silentkman
Hall of Fame
Has anyone filed a greivance against a self rated player?
Greivance against a self rate player
- Thread starter silentkman
- Start date
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. They generously provide lower level players with invaluable match play at economic price against a stronger player.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
Its actually a captain that tells a player to rate lower to play on the team. this is the second time this has occured that i'm aware of.
ichaseballs
Professional
you need proof that they lied on the self rating. (example... they played college tennis but said 3.5)
if your only argument is that the player is way better than the self rating (without any evidence) you will probably lose
This is 99% right. If you have proof that the player actually misrepresented their history on a self-rating (either omitted/fudged past accomplishments like college or whatever or created a new account to avoid past ratings or something like that), you should be able to win a grievance against them. If you're only complaint is "they're too good", you will definitely lose.
There is a third path, though, that's a little more ambiguous that the USTA added in the last two years that a player "knowingly self-rated below their actual ability" or some wording along those lines. You still need to have proof of this, it can't just be that they are actually too good for the rating, but the proof doesn't have to be tied to the official self-rating guidelines. For example, Nathan Balls advertised himself as a 5.0 level player on TennisRound or some social site like that years before he self-rated at 4.0 (as well as being a high school state champ). Something like that could be used in this type of grievance (and in retrospect, he actually was a 5.0 level player sandbagging at 4.0). Or, if a player plays in a UTR league (or any other non-USTA league) and thrashes players a level above what they self-rated in USTA or has a UTR way out of line with the USTA rating crossover charts or are a 4-star recruit who was recruited for college teams but just never committed or played in college. I don't know of any successful grievance under this, and I suspect that what you have had better be iron clad for it to have any chance of success, but at least that path exists now for truly egregious cases.
LOBALOT
Legend
Yeah, knowing the USTA a grievance is a futile endeavor in addition to the waste of the processing fee they charge.
There was a guy in our area that signed up as "Johnathon Smith" from Town ABC and was a 4.5S and became a 4.5C. He then signed up with a second ID as John Smith in a nearby town DEF as a 4.0S and then a year later signed up as Dr. Johny Smith where his dental office was located in town GHI as a 3.5S for another team in our flight. All the same "John Boy" and he even admitted it in conversation. One of the teams filed. Nothing ever came of it.
There was a guy in our area that signed up as "Johnathon Smith" from Town ABC and was a 4.5S and became a 4.5C. He then signed up with a second ID as John Smith in a nearby town DEF as a 4.0S and then a year later signed up as Dr. Johny Smith where his dental office was located in town GHI as a 3.5S for another team in our flight. All the same "John Boy" and he even admitted it in conversation. One of the teams filed. Nothing ever came of it.
Purestriker
Legend
I don't know what section the OP is in, but a lot of states and sections charge $100 to file a grievance. I doubt the beat down they got is worth losing $100.
Purestriker
Legend
This exact thing happened in our area, they didn't do anything other than delete the other profile when ratings came out.
LOBALOT
Legend
Exactly what they did here as well. Just deleted the other profiles and Dr. Johny he has been!
ichaseballs
Professional
they keep your money, unless your grievance is upheld. so there is a financial motivation for the usta to deny, at the same time i think it is to deter people from filing 10 grievances a week.
LOBALOT
Legend
Exactly yup which is why we don't file them. I have had member of my teams want to all kick in money and file a few just for laughs.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
In my section, the fee is $50, Thanks for the input.
cks
Hall of Fame
Would these grievances be for sandbagging (untruthful self rates) or something else that happened during a match?
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
In mixed, the only way that severely out of level players get caught is by grievance. There are no automatic dynamic strikes in mixed. One of the mixed captains in my area had four of her players DQed by grievance this year and another captain had five of her players DQed by grievance over the last two years.
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
In my first year as a USTA captain about 15 years ago, I put together an All-Star 4.5 team that was supposed to consist of the best players from three clubs on the east side of our city. However, the director of tennis for one of the three clubs got all bent out of shape and accused me of "stealing" his players, so they chose to go on their own with a team that only had six 4.5s and a handful of 4.0s to fill in the rest of the lines. At the end of the season, we both made the playoffs and as the luck would have it, we drew them in the first round.
I hadn't paid much attention to them because they played their regular season in a different bracket. However, when I was scouting them before the playoffs, I uncovered that their #1 singles player, who was undefeated, was self-rated and had played D2 college tennis just a few years earlier, during which time he had been ranked as high as #14 in the US. Clearly, with that background and his age, there was no way he would be eligible to self-rate at 4.5, so I filed a grievance. Sure enough, he had not disclosed his background on the form and all of his results were disqualified. Additionally, all of their team matches had been won by 3-2 scores, so their team went from undefeated and in the playoffs to zero team wins and out of the playoffs.
It had not been my intention to ruin their entire season, just to make sure my guys didn't have to face an out-of-level ringer with their singles guy. In the end, if their director of tennis hated me before, I was pretty much on his death list after that. I was actually banned from entering their club (which I didn't care about), but a friend of mine who was a member there was also banned out of spite. I also got some grief from other 4.5 captains who said I was "ruthless." My team lost in the semis of the playoffs, so it ultimately didn't help us much either, so I'm not sure it was worth the black mark it put on me as a captain for awhile. However, I was satisfied with myself because I stuck to my principles and did what I felt was best for my team at the time.
Anyway, my point is that yes, I have filed a grievance on a self-rated player. If the violation is clear and it will help your team, it's probably the right thing to do to police your league. On the other hand, expect to be unpopular if you get that player disqualified.
I hadn't paid much attention to them because they played their regular season in a different bracket. However, when I was scouting them before the playoffs, I uncovered that their #1 singles player, who was undefeated, was self-rated and had played D2 college tennis just a few years earlier, during which time he had been ranked as high as #14 in the US. Clearly, with that background and his age, there was no way he would be eligible to self-rate at 4.5, so I filed a grievance. Sure enough, he had not disclosed his background on the form and all of his results were disqualified. Additionally, all of their team matches had been won by 3-2 scores, so their team went from undefeated and in the playoffs to zero team wins and out of the playoffs.
It had not been my intention to ruin their entire season, just to make sure my guys didn't have to face an out-of-level ringer with their singles guy. In the end, if their director of tennis hated me before, I was pretty much on his death list after that. I was actually banned from entering their club (which I didn't care about), but a friend of mine who was a member there was also banned out of spite. I also got some grief from other 4.5 captains who said I was "ruthless." My team lost in the semis of the playoffs, so it ultimately didn't help us much either, so I'm not sure it was worth the black mark it put on me as a captain for awhile. However, I was satisfied with myself because I stuck to my principles and did what I felt was best for my team at the time.
Anyway, my point is that yes, I have filed a grievance on a self-rated player. If the violation is clear and it will help your team, it's probably the right thing to do to police your league. On the other hand, expect to be unpopular if you get that player disqualified.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
The self rate sheets are pretty much a joke beyond the questions about playing in college or high school. The thing is most people (myself included) think they are better then they are until they start playing usta. So as a captain you have to often suggest to people that if they self rate too high no one will want them on their team. And for whatever reason it seems some guys never get bumped down. If you want to captain a competitive team you can’t use players that happen to fall in the bottom half of the level. If you want to just captain a team for the fun of it, then you pick players that a fun to hang out with.
Yeah, there's one guy who hits the heck out of a ball but mentally is weak in some ways. In practice he's actually good to rally with, but once a match starts, it's uncanny how he overhits. I have to give him credit though that he keeps playing even after losing pretty much every match in 2023 and 2024. I have no idea how he wasn't bumped down last year; most of the losses aren't even close. He's a good guy so ppl don't mind playing with him in doubles. But I know my captain's not going to invite him back next year b/c eventually ppl want to win. But I don't think he'll do well in 3.0s even if bumped down... I think he should be a tennis clinic junkie and social player.
There's also one lady who's somehow a 4.0. The thing is she plays w/ her hubby and he's a weak 3.0 so by losing closely she keeps her rating (she's tried to appeal down and was denied). The one team they beat was a mixed team w/ the guy from the first paragraph
She definitely overestimated herself a few years ago... and to her credit, realizes it.
NattyGut
Professional
Ugh. USTA. The death of tennis. The birth of pickleball. USTA is to horses what newspaper ads were claiming the automobile needs fuel but a horse just needs grass; and the horse only needs shoes not tires. Out of touch and USTA is failing those that want to compete, where, unfortunately, people they KNOW BY NAME rig the system by bringing new players in by underrating themselves. These weirdos in my area are spending thousands to get a 3.5 team to advance. It’s truly pathetic and the USTA is in the passenger seat ruining the experience for new players by condoning this nonsense and making people think long and hard about being “that person” who filed a grievance about ultra rich weirdo at X Country Club Trying to win 3.5 tennis … almost seems like USTA has a consumer protection lawsuit in the making.
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NattyGut
Professional
USTA Rules read like they were composed by a drunk sophomore in high school. I assume the brain trust functions similarly — only a complete inept brain trust would rely on “rats” to tell them the player playing as self rated 3.5 that played and won all year at 4.0 needs to be reviewed after dropping to a 3:5 team with 2 matches left to beat 3.5 6-0, 6-0. Certain ethnicities seem to really be culprits here in my area; culturally seems like “steal it why invent it” floats as acceptable with them.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Do they allow anonymous grievances?
free lesson!
let me fast forward for you... and save you time filing anything..
hypothetically if the obvious sandbagger is DQ'd,
if you make it to sectionals, you will run into even more sandbaggers
and if you make it to nationals, you will run into the best sandbaggers in the country
but the ones at nationals were able to manage their ego & the scores well enough throughout the reg season and sections, to make it all the way through...
not proud of it, but when i was a 4.0, i medical appealed (post acl surgery) down to 3.5, and would win my matches with the score: 7-6, 1-6, 1-0 ## note the total number of games was 9-12 (which algorithmically would lower my rating)... i got bumped up again cuz i was also playing 4.0 league (and winning)... shortly after (not sure if becuase of me), they reworded medical appeals to include "permanent injury" in the description.
NattyGut
Professional
No and there is a $50 fee to file the grievance.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I meant… there has to be a way to report someone without getting put on the most wanted list and getting you and all your friends and your friends’ kids banned from the club?
NattyGut
Professional
If only … it’s really FUBAR … most aren’t smart enough to throw their scores … there shouldn’t be a need for a grievance … but the USTA insists the grievance be filed by the Captain of a team
schmke
Legend
So, technically, a coordinator can file a grievance too, and I've heard of some that will act if they become aware of something. But this may be rare and some may prefer to put the onus on captains to do their work for them. Sad if true.
They may also rationalize that the 3-strike DQ process is there to catch players and just say to let that work. We know of course it has weaknesses and doesn't work reliably or soon enough in many cases.
They may also rationalize that the 3-strike DQ process is there to catch players and just say to let that work. We know of course it has weaknesses and doesn't work reliably or soon enough in many cases.
NattyGut
Professional
These players that self rate too low are recruited to sign up and self rate too low to give a team an advantage in league play.
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schmke
Legend
FWIW, there is a lot of grievance language in the regulations, but pertinent to who can file:
3.03E(2) Any league captain, coordinator or member of a Championship Committee may file an NTRP Grievance.
NattyGut
Professional
What’s weird is our league coordinator knows the reputation of a certain team to engage in this behavior that is run by a very very rich person … and yet does nothing … it’s willful blindness. I think the USTA is ok with the cheating. It’s too bad for those USTA members that just want to play against opponents at their level. In my experience over half of players that join the USTA remove themselves after the first year of experiencing this nonsense
USTA doesn't care about Self-rated sandbager
Just back from our Sectional. We found a self-rated 3.5 player who played not only 4.0 but also 4.5 usta league/tournaments this season. And his 3.5 winning record is 94%. 4.0 & 4.5 winning record is 64%. All these are records are from tennislink. My captain filed a grievance against him...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Lord Of The Strings
Rookie
Yes, and had it successfully upheld. Player was DQ'd. DM me for details if you want them.
NumbersGuy
Rookie
In the past it has sometimes worked for me to send a simple email to our Section NTRP Coordinator, citing clear evidence of a fraudulent self rate, and he takes care of it. May not work every time or everywhere, but it’s free and easy. You absolutely must provide the evidence, e.g. a link to his college team’s web page, don’t try to make him/her do the research.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
Thanks, I may be in touch.
LOBALOT
Legend
It would be a miracle if our league coordinator even answered the phone or e-mail. Responding with anything but a snort or some rude and antagonistic response is slightly less likely but not out of the realm of possibility. Any other response would not happen and I could go to the bank on it.
NumbersGuy
Rookie
Not league coordinator. I have found their integrity and diligence to be all over the map. Go to the Section NTRP Coordinator. Should be listed on your Section's website.
am1899
Legend
FWIW, a couple years ago a local player self-rated at 4.0 and proceeded to start mowing people down in league play. My recollection was that this player had attended a division 1 college and played tennis there. Upon further review, the player was indeed on the collegiate roster, but only played a couple exhibition matches. Player in question answered, “no” to the self-rate question regarding having played collegiate tennis. Player was grieved on that basis.
Unbeknownst to the party who filed the grievance, the section had recently (conveniently?) enacted a rule which allows players like the one in question to essentially “not count” their collegiate play as actual collegiate play - hence the answer on the self-rate questionnaire. The grievance was denied.
You can probably guess that myself and the person who filed the grievance were incredulous. Just because you didn’t play in the lineup doesn’t mean you, “didn’t play college tennis.” Joke.
Unbeknownst to the party who filed the grievance, the section had recently (conveniently?) enacted a rule which allows players like the one in question to essentially “not count” their collegiate play as actual collegiate play - hence the answer on the self-rate questionnaire. The grievance was denied.
You can probably guess that myself and the person who filed the grievance were incredulous. Just because you didn’t play in the lineup doesn’t mean you, “didn’t play college tennis.” Joke.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Only one team wins nationals in each division every year. Almost certainly the champions were too good for their level. The other teams that didn’t win weren’t good enough. So it would seem odd that USTA would even pretend they are upset by players playing “out of level.” That is how the whole “level based play” national championships is designed.
