Gripes and Groans about ugly dinker - makes me wanna quit!

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Yao_guai_nz, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. eelhc

    eelhc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,159
    So there are people who drill winners during warm ups in a social match? Don't socialize with them... problem solved. Life is too short to spend time with a$$holes.
     
    GameSetBeer likes this.
    #51
  2. Max G.

    Max G. Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    5,139
    Yeah, for a few bucks you can get a plastic holder thing to put a phone in to hang it on a tennis fence. For the purposes of looking at a tennis game for self improvement, that's as good as a camera, you're not looking for artistic shots here.

    Memory of the phone for long recordings can be an issue.
     
    #52
  3. texasleaguer

    texasleaguer Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    I never do warm ups with an opponent. They want to warm up they can find somebody else. My feeling is I came to play, so lets get to it. If my opponent has to warm up, I let him take all the time he needs. Besides, I'm usually late so the guy has been hitting with someone anyway.
     
    #53
  4. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,094
    Location:
    Iowa
    Memory cards are cheap these days.
     
    Max G. likes this.
    #54
  5. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    I wouldn't either. But what % of his lobs are in this category? And what do you do with the ones that aren't as good?
     
    #55
  6. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    Maybe this pusher does it because those are the only winners he's going to hit that day?
     
    GameSetBeer likes this.
    #56
  7. Traffic

    Traffic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,959
    3out of4 lobs land on the baseline. That's with me returning deep, short, wide. On the 4th short lob, I pummel the net guy.

    Well, took me a set to dial in my own shots from going long or landing as a sitter for the net guy.
     
    #57
  8. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    Count me as skeptical: very few opponents I've played up to 5.0 have that kind of accuracy.
     
    #58
  9. Traffic

    Traffic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,959
    And that's the problem with 5.0. They lack the discipline of a 65y/o 3.0 that has been practicing that shot since the Reagan administration.
     
    #59
  10. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    The first or the second?
     
    #60
  11. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    Oh yes, it was very pathetic. He also yelled "Come on!" at me when he was up in the set. Before he won the match he howled almost like a dying wolf or something. Very odd.

    I only did it because he's a good pusher and I figured some things out that I need to work on. I agree, I don't plan on playing him any time again. He beat me pretty bad, so I'd only be interested in seeing how I stacked up in a month or two.


    Unfortunately in my area the pushers are the ones who are the biggest a$$holes. I'm sure this isn't the case everywhere. However, if I want to play a pusher, I have to put up with guys who get so into winning the match that it's pathetic.

    His style was like the guy with the red shorts and grey shirt at the 5 minute mark, but even better at that sort of style and more consistent:
     
    nytennisaddict likes this.
    #61
  12. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    I'm also curious if people have encountered this: I've played my fair share of pushers and sometimes the first couple matches or so I play against them I get bageled a few times or pick up only a few games. They usually act like I wasted their time or it was an easy game. Like I was beneath them.

    Then I work on the shots that they gave me a hard time with and I come back and crush them. The first time I beat them they always say it's always due to my luck etc., but then I beat them a few more times badly and then I never hear from them again or they get too "busy." Usually when I've solved the problems they were giving me, bad calls start to crop up and they start foot faulting a lot to gain any edge they can on the serve etc.

    It's happened to me so often that I'm guessing it's fairly universal.
     
    #62
  13. eelhc

    eelhc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,159
    no... pushers are no more or less unsportsmanlike than any other type of player. sounds to me like you got into a bad mix of guys. You need find a different tennis scene.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
     
    GameSetBeer and Topspin Shot like this.
    #63
  14. Tiafoe

    Tiafoe New User

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2017
    Messages:
    77
    That's awful. Someone who only slices forehands should be banned from playing any competitive tennis.
     
    #64
  15. Moonarse

    Moonarse Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Messages:
    420
    I've been there. Playing with someone that you rather be doing anything else but beeing there playing tennis. At the end of the day I just realized a liked a good training exchange more than playing this boring tournament games. I just wasn't really wanting bad to win, and that's why I couldn't find the focus you need to beat this tipes of guys.

    I've been curing myself of this disease of losing interest on playing slow matches by playing ultra pushers simply serving harder and rushing to the net at anytime possible.

    My net game is pretty consistent so I just turn his game into a Nightmare for him. chip n charge serve n volley spin and rush. suddenly the pushing to the other side without pace is not working anymore and i'm volleying every single ball mid court and net. they have to go for the winner shot. there you go, out of their comfort zone and a ticket to fun and victory.


    Imagine the reaction of the guy that always beated me by just pushing one more loopy ball to my left when i rushed 80% of the point to the net and made him go for the winner every single ball. I crushed his mental game the way he normally does to mine with his consistent paceless balls. But then again, you need a sharp net game and some legs.
     
    GameSetBeer likes this.
    #65
  16. eelhc

    eelhc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,159
    Starting with Monica Niculescu?
     
    #66
  17. Tiafoe

    Tiafoe New User

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2017
    Messages:
    77
    Ok, since I don't care about women's tennis I'll amend it to any guy who only slices forehands should be banned.
     
    #67
  18. KohlschreiberFan

    KohlschreiberFan New User

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2016
    Messages:
    90
    I know that feeling - just had pretty much the same scenario against this pusher in my match on monday. Won 1st set, lost match in 3 sets.
     
    Yao_guai_nz likes this.
    #68
  19. MisterP

    MisterP Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,159
    Agreed. Ban this noob, pronto.

     
    beernutz likes this.
    #69
  20. Tiafoe

    Tiafoe New User

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2017
    Messages:
    77
    Last I checked, Dolgo doesn't only hit slices from the forehand side. It's not hard to find clips of him regularly ripping forehands with topspin.
     
    #70
  21. eelhc

    eelhc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,159
    If my opponent can't handle my slices or can't hurt me off my slices, he'll get nothing but a steady diet of slices off both wings.

    The guy in the video who only slices got smacked around pretty good.. Guessing he doesn't have anything else.
     
    #71
  22. Traffic

    Traffic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,959
    I played against an ex-ping pong champ. So much slice. I couldn't handle it. But I'm sure if I played him again; especially in singles, I'd get used to it. He even admitted that his style of play is good for one match. Then ppl adjust and he can be a sitting duck.

    The video reminds me of a match my son played against an opponent. My son's OH weren't going in so he was struggling big time. Eventually, he melted under the frustration and couldn't volley, OH or hit any shot with pace and spin. Pretty much melted to a pile of goo.

    Since then, he's been working with his coach to handle slices and slice lobs.

    I've been incorporating FH slices and slice lobs into my game and they've been very effective defensive shots. There's just enough unfamiliar movement that timing can be just a hair off to make an easy put away dump into the net or go long.
     
    GameSetBeer likes this.
    #72
  23. Steve Williams

    Steve Williams New User

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Location:
    Derby, UK
    Traffic #25 talks a lot of sense.

    I can definitely relate though.

    There's a guy I play with who is consistent and puts very little pace on the ball. He hits every ball high and down the middle. The only winners he ever hits are mishits off the frame or a deadspot that just trickle over the net and die on my side. That's the way I remember it anyway ;)

    "Great disguise," I say. He says something like: "Well, I saw you staying back" (as if he meant to hit that shot). That's pretty annoying but I try to laugh it off. Every match has its own challenges.

    You say it was an interclub match so I don't suppose you're necessarily going to meet him again soon. I would pick out someone at your own club with a similar game to that guy and suggest you play together regularly. Don't bother too much if you lose. Just work on some things and see if your results get better. Maybe work on volleys and generally taking balls out of the air and a bit earlier – high risk in some ways but it could be a good motivation to practice those kinds of things.

    With my guy, its death in the afternoon if I start retreating behind the baseline.

    On the subject of the slow low serve you mention, there are plenty of people at my club who serve like that (with a bit of slice) and they like to play on carpet courts. Stand in a bit -- don't just stand on the baseline to receive serve out of habit -- and, if you play with a semi-western grip, consider getting a bit more eastern to return those low serves.

    Please ignore anything I say if it doesn't apply. I'm not assuming anything about your game, just thinking aloud.

    As the song goes: "pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again".
     
    Moonarse and Yao_guai_nz like this.
    #73
  24. MathGeek

    MathGeek Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,633
    As a proud dinker, pusher, and junk baller, you've gotten pretty good advice - the kind of advice that usually beats me.

    With the strengths and weaknesses of my game, most of my matches eventually devolve into fitness competitions - the fitter player (or team in doubles) wins, regardless of who has the better strokes.

    The legs feed the wolf.
     
    #74
  25. Steve Williams

    Steve Williams New User

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Location:
    Derby, UK
    I also forgot to say that a crucial shot against such players is the overhead. I may know that I should approach the net more to take their time away but but if my overhead is not solid, I worry about dealing with the inevitable lob.

    That keeps me in a state of frustration and indecision.

    Now, whenever I can find a practice partner, we spend a good while practicing overheads. In both singles and doubles I feel it has payed off. Hitting a good overhead is a feel-good confidence booster. Missing one drains confidence away.

    Matches can slip away very easily.
     
    #75
  26. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    #76
  27. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    I seek out matches against 3.0 pushers.
    They are gold, as @nytennisaddict has said.

    If you can't beat a pusher, you don't know how to play tennis.
    In fact, you suck at tennis. Period.
    Respect the pusher, and learn from him.
    Can you hit the ball in? Can ya?
    No? Then pick a new sport!!
     
    Gazelle likes this.
    #77
  28. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    Some positive ways to send the message:

    If you can't beat a pusher, you don't know how to play tennis against that particular style.
    In fact, you could use a lot of improvement.
    Respect the pusher, and learn from him.
    Can you hit the ball in? Can ya?
    No? Then get thee to the practice court!/QUOTE]
     
    Johnr, Traffic and nytennisaddict like this.
    #78
  29. blip

    blip Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    349
    Many so called 'pushers' out there. It's all about playing your game and not theirs.

    I've said it in many threads, and I will tell myself everytime this:
    Hold my serve and go bonkers hitting whatever I want on his serve.

    If you can fairly easily hold your serve with a good 1-2 or 1-2-3 punch, you can go for pretty good winners on his serve. Guess what happens then? You don't expend as much energy.

    Also, come in after hitting him wide. Even great pushers cant get to everything and play their preferred lob. Crush your chosen short ball and put away the next. Hit him left, right and behind him.

    If you can't find your play, then unfortunately your going to have to out push him. It can't be done, if you aren't ready.
     
    GameSetBeer likes this.
    #79
  30. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    Problem with holding serve for a big hitter is double faulting
     
    #80
  31. AlxThm

    AlxThm New User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    México
    You could try to do a little fitness, that way you could've hold the third set and work more in the footwork required to make your own pace out of that (or any) dinker/pusher I know because i've lost the same way many many times just like you, and the only way i found to win to those type of "players" was pure footwork to generate my own power and dictate the game
     
    #81
  32. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    6,937
    I played in a 4.0 singles internet league. It is more like 3.5 or 4.0- in USTA. There was an old guy who had a weak serve and hit lobs while in baseline rallies. I mean he would literally hit the ball 30 or 40 feet in the air in a baseline rally and do this frequently and even several balls in a row. He beat 2 or 3 guys who were much better than him simply because they lost their minds and couldn't handle it.

    I try to keep the view that a poor shot from your opponent is not an excuse for you to miss. If you get a poor shot from your opponent, it is up to you to handle it.

    If you missed a lot of short slow balls, then work on topspin and slice approach shots and backing it up with good net play. A 2nd alternative is work on drop shots or a short low slice as a reply. You opponents weak play is not an excuse for you to miss. If you miss, it is because you have a weakness that needs to be addressed.
     
    Yao_guai_nz likes this.
    #82
  33. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    This sentence is an oxymoron.
    You don't beat guys who are better than you.
    You are better than the guys you beat.
    You beat guys who are worse than you.
    No amount of self-delusion will change math.
     
    #83
  34. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    It wasn't self-delusion because @TennisCJC wasn't talking about himself losing to this pusher. He didn't even say the guys he beat complained about being better.

    Maybe it would have been more accurate to say "he beat guys that were better on paper but whose game did not match up very well against him". We knew what he was getting at, though. You are interpreting it literally.

    People don't perform identically over time; some people have big swings in result; others have smaller swings. If A has an average performance of 90 and B has an average of 80 but somehow B is in the zone and beats A, you might argue B is better because he won but you might also argue A will win the majority of matches.
     
    AlxThm and Traffic like this.
    #84
  35. Dartagnan64

    Dartagnan64 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,932
    What is "better"? I doubt a single match can determine that very subjective determination. I imagine 100's of matches in all sorts of conditions would provide the only accurate metric of "better", especially for people reasonably close in skill. I can lose and win matches against the same competition depending on the day.

    Over 162 games the Cleveland Indians were a better team than the New York Yankees. In a 5 game series, New York won 3-2. Doesn't mean the better team won. It means the team that played better over a short series won.

    So you should amend your assertion. "You beat guys that play worse than you do on the day you play them". Whether or not they are a generally better player means little over a single match showdown.
     
    Startzel and OnTheLine like this.
    #85
  36. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    938
    You play league/tournaments long enough you know the "better" team doesn't always win, and better is relative to that day, those conditions, etc.

    You start to see the same player or team opposite you often enough.

    It could be that in your first meeting you lost 2 & 2 ... then a month or two later lost 4 & 5 ... then met again after another month and won 0 & 1.

    They may have been decidedly the better player in the first match. Possibly the score claims even in the second, the third, well could have been a bad day for one and a glorious day for the other, or someone improved a lot. Which is the better player (or team)? Sometimes it is easy to say, sometimes it is not.
     
    Yao_guai_nz and TimeToPlaySets like this.
    #86
  37. Moveforwardalways

    Moveforwardalways Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,669
    Pusher = anyone better than me

    Nadal, Federer, and the 5.0 guy I lost badly to last week? All a bunch of punk pushers.
     
    #87
  38. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    Every 3.5 has played a guy with ugly strokes, but was a WALL.
    Has no back hand? Just runs around it every time. Gets to every ball.

    It's amazing how people don't believe the score in tennis.
    The ugly stroke guy can win 6-2 and be convinced he is a bad player

    I have massive respect for the dink junkers. They are good players, period.
    The dink junker often misses nothing, and the best of them can return heavy pace.
    Then you know you're in trouble.

    I am glad not to be one of those delusional people who think they are better than a junker, even if they lose to the junker. They're not.

    The score proves junker is a vastly superior player, even if his strokes look like 2.5
     
    #88
  39. Startzel

    Startzel Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,299
    I played a former ping pong player the other night. He didn't hit a single forehand or backhand the entire night. It was all slice. It wasn't even fun to play against because rallies were impossible. I just had to rip every ball I could get waist high as hard as I could for a winner. Otherwise I was guaranteed to lose the point.

    I lost 6-1 in the first set but 6-4 in the second. I'm sure I could beat him if we played another match or two but it was just awful tennis and not even worth my time.
     
    #89
  40. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    Wow, not worth your time?
    You can't even hit a slice, yet you call yourself a tennis player?
    You should be paying him to play you until you learn how to beat him.
     
    #90
  41. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    You mean he didn't drive any FHs or BHs. All of his slices were presumably FHs or BHs.

    Why were rallies impossible? The only way that would be true is if he hit winners with all of his slices. Since you didn't say that, presumably you had a play on the ball.

    Why were you guaranteed to lose the point?

    I'm not so sure, given the trouble that this style presents to you. I am pretty sure that you could work on how to deal with it, though.

    This highlights a weakness in your game. If you want to address that weakness, you know how to do it. What are you going to do if you run into this style at league or tournaments? Seems to me you'd be better off developing a counter-strategy.
     
    Johnr likes this.
    #91
  42. Nashvegas

    Nashvegas Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2016
    Messages:
    472
    I played a guy like this and coming to net completely neutralized him. Next time we played I didn't play my normal game and stayed back a lot and he beat me. Third time I took the net at each opportunity and won big.

    This is my suggestion for every problem, but did you go the net very much in the match? It can definitely throw players with certain styles off their game. Not as easy to pass with a slice.
     
    #92
  43. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,344
    The 4.0 junker can easily pass and lob.
     
    Johnr likes this.
    #93
  44. Startzel

    Startzel Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,299
    Coming to the net didn’t work against him unfortunately. I tried it for a bit but he was too good at lobbing it deep. The only way to beat him was to really overpower him.

    The guy he played before me pretty much always comes to the net and he lost 1,1.
     
    #94
  45. Startzel

    Startzel Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,299
    The ball was too low to do anything with it so you would get into a “rally” where he is in his comfort zone and you’re trying to do something unnatural. That’s not a position you want to be in.

    I went from winning 1 to 4 games so I believe I’m getting better against his style of play than he was getting better against me. I think it’s likely I would improve the more I played his style than vice versa. He was a one trick pony.
     
    #95
  46. Nashvegas

    Nashvegas Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2016
    Messages:
    472
    So can the 7.0 yet Mischa somehow makes a living.
     
    #96
  47. Traffic

    Traffic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,959
    @Startzel , I just played a tennis buddy of mine over the weekend. He said he changed his tactics about 2 months ago and has been winning a bunch. He DRIVES the ball FH and BH with a slice. They go deep and bounce low and seemingly aimed to the open court. Many points were serve and volley. He beat me 6-0.

    Now, one wrinkle is that I was testing out a new string combo and it had a bit less power and spin than I am used to so I wasn't executing some of my shots well at all regardless of the style of play. Still, not getting a single game off of him spoke volumes. He had me on the ropes nearly every point. Not only were his shots hard to mount a counter against, but he wasn't making many errors. He owned me. Period.

    For the 2nd set, I switched back to my familiar strings and I was able to execute my shots better. I used a buggy whip FH for some of his shorter balls and they were dipping in at the alley/baseline whereas they were all about 6" long previously. I was also able to return his slice with slices of my own and slice lobs. Plus, if he left me a sitter, I was able to put it away with a shallow TS FH to the baseline/alley. I also won a few volley duels. And here is the kicker, he swung for some "normal" topspin shots that went long (re: TTPS' 3.5 spazz shots) and gave me some free points. I won the 2nd set 6-3.

    Afterwards, I asked him why he didn't stick to his style of play of the 1st set. He said that when he's playing matches and tournaments, his opponents don't like to play against that style of play. And I defended him that he was in total control of the game in the 1st set. But by switching to a more "normal" style of play, his UE let me stay in the game or let me get ahead. I know he wants to hit hard topspin balls, but his slice shots have pace and are difficult to return. They are placed with accuracy at difficult angles and kept me running around since I could only return weak shots against it.
     
    #97
  48. Startzel

    Startzel Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,299
    Yeah this was the first real attacking pusher I’ve encountered. There is no doubt his method is very successful for him as evidenced by the fact I won more games off him than he had lost in his previous three matches combined.

    But it would be hard to argue it was much of a “Tennis” match.
     
    #98
  49. Traffic

    Traffic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,959
    I think once you beat that opponent soundly, then you can say it's not much of a "Tennis" match in the sense that it's not much competition for you. But if you win 7-5 or even 6-4, then I'd say it was a good tennis match. It's just not your preferred style.

    I've mentioned this before that in the JR competitive world, there are many (top) players that command slices and slice lobs and are fast, great at reading their opponents and they are like a wall. The better ones also have a hard baseline rally game as well. But they enjoy playing the change of pace games if they feel their opponents can't handle it. Use the least amount of energy to beat your opponents. They will not show you their "fast pace" game until you push them.
     
    #99
  50. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    6,266
    @Startzel didn't say he was a junker but a slicer. Slicers don't "easily pass" because many times slices don't go fast enough to be effective passers.

    However, they can usually lob which means your approach has to be good enough to make it difficult to lob. Ironically, one of the best approaches in this case is...the slice.
     

Share This Page