How can Rosewall NOT be the Goat?
The title of my post is voluntarily provocative
...
SgtJohn
I don't want to give a GOAT players' list because I've so much to study before giving that sort of list but I can give the following indications :
In chronological order the best ever players are : William Charles Renshaw, Reginald Frank Doherty, Hugh Laurence (Lawrence) Doherty, William Tatem Tilden II, John Donald Budge, John Albert Kramer, Richard Alonso Gonzales, Kenneth Robert Rosewall, Rodney George Laver, Björn Rune Borg, Petros Sampras
(I didn't know that Petros was his first name) and Roger Federer. At a lower level you have James Ernest Renshaw, Joshua Pim
(very underrated), Malcolm Douglass Whitman
(very underrated too), William Augustus Larned, Norman Everard Brookes, Anthony Frederick Wilding, William M. Johnston
(if someone knows what "M." is in reality I would be glad) , Jean René Lacoste, Henri Jean Cochet, Henry Ellsworth Vines Jr., Frederick John Perry, Robert Larimore Riggs, James Scott Connors, John Patrick McEnroe Jr., Ivan Lendl, Andre Kirk Agassi. Below are the following great players : Wilfred Baddeley, Francisco Olegario Segura, Frank Arthur Sedgman, Lewis Alan Hoad
(very overrated because many forget his innumerable injuries who prevented him from being better, the first quality of a sportsman is to be in good health), Mats Wilander, Stefan Bengt Edberg, Boris Franz Becker and Rafael Nadal Parera
(he will possibly improve as his first Australian Open win can indicate) . Finally John David Newcombe
(a player who could have been very great but, as his autobiography shows, had many lacks of will : in 71-72 he wanted to retire and once again after Wimby 73 and he virtually retired after the 1975 Australian) and Ilie Năstase (
another player who didn't fulfill his potential because he couldn't stand pressure : at Roland 70 and even 71 - Wimbledon 72, 73, 76 - Davis Cup 72 - US Open 73 - Masters 74, ... he could have won or at least made better).
I've perhaps forgotten some players.
All the lists in that forum completely underrate pre-WWI players (except HL Doherty) so they shouldn't be entitled
"Greatest Tennis Player of
All-Time" lists
but "Greatest Tennis Player
since the 20's" lists.
For instance George Whiteside Hillyard was adamant that R.F. Doherty when he wasn't too ill (it seemed that R.F. has never been in good health in his whole life) never lost once to his younger brother H.L., be it in official or private match. Hillyard even said that H.L. very seldom won a set against his elder. In fact R.F. owe 15 in each game to H.L.
So though H.L. Doherty had the best tennis record of all the pre-WWI players, R.F. Doherty shouldn't be ignored in any GOAT discussion.
This said I want to thank warmly SgtJohn for his post about Kenny.
Rosewall is (was) completely underrated because his peak years were a) before the open era, b1) between Gonzales (who had such a great sex-appeal) and Laver (who in some occasions could display such an attractive game) whereas Kenny was a small man with no very powerful strokes and b2) his head-to-head records against those giants of the game are negative.
Most of Gonzales' wins over Rosewall were in 1957 and 1960 when Pancho was better but had the American faced Kenny in long pro tours in the mid-60's and Pancho's record against Muscles would have been much less good.
Urban very often points out that Laver always led Kenny in H2H meetings from 1964 to 1972
but Urban never recalls that Kenny would have probably a superb positive H2H record before 1963 against Laver had Kenny the opportunity to play Rocket in those years.
I recognize that Rosewall's record in 1963 is skewed because he met (and beat) Laver so many times that year but at least it makes up for the missed meetings between both players, which would have happened in the years before if tennis had been open.
Until 1962 Rosewall-Laver record is 0-0 though Laver was at that time "million" classes below Rosewall and it penalizes so much Rosewall in any judgment of his true level.
For instance in 1957-1958 Kenny was already a contender for majors while Laver was crushed by grandpa Drobny at Wimby. If Ken had meet Laver in these years it is evident that Laver would have lost most (if not all) of their meetings.
One example of Rosewall's underestimation : in the late 80's, George Lott (an amateur player of the 20's and a pro player in the 30's, for those who don't know him, so a man who has watched all the greats from Johnston to Becker) made his own list in World Tennis. Lott ranked Neale Fraser higher than Rosewall (it wasn't a true list but an imaginary tournament, won by McEnroe, where Fraser got further than Kenny). When you know that Fraser a) was always barred by Rosewall (and Hoad and Cooper and Anderson) in the amateur circuit and b) was virtually retired when Rosewall was at his peak or close to it, how can someone put Fraser above Rosewall ?
Many forget that Laver met Kenny for the first time when the latter was 28 years old and that Laver dominated Kenny in direct confrontations (since 1964) when the Sydneysider was already 29 years old that is close to his 30's.
The same remark can be made about Gonzales. According to Jeffrey or Urban, Laver leads Gonzales something like 37-20 in H2H but don't forget that this record concerns a Gonzales who was between 36 and 42 years old. If tennis had been open, Laver could have beaten Pancho some times in 1962 or 1963 or if I'm generous in 1961 but not before that is when Pancho was at least 33 years old so Laver's record against Gonzales is also more flattering than it should.
In conclusion
Laver's head-to-head record against Kenny (and Pancho) and Pancho's record against Kenny are misleading. This is one of the reasons why Kenny was so underestimated. But it is clear that if one considers the era since 1920, Rosewall has to be ranked in the same class as Great Bill, Don ? (I have many problems to judge Budge because WWII damaged his career so much), Gorgo and Rocket.
So SgtJohn's title post is not provocative at all. It is debatable but once again not provocative. Thank you very much SgtJohn.
