Drob
Hall of Fame
I don't think so. 130 (210 km/h) off-the-racket is just about as fast as possible under the conditions at the time. I think Perry is close to correct, notwithstanding it is so many years later.
Greatest Serves of All Time
- Thread starter NonP
- Start date
I don't think so. 130 (210 km/h) off-the-racket is just about as fast as possible under the conditions at the time. I think Perry is close to correct, notwithstanding it is so many years later.
Vincent-C
Legend
Good to see David Pate on your list. Noah's was a beauty, and effective as well.
Vincent-C
Legend
It's nice to see Forget get a mention- I really liked his overall game including the *big* lefty serve, and wish he'd done better in Majors.
Maybe another good thread topic.
Drob
Hall of Fame
This project is probably not intended to reach past The Great War, but I happened to be rummaging around some of the krosero archelology, and he excavated a few pre-War parchments. These precious few relics with ace counts for Maurice McLoughlin:
1914 Davis Cup Challenge Round vs. Norman Brookes: 21 aces/25 service games. Huge Match against one of the greats.
1915 US Nat'l SF vs. Theodore Pell: 12/12 (or 13)
But also more normal-looking:
1913 US Nat'l SF vs. Wallace Johnson: 6/19
1914 US Nat'l SF vs. Dick Williams: 11/20
And, the day after his 12/12, only 3 aces in 20 service games vs. Billy Johnston.
". . . was given credit for taking tennis from the softer game it had been before he came along with his mighty service and samashing style . . .
. . . Oddly enough, the Comet lost his famous service shortly after the Davis Cup matches of 1914. He doesn't quite know what happened, except that he was unable to swing a racket with his old freedom. 'The big punch suddeny left,' he said.'"
Grantland Rice, "The Comet," in Danzig and Schwed, The Fireside Book of Tennis, p. 83.
Potentially fascinating performances from the "Red" McLoughlin.
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Vincent-C
Legend
I like that photo a lot: you can tell that he's going to seriously **** that ball up..
This project is probably not intended to reach past The Great War, but I happened to be rummaging around some of the krosero archelology, and he excavated a few pre-War parchments. These precious few relics with ace counts for Maurice McLoughlin:
1914 Davis Cup Challenge Round vs. Norman Brookes: 21 aces/25 service games. Huge Match against one of the greats.
1915 US Nat'l SF vs. Theodore Pell: 12/12 (or 13)
But also more normal-looking:
1913 US Nat'l SF vs. Wallace Johnson: 6/19
1914 US Nat'l SF vs. Dick Williams: 11/12
And, the day after his 12/12, only 3 aces in 20 service games vs. Billy Johnston.
". . . was given credit for taking tennis from the softer game it had been before he came along with his mighty service and samashing style . . .
. . . Oddly enough, the Comet lost his famous service shortly after the Davis Cup matches of 1914. He doesn't quite know what happened, except that he was unable to swing a racket with his old freedom. 'The big punch suddeny left,' e said.'"
Grantland Rice, "The Comet," in Danzig and Schwed, The Fireside Book of Tennis, p. 83.
Potentially fascinating performances from the "Red" McLoughlin.
chrischris
G.O.A.T.
This project is probably not intended to reach past The Great War, but I happened to be rummaging around some of the krosero archelology, and he excavated a few pre-War parchments. These precious few relics with ace counts for Maurice McLoughlin:
1914 Davis Cup Challenge Round vs. Norman Brookes: 21 aces/25 service games. Huge Match against one of the greats.
1915 US Nat'l SF vs. Theodore Pell: 12/12 (or 13)
But also more normal-looking:
1913 US Nat'l SF vs. Wallace Johnson: 6/19
1914 US Nat'l SF vs. Dick Williams: 11/20
And, the day after his 12/12, only 3 aces in 20 service games vs. Billy Johnston.
". . . was given credit for taking tennis from the softer game it had been before he came along with his mighty service and samashing style . . .
. . . Oddly enough, the Comet lost his famous service shortly after the Davis Cup matches of 1914. He doesn't quite know what happened, except that he was unable to swing a racket with his old freedom. 'The big punch suddeny left,' he said.'"
Grantland Rice, "The Comet," in Danzig and Schwed, The Fireside Book of Tennis, p. 83.
Potentially fascinating performances from the "Red" McLoughlin.
Jolly good!
chrischris
G.O.A.T.
Q1
Wasnt Heston a bit of a phoney.
Charlton Heston would have been a perfect lead announcer for big tennis matches in U.S. I read that he wanted to portray Richard Gonzalez in a movie in the late 1950s, and that the idea was taken seriously by producers and such but failed to come together.
Wasnt Heston a bit of a phoney.
Vincent-C
Legend
Great clip! That Laver low FH volley at :25 is just textbook-perfect: he gets *down* for it, wrist low and laid back, racquet head high;
then punches right *through* the ball, nothing wishy-washy there! Why can't these mugs today do this (not even..)?
Drob
Hall of Fame
Not sure what you mean, but I'll hazard a guess. I will be careful to not get too deep into the issues, so the post passes muster. This is just a factual recounting, based on the little I know.
Heston was one of many Hollywood stars who changed their views in the 1970s, moving from liberal Democrats toward something more like Reaganism. I could give you my understanding of why I think he changed, but, I don't know, that might be frowned upon by admin.
Heston was controversial because he was strongly pro- gun rights. He was President of the National Rifle Association. However, when he was elected, it was seen as a victory for the "moderate" wing of the NRA. I guess there was a moderate wing back then. Being an actor, I guess, he did get a bit dramatic in some of his statements about gun rights. But he could laugh at himself about it.
Interestingly, at the same time, he was also President of the Screen Actors Guild. By all accounts he was a zealous advocate for actor's rights and concerns and was very effective. But the majority of Hollywood was uncomfortable having a prominent gun rights activist as their president also. So he was replaced - I think by Ed Asner.
Earlier, Chuck was slightly involved in the Civil Rights movement - "slightly" or "barely" by Heston's own characterization. He always supported the basic Civil Rights legislation. Here he is picketing a segregated restaurant ca. 1959-60. He never wavered in this. It seems he thought The Great Society went too far and he was a little threatened by the cultural changes of the late 1960s and 70s.
As an actor, he unfortunately did not get that many good parts and by the mid or late 1970s was kind of a has-been, although barely over 50. When he got a good part, he was one of the best. Ben Hur may be his only absolute critical/commercial blockbuster as a leading man (think "Oppenheimer"). The Ten Commandments was kind of a hit. He did some beautiful acting in some interesting films- A Touch of Evil, The Big Country (supporting role), Soylent Green, Omega Man, Major Dundee, and, maybe his best performance was in an overlooked film called Will Penny. He was the kind of actor who was cast as Henry VIII, Cardinal Richelieu, Andrew Jackson, Sir Thomas Moore, Moses, John the Baptist, and Sherlock Holmes. He also played Antony in the 1970s movie of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar and was the best thing in that disappointing attempt. Heston was practically the only major American actor of his generation who was comfortable doing Shakespeare. If I am not mistaken, he had a few turns in Shakespeare plays in London. He was so good that Kenneth Branaugh cast him as The Player King in his Hamlet. This is the traveling actor who performs the play-within-the-play. It is an important scene, and Branaugh selected Heston.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Agree w you on making Vines more prominent. I think I wrote a few weeks ago that he should be considered among the top-20 on this ongoing "consensus list." Should easily be on the list.
But you err in saying Perry never beat Vines as an amateur. It was 5-2 in Vines favor, two of Elly's wins going five sets. I would not be hyper-technical normally, but one of Perry's wins was an historically weighty match - the 1933 Davis Cup Interzone Final. That is like overlooking if Perry had beaten Vines at a Wimbledon semifinal. Their most important match without doubt. Most important single match. Those nine, down-to-the-wire bouts between April 30 and May 11 1937, the date Vines clinched the pro championship may rank higher. But I think the 1933 Interzone Final is of greater import than the 1939 US Pro Final.
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Agreed. That was a quote from a source, not my own statement.
I was aware of the Davis Cup match. What was the other one?
bigjimbofan
Semi-Pro
Indeed. Pate had a very unusual looking serve that looked very hard to read. I had almost forgottten about him.
Drob
Hall of Fame
1931 - one of those international "friendlies" they played, which were actually somewhat important at the time, this one a USA-GB-FRA competition. 6-3, 7-5
Drob
Hall of Fame
Yes. Provocative. Guys should purchase it IMO. If enough of us read it, Jordan's book, titled The All Time Greatest Servers, will surely serve to reignite the spirited discussions and debates on this thread, which eventually went dormant. Time to get lively again.
Readily available through an on-line retailer or bookstore.
Provocative? In tennis?
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Hall of Fame
That's a pretty serve, a bit like Stich's. Would totally be lethal today too. A lot of today's serves are just not nice to look at.
Grafil Injection
Hall of Fame
That linked me to this:
Tennis Players Serve, since 1919 - O Saque no Tênis durante o Tempo
Which shows neither Sampras nor Becker dropped the racket on edge, but had the face open like Steffi too. Also shows the similarity between Laver and Edberg with abbreviated take-backs.
No, that was a dead rubber when Perry outlasted Vines, who withdrew by collapsing on the court. The tie was clinched when Austin defeated Allison in the fourth match.
1933 International Lawn Tennis Challenge - Wikipedia
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Nole Ivanisevic
Rookie
Former
1.Sampras
2/3. Federer and Edberg in terms of point preparation.Almost imposible for opponents to break them on a good day.
The "new" ones
Sinner,Korda,Fritz.
1.Sampras
2/3. Federer and Edberg in terms of point preparation.Almost imposible for opponents to break them on a good day.
The "new" ones
Sinner,Korda,Fritz.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Johnny Doeg 1930 US Nat'l SF v Tilden:
28 Aces in 29 service games.
Arthur Voss, Tilden and Tennis in the Twenties, p. 180, Troy, New York: The Whitston Pusblishing Company 1985
Or, 29/29, which is how it is recorded in The All Time Greatest Servers. Based on roughly 20 or more matches where the aces were recorded (usually newspaper accounts), Chris Jordan has Doeg at 0.67 aces per service game. That is an extremely high rate for that time. It is only 20 or so samples, but still . . . they show that not infrequently Doeg could average an ace per game. The records extant indicate he might have been erratic in his ability to get the aces. But his 0.67 is up there with some top servers of the 1990s and even to recent years. It is better than Stich, clearly better than Berdych, slightly better than Zeverev, right about even with Guy Forget, and close to Marin Cilic and Taylor Fritz. Consider, as we always must, the heavy, (non-laminated), stiff wood racket and prohibition against jumping into the serve, and this indicates possibly one of the deadlier acers in tennis history. He apparently did not have much else in his game, so it must have been quite a serve.
28 Aces in 29 service games.
Arthur Voss, Tilden and Tennis in the Twenties, p. 180, Troy, New York: The Whitston Pusblishing Company 1985
Or, 29/29, which is how it is recorded in The All Time Greatest Servers. Based on roughly 20 or more matches where the aces were recorded (usually newspaper accounts), Chris Jordan has Doeg at 0.67 aces per service game. That is an extremely high rate for that time. It is only 20 or so samples, but still . . . they show that not infrequently Doeg could average an ace per game. The records extant indicate he might have been erratic in his ability to get the aces. But his 0.67 is up there with some top servers of the 1990s and even to recent years. It is better than Stich, clearly better than Berdych, slightly better than Zeverev, right about even with Guy Forget, and close to Marin Cilic and Taylor Fritz. Consider, as we always must, the heavy, (non-laminated), stiff wood racket and prohibition against jumping into the serve, and this indicates possibly one of the deadlier acers in tennis history. He apparently did not have much else in his game, so it must have been quite a serve.
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Dan Maskell, gives an eye-witness report on this semifinal match in his book From where i sit, p.91. He writes, that the court was awful, and both players wore spikes. John Doeg from San Diego, had an egg-ball lefty serve, he was the son of Violet Sutton, the sister of May Sutton, who had won Wim in 1905. May Sutton later became May Bundy, and had a daughter Dorothy, who was herself a very good player.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Does this blended stat make Alexander Zverev the game's most effective server? | ATP Tour | Tennis
Alexander Zverev is the peak performer with first-serves made over the past 52 weeks at an astonishing 72.4 per cent. How does that align when you examine points won behind his first serve?
www.atptour.com
TheFifthSet
Legend
After a couple minutes of not-so-careful deliberation:
1. Karlovic
2. Ivanisevic
3. Isner
4. Sampras
5. Gonzales
6. Krajicek
7. Opelka
8. Arthurs
9. Roddick
10. Kyrgios
11. Philippoussis
12. Raonic
13. Tanner
14. Kramer
15. Rusedski
16. Becker
17. Vines
18. Stich
19. Newcombe
20. Curren
21. Zivojinovic
22. McEnroe
23. Denton
24. Muller
25. Anderson
HO’s: Federer, Hurkacz, Querrey, Johansson, Doeg, Noah, Tilden
1. Karlovic
2. Ivanisevic
3. Isner
4. Sampras
5. Gonzales
6. Krajicek
7. Opelka
8. Arthurs
9. Roddick
10. Kyrgios
11. Philippoussis
12. Raonic
13. Tanner
14. Kramer
15. Rusedski
16. Becker
17. Vines
18. Stich
19. Newcombe
20. Curren
21. Zivojinovic
22. McEnroe
23. Denton
24. Muller
25. Anderson
HO’s: Federer, Hurkacz, Querrey, Johansson, Doeg, Noah, Tilden
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Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Hall of Fame
You've got Stich there two times. And Federer had a better serve than him anyway. Hurkacz is also better than Zivojinovic.
Vincent-C
Legend
Good to see Goran near the top. That easy motion..
TheFifthSet
Legend
Yep, caught it right after I sent it.
I don't know about either claim though, Stich with all-gut and an inferior overall game had great service numbers despite being a bit of a 'case.
Zivo I definitely disagree about, if anything I'm ranking him too low to counteract my ex-Yugo bias.
His numbers in the charted matches we have are pretty impressive, eg 27% ace rate against Connors in '87 Wimby, 11% (and 82% first serve points) against Mac, the only two we have of him. Also in '91 on his last legs he put up a 15% ace rate and 76/56/86 first serve won%/second serve won%/service game % splits.
TheFifthSet
Legend
And to think, there is arguably a Croatian with an even better delivery.
Goran's, when on, might've been better though.
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Hall of Fame
So you put Anderson in before Federer and Hurkacz – without him even being HO? But ok, it's your list. Yannick Noah should be in there too.Yep, caught it right after I sent it.
I don't know about either claim though, Stich with all-gut and an inferior overall game had great service numbers despite being a bit of a 'case.
Zivo I definitely disagree about, if anything I'm ranking him too low to counteract my ex-Yugo bias.
Also in '91 on his last legs he put up a 15% ace rate and 76/56/86 first serve won%/second serve won%/service game % splits.
TheFifthSet
Legend
KAndyman is 11th in unreturnables on the TA database, ahead of the likes of Roddick, Hubert, Stich, Muller etc. certainly a justifiable inclusion. The lack of a good short-angle wide serve is the only reservation I have about him. Cost him against Nadal in the USO final.
Federer has an argument, as his spot-serving style meshes really well with his third-ball forehand in addition to being a great shot on its own. Nonetheless, his all-time hold game does a lot of carrying here.
Noah had a beautiful serve, HO sounds about right. Like I said, didn’t really spend much time mulling it over.
What does yours look like?
ollinger
G.O.A.T.
He's actually a few months younger than Newcombe, who's on your list. He taught for years at a club about 5 miles from my home and yes, that serve was quite something.
Vincent-C
Legend
Noah did have a lovely, lovely serve; everything smooth and in sync. No wonder he was popular w/ the ladies..KAndyman is 11th in unreturnables on the TA database, ahead of the likes of Roddick, Hubert, Stich, Muller etc. certainly a justifiable inclusion. The lack of a good short-angle wide serve is the only reservation I have about him. Cost him against Nadal in the USO final.
Federer has an argument, as his spot-serving style meshes really well with his third-ball forehand in addition to being a great shot on its own. Nonetheless, his all-time hold game does a lot of carrying here.
Noah had a beautiful serve, HO sounds about right. Like I said, didn’t really spend much time mulling it over.
What does yours look like?
TheFifthSet
Legend
A smooth delivery helps everywhere.
Vincent-C
Legend
I wonder if Noah and Safin ever got a chance to compare notes on certain off-court matters.
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bigbadboaz
Semi-Pro
the one who is consistently cited as one of the best spot servers of all time..?
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
GMP worth watching for this thread!
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Might become the best ever.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
I wonder where GMP will be in a couple years or so on this sort of list. He might not do it in every single tournament, his 2nd serve average speed was well down from Basel against Tiafoe in Paris the week after, though I expect him to hammer down 125-130 mph averages in Faster/Indoor BO3 conditions, like Queens or Basel. Pete had matches every now and then where the 1st and 2nd looked fairly similar, but nothing like what we saw last week. I read that in the final, over 50% of his 2nd serves were unreturned, similar numbers all week as well. It's kind of revolutionary, what he did that week to win Basel. Some have talked (I know Roddick has) about what would happen if somebody essentially hit "two first serves", and we finally have somebody who has the height to pull it off and the balls to execute this sort of mentality and game plan.
landcookie
Professional
Where are them serve bots Opelka, Kyrgios and our boy GMP will be on there soon no doubt.
Also I think fed and Raonic should be much higher. Especially Raonic
Also I think fed and Raonic should be much higher. Especially Raonic
Hard Court
Rookie
For whatever reason, people seem to forget how big of a serve Lendl had. He occasionally had matches with a lot of double faults, but his serve was a weapon.
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