Greatest Serves of All Time

[NonP]

Don't forget to subtract DFs. 43/98 returned here, 16/57 first and 27/41 second. One PETE service point missing ('unknown'). Comparison shows their rate of returning non-DF 2nds was similar but Sampras was a lot more successful on the returns he made, while 1st serve returns were opposite, similar success on returns made but Sampras returning way more (50% to 30%, rounding bluntly).

The crazy thing is Pete didn't even seem to be trying that hard to break Boris' serve, like he had another extra gear or two to fall back on. It's actually the '95 final that made me realize nobody including Becker (who was my fave at the time) was gonna touch this kid at Wimbledon unless he had a real bad day at the office. To this day I seriously doubt prime Pistol has ever been surpassed on grass.

The project interface and stat grid is certsinly not optimised for easy understanding, true. I raised that point to Sackmann but he doesn't want to bother currently, seems like he's comfortable developing the project in relative obscurity until it reaches the alpha stage so to speak. Basically poor presentability/'marketing' you could say, bit annoying but obviously I'm not gonna insist as that would be rude.

You can complete anyone's incomplete chart if you wish, sending specifically the missing points charted. I've done that a few times already.

Had never even heard of this Sackmann guy before, LOL. But I actually dig his lack of interest in marketing. Shows real enthusiasm for the sport!

And IC re: TA's Wiki format. Maybe I'll submit my own completions when I have time.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

The crazy thing is Pete didn't even seem to be trying that hard to break Boris' serve, like he had another extra gear or two to fall back on. It's actually the '95 final that made me realize nobody including Becker (who was my fave at the time) was gonna touch this kid at Wimbledon unless he had a real bad day at the office. To this day I seriously doubt prime Pistol has ever been surpassed on grass.

Goran gave PETE a much tougher match just two days before though. Sure, that was peak Goran and he played super well except the usual choking, which did him in eventually, can't throw a bad service game in the fifth set and expect to get away with it. It sounds quite daft to debate which of Gonzales/Laver, McEnroe, Sampras, Federer were more unbeatable on grass at their best, each was geared for his own era.

Had never even heard of this Sackmann guy before, LOL. But I actually like the guy's lack of interest in marketing. Shows real enthusiasm for the sport!

And IC re: TA's Wiki format. Maybe I'll submit my own completions when I have time.

Looks like he's decently known in professional circles, the introverted mathematician type I guess, can relate to that. Certainly loves the project and tennis itself given the enormous amount of time devoted to it. As I said, he's always open to any helpful contributions so it'd be nice if you helped polish the charts like that.

 

[NonP]

Goran gave PETE a much tougher match just two days before though. Sure, that was peak Goran and he played super well except the usual choking, which did him in eventually, can't throw a bad service game in the fifth set and expect to get away with it. It sounds quite daft to debate which of Gonzales/Laver, McEnroe, Sampras, Federer were more unbeatable on grass at their best, each was geared for his own era.

I've long pointed to that match as Pete's toughest win ever so you don't need to remind me. Like you said it was typical Goran, playing like a man possessed before the final and utterly dominant in the 2nd and 4th sets before the expected brain fart. He even won more points overall but still lost!

Anyhoo I like Pete's chances on grass (or on Centre Court, to be more precise) against the guys I've seen. Can't really predict vs. Gorgo/Rocket or any of the old-timers but I actually think Kramer would be a tougher outing for Pete, because of the 2nd-serve factor.

Looks like he's decently known in professional circles, the introverted mathematician type I guess, can relate to that. Certainly loves the project and tennis itself given the enormous amount of time devoted to it. As I said, he's always open to any helpful contributions so it'd be nice if you helped polish the charts like that.

Didn't know TA was the brainchild of a single guy to begin with. Like I said he sounds like a nice fellow and maybe I'll get in touch with him someday.

 

[xFedal]

I've long pointed to that match as Pete's toughest win ever so you don't need to remind me. Like you said it was typical Goran, playing like a man possessed before the final and utterly dominant in the 2nd and 4th sets before the expected brain fart. He even won more points overall but still lost!

Anyhoo I like Pete's chances on grass (or on Centre Court, to be more precise) against the guys I've seen. Can't really predict vs. Gorgo/Rocket or any of the old-timers but I actually think Kramer would be a tougher outing for Pete, because of the 2nd-serve factor.



Didn't know TA was the brainchild of a single guy to begin with. Like I said he sounds like a nice fellow and maybe I'll get in touch with him someday.

Peak Krammer > Peak Gonazlez ? Peak Kammer > Peak HOAD?

 

[krosero]

Think you might have Becker's and Stich's totals switched. When you subtract the ATP's # of aces and DFs from each once you get 193 for Boris and 179 for Mike. (That 3-pt discrepancy for Boris is probably a mistake on Voo's part. He tends to get the total # of points wrong a lot, alas.)

I've charted the whole match now. I'll post the full numbers in a match thread, but for our purposes these are the unreturned serves:

Becker served on 193 points, and 75 serves did not come back: 38.9%
Stich served on 178 points, and 68 serves did not come back: 38.2%

Becker had 16 clean aces, 10 df's. Stich had 20 clean aces (one on a second serve), 13 df's.

It turns out that Voo switched around Becker's and Stich's totals for points served, in the 3-set portion that he charted. In those 3 sets Becker had 42 unreturned serves and Stich 28, so Voo got reasonably close to those (he has 44 and 27 respectively). But Becker served 114 points, Stich 100 (Voo has Becker 100, Stich 112).

This partly explains why Stich's unreturned percentage looked like it took a dive in the last 3 sets: Voo gave Stich too many service points.

Good you checked against the ATP numbers and spotted that, though the ATP's numbers, even with aces and df's subtracted once, are slightly off mine (eg, they're missing a Becker ace and a Stich double-fault), so they're not going to line up exactly with my numbers even when corrected.

Got three Becker rates higher or close:

1988 DC SF W Zivojinovic - 57.3% (43/75), 15 aces [46.2% (43/93)]
1992 YEC RR L Sampras - 53.3% (40/75), 14 aces, 6 DFs [50% (35/70), 58.6% (41/70) 1st, 13 aces]
1995 YEC F W Chang - 50% (48/96), 58.3% (56/96) 1st, 24 aces, 6 DFs [??% (%%/104), 52.9% (55/104) 1st, 9 aces 3 DFs]

Thanks for these, did not have the Zivojinovic one.

Becker was 50% at Queen's against Kriek in '85, courtesy of @Waspsting

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-stats-report-becker-vs-kriek-queens-final-1985.609175/

Shoutout to @AnOctorokForDinner for his match-uploading project. I was able to chart Becker-Stich accurately, using this upload, which I think was part of the project:

This and many other uploads on YT have fuller coverage than some of the DVD's I had. I ordered my DVD of Becker-Stich years ago from a guy who cut out changeovers and any service fault that may have opened the following game; often you couldn't be sure if the serve opening a game was a first or second serve. That was the reason I stopped charting that match after only two sets -- just too much uncertainty to continue.

But, there are many uploads now on YouTube and elsewhere with better coverage. This one of Becker-Stich starts mid-match, but what's there doesn't cut out service faults.

 

[Waspsting]

Anyway Becker's full-match rate of 43.2%, if accurate, is one of the best I have for him

A bit surprised at this

I'd estimate 40% to be about Becker's mode on grass... and close to it on 90s carpet. So would have anticipated his highest counts to be well higher

Story I picked up from commentary from a 1999 Queens Club match. Becker was in attendance and the commentators reminisced about his exploits at Queens, especially his breakout showing in 1985

They quoted Johan Kriek, who Becker had bested in the final, as saying after the match that if Becker served like that, he would win Wimbledon

Not might win, not will have a good chance... but will win

Bold prediction to make of a 17 year old, ranked about 20, with McEnroe still in his pomp

 

[Zara]

How do you judge the serve as only a stand alone shot, when some of these players had to play in very high pressured high stakes matches year in year out while others never went that far?

 

[krosero]

A bit surprised at this

I'd estimate 40% to be about Becker's mode on grass... and close to it on 90s carpet. So would have anticipated his highest counts to be well higher

Story I picked up from commentary from a 1999 Queens Club match. Becker was in attendance and the commentators reminisced about his exploits at Queens, especially his breakout showing in 1985

They quoted Johan Kriek, who Becker had bested in the final, as saying after the match that if Becker served like that, he would win Wimbledon

Not might win, not will have a good chance... but will win

Bold prediction to make of a 17 year old, ranked about 20, with McEnroe still in his pomp

Interesting too that Kriek was at the receiving end of that 50% unreturned-rate performance by Becker, which you charted. Becker's power game and particularly his serve were something new at the time and everyone noticed it, but Kriek got to taste it first-hand.

Becker's rate in the Stich match is down now to 38.9% now that I've charted the whole match. Statistically good but not extraordinary, certainly not for him.

I just recall back in '93 that it was the first time I'd ever heard of someone going 5 sets without being broken. Have you run across any others before '93?

 

[Waspsting]

Interesting too that Kriek was at the receiving end of that 50% unreturned-rate performance by Becker, which you charted. Becker's power game and particularly his serve were something new at the time and everyone noticed it, but Kriek got to taste it first-hand.

I think it was in that match that the commentators - one was Dan Maskell I remember because he referred to a stretch lob volley Becker made as being Renee Lacoste like - talked about who had the best serve in the world

One said McEnroe first, then Becker

The other queried Becker better than Zivojinovic (implying he didn't think so)… the first said yes, due to variety, but felt Bobo's serve might be faster than Beckers

(Really should start a thread noting interesting things I hear on commentary)

I just recall back in '93 that it was the first time I'd ever heard of someone going 5 sets without being broken. Have you run across any others before '93?

Can't think of any at all, irrespective of period

How many do you know of post '93?

 

[Standaa]

Karlovic. All the others had groundstrokes. Karlovic's serve has got him into the top 15, when the rest of his game is outside the top 100. Goran is a clear second, then you could group Sampras, Stich, Becker, Roddick etc as similar in standard.

this.

I don’t know how can anyone with two brain cells possibly deny Karlovic has the best serve of all time. Sorry Sampras, it’s not close.

 

[krosero]

I think it was in that match that the commentators - one was Dan Maskell I remember because he referred to a stretch lob volley Becker made as being Renee Lacoste like - talked about who had the best serve in the world

One said McEnroe first, then Becker

The other queried Becker better than Zivojinovic (implying he didn't think so)… the first said yes, due to variety, but felt Bobo's serve might be faster than Beckers

(Really should start a thread noting interesting things I hear on commentary)



Can't think of any at all, irrespective of period

How many do you know of post '93?

Ha, Becker and Lacoste -- two names I've NEVER put together

We had an old thread about players winning in 5 sets without losing serve:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/5-set-matches-where-the-winner-never-loses-serve.139351/

(note Becker-Pioline is wrong)

So these are all I know of:

Becker vs. Stich, 1993 Wimbledon QF
Sampras vs. Korda, 1997 Wimbledon, R16
Hernan Gumy vs. Dominik Hrbaty, 1997 USO, R128
Magnus Norman vs. Daniel Nestor, 1998 USO, R128
Agassi vs. Martin, 1999 USO final
Juan Monaco vs. Raonic, 2012 RG, R32
(these were all wins)

Becker was broken only in his last service game, lost match to Sampras, 1996 YEC final

Roddick was broken only in the last game of the match, lost to Federer, 2009 Wimbledon final

 

[krosero]

Let's take a closer look at his career Slam finals

I've taken Pete's hardcourt GS finals and ordered them from highest unreturned rate to lowest (I used your figures for '92 USO).

We can't do a comparison with Ivanisevic like we did with Wimbledon finals, since Goran never made a hardcourt GS final. But I've thrown in other big names for whom we have a complete sets of unreturned stats in hardcourt finals, and probably the best comparison with Pete is McEnroe.


HARDCOURT GS FINALS

Sampras 8 USO, 3 AO

1993 USO	Sampras 48.6%	Pioline 24.5%
1995 USO	Sampras 47.1%	Agassi 25.2%
2002 USO	Sampras 44.1%	Agassi 30.4%
1997 AO	Sampras 43.48%	Moya 29.1%
1990 USO	Sampras 41.7%	Agassi 16.0%
1995 AO	Sampras 41.0%	Agassi 30.5%
2000 USO	Sampras 40.5%	Safin 30.49%
1996 USO	Sampras 38.9%	Chang 29.3%
1994 AO	Sampras 34.9%	Martin 26.4%
2001 USO	Sampras 33.3%	Hewitt 32.5%
1992 USO	Sampras 29.6%	Edberg 30.6%

McEnroe 5 USO

1984 USO	McEnroe 45.2%	Lendl 18.1%
1980 USO	McEnroe 39.4%	Borg 15.2%
1985 USO	McEnroe 34.1%	Lendl 33.0%
1981 USO	McEnroe 30.7%	Borg 21.4%
1979 USO	McEnroe 23.2%	Gerulaitis 19.0%

Becker 1 USO, 2 AO

1989 USO	Becker 35.0%	Lendl 20.0%
1996 AO	Becker 32.0%	Chang 33.9%
1991 AO	Becker 32.0%	Lendl 29.6%

Lendl 8 USO, 2 AO (excluding ’90 ret. of Edberg)

1989 AO	Lendl 35.1%	Mecir 10.1%
1985 USO	Lendl 33.0%	McEnroe 34.1%
1986 USO	Lendl 32.3%	Mecir 15.3%
1991 AO	Lendl 29.6%	Becker 32.0%
1982 USO	Lendl 25.6%	Connors 18.6%
1983 USO	Lendl 20.1%	Connors 24.8%
1989 USO	Lendl 20.0%	Becker 35.0%
1984 USO	Lendl 18.1%	McEnroe 45.2%
1987 USO	Lendl 17.8%	Wilander 23.2%
1988 USO	Lendl 16.4%	Wilander 13.8%

Borg 3 USO

1981 USO	Borg 21.4%	McEnroe 30.7%
1978 USO	Borg 17.3%	Connors 16.4%
1980 USO	Borg 15.2%	McEnroe 39.4%

Rafter 2 USO

1998 USO	Rafter 41.9%	Philippoussis 27.4%
1997 USO	Rafter 33.6%	Rusedski 35.8%

Connors 3 USO (not a big server, but thrown in for comparison)

1983 USO	Connors 24.8%	Lendl 20.1%
1982 USO	Connors 18.6%	Lendl 25.6%
1978 USO	Connors 16.4%	Borg 17.3%

Kudos and thanks to all who've put these stats together, I charted some but most were done by others, including Moose, slice serve ace, NonP, Waspsting, ABMK, and TA

 

[krosero]

I've put together Fed's hardcourt numbers now, and actually they're as good as McEnroe's.

Federer 7 USO, 7 AO finals

2018 AO	Federer 46.8%	Cilic 34.8%
2005 USO	Federer 41.1%	Agassi 19.847%
2007 USO	Federer 34.0%	Djokovic 28.4%
2017 AO	Federer 32.6%	Nadal 25.8%
2004 AO	Federer 32.2%	Safin 15.52%
2015 USO	Federer 32.1%	Djokovic 20.0%
2006 USO	Federer 27.2%	Roddick 26.2%
2008 USO	Federer 27.2%	Murray 18.5%
2007 AO	Federer 26.7%	Gonzalez 21.3%
2009 USO	Federer 26.0%	Del Potro 22.2%
2004 USO	Federer 25.8%	Hewitt 18.7%
2009 AO	Federer 22.7%	Nadal 18.9%
2006 AO	Federer 22.2%	Baghdatis 27.2%
2010 AO	Federer 20.5%	Murray 23.1%

 

[Drob]

I've taken Pete's hardcourt GS finals and ordered them from highest unreturned rate to lowest (I used your figures for '92 USO).

We can't do a comparison with Ivanisevic like we did with Wimbledon finals, since Goran never made a hardcourt GS final. But I've thrown in other big names for whom we have a complete sets of unreturned stats in hardcourt finals, and probably the best comparison with Pete is McEnroe.


HARDCOURT GS FINALS

Sampras 8 USO, 3 AO

1993 USO	Sampras 48.6%	Pioline 24.5%
1995 USO	Sampras 47.1%	Agassi 25.2%
2002 USO	Sampras 44.1%	Agassi 30.4%
1997 AO	Sampras 43.48%	Moya 29.1%
1990 USO	Sampras 41.7%	Agassi 16.0%
1995 AO	Sampras 41.0%	Agassi 30.5%
2000 USO	Sampras 40.5%	Safin 30.49%
1996 USO	Sampras 38.9%	Chang 29.3%
1994 AO	Sampras 34.9%	Martin 26.4%
2001 USO	Sampras 33.3%	Hewitt 32.5%
1992 USO	Sampras 29.6%	Edberg 30.6%

McEnroe 5 USO

1984 USO	McEnroe 45.2%	Lendl 18.1%
1980 USO	McEnroe 39.4%	Borg 15.2%
1985 USO	McEnroe 34.1%	Lendl 33.0%
1981 USO	McEnroe 30.7%	Borg 21.4%
1979 USO	McEnroe 23.2%	Gerulaitis 19.0%

Becker 1 USO, 2 AO

1989 USO	Becker 35.0%	Lendl 20.0%
1996 AO	Becker 32.0%	Chang 33.9%
1991 AO	Becker 32.0%	Lendl 29.6%

Lendl 8 USO, 2 AO (excluding ’90 ret. of Edberg)

1989 AO	Lendl 35.1%	Mecir 10.1%
1985 USO	Lendl 33.0%	McEnroe 34.1%
1986 USO	Lendl 32.3%	Mecir 15.3%
1991 AO	Lendl 29.6%	Becker 32.0%
1982 USO	Lendl 25.6%	Connors 18.6%
1983 USO	Lendl 20.1%	Connors 24.8%
1989 USO	Lendl 20.0%	Becker 35.0%
1984 USO	Lendl 18.1%	McEnroe 45.2%
1987 USO	Lendl 17.8%	Wilander 23.2%
1988 USO	Lendl 16.4%	Wilander 13.8%

Borg 3 USO

1981 USO	Borg 21.4%	McEnroe 30.7%
1978 USO	Borg 17.3%	Connors 16.4%
1980 USO	Borg 15.2%	McEnroe 39.4%

Rafter 2 USO

1998 USO	Rafter 41.9%	Philippoussis 27.4%
1997 USO	Rafter 32.7% - 37.3% ?	Rusedski 35.8%

(I calculated Rafter’s ’97 number from TA, but they are missing 5 of his service points)



Connors 3 USO (not a big server, but thrown in for comparison)

1983 USO	Connors 24.8%	Lendl 20.1%
1982 USO	Connors 18.6%	Lendl 25.6%
1978 USO	Connors 16.4%	Borg 17.3%

Kudos and thanks to all who've put these stats together, I charted some but most were done by others, including Moose, slice serve ace, NonP, Waspsting, ABMK, and TA

Can you compare Pete to GS hardcourt semifinals and finals of Roddick, and biggest hardcourt matches of Goran, Philippoussis, and maybe Delpo, Stich, Rusdeski, in other words a big server who either won something or made a Slam final on hardcourt, ca. advent of technology?

 

[Drob]

Probably could include Anderson, who is eighth on the ATP career leaderboard for service, as well as Isner, the No. 1, and maybe Raonic, No. 3. What I am thinking is probably obvious - that aces per game, although exciting, might mislead in some cases. The percentage of unreturned serves by Sampras that you found are surprisingly high to me. If Pete's unreturned serves percentage was as good or higher than Isner in his biggest matches, that would be extraordinary. I realize bringing these fellows in entails comparing a Slam final to a less significant match, but it would be very interesting if Pete stands above everybody in this statistic.

 

[krosero]

Probably could include Anderson, who is eighth on the ATP career leaderboard for service, as well as Isner, the No. 1, and maybe Raonic, No. 3. What I am thinking is probably obvious - that aces per game, although exciting, might mislead in some cases. The percentage of unreturned serves by Sampras that you found are surprisingly high to me. If Pete's unreturned serves percentage was as good or higher than Isner in his biggest matches, that would be extraordinary. I realize bringing these fellows in entails comparing a Slam final to a less significant match, but it would be very interesting if Pete stands above everybody in this statistic.

My collection of unreturned percentages is still pretty thin, outside of finals and some other big meetings in rivalries. Unreturned serves is still not a particularly easy stat to collect (even when the data is available, for example at TA, it's not reported directly but has to be calculated). Throughout this thread there's a large collection of these stats for the biggest servers, and these are 3 of the most useful posts:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/greatest-serves-of-all-time.306579/page-25#post-11461274

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/greatest-serves-of-all-time.306579/page-25#post-11461983

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/greatest-serves-of-all-time.306579/page-27#post-13663545

These are all the hardcourt matches I have for Roddick (I don't have even one hardcourt match for Ivanisevic):

2004 USO QF	Roddick 62.7%	Johansson 35.2%
2004 Cincinnati SF	Roddick 51.4%	Agassi 36.4%
2003 USO final	Roddick 50.6%	Ferrero 30.0%
2008 AO R32	Roddick 45.1%	Kohlschreiber 32.1%
2003 USO SF	Roddick 41.5%	Nalbandian 14.9%
2009 USO R32	Roddick 40.9%	Isner 38.6%
2003 YEC SF	Roddick 38.1%	Federer 46.4%
2005 AO SF	Roddick 36.6%	Hewitt 34.8%
2002 USO QF	Roddick 36.2%	Sampras 33.3%
2006 YEC RR	Roddick 35.2%	Federer 23.4%
2003 AO QF	Roddick 34.2%	El Aynaoui 28.9%
2007 AO SF	Roddick 26.2%	Federer 28.6%
2006 USO final	Roddick 26.2%	Federer 27.2%

I don't think you're going to find that the unreturned numbers I posted for Pete, in his GS finals, are going to top the best figures from bombers like Karlovic in their best matches. Pete doesn't have the highest unreturned figures of all time; he's not #1 in that category; where he shines is in bringing his best numbers to big matches, and in comparison to other big servers in finals.

 

[krosero]

Incidentally I fixed the number for Rafter in the post above, in '97 USO final. I found TA's missing points here (they are the first 5 points of the match):

1997 US Open F: Patrick Rafter vs Greg Rusedski Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

So the full numbers are:

Rafter 37/110 unreturned, 33.6%
Rusedski 44/123 unreturned, 35.8%

 

[BH40love]

No numbers needed for no1. Sampras best serve of all time
All others can be in whatever order.

 

[Standaa]

this.

I don’t know how can anyone with two brain cells possibly deny Karlovic has the best serve of all time. Sorry Sampras, it’s not close.

was going to write exactly this but thankfully my past self has already done it

 

[BH40love]

Pistol Pete hit aces at critical moments and 2nd serve was just as good as 1st.
Karlovic most aces ever doesn’t make him the best server. With that logic, Connors is best ever bc he has most wins.

 

[Standaa]

Pistol Pete hit aces at critical moments

yeah like Karlovic doesn’t

2nd serve was just as good as 1st.

hardly

 

[BH40love]

LMAO Pete hit 2nd serve aces like it was a first serve.
It’s clear to see on you tube

 

[BH40love]

Karlovic last match hit 6 aces to 6 DF vs Tiafoe. His 2nd serve % was under 40 what the are you talking about slim shady. Also he won a total of 6 games in 3 sets some serve

 

[JW10S]

Wayne Arthurs was mentioned earlier in this thread and as just an anecdotal account I remember seeing him play the qualifying of a tournament. The qualifying matches, like in many tournaments, were played on different courts than the main draw matches. These courts were the standard 60'x120' 'Championship' courts you see at clubs and schools. Arthurs was a lefty and he could hit a kick serve into the deuce court that would hit the side fence before his opponent could touch it, it was amazing. His motion was very smooth and effortless looking and he could move the ball around off of the same toss. I don't think he gets enough credit for his serve. But still for my money the best of all time goes to Pancho Gonzalez.

 

[Waspsting]

I've put together Fed's hardcourt numbers now, and actually they're as good as McEnroe's.

It looks to me like its just his best that's on par with Mac's best.... but Mac's over 30% in 4/5 of his matches. Fed just 6/14

Mac's serve-volleying would of course help that

Also interesting that it's Gerulaitis who kept Mac to his lowest... not Borg or Lendl, two guys known for having terrific return rates

1987 USO Lendl 17.8%... Wilander 23.2%
1988 USO Lendl 16.4%...Wilander 13.8%

These numbers are a bit surprising to me.... what gives? Wilander's high consistent returning? or Lendl serving (and in the case of '87) or/and returning badly? serve-volleying an issue?

at '87 Masters final on a similar paced court (slower, I think), I have Lendl at 28%, Wilander 19%.... Wilander serve-volleyed a fair bit there

 

[krosero]

It looks to me like its just his best that's on par with Mac's best.... but Mac's over 30% in 4/5 of his matches. Fed just 6/14

I was surprised (still am) to find their numbers so comparable, but you're certainly right.

You can see it also if you take a simple median for each player in his hardcourt GS finals

Sampras – 41.0%
Roddick – 38.4% (average of his two USO finals)
Rafter – 37.8% (average of his two numbers)
McEnroe – 34.1%
Becker – 32.0%
Edberg - 27.8% (average of his two middle numbers in four finals, excluding ret. at 1990 AO)
Federer – 27.2%
Wilander - 23.2% (from three finals, listed below)
Lendl – 22.9% (average of his two middle numbers)
Connors – 18.6%
Borg – 17.3%

(Roddick in all 13 of his hardcourt matches listed above – median is 38.1%)

[edited to add Wilander and Edberg]

These numbers are a bit surprising to me.... what gives? Wilander's high consistent returning? or Lendl serving (and in the case of '87) or/and returning badly? serve-volleying an issue?

at '87 Masters final on a similar paced court (slower, I think), I have Lendl at 28%, Wilander 19%.... Wilander serve-volleyed a fair bit there

That surprised me too but I think Lendl was gunning his first serve in both matches so that was not a problem. I would put this down to Wilander keeping his opponent's rate down.

Wilander in his 11 GS finals (I've bolded those times in which Wilander’s rate was higher than his opponent’s):

1983 AO final	Wilander 30.48%	Lendl 22.8%
1984 AO final	Wilander 28.47%	Curren 25.7%
1985 AO final	Wilander 28.1%	Edberg 37.8%
1988 AO final	Wilander 26.1%	Cash 24.7%
1987 USO final	Wilander 23.2%	Lendl 17.8%
1987 RG final	Wilander 21.48%	Lendl 18.8%
1988 RG final	Wilander 15.3%	Leconte 17.6%
1988 USO final	Wilander 13.8%	Lendl 16.4%
1985 RG final*	Wilander 11.7%	Lendl 11.8%
1983 RG final	Wilander 8.9%	Noah 15.4%
1982 RG final	Wilander 6.0%	Vilas 7.4%

All the other matches i have for him:

1985 Wimb R128	Wilander 36.1%	Zivojinovic 38.9%
1986 Wimb R16	Wilander 30.7%	Cash 23.4%
1988 USO SF	Wilander 19.0%	Cahill 12.9%
1987 YEC final	Wilander 18.8%	Lendl 27.7%
1987 USO SF	Wilander 18.7%	Edberg 17.9%
1989 Davis Cup	Wilander 18.4%	Becker 50.0%
1985 RG SF	Wilander 18.1%	McEnroe 14.2%
1985 USO SF	Wilander 17.9%	McEnroe 25.7%
1988 Wimb QF	Wilander 15.9%	Mecir 20.4%
1988 Davis Cup	Wilander 15.8%	Noah 24.9%
1987 Wimb QF	Wilander 13.7%	Cash 24.5%
1988 RG SF	Wilander 13.0%	Agassi 5.3%
1984 YEC SF	Wilander 12.5%	McEnroe 16.2%
1988 AO SF	Wilander 11.8%	Edberg 25.2%
1983 YEC SF	Wilander 9.5%	McEnroe 22.6%
1984 Davis Cup final**	Wilander 8.8%	McEnroe 34.4%

* Wilander missing a few pts.
** indoor clay

This is something that interests me a lot when I look at unreturned rates: how much the return plays a factor; matches in which a great server will be topped in the unreturned numbers by someone who's not a great server; etc. Obviously when that happens it could be due to poor serving, great returning, unexpectedly good serving from the normally inferior server, poor returning from the superior server; or some combination.

Murray has topped Federer in 2 of 3 Slam finals; he also topped Raonic at Wimb. Chang topped Becker in their AO final (didn't do too badly against Pete in '96 USO final either). Connors edged Lendl at '83 USO. Nastase topped Stan Smith at Wimbledon in '72. Rosewall topped Roche in their 1970 USO final (27.7% to 26.7%), and came within half a percentage point of topping Newcombe in their '70 Wimb final.

And Rosewall topped Pancho Gonzalez once in a marathon 15-13 set they played in Richmond (March '57), 42.9% to 26.6%.

Edberg topped Becker at Wimb in 1990, and Becker's three lowest rates in 7 Wimbledon finals were his 3 against Edberg.

 

[krosero]

The medians for the Wimbledon-finals lists that start at https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...rves-of-all-time.306579/page-27#post-13625195

(edited to add Laver, Newcombe, Smith, Lendl, Rafter, Nadal and Murray)

Sampras – 51.9%
Ivanisevic – 45.9% (average of his two middle numbers)
Rafter - 40.1% (average of his two finals)
Federer – 35.8% (average of his two middle numbers)
Becker – 35.1%
McEnroe – 34.8%
Roddick - 33.3%
Lendl – 31.9% (average of his two finals)
Edberg - 31.6%
Djokovic – 31.4% (average of his two middle numbers)
Murray – 31.2%
Newcombe – 30.3% (three Wimbledon finals in total)
Borg – 28.6%
Nadal - 26.1% (average of his two middle numbers)
Smith - 23.6% (average of his two finals)
Laver - 20.4% (three finals charted: 1959, 1960, 1969; the first two missing some games)
Connors – 19.6% (average of his two middle numbers)

 

[krosero]

Sampras has topped the grass and hardcourt lists of GS finals so far, but he's not king indoors. Becker is, with the slightest lead over McEnroe.

Becker 8 YEC finals – median is 37.3%

1995 YEC final	Becker 50.0%	Chang 29.1%
1994 YEC final	Becker 47.0%	Sampras 33.0%
1996 YEC final	Becker 43.0%	Sampras 31.3%
1992 YEC final	Becker 42.3%	Courier 31.9%
1988 YEC final	Becker 32.3%	Lendl 24.1%
1986 YEC final	Becker 31.3%	Lendl 34.2%
1985 YEC final	Becker 27.9%	Lendl 20.7%
1989 YEC final	Becker 27.3%	Edberg 29.7%

(Becker edged out once again by Edberg)


McEnroe 4 YEC finals – median is 36.2%

1984 YEC final	McEnroe 39.3%	Lendl 22.7%
1983 YEC final	McEnroe 37.1%	Lendl 24.0%
1978 YEC final	McEnroe 35.2%	Ashe 35.4%
1982 YEC final	McEnroe 28.4%	Lendl 32.5%

Sampras 6 YEC finals – median is 32.1%

1997 YEC final	Sampras 42.0%	Kafelnikov 21.1%
1994 YEC final	Sampras 33.0%	Becker 47.0%
1999 YEC final	Sampras 32.9%	Agassi 34.9%
1996 YEC final	Sampras 31.3%	Becker 43.0%
1993 YEC final	Sampras 25.5%	Stich 39.8%
1991 YEC final	Sampras 25.0%	Courier 19.3%

Thanks to @Waspsting for recently charting Sampras-Kafelnikov, the only one I was missing.


Lendl 9 YEC finals – median is 24.1%

1986 YEC final	Lendl 34.2%	Becker 31.3%
1981 YEC final	Lendl 34.1%	Gerulaitis 21.3%
1982 YEC final	Lendl 32.5%	McEnroe 28.4%
1987 YEC final	Lendl 27.7%	Wilander 18.8%
1988 YEC final	Lendl 24.1%	Becker 32.3%
1983 YEC final	Lendl 24.0%	McEnroe 37.1%
1984 YEC final	Lendl 22.7%	McEnroe 39.3%
1985 YEC final	Lendl 20.7%	Becker 27.9%
1980 YEC final	Lendl 11.1%	Borg 23.53%

 

[Waspsting]

re: Mats Wilander -

one to add
- 85 Cincy final, Wilander 26.1%, Becker 41.7%

There's also the French Open match with Lendl in '82, my stats for which are missing at least 10 points
If you got the figures for the '88 Davis Cup match with Noah from me... that one's missing a few points too

1988 RG SF....Wilander 13.0%.....Agassi 5.3%

Did Wilander manage to return all the 2nd serves in that one?
----

I think some of these numbers are easier to grasp if we look at it from the perspective of return rates as well as unreturned serves (what I've dubbed 'serve-return' complex).That's likely important to Wilander's surprising figures - we're talking about an average servers who's outserved heavies like Curren, Lendl, McEnroe and Edberg, mostly on fast courts

That and what is presumably inversely related to it - aggressive intent of return (applying the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index to returns would give a hard number to measure that by)

From what I've seen, the guy is a robot for consistency. 2 breaks up (or down), down 40-0 second serve, he'll play the return just carefully as at any other time, with the focus on getting it in play (would also explain some of the high winner rates we've seen him on the receiving end of)

Murray has topped Federer in 2 of 3 Slam finals;

This one is all about Murray's superior return. I'm sure if we made lists for players by return rate, he'd be near the top of the pile. I know he usually outaces Federer

Chang topped Becker in their AO final (didn't do too badly against Pete in '96 USO final either)

First one is about Becker returning with very attacking intent... usually leads to lower return rates (in the case of McEnroe, not always). Sampras trailing Agassi at YEC '99 another such case
Second is about Sampras pseudo-tanked returning... one of the most nonchalant returning displays I've seen
--

the figures you've presented for Borg are lower than I'd imagined they'd be

I thought he was a Lendl so to speak, his numbers look more like a Wilander

Do you have a list for unreturned serves for Borg-McEnroe matches?

 

[krosero]

Wasp asked me about 2010 USO in another thread, I found this ATP article with cumulative stats for Nadal and Djokovic in their first 6 rounds.

Below is a statistical look at how 2010 US Open finalists Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic have performed in their six matches en route to the title match.​

​

Nadal has better service statistics, with 37 aces to 22, 84 percent of first-serve points won (to 71 percent) and just two breaks of his own serve (to Djokovic's 13).​

​

But Djokovic has the edge on returns, putting slightly more returns into play and winning more points on the first and second serves, and converting more break points.​

​

Nadal has been more effective at net, but Djokovic has hit more forehand winners and more than double the amount of backhand winners hit by Nadal.​

​

Despite losing four sets to Nadal's none, Djokovic has spent little more than one hour more on court than the Spaniard.​

​

SERVE​

​

Nadal Djokovic​

​

Aces 37 22​

Double Faults 11 24​

Unreturned Serves 39% 25%​

1st Serve % 64% 69%​

1st Serve Points 84% 71%​

2nd Serve Points 67% 56%​

Service Games Won 98% 88%​

Broken 2 13​

Break Points Saved 88% 72%​

​

​

RETURN of SERVE​

​

Returns in Play 72% 73%​

1st Return Points Won 31% 34%​

2nd Return Points Won 52% 54%​

Breaks of Serve 21 31​

Break Points Converted 41% 45%​

Return Games Won 24% 30%​

​

​

TACTICS​

​

Net Points Won 76 / 108 119 / 192​

Net Points Won 70% 62%​

Baseline Points Won 55% 55%​

​

​

STROKES​

​

Forehand Winners 70 86​

Forehand Unforced 69 79​

Backhand Winners 18 47​

Backhand Unforced 54 82​

Total Winners 163 188​

Total Unforced Errors 135 198​

​

​

SERVE SPEEDS​

Fastest Serve 135 MPH 128 MPH​

Average 1st Serve 119 MPH 113 MPH​

Average 2nd Serve 88 MPH 96 MPH​

​

​

SUMMARY​

Games Lost 70 86​

Sets Lost 0 4​

Time on Court 14:23 15:45​

​

- Statistics courtesy IBM, Leo Levin (IDS)​

 

[krosero]

re: Mats Wilander -

one to add
- 85 Cincy final, Wilander 26.1%, Becker 41.7%

There's also the French Open match with Lendl in '82, my stats for which are missing at least 10 points
If you got the figures for the '88 Davis Cup match with Noah from me... that one's missing a few points too



Did Wilander manage to return all the 2nd serves in that one?

Thanks for the Cincy match.

Wilander-Agassi, don't know, Moose charted the service numbers. But Mats has a good chance there of returning 100% on 2nd.

First one is about Becker returning with very attacking intent... usually leads to lower return rates (in the case of McEnroe, not always). Sampras trailing Agassi at YEC '99 another such case
Second is about Sampras pseudo-tanked returning... one of the most nonchalant returning displays I've seen

Yes and it adds another layer of nuance to all this. I was saying above that a guy might have a great unreturned rate due to his own great serving, or his opponent returning poorly. But a high URS rate might also be caused by an opponent returning GREAT, that is presuming that his aggressive strategy pays off (like it did for Federer against Nadal at Wimbledon this year).

It's very much like NonP has said about DF's: it might just be poor serving, but if the guy is going for great second serves, high DFs might be no more than an acceptable cost to a great strategy.

the figures you've presented for Borg are lower than I'd imagined they'd be

I thought he was a Lendl so to speak, his numbers look more like a Wilander

Do you have a list for unreturned serves for Borg-McEnroe matches?

Completed stats, all I have are the GS meetings and one at YEC.

1980 Wimb final	Borg 28.6%	McEnroe 38.8%
1980 USO final	Borg 15.2%	McEnroe 39.4%
1980 YEC RR	Borg 23.28%	McEnroe 33.6%
1981 Wimb final	Borg 24.0%	McEnroe 34.8%
1981 USO final	Borg 21.4%	McEnroe 30.7%

 

[krosero]

Here are some partial counts

1949 US Champs final	Gonzalez 36.4%	Schroeder 27.5%	(only the 34-game first set)
1957 Richmond WS	Rosewall 42.9%	Gonzalez 26.6%	(only the 28-game third set)
1959 Wimb final	Olmedo 28.3%	Laver 25.6%	(24 of 29 games)
1960 Wimb final	Fraser 31.1%	Laver 20.4%	(36 of 47 games)
1968 USO final	Ashe 52.2%	Okker 35.8%	(only the 26-game first set)
1969 AO SF	Roche 24.8%	Laver 24.7%	(31 of 90 games)
1969 Wimb R128	Gonzalez 30.1%	Pasarell 26.6%	(59 of 112 games)
1974 USO R64	Borg 42.6%	Amritraj 19.8%	(3/5 sets, or 24/44 games)
1975 Las Vegas Challenge Match	Laver 38.46%	Connors 20.0%	(15 of 39 games)
1975 Wimb SF	Ashe 39.3%	Roche 38.3%	(38 of 61 games)
1987 AO SF	Cash 31.0%	Lendl 21.9%	(3/4 sets, or 35/48 games)
1996 RG QF	Courier 39.6%	Sampras 33.3%	(2/5 sets, or 20/53 games)

Thanks to Moose for most of these. I did the Laver matches but he got all the rest (from 1959 forward since that's the oldest footage we've seen).

As always, you can find all the underlying data for a match in the Match Stats thread, if one of us here charted and posted it.

[Edited to add '96 RG]

 

[hoodjem]

Goran gave PETE a much tougher match just two days before though. Sure, that was peak Goran and he played super well except the usual choking, which did him in eventually, can't throw a bad service game in the fifth set and expect to get away with it.

Yes. Goran was pretty tough for Sampras at Wimbledon. Let's not forget that Goran and Pete met at Wimbledon four times--with Sampras winning three of them. But Goran did manage to beat Pete in four at their very first Wimbledon meeting in the 1992 semis. And the 1995 and 1998 matches both went five sets. (Only the 1994 final was a straight-set win for Pete.)

 

[krosero]

Federer 7 YEC finals indoors – median is 36.0%

2011 YEC final	Federer 38.8%	Tsonga 33.7%
2010 YEC final	Federer 37.5%	Nadal 28.8%
2007 YEC final	Federer 37.0%	Ferrer 15.9%
2006 YEC final	Federer 36.0%	Blake 22.2%
2015 YEC final	Federer 27.1%	Djokovic 30.4%
2012 YEC final	Federer 23.7%	Djokovic 21.4%
2005 YEC final	Federer 22.9%	Nalbandian 18.4%

These are his two outdoor YEC finals

2004 YEC final (hard-O)	Federer 36.2%	Hewitt 20.0%
2003 YEC final (hard-O)	Federer 35.7%	Agassi 17.6%

Federer 14 hardcourt GS finals – median 27.2%

2018 AO final	Federer 46.8%	Cilic 34.8%
2005 USO final	Federer 41.1%	Agassi 19.847%
2007 USO final	Federer 34.0%	Djokovic 28.4%
2017 AO final	Federer 32.6%	Nadal 25.8%
2004 AO final	Federer 32.2%	Safin 15.52%
2015 USO final	Federer 32.1%	Djokovic 20.0%
2006 USO final	Federer 27.2%	Roddick 26.2%
2008 USO final	Federer 27.2%	Murray 18.5%
2007 AO final	Federer 26.7%	Gonzalez 21.3%
2009 USO final	Federer 26.0%	Del Potro 22.2%
2004 USO final	Federer 25.8%	Hewitt 18.7%
2009 AO final	Federer 22.7%	Nadal 18.9%
2006 AO final	Federer 22.2%	Baghdatis 27.2%
2010 AO final	Federer 20.5%	Murray 23.1%

Nadal 10 hardcourt GS finals – median 24.45%

2017 USO final	Nadal 37.5%	Anderson 32.4%
2010 USO final	Nadal 28.6%	Djokovic 13.3%
2019 AO final	Nadal 27.4%	Djokovic 24.6%
2012 AO final	Nadal 27.1%	Djokovic 22.9%
2017 AO final	Nadal 25.8%	Federer 32.6%
2014 AO final	Nadal 23.1%	Wawrinka 44.8%
2009 AO final	Nadal 18.9%	Federer 22.7%
2019 USO final	Nadal 18.9%	Medvedev 18.7%
2013 USO final	Nadal 15.7%	Djokovic 14.4%
2011 USO final	Nadal 15.6%	Djokovic 16.54%

Nadal 5 Wimbledon finals – median 26.1%

2010 Wimb final	Nadal 34.4%	Berdych 32.1%
2011 Wimb final	Nadal 34.1%	Djokovic 30.5%
2008 Wimb final	Nadal 26.1%	Federer 34.4%
2006 Wimb final	Nadal 22.8%	Federer 39.4%
2007 Wimb final	Nadal 19.2%	Federer 37.2%

Great majority of these calculated from TA’s match charts.

 

[hoodjem]

Peak Krammer > Peak Gonazlez ? Peak Kammer > Peak HOAD?

Max Krammer? Austrian player born in Vienna in 1988, coached by Markus Liebhaber? Career high 1035 on 24 August 2009?



I couldn't find find Gonazlez.

 

[Moose Malloy]

here are stats on another Philippoussis match.

Philippoussis d Kafelnikov 63, 67, 62 Basel QF '97
39 of 80 service points were unreturned or 49%. 19 were aces
19 of Kafelnikov's 86 service points were unreturned or 22%. 1 was an ace.

 

[lud]

1.. Ivo Karlovic
- - -
- - -
- - -
2.. Pete Sampras
3.. Goran Ivanisevic
4.. John Isner
5.. Roger Federer
6.. Richard Krajicek
7.. Andy Roddick
8.. Nick Kyrgios
9.. Ivan Ljubicic
10.. Wayne Arthurs

It pisses me of hos people seems to forget about Ljubicic and especially Arthurs.

 

[legrandLeconte]

1. Ivanisevic
2. Sampras
3. McEnroe
4. Stich
5. S.Smith
6. Becker
7. Newcombe
8. R.Tanner
9. Roddick
10. Gonzales

 

[King No1e]

1. Karlovic
2. Sampras
3. Ivanisevic
4. Isner
5. Federer
6. Becker
7. Krajicek
8. Roddick
9. Raonic
10. Stich

 

[skaj]

I'll give it a try myself:
1. Sampras
2. Karlovic
3. Isner
4. Ivanisevic
5. Roddick
6. Raonic
7. Federer
8. Becker
9. Krajicek
10. McEnroe

WTA:
1. Serena
2. Stosur
3. Davenport
4. Navratilova
5. Venus
6. Schultz
7. Petrova
8. Mauresmo
9. Sabalenka
10. Court

 

[Dan Lobb]

One of the greatest servers ever was Sangster, here shown in 1962 at Forest Hills against Emerson, starting at the 26:00 point.

At one point Emerson is clearly frustrated with Sangster's unreturnable serves.

 

[Moose Malloy]

i have the stats for all sets except for the 2nd set. in all versions of the match that i have they switch to the end of agassi-woodroof match, plus interviews, so 4 or 5 games are skipped. that was exactly when sampras broke bruguera. atp stats are a complete mess, and cannot be used to calculate points in this case by substracting aces and dfs (notice they have sampras with 9 aces and bruguera with 11). and i couldn't find anywhere how many points were played in this match, or how many points each player won. but here are stats for sampras' unreturned serves that i have

set 1 - 14/28

set 3 - 18/52
set 4 - 9/27
set 5 - 12/33

in 2nd set he had 8 in the part of the set that is shown, including 2 aces. so in total he had at least 61 unreturned serve out of unknown number of points

Don't know if you still logon here, but the complete Sampras Bruguera match has been added to then Roland Garros youtube channel! no commentary. pretty fast paced five setter.

 

[The Green Mile]

I remember when Hewitt started off the match against Ivo at Queens 2012 with a 1st serve return winner in his first two return games. Ivo then aced him four times in the first game to hold, then three in a row in the 2nd game. I found it funny at the time. It's one of his best matches ace percentage wise.

 

[hoodjem]

Roscoe Tanner had the best serve. Dude could hit 120 mph with a horrible, low powered aluminum racket. Jimmy Connors used a high powered, trampoline-like metal frame and couldn't come close to the speed of Tanner's.

Is that what Connors used?
I had a T-2000, and thought it was a metal-snowshoe experiment gone wrong. With a sweetspot the size of a Bolivar 10c green, it rattled and buzzed every time you hit the ball.

 

[NLBwell]

Is that what Connors used?
I had a T-2000, and thought it was a metal-snowshoe experiment gone wrong. With a sweetspot the size of a Bolivar 10c green, it rattled and buzzed every time you hit the ball.

Yes, whenever I tried to play with a T-2000 I thought it was terrible. I actually played with a Sheffield (later Garcia) X-15. A much better steel racket than the crazy T-2000.

 

[2ndServe]

Is there a stat for just serves and service winners/serves? Sampras is up there but man his volleys, movement, ground game etc are so much better than Karlovic I'm not sure how you just extrapolate the serve.

Also Sampras probably played a lot better players and returners like agassi/courier/chang than Karlovic who's racking aces on nobodies

 

[Deleted member 768841]

Here's a good view of Vines' and Budge's serves, especially Vines' serve at about 1:20:

Man, that is old! Weird seeing baseline rallies in black and white, especially with pants and ties.

 

[slice serve ace]

Don't know if you still logon here, but the complete Sampras Bruguera match has been added to then Roland Garros youtube channel! no commentary. pretty fast paced five setter.

can't remember when i last logged in, but i still check, even if very rarely, as you can see by this answer to you, only a month later noticed that match and downloaded it, and made the stats, which i haven't done in ages. so, serve-wise, both had 14 aces, bruguera with 41 unreturned serves out of 130, sampras with 63 out of 179. in total, sampras won just 1 point more, 155 to 154. bruguera won 72% of his service points, sampras 66% and yet sampras won
so, my last post here? probably, just wanted to say hello one more time to you, krosero, nonp and others i forgot. take care!

 

[Deleted member 22147]

The serves that spring to mind for me are Karlovic, Isner, J. Johansson, Krajicek, Ivanisevic, Sampras, Philippoussis.

 

[Deleted member 777746]

wow...roddick lower than stich

ok. interesting choice.

roddick wins more 1st serve % pts than stich and sampras i believe.
that too in this reduced court speed era.

Roddick also gets more serves in, with more top, and more pace because of the Poly era. Something you gotta consider as well