Gut Kevlar Hybrid in OS

mark b.

Rookie
I've searched several older posts here but have been unable to get a good answer.
I play with an 105" Dunlop 300G with a tight 18x20 pattern. My favorite hybrid setup right now is Klip Legend 17 (double coated) with a smooth poly in the crosses. I string the gut mains at 66lbs and string the poly crosses at 56lbs.
The frame plays blissful for three weeks before the poly starts to die....then every day after that is an adventure in keeping the ball in play not to mention my elbow and shoulder tendons.
I do not play with a lot of topspin. I do not play with a semi western. Thus, I believe the poly is simply adding a stiff control partner to my gut. I believe the poly also raises my launch angle but I cannot verify that.
OK, here's my question. Would I get a more consistent, longer-lasting string setup if I traded out the poly for an aramid or kevlar string?
I know the likely answer is to simply force myself into restringing every three weeks or more.
I like a racquet to behave tomorrow like it did yesterday and that is my one HUGE knock against poly. It seems like every day is a different string setup (after two or three matches).
Please advise.
 
Prestretch the poly (pull manually on a 20-ft segment for 4 minutes or so until it permanently elongates by 6 to 8”). Do the same with the gut. Then string it up but dropping reference tension of the poly by 10 lbs.

Prestretching fixes any issues with tension loss, and your problem is tension loss. May take a couple of tries to redial in desired tension.
 

mark b.

Rookie
Great suggestion travlerjm. I have never pre-stretched poly before. You may have found my answer to longer lasting BLISS.
So, I would end up with a hybrid of 66lbs/46lbs? Sounds scary but what the heck.
Like the suggestion. Thanks
 
Great suggestion travlerjm. I have never pre-stretched poly before. You may have found my answer to longer lasting BLISS.
So, I would end up with a hybrid of 66lbs/46lbs? Sounds scary but what the heck.
Like the suggestion. Thanks
the poly quickly drops to much lower than 46 lbs anyway if you string at 56 but don’t prestretch. Prestretching it, if done thoroughly, will stabilize it at tension closer to reference tension.
 

CopolyX

Hall of Fame
pr-stretching may help with tension loss, but not the copolys stringbed life. actually it will shorten it
 

CopolyX

Hall of Fame
if you want a longer stringbed life with the best tension maintenance,
Full bed of a quality natural gut.
your arm will thank you.
my wife has the same stick hotmelt OS, works great in it.
 
pr-stretching may help with tension loss, but not the copolys stringbed life. actually it will shorten it
pr-stretching may help with tension loss, but not the copolys stringbed life. actually it will shorten it
I have been prestretching every time I string for last 5 years, and i find the opposite to be true. Stringbed life is lengthened. I used to have to restring often before I discovered the prestretching trick, but now I only need to string twice per year when mains finally break. And stringbed plays almost the same until breakage.
 

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
A really consistent stringbed would be the Kevlar in the mains and the klip in the cross.

That would play the same for 50 hours at least.


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graycrait

Hall of Fame
I would use Ashaway Zyex as a cross, manually prestretched to about 12' permanent elongation. Bed will play decent till something breaks. Might be too much power though. I'ved use a lot of Nat Gut and Ashaway Kevlar but never together. I might need to try that just because.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
A really consistent stringbed would be the Kevlar in the mains and the klip in the cross.

That would play the same for 50 hours at least.


Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
I used to play kev/gut. I always shredded the crosses. How would ot last 50 hours? Sure I can see tension wise after the initial hour but not breaking would be my concern.
 

Username_

Hall of Fame
kevlar is soft.

@Shroud have you used kevlar below 50lbs? i'm aware you do (or did) kevlar at 86lbs. just wondered if you felt any difference in comfort

EDIT: my elbow hurts... strung my kevlar at 52lbs mains and poly crosses at 48lbs

though i think its due to overuse
 
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2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
I used to play kev/gut. I always shredded the crosses. How would ot last 50 hours? Sure I can see tension wise after the initial hour but not breaking would be my concern.
I believe in a dense pattern and a lower spin game it would be durable.

Worth a try if that's the string you like imho.



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Muppet

Legend
I have been prestretching every time I string for last 5 years, and i find the opposite to be true. Stringbed life is lengthened. I used to have to restring often before I discovered the prestretching trick, but now I only need to string twice per year when mains finally break. And stringbed plays almost the same until breakage.
Maybe polys become less elastic from pre-stretching up to a point. Then when you overcome their resistance to permanent elongation, perhaps pre-stretching beyond that point makes them more elastic again, but with resistance to tension loss.
 
Maybe polys become less elastic from pre-stretching up to a point. Then when you overcome their resistance to permanent elongation, perhaps pre-stretching beyond that point makes them more elastic again, but with resistance to tension loss.
No. all strings, including poly, becoming more elastic with prestretching. Poly starts out with poor elasticity (I.e., low energy return), but prestretching can increase elasticity significantly.
 

alidisperanza

Hall of Fame
Depending on the kevlar you'll saw through your gut a bit faster. It'll be more "consistent" but will substantially change the feel of your stick. Give it a shot but I don't think you'll find the same benefits as you did with poly. Also, if you're having tennis elbow issues with dead poly, kevlar will be a jarring experience.

What's the frequency of play and where/how you keep your frames? Are you playing for three weeks, once a week? Three times a week? It doesn't sound like you have a tension loss problem, it sounds like your poly is going muerto.

Pacific Grove also sounds like a wonderfully sunny and happy place, are your frames going from hot to cold to hot to cold?
 

alidisperanza

Hall of Fame
No. all strings, including poly, becoming more elastic with prestretching. Poly starts out with poor elasticity (I.e., low energy return), but prestretching can increase elasticity significantly.
Not quite. Elasticity is the ability to resist distortion and return to return to original. Apply a force to anything and elasticity automatically goes down. Consistency of the string bed may improve with pre-stretching but it does not extend the life of the strings, only makes the stringbed more predictable.
 
Not quite. Elasticity is the ability to resist distortion and return to return to original. Apply a force to anything and elasticity automatically goes down.
Your first sentence is sort of correct.
The second? Nonsense.
Prestretching increases elasticity. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
 

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
Your first sentence is sort of correct.
The second? Nonsense.
Prestretching increases elasticity. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
OK how could this possibly be? Just stringing a frame tighter is a form of prestretching, and everybody knows higher tension produces less power.

US RSA and other stringing authorities are pretty clear that prestretching improves tension maintenance but at the cost of power.
 

mark b.

Rookie
Took some Forum advice. Strung my 18x20 stringbed with Klip Gut at 67lbs (it's an oversize racquet) and Kevlar at 49lbs. In my hand it felt too springy as I hit the bottom of my palm against the stringbed.
Hit with it for one hour and it played superbly. Now, if this setup lasts without shredding the gut and plays well for over three weeks, I just may have found my answer to hating poly that bags out so fast.
NOTE: For me, playing with a consistent feeling stringbed week after week is hugely important to playing well because I don't get to play every single day. Don't get me wrong, I love the feel of a freshly strung gut/poly hybrid but after a three week romance the stringbed becomes awful. Pre-stretching could extend that but frankly I never know when the string is going to play like crap. I'm from an era where a full bed of natural gut could last 3 months and feel the same tomorrow as it did yesterday. Once I mixed natural gut with poly, I was sold. If I went back to ALL Natural Gut, I think I'd want it strung at 70lbs to control the power. For now anyways, kevlar is my new romance.
 

alidisperanza

Hall of Fame
Took some Forum advice. Strung my 18x20 stringbed with Klip Gut at 67lbs (it's an oversize racquet) and Kevlar at 49lbs. In my hand it felt too springy as I hit the bottom of my palm against the stringbed.
Hit with it for one hour and it played superbly. Now, if this setup lasts without shredding the gut and plays well for over three weeks, I just may have found my answer to hating poly that bags out so fast.
NOTE: For me, playing with a consistent feeling stringbed week after week is hugely important to playing well because I don't get to play every single day. Don't get me wrong, I love the feel of a freshly strung gut/poly hybrid but after a three week romance the stringbed becomes awful. Pre-stretching could extend that but frankly I never know when the string is going to play like crap. I'm from an era where a full bed of natural gut could last 3 months and feel the same tomorrow as it did yesterday. Once I mixed natural gut with poly, I was sold. If I went back to ALL Natural Gut, I think I'd want it strung at 70lbs to control the power. For now anyways, kevlar is my new romance.
Glad you're enjoying the experience and it worked for you.
 
Took some Forum advice. Strung my 18x20 stringbed with Klip Gut at 67lbs (it's an oversize racquet) and Kevlar at 49lbs. In my hand it felt too springy as I hit the bottom of my palm against the stringbed.
Hit with it for one hour and it played superbly. Now, if this setup lasts without shredding the gut and plays well for over three weeks, I just may have found my answer to hating poly that bags out so fast.
NOTE: For me, playing with a consistent feeling stringbed week after week is hugely important to playing well because I don't get to play every single day. Don't get me wrong, I love the feel of a freshly strung gut/poly hybrid but after a three week romance the stringbed becomes awful. Pre-stretching could extend that but frankly I never know when the string is going to play like crap. I'm from an era where a full bed of natural gut could last 3 months and feel the same tomorrow as it did yesterday. Once I mixed natural gut with poly, I was sold. If I went back to ALL Natural Gut, I think I'd want it strung at 70lbs to control the power. For now anyways, kevlar is my new romance.
Gut mains at 67 and kevlar crosses at 49? And it works nicely? This sounds like a new invention! Got me intrigued.
 
OK how could this possibly be? Just stringing a frame tighter is a form of prestretching, and everybody knows higher tension produces less power.

US RSA and other stringing authorities are pretty clear that prestretching improves tension maintenance but at the cost of power.
Prestretching, tension, and power level are 3 different things. They should not be conflated.

If you string tighter, it is not really prestretching (ok, maybe it is technically, but a poor way to do it). It is simply stringing tighter. It doesn't do very much to improve tension stability compared to a proper prestretch. A proper prestretch should be done at a tension well above the tension you string the racquet at (100 lbs, for example).

Stringing tighter usually, but not always, produces less power. This is because a tighter tensioned stringbed is stiffer. The stiffer stringbed causes a larger fraction of the energy of the impact collision to go into ball compression, and a lower fraction of the energy of the impact collision to go into stringbed stretching. Typically, a stringbed has energy return of between 85 and 95%. A tennis ball typically has energy return of between 40 to 50%. Since the ball is much less elastic than the stringbed (that is, the ball has much lower energy return than the stringbed), more ball compression means lower power level.

When you string an un-prestretched poly at 50 lbs reference tension, the actual tension drops to about 40 lbs by the time you are finished stringing. And week of hitting balls might drop the tension further down to 30 lbs.

But when you string a prestretched poly at 50 lbs reference tension (after prestretching at 100 lbs), the actual tension will remain 50 lbs after stringing. A week of hitting balls might drop it by a few lbs, but this tension drop is very small and hardly noticeable compared to the huge tension drop for un-prestretched poly. Since the prestretched poly will have a much higher actual tension for a given reference tension, the stringbed will be stiffer, and consequently lower power level.

However, if you drop the reference tension by 10 lbs or so when stringing a prestretched poly to compensate for the reduced tension loss, there will be no reduction in power level. In fact, you may even gain power because the energy return of a prestretched string is higher (more elasticity). More importantly, the tension of the prestretched poly will be stable until it is about to break.

A well-prestretched poly string behaves almost perfectly elastically (nearly 100% energy return - when you elongate it by applying tensile force, it returns to its original length). In contrast, an unprestretched poly has only about 85-90% energy return (when you elongate it by applying a tensile force, it does not quite return to its original length, and becomes permanently lengthed).
 
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2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
Your last paragraph made my point. Elasticity is the ability to expand when force is applied and contract when the force is removed.

The prestretched string retains it's length only because it doesn't expand much to begin with when the force is applied. A 100% return to form from a very small expansion of the string is still not much elastic movement.

Trying to bring percentages in doesn't change the fact that the original nonstretched string has much more overall elastic movement, even if it doesn't quite come back to the same length. In fact, the lengthening shows that the string still has the ability to expand more.
 
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Your last paragraph made my point. Elasticity is the ability to expand when force is applied and contract when the force is removed.

The prestretched string retains it's length only because it doesn't expand much to begin with when the force is applied. A 100% return to form from a very small expansion of the string is still not much elastic movement.

Trying to bring percentages in doesn't change the fact that the original nonstretched string has much more overall elastic movement, even if it doesn't quite come back to the same length. In fact, the lengthening shows that the string still has the ability to expand more.
No.
An unprestretched string may elongate more when pulled, but only because it has more plastic deformation (that does not recover). The more you prestretch, the more you remove plastic deformation, and the more elastically the string behaves.

Plastic and elastic, when used as adjectives to describe materials, are antonyms. Elasticity is a synonym for energy return or resilience. You are conflating elasticity with tensile compliance, which is something very different. Compliance is the inverse of stiffness.

An unprestretched string is more compliant, but a prestretched string is more elastic.

An unprestretched string is more plastic, but a prestretched string is more resilient.

For a given stringbed stiffness, a prestretched stringbed is always more powerful than an unprestretched one because it has higher elasticity.
 
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Forten 18 gauge Aramid.
I haven't tried the other gauges of Aramid or any of the Ashway offerings, but I just bought another 3 sets of Thin Blend for the 18g kev. With 6 other racquets strung with various other combination, whenever I come back to this one it always feels great.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
kevlar is soft.

@Shroud have you used kevlar below 50lbs? i'm aware you do (or did) kevlar at 86lbs. just wondered if you felt any difference in comfort

EDIT: my elbow hurts... strung my kevlar at 52lbs mains and poly crosses at 48lbs

though i think its due to overuse
I have done kevlar down to 15lbs and as high as 86. Its more comfy at lower tensions but doesnt seem to snap back as well at the lower tensions. Though its pretty stiff regardless of the tension.
 
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