illusions30
Banned
Who do you consider the greatest womens hard court player of all time. Serena and Graf seem the only two logical options at this point.
Greatest womens hard court player of all time
- Thread starter illusions30
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Graf1stClass
Professional
dude...what with all of these topics?
the women are all Graf, anyway. i'm serious about that, too.
the women are all Graf, anyway. i'm serious about that, too.
illusions30
Banned
I think Graf is in contention for the 2nd best clay courter ever with a few others. Evert is undisputably the best clay court player ever for women.
I think Graf, Navratilova, and Wills Moody are the 3 main candidates for best grass courter ever.
Hard courts is between Graf and Serena.
Carpet is clearly Navratilova.
So I wouldnt say they are all Graf. Graf is the overall GOAT but she is only in contention for greatest ever on 2 of the 4 surfaces, and has competition for that title on both of those too.
I am supposed to go on a long trip for a few weeks so I decided to start alot of the polls i was interested in at once, and see how they are going when I return.
Its Graf who has the superior WL percentage and greater consistency and the disparity is large enough to warrant putting her at the citadel. Serena needs to go while without a mistep to improve on her stats, or win another major or two. Those inexplicable losses haunt and I am afraid unless she picks her retirement date with care, she'll marr those numbers further.
illusions30
Banned
I agree with all that but I think if Serena reaches 13 hard court majors it still has to go to her. 12 and it is a toss up. I agree with 11 (to Graf's 10) it goes to Graf for all the reasons you stated.
Graf1stClass
Professional
forzamilan90
Legend
where's the men's hard court thread?
illusions30
Banned
You can make that one if you want.
M
monfed
Guest
Steffi Graf.
illusions30
Banned
3rd best hard court player of all time would also made a good debate. Evert vs Navratilova vs Seles. I would probably give the nod to Seles slightly over the other two, but could possibly see Evert as well. Wouldnt pick Navratilova since she won 4 at her strong slam and with only 3 Australian titles on slow grass, one can be almost certain she would have won 2 or fewer there had it been on slow bouncy hard courts.
3. Seles
4. navratilova
5. Evert.
Seles w/ l 84 % record is solid at the Open with 2 wins, 2 finals. 91% at the Aussie with 6 wins
Martina actually reached 8 finals at the Open and was rarely upset in the first week even at her advanced age and has a slightly better H to H over Evert. I will not make guesses about how she 'would have' done on slower courts. You do not offer demerits to her hard court record based on matches you don't think she would have won.
Evert showed more fragility on those Opens than in any of the other majors late in her career. From 84-89 she was in only one final, and lost twice before reaching the semis to Garrison and McNeil. She was barely in the match vs Sukova in '86. She would have won these matches on grass.The definition of 'inconsistent' is relative when it comes to Chris, but this is what it looks like. My gut says this was more about late summers than hard courts, but I can't prove a lot beyond her very peak years 74-82 at majors. She did have some nice results at LA and Toronto. I will not guess at how she would have done on slow hard courts. We have that one '88 final. In the end that slight edge in H to H tips Martina over her.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Don't you think that the fragility was more because of age/decline rather than the venue? She showed less consistent results at other tournaments besides the US Open during that time period as well.
Since 1984? There was no tournament that she consistently underperformed for so many years that wasn't played on carpet. Reached the finals of every other major in 85, 86 or 88. Yes these were dangerous s/vers but she would have beaten them at Wimbledon or most elsewhere. I saw these losses.
1. '85 she lost to Mandlikova but she played decent, but actually played better and lost to Hana at "86 semi even though she won a set. tentative
2. 86 loss to Helena. Her first loss to the Czeck "I wasn't really motivated. I know, If you can't get motivated at semifinals of the Open, somethings wrong" It was aweful.
3. 87 loss to Lori McNeil. Never lost to her before or since, but Lori played great tennis.
88 Withdrew vs Graf
89. loss to Garrison who she had killed earlier that year on hard courts. Let a 5-2 lead slip in the first set.
Frankly I can think of only 1 really good match she played at the Open since 1984 and that was vs Seles. It was more than fragile. I really don't think it was the surface per se but something was wrong at the Open the effort was there but the spirit was gone. Maybe she was exhausted by late summer. Maybe she could not shake the memory of that devastating loss to Martina in'84. Evert said it was the most devastated she has ever been after a loss. She didn't seem to want to get to the final all that much if it meant revisiting that experience again.
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illusions30
Banned
I think the 84 U.S Open final defeat for Evert was the toughest of her whole career. Still had the U.S Open been on hard courts rather than clay from 75-77 I am quite sure she would have won atleast 2 of those 3 given her dominance at the time (the only possible one I could see her losing was 75 to Goolagong given that Goolagong took her to 3 sets on claly as it was) and would still have more decoturf U.S Open titles than Martina and equal number to Graf then, and this despite that it probably wasnt even her potential best hard court.
Even if her late career record was dissapionting to some there her overall U.S Open record (if you ignore that 3 were on clay which given Evert's dominance of the total game at the time apart from grass and a bit of carpet is a nitpicky point) is superior to Martina's, Seles's, even Serena's, and everyones apart from maybe Graf in everyway. More titles, more finals, such a long stretch never losing before the semis.
Then in her 1 appearance at the Australian Open on slow hard courts, which would have likely suited her even better had they been around sooner, she did better than a younger Martina did in either of her only 2 appearances there.
Even if her late career record was dissapionting to some there her overall U.S Open record (if you ignore that 3 were on clay which given Evert's dominance of the total game at the time apart from grass and a bit of carpet is a nitpicky point) is superior to Martina's, Seles's, even Serena's, and everyones apart from maybe Graf in everyway. More titles, more finals, such a long stretch never losing before the semis.
Then in her 1 appearance at the Australian Open on slow hard courts, which would have likely suited her even better had they been around sooner, she did better than a younger Martina did in either of her only 2 appearances there.
I am not saying you are wrong, but all of the above is conjecture and speculation on your part. She only has those three hard court major wins which is less than Martina or Seles or Graf and she stopped getting into finals earlier than age can explain. She had 2 more finals in both RG and the Aussie and one more at wimbledon (might as well have had 2 at Wimbledon considering the quality of those semifinals vs Martina or even Hana in '86)and then there is that loosing H to H vs Martina. f you are looking for evidence you are going to have to look to other hard court tournaments to find it.
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