Greatest Serves of All Time

[Heuristic]

You might be thinking of this (as the vid description says, perhaps the 1st big USO upset of the new millennium):

Anyhoo Arthurs is definitely up there. FYI @slice serve ace once looked at the % of aces/1st-serve points (which makes sense, as pretty much anyone not named Sampras earns most of his aces on 1st serves) for the servebots and it turned out Wayne, Ivo and Goran were a class above everyone else. A]

Aurthurs and Ivanesivic are nowhere near Karlovics lifetime ace procentage (23.5), and his peak 27!!. Closest is Isner at 20.6% (peak around 22). Karlovic threw kickers as second serves, not aces.

Goran had 17% lifetime. Arthurs 16%

Doesn't include first serves only, but since karlovic does not aim for aces with his second serves most of the time, and has 66% first serves in compared to Isners 69-70%....

https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=1964

 

[The Green Mile]

Karlovic says Wayne Arthurs had the best serve he ever faced, for what it's worth

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2019...strong-he-approaches-his-40th-birthday/79670/

Although Karlovic has pushed Rafael Nadal into final set tiebreakers in three of their five career meetings, he has never beaten the great left-hander. Is the Spaniard tougher mentally than anyone Karlovic has competed against?

“That is difficult to say,” he asserts, “because when I am serving well there is nothing they can really do, either the top guys or someone ranked 80 or 90. If I hit an ace there is not much of a difference.”

Another boss statement from the big man.

 

[krosero]

This GOAT thread really could use another round of housekeeping. I'll try to update my URS files and share the results by the end of the year.

Ok NonP, you know we've been saying that service stats before OE seem significantly lower than today's service numbers, and that this uptick you've been documenting in stats like service hold %, unreturned serves, etc., in recent decades might have been going on for much longer? Well, I've got some proof of it now. I made a brief visit to the Newport tennis library last month and found a bunch of service stats in that British journal that I've mentioned before, Lawn Tennis and Badminton.

A certain Dr. F.H. Pearce, who was an English player and umpire, got access to the All-England Club's scoresheets for all Wimbledon matches played in 1923, in all divisions: men's and women's singles and all doubles. In the men's singles, out of 4,229 games played, 2,412 were service holds -- a hold rate of 57.0%!

The men held at a rate of 82.1% (of 4,492 games, 3,688 were holds) at this year's Wimbledon, per https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/extrastats/index.html

So the men have jumped 25 percentage points. The women have jumped 18 points. According to that linked page, the women held at a rate of 68.3% at this year's Wimbledon (1,868 holds in 2,735 games). Back in 1923 their rate was only 50.1% (662 holds in 1,322 games).

_______________

Dr. Pearce did this same compilation covering all matches in the last 3 rounds of Wimbledon, though the specific year is not reported. I think it was the 1930 edition, but in any case, these are the numbers:

Per Pearce, the men held at a rate of 58.0% in the last 3 rounds, the women at 54.7%.

At the most recent Wimbledon, in the last 3 rounds the men held at a rate of 82.8%, the women at 68.4%.

 

[NonP]

Aurthurs and Ivanesivic are nowhere near Karlovics lifetime ace procentage (23.5), and his peak 27!!. Closest is Isner at 20.6% (peak around 22). Karlovic threw kickers as second serves, not aces.

Goran had 17% lifetime. Arthurs 16%

Doesn't include first serves only, but since karlovic does not aim for aces with his second serves most of the time, and has 66% first serves in compared to Isners 69-70%....

https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=1964

I explained why crude comparisons of this sort are misleading in that very thread I directed you to the other day but it's clear you didn't read jack crap of what I wrote. Stop wasting my time if you're that uninterested in what I have to say.

Ok NonP, you know we've been saying that service stats before OE seem significantly lower than today's service numbers, and that this uptick you've been documenting in stats like service hold %, unreturned serves, etc., in recent decades might have been going on for much longer? Well, I've got some proof of it now. I made a brief visit to the Newport tennis library last month and found a bunch of service stats in that British journal that I've mentioned before, Lawn Tennis and Badminton.

A certain Dr. F.H. Pearce, who was an English player and umpire, got access to the All-England Club's scoresheets for all Wimbledon matches played in 1923, in all divisions: men's and women's singles and all doubles. In the men's singles, out of 4,229 games played, 2,412 were service holds -- a hold rate of 57.0%!

The men held at a rate of 82.1% (of 4,492 games, 3,688 were holds) at this year's Wimbledon, per https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/extrastats/index.html

So the men have jumped 25 percentage points. The women have jumped 18 points. According to that linked page, the women held at a rate of 68.3% at this year's Wimbledon (1,868 holds in 2,735 games). Back in 1923 their rate was only 50.1% (662 holds in 1,322 games).

_______________

Dr. Pearce did this same compilation covering all matches in the last 3 rounds of Wimbledon, though the specific year is not reported. I think it was the 1930 edition, but in any case, these are the numbers:

Per Pearce, the men held at a rate of 58.0% in the last 3 rounds, the women at 54.7%.

At the most recent Wimbledon, in the last 3 rounds the men held at a rate of 82.8%, the women at 68.4%.

Superb sleuthing, krosero. And yeah, that % for the men is truly mind-boggling. I knew it'd be low but I was still expecting mid to high 60s. I used to think there's much poetic license involved when Vines describes Budge's return as this impenetrable shield vs. all but the very best net rushers (read: Kramer), but it now looks like Elly was hardly exaggerating! (Granted Don was of a younger generation, but I doubt the %s would've seen such a big rise in a decade or so.)

BTW I just checked the webpage for the HoF's Information Research Center and was somewhat floored to learn that its visitation fee per day is $50. That's more than three times the admission to the museum! I was about to say maybe I should do some amateur sleuthing of my own when I finally set foot in the HoF on my next trip to Boston (which as you know is a lovely city to visit - the Museum of Fine Arts for one thing is among the very best in the world and I once walked all the way from Cambridge to downtown Boston just to take in the small-town vibes and scenery), but it sure looks like you'd better decide on a particular topic or two before diving in!

 

[Heuristic]

I explained why crude comparisons of this sort are misleading in that very thread I directed you to the other day but it's clear you didn't read jack crap of what I wrote. Stop wasting my time if you're that uninterested in what I have to say.

ATP aces from the 90s are correct. It's the other info which is unreliable. Otherwise you wouldn't know when Karlovic broke Ivanesivic's record.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/incorrect-atp-stats-a-survey.207411/

 

[Heuristic]

I wrote wrong in the post before. Wayne Arthurs actually had a higher lifetime ace procentage than Goran at 18.5%, though peak year for Goran (2001) is higher. Also better than Roddick, Sampras, Philipoussis, Krajicek etc.

The three best are Karlovic, Isner, Raonic. But Karlovic is quite ahead of the pack.

 

[Heuristic]

FWIW, Federer considers the greatest serve of all time a trio of Sampras/Ivanesivic/Karlovic.

Sampras is nowhere near those guys, he's at Roddicks stats, but people infatuated with him has this OCD compulsory habit of listing his serve.

 

[Heuristic]

Here is Federers comment

 

[Heuristic]

Federer Hits 10,000th Ace In Wimbledon Opener

“It's surreal,” Federer told ESPN. “It puts me up there with the likes of Ivanisevic and Karlovic, to whom I look up to and think they have the most unbelievable serve.”

 

[krosero]

From the list I started in the Becker-Curren thread -- Borg's unreturned serve %s in his 6 Wimbledon finals:

1979 - 33.6% (Tanner 31.1%)
1977 - 30.8% (Connors 7.1%)
1980 - 28.6% (McEnroe 38.8%)
1976 - 28.6% (Nastase 21.3%)
1978 - 28.2% (Connors 7.2%)
1981 - 24.0% (McEnroe 34.8%)

Mac in his 5 Wimb finals:

1984 - 47.3% (Connors 24.3%)
1980 - 38.8% (Borg 28.6%)
1981 - 34.8% (Borg 24.0%)
1982 - 34.4% (Connors 17.7%)
1983 - 28.1% (Lewis 20.0%)

No surprise that '84 is Mac's highest. But '84 turns out to be also Jimmy's highest, in 6 Wimb finals:

1984 - 24.3% (McEnroe 47.3%)
1974 - 22.8% (Rosewall 17.5%)
1975 - 21.4% (Ashe 32.4%)
1982 - 17.7% (McEnroe 34.4%)
1978 - 7.2% (Borg 28.2%)
1977 - 7.1% (Borg 30.8%)

 

[krosero]

Becker’s unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1986 – 39.8% (Lendl 37.0%)
1985 – 39.7% (Curren 40.1%)
1995 – 35.7% (Sampras 51.9%)
1991 – 35.1% (Stich 51.0%)
1988 – 34.1% (Edberg 33.1%)
1989 – 30.8% (Edberg 26.9%)
1990 – 27.6% (Edberg 31.6%)

Sampras’ unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1997 – 59.2% (Pioline 39.7%)
1994 – 53.5% (Ivanisevic 41.9%)
2000 – 52.3% (Rafter 39.5%)
1995 – 51.9% (Becker 35.7%)
1993 – 50.8% (Courier 30.1%)
1999 – 46.2% (Agassi 36.7%)
1998 – 45.8% (Ivanisevic 46.6%)

 

[NatF]

Becker’s unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1986 – 39.8% (Lendl 37.0%)
1985 – 39.7% (Curren 40.1%)
1995 – 35.7% (Sampras 51.9%)
1991 – 35.1% (Stich 51.0%)
1988 – 34.1% (Edberg 33.1%)
1989 – 30.8% (Edberg 26.9%)
1990 – 27.6% (Edberg 31.6%)

Sampras’ unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1997 – 59.2% (Pioline 39.7%)
1994 – 53.0% (Ivanisevic 42.7%)
2000 – 52.3% (Rafter 39.5%)
1995 – 51.9% (Becker 35.7%)
1993 – 50.8% (Courier 30.1%)
1999 – 46.2% (Agassi 36.7%)
1998 – 45.8% (Ivanisevic 46.6%)

Absurd numbers from Sampras lol.

 

[KG1965]

1979 - 33.6% (Tanner 31.1%)

Borg > Tanner

1980 - 28.6% (McEnroe 38.8%)
1981 - 24.0% (McEnroe 34.8%)

McEnroe >>> Borg

Mac 1984 - 47.3%

1984 - 47.3%
1980 - 38.8%
1981 - 34.8%
1982 - 34.4%

Mac > 34%

1978 - 7.2%
1977 - 7.1%

Connors (v Borg)

Becker’s unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1986 – 39.8%
1985 – 39.7%
1995 – 35.7%
1991 – 35.1%
1988 – 34.1%
1989 – 30.8%
1990 – 27.6%

Becker > 34%

Sampras’ unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

Pete > 45%
Unreal serve

 

[krosero]

Absurd numbers from Sampras lol.

Nobody else had numbers so high, not even Goran.

Ivanisevic in his 4 Wimbledon finals:

1992 – 48.8% (Agassi 25.6%)
1998 – 46.6% (Sampras 45.8%)
2001 – 45.1% (Rafter 40.7%)
1994 – 41.9% (Sampras 53.5%)


So if Goran never topped 50% in a Wimby final, and Krajicek didn't get 50 in his sole final either ('96), then unless I'm missing someone the only rates above 50% in a Wimbledon final are Sampras (5 times!), Stich in '91 (51.0%) and Federer in '17 (51.4% against Cilic).

 

[Moose Malloy]

Nobody else had numbers so high, not even Goran.

Ivanisevic in his 4 Wimbledon finals:

1992 – 48.8% (Agassi 25.6%)
1998 – 46.6% (Sampras 45.8%)
2001 – 45.1% (Rafter 40.7%)
1994 – 42.7% (Sampras 53.0%)


So if Goran never topped 50% in a Wimby final, and Krajicek didn't get 50 in his sole final either ('96), then unless I'm missing someone the only rates above 50% in a Wimbledon final are Sampras (5 times!) and Federer once (51.4% against Cilic).

You did list Stich at 51% upthread.

 

[krosero]

You did list Stich at 51% upthread.

Good catch, and btw I first calculated it using the boxscore here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/incorrect-atp-stats-a-survey.207411/#post-2819861

I wasn't sure whether those "service winners" already included the aces but it turns out that they do, since I got 51 and 40 total unreturned serves using TA as well (calculating from TA's number for returns put in play).

If those "service winners" in the boxscore had to be added to the aces it would have left Stich with 66 unreturned serves and a rate of 66%. Becker would be too high as well.

 

[krosero]

For a lot of these I used TA.

Federer in his 12 Wimbledon finals:

2017 – 51.4% (Cilic 32.2%)
2003 – 46.2% (Philippoussis 48.5%)
2009 – 44.7% (Roddick 41.0%)
2006 – 39.496% (Nadal 22.8%)
2007 – 37.2% (Nadal 19.2%)
2005 – 36.7% (Roddick 33.3%)
2014 – 34.9% (Djokovic 32.2%)
2008 – 34.4% (Nadal 26.1%)
2019 – 34.0% (Djokovic 23.3%)
2015 – 31.2% (Djokovic 33.1%)
2004 – 29.9% (Roddick 30.8%)
2012 – 22.1% (Murray 31.2%) (roofed closed midmatch)

I used stats by @abmk for '05, since TA's numbers look incomplete (but the difference is not large).


Djokovic in his 6 Wimbledon finals:

2018 – 36.2% (Anderson 31.3%)
2015 – 33.1% (Federer 31.2%)
2014 – 32.2% (Federer 34.9%)
2011 – 30.5% (Nadal 34.1%)
2019 – 23.3% (Federer 34.0%)
2013 – 16.2% (Murray 25.7%)


Murray kept both these guys' rates low.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Good catch, and btw I first calculated it using the boxscore here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/incorrect-atp-stats-a-survey.207411/#post-2819861

I wasn't sure whether those "service winners" already included the aces but it turns out that they do, since I got 51 and 40 total unreturned serves using TA as well (calculating from TA's number for returns put in play).

If those "service winners" in the boxscore had to be added to the aces it would have left Stich with 66 unreturned serves and a rate of 66%. Becker would be too high as well.

Abmk took stats on this match

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/stich-becker-wimbledon-1991-final-stats.593238/

 

[Heuristic]

Nobody else had numbers so high, not even Goran.

Ivanisevic in his 4 Wimbledon finals:

1992 – 48.8% (Agassi 25.6%)
1998 – 46.6% (Sampras 45.8%)
2001 – 45.1% (Rafter 40.7%)
1994 – 42.7% (Sampras 53.0%)


So if Goran never topped 50% in a Wimby final, and Krajicek didn't get 50 in his sole final either ('96), then unless I'm missing someone the only rates above 50% in a Wimbledon final are Sampras (5 times!), Stich in '91 (51.0%) and Federer in '17 (51.4% against Cilic).

ATP stats from the 90s are inaccurate

 

[krosero]

Abmk took stats on this match

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/stich-becker-wimbledon-1991-final-stats.593238/

Good, and I see in that thread that @slice serve ace got the same unreturned numbers, so those are confirmed multiple times over

 

[krosero]

Bonus "Wimbledon" final for Fed

2012 London Olympics - 24.4%, Murray 31.0%

(stats by @Waspsting)

 

[Waspsting]

Mac in his 5 Wimb finals...
1983 - 28.1% (Lewis 20.0%)

Surprising that Lewis has the highest return rate of these

NY times says Mac lost 9 point in 12 service games... at 28.1% unreturned serves - safely assuming there were no deuces - that'd give raw number of unreturned serves 16/57

Plenty of potential there for a humongous winners per game ratio for Mac... 1.5 at least. Shame that match isn't online

Sampras’ unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1997 – 59.2% (Pioline 39.7%)
1994 – 53.0% (Ivanisevic 42.7%)

I have slightly different numbers for these two matches

1997 - Sampras - same finding, but Pioline 30/78 @ 38.5%
1994 - Sampras 54/101 @ 53.5%, Ivanisevic 43/105 @ 41.0%
---

Not hard to see why authorities might have wanted to slow down the surface, looking at these Sampras numbers

 

[NonP]

K kids, you've forced me of my man (e-)cave. Here are the remaining URS rates in a Wimby final that I could dig up. You're welcome.

Cash:
1987 WIM F W Lendl - 49.4% (40/81), 4 aces, 2 DFs [26.7% (35/131), 6 aces, 6 DFs]

Hewitt:
2002 WIM F W Nalbandian - 25.3% (20/79), 5 aces, 2 DFs [14.6% (13/89), 2 aces, 7 DFs]

Murray:
2012 WIM F L Federer - 31.2% (49/157), 16 aces, 1 DF [22.1% (29/131), 12 aces, 3 DFs]
2013 WIM F W Djokovic – 25.7% (27/105), 9 aces, 2 DFs [16.2% (17/105), 4 aces, 4 DFs]
2016 WIM F W Raonic - 33.0% (34/103), 7 aces, 2 DFs [25.4% (29/114), 8 aces, 1 DF]

Nadal:
2006 WIM F L Federer - 22.8% (29/127), 9 aces, 3 DFs [39.5% (47/119), 13 aces, 1 DF]
2007 WIM F L Federer - [19.2% (32/167), 1 ace, 2 DFs [37.2% (58/156), 24 aces, 3 DFs]
2008 WIM F W Federer - 26.1% (57/218), 6 aces, 3 DFs [34.4% (67/195), 25 aces, 2 DFs]
2010 WIM F W Berdych - 34.4% (31/90), 5 aces, 3 DFs [32.1% (26/81), 13 aces, 0 DFs]
2011 WIM F L Djokovic - 34.1% (28/82), 5 aces, 1 DF [30.5% (29/95), 7 aces, 1 DF]

Newcombe:
1969 WIM F L Laver - 30.3% (40/132), 4 aces, 9 DFs [18.8% (24/128), 9 aces, 7 DFs]
1970 WIM F W Rosewall - 21.5% (34/158), 6 aces (1 on 2nd), 7 DFs [21.0% (30/143), 2 aces, 11 DFs]
1971 WIM F W Smith - 38.5% (57/148), 9 aces, 5 DFs [29.3% (44/150), 6 aces (2 on 2nd), 7 DFs]

Smith:
1971 WIM F L Newcombe - 29.3% (44/150), 6 aces (2 on 2nd), 7 DFs [38.5% (57/148), 9 aces, 5 DFs]
1972 WIM F W Nastase - 17.9% (32/179), 1 ace, 6 DFs [21.7% (34/157), 4 aces (1 on 2nd), 5 DFs]

Unless I'm mistaken we've now covered all the Open Wimby finals except for the very first one in '68 between Laver and Roche (can't believe I don't have this one already!) and the infamous '73 boycott round between Kodes and Metreveli. Get to work, you bums!

Will merge 'em all into one big fat post when I have time. Or maybe one of you lazy schmucks can pick up the slack.

Sampras’ unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1997 – 59.2% (Pioline 39.7%)
1994 – 53.0% (Ivanisevic 42.7%)
2000 – 52.3% (Rafter 39.5%)
1995 – 51.9% (Becker 35.7%)
1993 – 50.8% (Courier 30.1%)
1999 – 46.2% (Agassi 36.7%)
1998 – 45.8% (Ivanisevic 46.6%)

Absurd numbers from Sampras lol.

Pete > 45%
Unreal serve

Nobody else had numbers so high, not even Goran.

Ivanisevic in his 4 Wimbledon finals:

1992 – 48.8% (Agassi 25.6%)
1998 – 46.6% (Sampras 45.8%)
2001 – 45.1% (Rafter 40.7%)
1994 – 42.7% (Sampras 53.0%)


So if Goran never topped 50% in a Wimby final, and Krajicek didn't get 50 in his sole final either ('96), then unless I'm missing someone the only rates above 50% in a Wimbledon final are Sampras (5 times!), Stich in '91 (51.0%) and Federer in '17 (51.4% against Cilic).

But don't you understand, the Sampras serve is the most overrated shot in history. The numbers prove it!

For a lot of these I used TA.

Federer in his 12 Wimbledon finals:

2017 – 51.4% (Cilic 32.2%)
2003 – 46.2% (Philippoussis 48.5%)
2009 – 44.7% (Roddick 41.0%)
2006 – 39.4% (Nadal 22.8%)
2007 – 37.2% (Nadal 19.2%)
2005 – 36.7% (Roddick 33.3%)
2014 – 34.9% (Djokovic 32.2%)
2008 – 34.4% (Nadal 26.1%)
2019 – 34.0% (Djokovic 23.3%)
2015 – 31.2% (Djokovic 33.1%)
2004 – 29.9% (Roddick 30.8%)
2012 – 22.1% (Murray 31.2%)

I used stats by @AMBK for '05, since TA's numbers look incomplete (but the difference is not large).


Djokovic in his 6 Wimbledon finals:

2018 – 36.2% (Anderson 31.3%)
2015 – 33.1% (Federer 31.2%)
2014 – 32.2% (Federer 34.9%)
2011 – 30.5% (Nadal 34.1%)
2019 – 23.3% (Federer 34.0%)
2013 – 16.2% (Murray 25.7%)


Murray kept both these guys' rates low.

And you know who was the only one in all of Fed's Wimby Vs who managed to keep his % of 2nd-serve points won under 50%? That's why I like to say, despite my Djoko fandom, that Muzz is the best returner of his generation. His "bendiness" makes it hard even for the likes of Karlovic and Raonic to get the ball past him, and good as Novak is he's no Agassi when it comes to doing max damage with the ball he does get his racquet on. Advantage Murray.

Also a slight correction: Fed's URS rate in the '06 final is 39.5%, not 39.4% And you may wanna correct the # of Cash's total DFs in your overview of the '87 final (I've included the link for that purpose).

Update on 8/10: added Murray's '12 and '13 stats for completeness' sake along with the URS numbers for the '10 final (hat tip to krosero).

 

[Heuristic]

But don't you understand, the Sampras serve is the most overrated shot in history. The numbers prove it!

The numbers are wrong according to you, when they don't support Sampras. When they do, the ATP 90s stats are right

 

[krosero]

Surprising that Lewis has the highest return rate of these

NY times says Mac lost 9 point in 12 service games... at 28.1% unreturned serves - safely assuming there were no deuces - that'd give raw number of unreturned serves 16/57

Plenty of potential there for a humongous winners per game ratio for Mac... 1.5 at least. Shame that match isn't online



I have slightly different numbers for these two matches

1997 - Sampras - same finding, but Pioline 30/78 @ 38.5%
1994 - Sampras 54/101 @ 53.5%, Ivanisevic 43/105 @ 41.0%
---

Not hard to see why authorities might have wanted to slow down the surface, looking at these Sampras numbers

Yes, 16/57 is what TA has for Mac against Lewis.

Surprising that Lewis did so well, but Mac's serving level was probably not 100% that day, since had zero clean aces. That's a rare thing in a Wimbledon final, though of course he did serve very well overall. Maybe he just kept his foot on the pedal at only 95% capacity, since Lewis was obviously no threat.

@slice serve ace had Pioline at 31/78 unreturned, Sampras 45/76. That lines up with a boxscore in the Palm Beach Post that gave Pioline 31 "service winners" and Sampras 45.

For '94, Slice had Sampras 53/100 and Goran 44/103, slightly different from yours. You and he both have a total of 97 unreturned serves, but a boxscore in the American press has 98 (Sampras 54, Goran 44). Might be worth checking to see what TA has.

In any case you have a total of 206 points played, which looks right to me because that's the number you'd get if you took the ATP's (incorrect) total number of points played, 259, and subtracted all the aces/df's once. I haven't used the ATP stats for any of these calculations (obviously none of us have), but occasionally I try to correct them like this, if there's a discrepancy among our own stats. But better would be to check TA's stats, or another statistician's.

 

[krosero]

K kids, you've forced me of my man (e-)cave. Here are the remaining URS rates in a Wimby final that I could dig up. You're welcome.

Cash:
1987 WIM F W Lendl - 49.4% (40/81), 4 aces, 2 DFs [26.7% (35/131), 6 aces, 6 DFs]

Hewitt:
2002 WIM F W Nalbaldnain - 25.3% (20/79), 5 aces, 2 DFs [14.6% (13/89), 2 aces, 7 DFs]

Murray:
2016 WIM F W Raonic - 33.0% (34/103), 7 aces, 2 DFs [25.4% (29/114), 8 aces, 1 DF]

Nadal:
2006 WIM F L Federer - 22.8% (29/127), 9 aces, 3 DFs [39.5% (47/119), 13 aces, 1 DF]
2007 WIM F L Federer - [19.2% (32/167), 1 ace, 2 DFs [37.2% (58/156), 24 aces, 3 DFs]
2008 WIM F W Federer - 26.1% (57/218), 6 aces, 3 DFs [34.4% (67/195), 25 aces, 2 DFs]
2010 WIM F W Berdych (URS rates missing!) - ??% (??/90), 5 aces, 3 DFs [??%, (??/81), 13 aces, 0 DFs]
2011 WIM F L Djokovic - 34.1% (28/82), 5 aces, 1 DF [30.5% (29/95), 7 aces, 1 DF]

Newcombe:
1969 WIM F L Laver - 30.3% (40/132), 4 aces, 9 DFs [18.8% (24/128), 9 aces, 7 DFs]
1970 WIM F W Rosewall - 21.5% (34/158), 6 aces (1 on 2nd), 7 DFs [21.0% (30/143), 2 aces, 11 DFs]
1971 WIM F W Smith - 38.5% (57/148), 9 aces, 5 DFs [29.3% (44/150), 6 aces (2 on 2nd), 7 DFs]

Smith:
1971 WIM F L Newcombe - 29.3% (44/150), 6 aces (2 on 2nd), 7 DFs [38.5% (57/148), 9 aces, 5 DFs]
1972 WIM F W Nastase - 17.9% (32/179), 1 ace, 6 DFs [21.7% (34/157), 4 aces (1 on 2nd), 5 DFs]

Unless I'm mistaken we've now covered all the Open Wimby finals except for the very first one in '68 between Laver and Roche (can't believe I don't have this one already!), the '10 dullfest between Rafa and Tomas (ditto) and the infamous '73 boycott round between Kodes and Metreveli. Get to work, you bums!

Will merge 'em all into one big fat post when I have time. Or maybe one of you lazy schmucks can pick up the slack.






But don't you understand, the Sampras serve is the most overrated shot in history. The numbers prove it!



And as you know who was the only one in all of Fed's Wimby Vs who managed to keep his % of 2nd-serve points won under 50%? That's why I like to say, despite my Djoko fandom, that Muzz is the best returner of his generation. His "bendiness" makes it hard even for the likes of Karlovic and Raonic to get the ball past him, and good as Novak is he's no Agassi when it comes to doing max damage with the ball he does get his racquet on. Advantage Murray.

Also a slight correction: Fed's URS rate in the '06 final is 39.5%, not 39.4% And you may wanna correct the # of Cash's total DFs in your overview of the '87 final (I've included the link for that purpose).

Agreed on all points. I expected Sampras to have great numbers in Wimbledon finals but the numbers are astonishing when listed together. Just a masterclass in bringing the heat in the biggest matches. As for Murray, it looks like he out-scored all of his opponents in Wimbledon finals in unreturned %: Federer, Djokovic, and Raonic. (Federer twice if you count London Olympics.) That's a masterclass in returning.

Thanks for the corrections, edits made.

For 2010 Wimb, TA has Nadal 31/90 unreturned (34.4%) and Berdych 26/81 (32.1%).

 

[NonP]

The numbers are wrong according to you, when they don't support Sampras. When they do, the ATP 90s stats are right

These numbers don't come from the ATP, but rather from several devoted fans who undertake this painstaking and time-consuming work because unreturned serves have never been part of the standard match stats in tennis. You'd know this if you ever cared to read or learn because those links I gave you the other day should've given you a full primer on this very stat, but for some reason you prefer to stick your head in the sand. Again stop wasting people's time if you're that utterly incapable of absorbing new information.

@slice serve ace had Pioline at 31/78 unreturned, Sampras 45/76. That lines up with a boxscore in the Palm Beach Post that gave Pioline 31 "service winners" and Sampras 45.

For '94, Slice had Sampras 53/100 and Goran 44/103, slightly different from yours. You and he both have a total of 97 unreturned serves, but a boxscore in the American press has 98 (Sampras 54, Goran 44). Might be worth checking to see what TA has.

In any case you have a total of 206 points played, which looks right to me because that's the number you'd get if you took the ATP's (incorrect) total number of points played, 259, and subtracted all the aces/df's once. I haven't used the ATP stats for any of these calculations (obviously none of us have), but occasionally I try to correct them like this, if there's a discrepancy among our own stats. But better would be to check TA's stats, or another statistician's.

Pretty sure @slice serve ace got it right for the '97 final, cuz I once took stats for that match myself and though my #s for Pete didn't agree with slice's I don't remember any discrepancy regarding Pioline.

But for the '94 final TA does have the same total # of points (206) as @Waspsting but also the same URS total (98) as the box score:

1994 Wimbledon F: Pete Sampras vs Goran Ivanisevic Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

(BTW I didn't know you could arrive at a player's URS total from those TA charts by subtracting the # of his opponent's inPlay returns from the player's total # of service points and then his # of DFs. Wonder why they don't just show this under the Unret---% column.)

So this seems to be a rare case where slice made a mistake. I'm going with 53.5% (54/101) for Pete and 41.9% (44/105) for Goran. Will try to confirm when I revisit the match sometime.

Agreed on all points. I expected Sampras to have great numbers in Wimbledon finals but the numbers are astonishing when listed together. Just a masterclass in bringing the heat in the biggest matches. As for Murray, it looks like he out-scored all of his opponents in Wimbledon finals in unreturned %: Federer, Djokovic, and Raonic. (Federer twice if you count London Olympics.) That's a masterclass in returning.

There's a reason why Pete remains almost certainly the only Wimbledon champ who held serve even more often in his victorious finals than in all the rounds combined (96.9% vs. 95.5%) and also the only one who cracked the 90% ceiling, let alone a whopping 96%! If that doesn't convince you that Pistol rarely called on his top gear except in major finals I don't know what will.

And yeah I've long pushed Murray as the best returner since Agassi despite all the accolades showered on Novak (who remains my current fave). slice once went through the Big 4 (minus Rafa)'s records to see when they'd been aced 20 times or more and couldn't find a single match where Muzz got the oops treatment more than 30 times (as opposed to once each for Fed and Novak back in March 2012). Wonder if that has held true since then?

Of course there's more to returning than simply getting the ball back. I've recently noticed in this forum that there seems to be this growing and frankly amusing tendency to downgrade Agassi's return because the guy (supposedly) got aced way too often. As you know Jimbo and even Novak, two other perennial GROAT candidates, aren't really known for being impenetrable human walls (at least on return) either, but apparently according to these geniuses getting aced 20 times but doing little on the rest of returns apart from starting the point a la Borg (to put it very crudely) is better than getting aced 30 times but returning the ball with interest like Agassi. Never mind that # of aces rarely tells the full or even big story, as our URS tallies strongly suggest. And the funny thing is they're the ones who insist on fact-based analysis when their half-baked "debunking" is anything but and it's usually the quiet ones who are doing most of the heavy lifting. A snapshot of what goes on in the real world, you could say.

Thanks for the corrections, edits made.

For 2010 Wimb, TA has Nadal 31/90 unreturned (34.4%) and Berdych 26/81 (32.1%).

See above. When I saw nothing but zeroes under Unret---% for the '10 final I thought that was that, but I figured out the somewhat convoluted way of calculating the URS total after you gave another shout-out to TA. Gracias!

 

[Pistol10]

I've noticed that among the zillion GOAT threads in this forum

OP complains in 2010 !

 

[Pistol10]

Sampras blasts through Rafter's racquet with a serve. Literally. The ball hits Rafter's racquet just below the sweet spot... and the ball breaks through the strings on its way through. I've never seen or heard of anything like this.... neither had any of the commentators

Rafter injures his shoulder... from returning Sampras' serve. His serve speed drops at the start of the second set and his shoulder is treated at the change over. The commentators make enquiries, and Rafter himself explains after the match that he got a twinge in the shoulder from coming down late on Sampras' serve. Have you ever heard of a player needing treatment because returning serve has jarred their arm?

Sampras + 90's courts !

Novak & Andy would do better than Agassi, and with their lighter rackets!!!!!!

 

[krosero]

These numbers don't come from the ATP, but rather from several devoted fans who undertake this painstaking and time-consuming work because unreturned serves have never been part of the standard match stats in tennis. You'd know this if you ever cared to read or learn because those links I gave you the other day should've given you a full primer on this very stat, but for some reason you prefer to stick your head in the sand. Again stop wasting people's time if you're that utterly incapable of absorbing new information.



Pretty sure @slice serve ace got it right for the '97 final, cuz I once took stats for that match myself and though my #s for Pete didn't agree with slice's I don't remember any discrepancy regarding Pioline.

But for the '94 final TA does have the same total # of points (206) as @Waspsting but also the same URS total (98) as the box score:

1994 Wimbledon F: Pete Sampras vs Goran Ivanisevic Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

(BTW I didn't know you could arrive at a player's URS total from those TA charts by subtracting the # of his opponent's inPlay returns from the player's total # of service points and then his # of DFs. Wonder why they don't just show this under the Unret---% column.)

So this seems to be a rare case where slice made a mistake. I'm going with 53.5% (54/101) for Pete and 41.9% (44/105) for Goran. Will try to confirm when I revisit the match sometime.



There's a reason why Pete remains almost certainly the only Wimbledon champ who held serve even more often in his victorious finals than in all the rounds combined (96.9% vs. 95.5%) and also the only one who cracked the 90% ceiling, let alone a whopping 96%! If that doesn't convince you that Pistol rarely called on his top gear except in major finals I don't know what will.

And yeah I've long pushed Murray as the best returner since Agassi despite all the accolades showered on Novak (who remains my current fave). slice once went through the Big 4 (minus Rafa)'s records to see when they'd been aced 20 times or more and couldn't find a single match where Muzz got the oops treatment more than 30 times (as opposed to once each for Fed and Novak back in March 2012). Wonder if that has held true since then?

Of course there's more to returning than simply getting the ball back. I've recently noticed in this forum that there seems to be this growing and frankly amusing tendency to downgrade Agassi's return because the guy (supposedly) got aced way too often. As you know Jimbo and even Novak, two other perennial GROAT candidates, aren't really known for being impenetrable human walls (at least on return) either, but apparently according to these geniuses getting aced 20 times but doing little on the rest of returns apart from starting the point a la Borg (to put it very crudely) is better than getting aced 30 times but returning the ball with interest like Agassi. Never mind that # of aces rarely tells the full or even big story, as our URS tallies strongly suggest. And the funny thing is they're the ones who insist on fact-based analysis when their half-baked "debunking" is anything but and it's usually the quiet ones who are doing most of the heavy lifting. A snapshot of what goes on in the real world, you could say.







See above. When I saw nothing but zeroes under Unret---% for the '10 final I thought that was that, but I figured out the somewhat convoluted way of calculating the URS total after you gave another shout-out to TA. Gracias!

I'll go with those numbers for '94 as well.

Yeah it's not hard to find matches in which Connors was aced a lot. Maybe Murray is aced less and that's one strength of a returner, and one style of returning. But Connors' strength (and Agassi's) was his greats hands and aggression when he got his racquet on the ball.

I think TA's "Unret---%" column is a special category for non-ace serves that are judged to be unreturnable.

Then their "inPlay---%" column lists all the returns in play, both as a total and as a percentage of all serves judged to be returnable. It's just a different emphasis from what we're counting, though I do wish they had the total unreturned just listed somewhere.

By the way do you have my stats for this match, from 1986 Davis Cup final:

Cash served on 160 points, and 48 serves did not come back: 30.0%
Pernfors served on 148 points, and 40 serves did not come back: 27.0%

Some stats for 1986 Davis Cup final (Cash-Pernfors)

This is one of the best grass-court matches I've seen: a true contrast of styles, a great comeback, and the underdog playing in the zone. Score: Cash d. Pernfors 2-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4, 6-3 (46 games) The match was played at Kooyong Stadium, a month before the Australian Open was held there...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

So I went looking for Lendl-Pernfors (86 RG) stats at TA:

1986 Roland Garros F: Mikael Pernfors vs Ivan Lendl Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

But it looks like their coverage of the match is very incomplete. They have only 164 points played, but a boxscore reported 192 points (and it's a very detailed boxscore).

I'm not sure but I could not see anywhere indicating that a TA-charted match is incomplete. So for any data I get from TA, I've just checked the total points, or total points served and whatnot, against other sources. That's how I noticed that they were missing 6 Roddick service points in the '05 Wimb final.

 

[xFedal]

K kids, you've forced me of my man (e-)cave. Here are the remaining URS rates in a Wimby final that I could dig up. You're welcome.

Cash:
1987 WIM F W Lendl - 49.4% (40/81), 4 aces, 2 DFs [26.7% (35/131), 6 aces, 6 DFs]

Hewitt:
2002 WIM F W Nalbandian - 25.3% (20/79), 5 aces, 2 DFs [14.6% (13/89), 2 aces, 7 DFs]

Murray:
2012 WIM F L Federer - 31.2% (49/157), 16 aces, 1 DF [22.1% (29/131), 12 aces, 3 DFs]
2013 WIM F W Djokovic – 25.7% (27/105), 9 aces, 2 DFs [16.2% (17/105), 4 aces, 4 DFs]
2016 WIM F W Raonic - 33.0% (34/103), 7 aces, 2 DFs [25.4% (29/114), 8 aces, 1 DF]

Nadal:
2006 WIM F L Federer - 22.8% (29/127), 9 aces, 3 DFs [39.5% (47/119), 13 aces, 1 DF]
2007 WIM F L Federer - [19.2% (32/167), 1 ace, 2 DFs [37.2% (58/156), 24 aces, 3 DFs]
2008 WIM F W Federer - 26.1% (57/218), 6 aces, 3 DFs [34.4% (67/195), 25 aces, 2 DFs]
2010 WIM F W Berdych - 34.4% (31/90), 5 aces, 3 DFs [32.1% (26/81), 13 aces, 0 DFs]
2011 WIM F L Djokovic - 34.1% (28/82), 5 aces, 1 DF [30.5% (29/95), 7 aces, 1 DF]

Newcombe:
1969 WIM F L Laver - 30.3% (40/132), 4 aces, 9 DFs [18.8% (24/128), 9 aces, 7 DFs]
1970 WIM F W Rosewall - 21.5% (34/158), 6 aces (1 on 2nd), 7 DFs [21.0% (30/143), 2 aces, 11 DFs]
1971 WIM F W Smith - 38.5% (57/148), 9 aces, 5 DFs [29.3% (44/150), 6 aces (2 on 2nd), 7 DFs]

Smith:
1971 WIM F L Newcombe - 29.3% (44/150), 6 aces (2 on 2nd), 7 DFs [38.5% (57/148), 9 aces, 5 DFs]
1972 WIM F W Nastase - 17.9% (32/179), 1 ace, 6 DFs [21.7% (34/157), 4 aces (1 on 2nd), 5 DFs]

Unless I'm mistaken we've now covered all the Open Wimby finals except for the very first one in '68 between Laver and Roche (can't believe I don't have this one already!) and the infamous '73 boycott round between Kodes and Metreveli. Get to work, you bums!

Will merge 'em all into one big fat post when I have time. Or maybe one of you lazy schmucks can pick up the slack.






But don't you understand, the Sampras serve is the most overrated shot in history. The numbers prove it!



And you know who was the only one in all of Fed's Wimby Vs who managed to keep his % of 2nd-serve points won under 50%? That's why I like to say, despite my Djoko fandom, that Muzz is the best returner of his generation. His "bendiness" makes it hard even for the likes of Karlovic and Raonic to get the ball past him, and good as Novak is he's no Agassi when it comes to doing max damage with the ball he does get his racquet on. Advantage Murray.

Also a slight correction: Fed's URS rate in the '06 final is 39.5%, not 39.4% And you may wanna correct the # of Cash's total DFs in your overview of the '87 final (I've included the link for that purpose).

Update on 8/10: added Murray's '12 and '13 stats for completeness' sake along with the URS numbers for the '10 final (hat tip to krosero).

Becker’s unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1986 – 39.8% (Lendl 37.0%)
1985 – 39.7% (Curren 40.1%)
1995 – 35.7% (Sampras 51.9%)
1991 – 35.1% (Stich 51.0%)
1988 – 34.1% (Edberg 33.1%)
1989 – 30.8% (Edberg 26.9%)
1990 – 27.6% (Edberg 31.6%)

Sampras’ unreturned rates in his 7 Wimbledon finals:

1997 – 59.2% (Pioline 39.7%)
1994 – 53.5% (Ivanisevic 41.9%)
2000 – 52.3% (Rafter 39.5%)
1995 – 51.9% (Becker 35.7%)
1993 – 50.8% (Courier 30.1%)
1999 – 46.2% (Agassi 36.7%)
1998 – 45.8% (Ivanisevic 46.6%)

Hi guys.... have a look at this....:

PEAK FOR PEAK

GORAN serve stats BEST 1ST SERVE YEARS

1996 SEASON - M/W 77/26 75% .... Ace rate 19.7% - 1st serve points won 85.5% 2nd Serve points won 51.8% .....Service Games won 89.2%
1992 SEASON - M/W 61-19 (76%) ....Ace rate 16.2% -1st serve points won 84% --- 2nd Serve points won 53% .....Service Games won 88.8%
1997 SEASON - M/W 53/22 71% ,,,,,,Ace rate 18% - 1st serve points won 83.5% --- 2nd Serve points won 50.1% .....Service Games won 87.5%
1998 SEASON - M/W 44-28 (61%) ,,,,,Ace rate 16.7% -1st serve points won 83.5% --- 2nd Serve points won 46.9% .....Service Games won 85.7%

Notes - Goran had a massive 1st serve possibly better than Ivo at his peak, see 1996 season above....... 2nd serve numbers and service games won are not that impressive at all... never breached 90% service games won.....


IVO SERVE STATS 1ST SERVE SPECIFICALLY ......

2009 SEASON - M/W 23-23 (50%) - Ace rate 26.1% ....1st serve points won 84.8% .... 2nd Serve points won 53.6% .... Service Games won 92.2%
2015 SEASON - M/W 38-25 (60%) - Ace rate 27.0% ..1st serve points won 84.6% .... 2nd Serve points won 57.0% .... Service Games won 95.5%
2014 SEASON - M/W 36-28 (56%) - Ace rate 24.8% ....1st serve points won 84.1% .... 2nd Serve points won 54.4% .... Service Games won 92.7%
2003 SEASON - M/W 37-23 (62%) - Ace rate 19.1% ..1st serve points won 84.1% .... 2nd Serve points won 53.6% .... Service Games won 91.6%

Notes - IVO doesn't have the highest 1st serve points won year but he has hit 84% 1st serve points or better 4 times in his career which is the highest x4.

Andy Roddick best 1st serve points won year 2005 81.5%

Pete 1996 & 1998 - 83% 1st serve points won....

But wait whats this > > ? We've FINALLY found the MONSTER...... Richard Krajicek


Richard Krajicek - SEASON 1997 M/W 49-19 (72%) - 1ST SERVE POINTS WON 85.6% HIGHEST I'VE SEEN SO FAR

POUND FOR POUND WHO HAD THE BETTER 1ST SERVE THAN 1997 KRAJICEK?

 

[xFedal]

Best SERVER ever at WIMBLEDON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (THE HOLY GRAIL OF TENNIS)
Pete Sampras career 1st serve points won at Wimby - 86.7% .....HOLD RATE 94.2 %
Ivo Karlovic career 1st serve points won at Wimby 84.7% .....Hold Rate 93.8%
Federer career 1st Serve points won at Wimby 79.9%....Hold Rate 93.6%
Goran Career 1st serve points won at Wimby 88.3% ....Hold Rate 92.3%
Krajicek Career 1st serve points won at Wimby 85.3% ....Hold Rate 91.5%

Pete Sampras is WIMBLEDONS BEST SERVER......

 

[Moose Malloy]

@NonP I took stats on the 68 and 73 W finals. Thought I emailed krosero those, but not sure.

@krosero that's a shame about TA posting stats for incomplete matches.

 

[krosero]

@NonP I took stats on the 68 and 73 W finals. Thought I emailed krosero those, but not sure.

@krosero that's a shame about TA posting stats for incomplete matches.

Can you email me or post those matches, I don't have them.

It looks like TA's coverage of 2012 USO final (Murray-Djokovic) is incomplete too. They have Murray serving 141 points, Djokovic 161. Official stats have 150 and 165 respectively.

2012 US Open F: Novak Djokovic vs Andy Murray Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

By the way this doesn't change any stats I've posted so far. Like I said above if I've used TA to get unreturned serves, I've checked their total-points against other sources.

Here's two Chicago Tribune excerpts if you haven't seen them.

McEnroe-Wilander, 9-7, 6-2, 15-17, 3-6, 8-6 (1982 Davis Cup)

For two sets, McEnroe’s serve dominated the match. He lost only 15 points in his 12 service games in the first two sets. He won 46 points while serving in that stretch, and 26 of them came either on aces or other unreturned serves….​

McEnroe-Connors, 6-2, 6-4, 6-1 (1981 Challenge of Champions final in the Rosemont Horizon in Chicago)

Rallies didn’t last long when McEnroe served. McEnroe won 55 points while serving, 13 of which came on aces, and 22 on other unreturned serves.​

 

[Moose Malloy]

Can you email me or post those matches, I don't have them.

It looks like TA's coverage of 2012 USO final (Murray-Djokovic) is incomplete too. They have Murray serving 141 points, Djokovic 161. Official stats have 150 and 165 respectively.

2012 US Open F: Novak Djokovic vs Andy Murray Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

By the way this doesn't change any stats I've posted so far. Like I said above if I've used TA to get unreturned serves, I've checked their total-points against other sources.

Here's two Chicago Tribune excerpts if you haven't seen them.

McEnroe-Wilander, 9-7, 6-2, 15-17, 3-6, 8-6 (1982 Davis Cup)

For two sets, McEnroe’s serve dominated the match. He lost only 15 points in his 12 service games in the first two sets. He won 46 points while serving in that stretch, and 26 of them came either on aces or other unreturned serves….​

McEnroe-Connors, 6-2, 7-5 (January 1981 Masters RR)

Rallies didn’t last long when McEnroe served. McEnroe won 55 points while serving, 13 of which came on aces, and 22 on other unreturned serves.​

Those stats for 81 Masters Mac Connors are rather bizarre. I took stats for that match, had Mac with 3 aces and 11 other unreturned serves. I also had Mac winning 42 points on serve, not 55. Commentators said it was a slow surface.

 

[krosero]

Those stats for 81 Masters Mac Connors are rather bizarre. I took stats for that match, had Mac with 3 aces and 11 other unreturned serves. I also had Mac winning 42 points on serve, not 55. Commentators said it was a slow surface.

My mistake, the date of the article is January 12, 1981 so I presumed the YEC Masters, but it was actually the final of the Challenge of Champions (in the Rosemont Horizon in Chicago). Mac won 6-2, 6-4, 6-1.

 

[krosero]

I've been checking out Voo de Mar's match-charting project, and he has unreturned serves for the last 3 sets of Becker-Stich at 1993 Wimbledon (QF). Becker won 7-5, 6-7 (5), 6-7 (5), 6-2, 6-4 without losing his serve.

wb93becker_krajicek02 | The History of Men's Tennis (Open Era)

Like I said he only did the last 3 sets, but I've got numbers for the first two sets (I did Becker's a few years ago and never finished charting the match.)

Combining Voo's numbers with mine:

Becker served on 179 points, and 77 serves did not come back: 43.2%
Stich served on 190 points, and 67 serves did not come back: 35.3%

Becker's numbers stayed steady throughout the match; I have him at 42% in the first two sets, Voo has him 44% in the last 3. But I have Stich way up at 51.3% in the first two sets, while Voo has him 24.1% in the last 3.

Anyway Becker's full-match rate of 43.2%, if accurate, is one of the best I have for him. [Edit: these numbers are corrected in later posts below.]

In GS and Davis Cup, I know of three higher (but other posters may know of more):

50.4% against Leconte, 1986 Wimb SF
49.3% against Wilander, 1989 Davis Cup final
48.2% against Leconte, 1985 Wimb SF

(Edited Becker's unreturned rate against Wilander)

 

[krosero]

Wheaton d. Lendl, 1991 Wimbledon, R32,
6-3, 3-6, 7-6 (8-6), 6-3

Rutland Daily Herald:

Stat of the Day: Wheaton and Lendl had 115 service winners, including aces, between them in their four set match. Wheaton had 16 aces in his 60 service winners and Lendl had 14 aces in his 55 service winners.​

ATP's double-counting of aces and df's didn't start until '92 as far as we know, so for this one we can use the ATP stats.

Wheaton served 131 points, with 16 aces and 5 df’s.
Lendl served 132 points, with 14 aces and 1 df.

Wheaton 60 unreturned serves, 45.8%
Lendl 55 unreturned serves, 41.7%

 

[NonP]

Here it is, an overdue update of our ranking with a seismic shuffling (I've retained links to some of the candidates' rates of unreturned serves where available though many of the lists need an update of their own):

1. Sampras
2. Ivanisevic
3. Karlovic
4. Gonzales
5. Krajicek
6. Arthurs
7. Roddick
8. Newcombe
9. Isner
10. Becker
11. Philippoussis
12. Zivojinovic
13. McEnroe
14. Raonic
15. Curren
16. Stich
17. Tanner
18. Federer
19. Rusedski
20. Muller

The Honorary Hall of Fame (by order of birth only):

• McLoughlin, Maurice - perhaps the first distinguished cannonball serve in tennis history
• Tilden - yet another storied power serve, which he bolstered with spin and accuracy
• Doeg, John - Ivanisevic to Vines' Sampras, a southpaw whose serve was considered one of the two or three greatest ever in his heyday
• Stoefen, Lester - one of the first giants with a feared high-rise rocket launcher
• Vines - by many accounts, the best and fastest serve of the pre-WWII era
• Kramer - in addition to a formidable first delivery, perhaps the best second serve before Newcombe and Sampras
• Denton - his unusual service motion notwithstanding, an ace dispenser that could bring enormous heat
• Edberg - for his iconic kicker (any logo ring a bell?), arguably the best ever for serve-and-volley
• Johansson, Joachim - Denton of the aughts

And a few potential additions, with the year of birth in parentheses (I suppose we're still looking to cover all of tennis history, no?):

• Bob Falkenburg (1926)
• Mike Sangster (1940)
• Colin Dibley (1944)
• John Feaver (1952)
• Victor Amaya (1954)
• Kevin Anderson (1986)
• Sam Querrey (1987)
• Nick Kyrgios (1995)

As you can see Pistol Pete now sits on top of the ladder. For all these years I'd believed, my unmistakable Sampras fandom notwithstanding, that my boy is a slight notch below Goran and Ivo as a pure server, and I still think the latter two's 1st serve makes them potentially deadlier on a shot-by-shot basis, but the latest discussion of Pete's eye-popping URS numbers in his seven Wimbledon finals vs. those of his great peers made me seriously rethink my long-held pecking order. Let's take a closer look at his career Slam finals:

1993 WIM F W Courier - 50.8% (61/120), 22 aces, 6 DFs [30.1% (41/136), 54.4% (74/136) 1st, 9 aces, 6 DFs]
1994 WIM F W Ivanisevic - 53.5% (54/101), 17 aces, 5 DFs [41.9% (44/105), 25 aces, 6 DFs]
1995 WIM F W Becker - 51.9% (55/106), 23 aces, 7 DFs [35.7% (50/140), 16 aces, 15 DFs]
1997 WIM F W Pioline - 59.2% (45/76), 17 aces, 2 DFs [39.7% (31/78), 13 aces, 1 DF]
1998 WIM F W Ivanisevic - 45.8% (71/155), 12 aces, 8 DFs [47.2% (84/178), 32 aces, 20 DFs]
1999 WIM F W Agassi - 46.2% (43/93), 16 aces, 5 DFs [36.7% (36/98), 5 aces, 6 DFs]
2000 WIM F W Rafter - 52.3% (69/132), 27 aces, 12 DFs [39.5% (66/167), 12 aces, 8 DFs]
Career WIM Fs - 50.8% (398/783)

1990 USO F W Agassi - 41.7% (30/72), 13 aces, 1 DF [15% (15/100), 0 aces, 1 DF]
*1992 USO F L Edberg - 29.6% (40/135?), 10 aces, 11 DFs [30.6% (37?/121), 8 aces, 5 DFs]
1993 USO F W Pioline - 47.1% (33/70), 12 aces, 4 DFs [25.5% (26/102), 7 aces, 8 DFs]
1995 USO F W Agassi - 47.1% (57/121), 24 aces, 6 DFs [25.2% (29/115), 8 aces, 5 DFs]
1996 USO F W Chang - 38.9% (37/95), 13 aces, 4 DFs [??% (??/75), 11 aces, 3 DFs]
2000 USO F L Safin - 44.3% (35/79), 8 aces, 4 DFs [30.5% (25/82), 12 aces, 2 DFs]
2001 USO F L Hewitt – 33.3% (33/99), 11 aces, 6 DFs [32.5% (25/77), 7 aces, 5 DFs]
2002 USO F W Agassi - 44.1% (67/152), 33 aces, 13 DFs [29.6% (37/125), 7 aces, 4 DFs]
Career USO Fs - 40.3% (332/823)

1994 AO F W Martin - 34.9% (38/109), 54.1% (59/109) 1st, 13 aces, 7 DFs [26.4% (29/110), 50.9% (56/110) 1st, 6 aces, 4 DFs]
1995 AO F L Agassi - 41.0% (57/139), 51.1% (71/139) 1st, 28 aces, 6 DFs [30.5% (36/118), 69.5% (82/118) 1st, 10 aces, 4 DFs]
1997 AO F W Moya - 43.5% (30/69), 72.5% 1st, 12 aces, 2 DFs [29.1% (23/79), 63.3% 1st, 2 aces, 3 DFs]
Career AO Fs - 39.4% (125/317)

Career GS Fs - 44.5% (855/1923), 46.9% (690/1471) in Fs won

(*My numbers for the '92 USO final conflict with both @abmk's and TA's, hence the question marks.)

That's almost 45% for his whole career, close to 47% if we take only the finals won. As you may know from @slice serve ace's URS primer a player is awfully tough to break when he gets 45% of his serves unreturned. When he scores above 50%, virtually unbreakable (no wonder Pete won a whopping 96.9% of his service games in his Wimby finals!).

We also know from our fair-sized samples for Ivanisevic and Karlovic that even they don't crack 45-50% every day, and that even their numbers drop vs. top competition, let alone on the biggest stage that is a GS final. AND we know, despite all the moaning about the slowed-down courts of today, that players are holding serve more often than ever thanks largely to the extra spin provided by newer racquets. Put these facts together and it's hard to imagine either Goran or Ivo doing much better than Sampras vs. the same opponents with more or less the same equipment, and in Goran's case at least with respect to Wimbledon we don't even have to guess as we know he didn't crack 50% in any of his four finals. (Granted he was twice up against arguably the single best grass-courter in history and once against arguably the best returner ever, but at the same time we know Goran could implode at any moment against any opponent.)

Since I've long strived to rate these serves as stand-alone shots I've resisted putting too much stock in the so-called clutch factor, but there's much to be said for reliability in the biggest matches and at this point it's hard to deny that Sampras was and remains almost certainly the single greatest server of the Open Era and quite possibly ever. His standing as such among tennis circles is more than "hype" or "mythology." The (lesser-known) numbers prove it or at least strongly reinforce it, and while the likes of Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Arthurs, Karlovic and Isner might be "better" day in day out there was no one more dangerous or trustworthy on the sport's biggest stages than Sampras.

On a similar (and smaller) note I've also bumped Federer up to 18th place. Again Rusedski along with unranked candidates like Anderson and Querrey might well boast a bigger serve, but none of them can match Fed's amazing longevity and reliability and it's only out of respect for Tanner's formidable reputation that I've kept his challenger at bay for now. But that should tell you what an overloaded collection of historic talents we're dealing with here, to have a proven ATG server like Fed sit outside the top 17. They really are the proverbial cream of the crop.

(To be continued.)

 

[NonP]

Before I move on to housekeeping I'd refrained from publishing my URS collection for Flipper 'cause of a small discrepancy for his '98 USO final (and the other unlinked names have a big pile I still need to organize in a presentable form), but I've finally reconciled my #s with the official ones and TA's to my satisfaction. Without further ado here's the complete Philippoussis list (as usual links to relevant match stats are provided where available):

2004 WIM 3R W Gonzalez - 65.8% (75/114), 27 aces (10 in 4th set), 9 DFs [(??/132), 17 aces, 9 DFs]
2006 Newport F W Gimelstob - 56.9% (37/65), 15 aces, 6 DFs [(??/83), 8 aces, 3 DFs]
2003 WIM 4R W Agassi - 50.3% (79/157), 63.7% (100/157) 1st, 46 aces, 12 DFs [33.3% (55/165), 66.7% (110/165) 1st, 10 aces, 2 DFs]
2003 WIM F L Federer - 49.0% (50/102), 68.6% (70/102) 1st, 14 aces, 4 DFs [46.2% (43/93), 57.0% (53/93) 1st, 21 aces, 2 DFs]
2000 Paris F L Safin - 46.6% (75/161), 22 aces, 9 DFs [34.4% (54/157), 22 aces, 2 DFs]
1998 Memphis F W Chang - 44.6% (25/56), 16 aces, 4 DFs [25% (15/60), 5 aces, 0 DFs]
1998 USO SF W Moya - 43.2% (48/111), 21 aces (1 on 2nd), 11 DFs [23.7% (27/114), 6 aces, 4 DFs]
1999 IW F W Moya - 42.9% (63/147), 63.3% (93/147) 1st, 23 aces, 10 aces [26.5% (41/155), 65.2% (101/155) 1st, 6 aces, 6 DFs]
1996 AO 3R W Sampras - 42.2% (49/116), 29 aces, 6 DFs [36.6% (41/112), 5 aces, 1 DF]
1996 USO 4R L Sampras - 41.5% (34/82), 17 aces, 6 DFs [(??/86?), 10 aces, 3 DFs]
2004 WIM 4R L Henman - 39.4% (56/142), 22 aces, 7 DFs [32.8% (45/137), 22 aces, 5 DFs]
1995 USO 3R L Sampras - 35.4% (52/147), 14 aces, 9 DFs [(??/143?), 28 aces, 14 DFs]
2003 LA SF L Ferreira - 32.9% (24/73), 12 aces, 1 DF [36.5% (23/63), 6 aces, 2 DFs]
1997 DC SF L Sampras - 30.3% (34/112), 16 aces, 8 DFs [49.4% (40/81), 17 aces, 2 DFs]
1998 USO F L Rafter - 27.4% (32/117), 5 aces, 13 DFs [41.9% (36/86), 6 aces, 1 DF]

And two Arthurs matches for good measure:

2005 Scottsdale F W Ancic - 63.5% (33/52), 9 aces, 0 DFs [35.4% (23/65), 10 aces, 2 DFs]
2002 Wimbledon 3R W Dent - 49.7% (79/159), 32 aces, 2 DFs [?% (??/168), 13 aces, 6 DFs]

Now the replies:

Yeah it's not hard to find matches in which Connors was aced a lot. Maybe Murray is aced less and that's one strength of a returner, and one style of returning. But Connors' strength (and Agassi's) was his greats hands and aggression when he got his racquet on the ball.

I think TA's "Unret---%" column is a special category for non-ace serves that are judged to be unreturnable.

Then their "inPlay---%" column lists all the returns in play, both as a total and as a percentage of all serves judged to be returnable. It's just a different emphasis from what we're counting, though I do wish they had the total unreturned just listed somewhere.

By the way do you have my stats for this match, from 1986 Davis Cup final:

Cash served on 160 points, and 48 serves did not come back: 30.0%
Pernfors served on 148 points, and 40 serves did not come back: 27.0%

Some stats for 1986 Davis Cup final (Cash-Pernfors)

This is one of the best grass-court matches I've seen: a true contrast of styles, a great comeback, and the underdog playing in the zone. Score: Cash d. Pernfors 2-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4, 6-3 (46 games) The match was played at Kooyong Stadium, a month before the Australian Open was held there...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

So I went looking for Lendl-Pernfors (86 RG) stats at TA:

1986 Roland Garros F: Mikael Pernfors vs Ivan Lendl Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

But it looks like their coverage of the match is very incomplete. They have only 164 points played, but a boxscore reported 192 points (and it's a very detailed boxscore).

I'm not sure but I could not see anywhere indicating that a TA-charted match is incomplete. So for any data I get from TA, I've just checked the total points, or total points served and whatnot, against other sources. That's how I noticed that they were missing 6 Roddick service points in the '05 Wimb final.

I'm pretty sure Murray is the best among Jimbo, Dre, Nole and Muzz (or perhaps the best ever period) when it comes to getting the ball back, but I also think the other three tend to do more with the ball they manage to get their racquet on. In Novak's case I don't think that is enough to override Andy's advantage in the walling (how's that for a tennis verb?) department. Haven't seen enough of Jimbo to deliver a final verdict, but I'll take peak Agassi over peak Murray overall. Can't imagine '95 Dre being so helpless against Fed's serve in the '12 Wimby final, for example.

And yeah, I noticed shortly after posting my last reply that the Unret---% in TA charts is a whole other category. Still think they should start treating the URS as a new column, and of course be a little more fastidious with their overall #s.

Thought I had a separate database for Cash's URS rates (or at least one mishmash one for "the other guys") but apparently I don't, so thanks for those #s.

Best SERVER ever at WIMBLEDON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (THE HOLY GRAIL OF TENNIS)
Pete Sampras career 1st serve points won at Wimby - 86.7% .....HOLD RATE 94.2 %
Ivo Karlovic career 1st serve points won at Wimby 84.7% .....Hold Rate 93.8%
Federer career 1st Serve points won at Wimby 79.9%....Hold Rate 93.6%
Goran Career 1st serve points won at Wimby 88.3% ....Hold Rate 92.3%
Krajicek Career 1st serve points won at Wimby 85.3% ....Hold Rate 91.5%

Pete Sampras is WIMBLEDONS BEST SERVER......

Afraid those 1st- and 2nd-serve numbers are off as the ATP double-counted aces and DFs twice for most of the Slam matches between '92-'98. But those hold rates should be more or less correct. That super-duper % of Pete's is just one of the reasons why he now sits on top of our latest GSOAT ranking.

@NonP I took stats on the 68 and 73 W finals. Thought I emailed krosero those, but not sure.

@krosero that's a shame about TA posting stats for incomplete matches.

Then post the stats here, damnit! What are you waiting for?!

And yeah, TA is an invaluable resource but its indefatigable charters can be somewhat sloppy with the total # of points and 1st/2nd-serve distribution. I still remember perusing one of their charts (probably a Sampras-Agassi match or the '96 RG SF between Pete and Yevgeny) and jotting down the numbers before realizing the total # of service points for at least one of the players was off. (Ditto its chart for the '18 AO 2nd-rounder between Fed and Dolgo, though @abmk was right to point to it as one of Fed's strongest serving performances.) That's why it's always good to check their numbers against official ones when possible, as krosero suggested earlier.

I've been checking out Voo de Mar's match-charting project, and he has unreturned serves for the last 3 sets of Becker-Stich at 1993 Wimbledon (QF). Becker won 7-5, 6-7 (5), 6-7 (5), 6-2, 6-4 without losing his serve.

wb93becker_krajicek02 | The History of Men's Tennis (Open Era)

Like I said he only did the last 3 sets, but I've got numbers for the first two sets (I did Becker's a few years ago and never finished charting the match.)

Combining Voo's numbers with mine:

Becker served on 179 points, and 77 serves did not come back: 43.2%
Stich served on 190 points, and 67 serves did not come back: 35.3%

Becker's numbers stayed steady throughout the match; I have him at 42% in the first two sets, Voo has him 44% in the last 3. But I have Stich way up at 51.3% in the first two sets, while Voo has him 24.1% in the last 3.

Anyway Becker's full-match rate of 43.2%, if accurate, is one of the best I have for him. In GS and Davis Cup, I know of three higher (but other posters may know of more):

50.4% against Leconte, 1986 Wimb SF
49.3% against Wilander, 1989 Davis Cup final
48.2% against Leconte, 1985 Wimb SF

(Edited Becker's unreturned rate against Wilander)

Think you might have Becker's and Stich's totals switched. When you subtract the ATP's # of aces and DFs from each once you get 193 for Boris and 179 for Mike. (That 3-pt discrepancy for Boris is probably a mistake on Voo's part. He tends to get the total # of points wrong a lot, alas.)

Got three Becker rates higher or close:

1988 DC SF W Zivojinovic - 57.3% (43/75), 15 aces [46.2% (43/93)]
1992 YEC RR L Sampras - 53.3% (40/75), 14 aces, 6 DFs [50% (35/70), 58.6% (41/70) 1st, 13 aces]
1995 YEC F W Chang - 50% (48/96), 58.3% (56/96) 1st, 24 aces, 6 DFs [??% (%%/104), 52.9% (55/104) 1st, 9 aces 3 DFs]

 

[NatF]

@NonP

You checked out TA's match charting? There's the collated stats e.g.

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/AndyRoddick.html

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/PeteSampras.html

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/GoranIvanisevic.html

Gives aces, unreturnables and forced errors under the serve statistics overview. Doesn't track unforced errors off the return, but in the case of Sampras there's 96 matches charted for him (Probably some matches you or your circle haven't charted) and you can go to individual matches and pull the unreturned figures from there. Might be some discrepancies there though, just looked at once match (1995 Wim final) and they have Sampras serving 105 points and Becker returning 43% of Pete's serves? That's if I'm reading and understanding it...

 

[NonP]

@NonP

You checked out TA's match charting? There's the collated stats e.g.

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/AndyRoddick.html

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/PeteSampras.html

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/GoranIvanisevic.html

Gives aces, unreturnables and forced errors under the serve statistics overview. Doesn't track unforced errors off the return, but in the case of Sampras there's 96 matches charted for him (Probably some matches you or your circle haven't charted) and you can go to individual matches and pull the unreturned figures from there. Might be some discrepancies there though, just looked at once match (1995 Wim final) and they have Sampras serving 105 points and Becker returning 43% of Pete's serves? That's if I'm reading and understanding it...

Yeah I'll be going through all of them eventually. The thing with TA, though, is that they've got this annoying tendency to leave out a few points. Usually it's only one or two, but several like Roddick's #s for the '05 Wimby final (which krosero mentioned earlier) or Grosjean's for the '03 Wimby SF are missing more than just a couple. And the lone Arthurs chart they've got is way off. That's why you don't see some of them here though I already have them in my collection with an asterisk.

Like krosero, Moose and @slice serve ace I'm super anal when it comes to accuracy, so if you see any discrepancy between our #s and TA's you can safely assume ours win the day.

 

[NatF]

Yeah I'll be going through all of them eventually. The thing with TA, though, is that they've got this annoying tendency to leave out a few points. Usually it's only one or two, but several like Roddick's #s for the '05 Wimby final (which krosero mentioned earlier) or Grosjean's for the '03 Wimby SF are missing more than just a couple. And the lone Arthurs chart they've got is way off. That's why you don't see some of them here though I already have them in my collection with an asterisk.

Like krosero, Moose and @slice serve ace I'm super anal when it comes to accuracy, so if you see any discrepancy between our #s and TA's you can safely assume ours win the day.

aha ok fair enough.

You can trust the few charts I have in there BTW Unfortunately some older matches are missing points so it might just be that you guys have found more complete versions.

 

[NonP]

aha ok fair enough.

You can trust the few charts I have in there BTW Unfortunately some older matches are missing points so it might just be that you guys have found more complete versions.

Didn't know you do some charting yourself. Besides @AnOctorokForDinner is there anyone else here who has contributed to TA? (I see lots done by a certain Edo but maybe he/she uses a different name here.)

And you make a good point about TA working with incomplete matches. It actually makes sense and explains why some of the charts are missing a couple points. Wish they'd make this clear where applicable, though.

 

[NatF]

Didn't know you do some charting yourself. Besides @AnOctorokForDinner is there anyone else here who has contributed to TA? (I see lots done by a certain Edo but maybe he/she uses a different name here.)

And you make a good point about TA working with incomplete matches. It actually makes sense and explains why some of the charts are missing a couple points. Wish they'd make this clear where applicable, though.

You can see it in the play by play but otherwise it's not visible in the general stats.

abmk contributed one chart I think, not sure about anyone else.

I've mainly contributed Hewitt matches, there's a few encounters with Roddick in there though. I started charting Hewitt vs Dent at the USO in 2005 e.g. another big serve but my copy is missing so so so many points it's quite discouraging.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Yeah I'll be going through all of them eventually. The thing with TA, though, is that they've got this annoying tendency to leave out a few points. Usually it's only one or two, but several like Roddick's #s for the '05 Wimby final (which krosero mentioned earlier) or Grosjean's for the '03 Wimby SF are missing more than just a couple. And the lone Arthurs chart they've got is way off. That's why you don't see some of them here though I already have them in my collection with an asterisk.

Like krosero, Moose and @slice serve ace I'm super anal when it comes to accuracy, so if you see any discrepancy between our #s and TA's you can safely assume ours win the day.

Plenty incomplete matches, whatchagonnado. Recording 90% of points are better than nothing. E.g. the Fed-Arthurs match (2001 RG 4R iirc) starts at 5-1 Arthurs (and I have the same copy so can't help), almost a set missed. Though in this case, that start was an anomaly since Federer blitzed through the rest of the match easily without getting broken, so not very significant really.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Didn't know you do some charting yourself. Besides @AnOctorokForDinner is there anyone else here who has contributed to TA? (I see lots done by a certain Edo but maybe he/she uses a different name here.)

And you make a good point about TA working with incomplete matches. It actually makes sense and explains why some of the charts are missing a couple points. Wish they'd make this clear where applicable, though.

The one issue is lack of interest in polishing those charts once more complete footage surfaces. I have it in mind to run through big match charts sometime later and supply missing points where available.

 

[NonP]

You can see it in the play by play but otherwise it's not visible in the general stats.

abmk contributed one chart I think, not sure about anyone else.

I've mainly contributed Hewitt matches, there's a few encounters with Roddick in there though. I started charting Hewitt vs Dent at the USO in 2005 e.g. another big serve but my copy is missing so so so many points it's quite discouraging.

Think you can see the contributor's name at the bottom of the page. Anyway it's good work you guys are doing and don't let a cranky nitpicker like moi stop you.

Plenty incomplete matches, whatchagonnado. Recording 90% of points are better than nothing. E.g. the Fed-Arthurs match (2001 RG 4R iirc) starts at 5-1 Arthurs (and I have the same copy so can't help), almost a set missed. Though in this case, that start was an anomaly since Federer blitzed through the rest of the match easily without getting broken, so not very significant really.

The one issue is lack of interest in polishing those charts once more complete footage surfaces. I have it in mind to run through big match charts sometime later and supply missing points where available.

I agree something is better than nothing... if people can tell what they're seeing is not the full picture. Why not have a disclaimer on the main page for those instances?

And yeah I can see why people would be discouraged from revisiting their previous work. Maybe others can complete the work or is the editing privilege only given to the original charter?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Gives aces, unreturnables and forced errors under the serve statistics overview. Doesn't track unforced errors off the return, but in the case of Sampras there's 96 matches charted for him (Probably some matches you or your circle haven't charted) and you can go to individual matches and pull the unreturned figures from there. Might be some discrepancies there though, just looked at once match (1995 Wim final) and they have Sampras serving 105 points and Becker returning 43% of Pete's serves? That's if I'm reading and understanding it...

Don't forget to subtract DFs. 43/98 returned here, 16/57 first and 27/41 second. One PETE service point missing ('unknown'). Comparison shows their rate of returning non-DF 2nds was similar but Sampras was a lot more successful on the returns he made, while 1st serve returns were opposite, similar success on returns made but Sampras returning way more (50% to 30%, rounding bluntly).

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I agree something is better than nothing... if people can tell what they're seeing is not the full picture. Why not have a disclaimer on the main page for those instances?

And yeah I can see why people would be discouraged from revisiting their previous work. Maybe others can complete the work or is the editing privilege only given to the original charter?

The project interface and stat grid is certsinly not optimised for easy understanding, true. I raised that point to Sackmann but he doesn't want to bother currently, seems like he's comfortable developing the project in relative obscurity until it reaches the alpha stage so to speak. Basically poor presentability/'marketing' you could say, bit annoying but obviously I'm not gonna insist as that would be rude.

You can complete anyone's incomplete chart if you wish, sending specifically the missing points charted. I've done that a few times already.