engage you anymore, 'cause I know whatever the hell I tell you will go in one ear and out the other. You just attacked at least two straw men while offering a bunch of platitudes which nobody would dispute.

    But I see that even you admit Larsen and your bud were talking crap when they said your pin-up boy's serve was more powerful than Gonzales'. I'll take it, even though you couldn't bring yourself to say it.

    I caught some of the Muller-Nadal replay and it did look like a very high-quality match, maybe even the best of the tournament. That is, Rafa didn't lose it, Gilles won it. My guess is that Muller in the next round would've defeated almost anyone other than Cilic.

    Speaking of who I know you're pulling for your guy but my crystal ball tells me Marin will win his 2nd major on Sunday. No objective analysis here (hard to analyze anything when you've seen so little of it), just a gut feeling I've had since even before his win over Muller. The guy seems to be the real sleeper of this GC season.

    Ah, I see what you mean now. Should've noticed all winners were counted, not only those on serve. Had a brain fart there. :oops:

    De nada.

    You always should. It's the one thing I've learned while exhuming those old archived pages (remember that incomplete box score for the '00 USO final?). The #s on the player's profile page usually seem to have been left off just a few points before the last one of the match.

    Came across this before you posted those tidbits:

    [​IMG]

    So yeah, wouldn't be surprised if IBM had the URS #s for the entire event. As you may have guessed I'm not on Twitter either, and even if I were I'd be hesitant to hit up a complete stranger for such a big favor. Which is another way of saying, go ahead and post those links. :D
     
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  43. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Larsen would know, having played both.

    Power is not just a function of speed of the ball, but the torque of the ball rotation, which is where Hoad loaded the ball with power.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  44. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

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    yeah, I think so.

    Based on grass court warmup tournaments+ actual slam winning possibility ( which excludes Lopez for instance), Cilic was #2 after Federer. Not a sleeper if you've been following the grass court tournaments before wimby tbh. I think he was #5 according to the bookies before wimby started ( after the big 4)

    I actually feared him , given he was broken only once in 8 matches (in 2 warmup tournaments) and knew he was going to go deep at Wimby, but given he's been broken 10 times at wimby and having watched his QF and SF matches, that fear's gone down. Fed's favorite , though Cilic has a decent shot, IMO.


    never really bothered with the #s from a player's profile page while checking those. I go straight for the completed matches.
     
  45. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    According to Vic Braden, Pancho Gonzalez serve was so dominant on the pro tour that they experimented with giving players only one serve instead of two to try to neutralize Gonzalez' advantage. It backfired, and increased his advantage. All this to say that there is no doubt in my mind that Gonzalez second serve was one of the all time greats.
     
  46. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Hoad not only hit a very heavy serve, his serve had great disguise.
     
  47. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Hoad used the same arm motion for every serve.
    Yes, the movement and direction of the ball was unpredictable, given the amount of spin which his wrist movement gave.
    And, again, the statements that Hoad serve was more powerful than Gonzales means that the torque of his serves gave the power, which is more than just about absolute speed, but also the force of rotation on the ball.
    The most sophisticated serve ever.
     
  48. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Glad to see Denton on the honorable mentions list. I was at an exhibition and Denton and some junior champion were the "warm up" act. Denton waited until the middle of the set to pull out his big serve. It was incredibly loud and the crowd was stunned into silence. Denton grinned and then did a few more like that, just for fun. After that he gave the kid a break. But all always remember that serve.

    One thing about Stich. In my tennis encyclopedia, he has the dubious honor of having the record for most double faults in a season. But in the year he did that, he was rated 2nd in the world! So i bet he hit alot of aces and service winners off his second serve. His serve was a weapon, if he missed on the first try, he didn't let his opponent off the hook.

    Sometimes that's a good strategy.

    P.S. Where is Francoise Durr's serve rated?
     

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