gut (main) & poly (cross) for spin...

I recently strung klip gut mains and msv co-focus crosses at 57/52 in my donnay pro one (with string savers). I'm disappointed w/ the spin generation of this set up.

In my previous set up i was using klip gut mains + lux 4g at 53/47 (without string savers). This generated massive amounts of spin.

What is the reason for this difference? Is it the cross string? the tension? The string savers? I'll definitely be going back to the 4g crosses... i'm terribly disappointed in the co-focus as it came highly recommended here. What other cross strings generate good spin w/ gut mains?
 
I have been using Wilson's rip spin and I will be going back to the Lux 4g in my mains with Pacific classic gut in the crosses. This is the best set up I have found for my 98 blade 16x19
 
Hi Mr fro2000 -

I have the exact same frame as you and have experimented with dozens of Gut/Poly combinations. In my opinion, Gut/Co-Focus is somewhere near the top of the food chain for spin potential.

I think its the string savers. But there's an easy way to tell. Pluck the strings like a stand up bass. If they snap back you are good to go. If they don't snap back then the string savers are inhibiting that process that creates the additional spin.

-Jack
 
Hi Mr fro2000 -

I have the exact same frame as you and have experimented with dozens of Gut/Poly combinations. In my opinion, Gut/Co-Focus is somewhere near the top of the food chain for spin potential.

I think its the string savers. But there's an easy way to tell. Pluck the strings like a stand up bass. If they snap back you are good to go. If they don't snap back then the string savers are inhibiting that process that creates the additional spin.

-Jack

Similar frame (Dunlop AG 4D 200 Tour), so very interested as I was planning on buying some Pac Classic Gut for mains and crossing with Yonex Pro Poly Tour...what are the benefits of going down 8lbs on the crosses?
 
Lower tension gives more spin and the string saver prevents the snap back process which gives spin.
 
Hi Mr fro2000 -

I have the exact same frame as you and have experimented with dozens of Gut/Poly combinations. In my opinion, Gut/Co-Focus is somewhere near the top of the food chain for spin potential.

I think its the string savers. But there's an easy way to tell. Pluck the strings like a stand up bass. If they snap back you are good to go. If they don't snap back then the string savers are inhibiting that process that creates the additional spin.

-Jack

Hi Jack,

What has been the difference between crossing gut with Co-Focus or the Yonex string you currently use?
 
Lower tension gives more spin and the string saver prevents the snap back process which gives spin.

Hi Lack - I agree on the string savers, but lower tension does not necessarily imply greater spin. Too much tension is not good, because the mains don't slide freely. Too little tension, and they may slide too far and just bag out like a wet noodle without sufficient tension for the snap back. I have found something I posted about this a few weeks ago which explains it in greater detail. I'm in my third or 4th year of experimenting on Gut/Poly combos and I'm finding that mains at 60-62 and crosses in the low fifties works really well for me. I don't get as much of that satisfying "catch and release feel" when the gut is in the 60's, but I have much more confidence about where the ball is going. Gut is still comfy, power is still good, spin is still awesome, just more more predictable rebound angles ie control.

Hi DKnotty -

With all things string related, intuition often fails. String is a highly mysterious creature! One would assume that with lower tension, string movement increases, and spin increases. Things are not so simple.

[..]



Quote:

" Two things immediately stand out. The first is that the 16x10 60 lb. pattern creates the most spin for each string. And second, the 16x10 30lb. setup has by far the least amount of spin of any setup, except in the case of the Babolat RPM, where it still produces the least spin, but at twice the level as the other strings. The 16x19 setups produce a medium amount of spin, with the 60 and 30 lb. versions trading places back and forth for most spin output.

[..]

These findings are somewhat surprising and confounding. If spin depends on lateral string movement, and thus low friction between strings, one might expect that the 16x10 30 lb. setup would produce the most spin, having fewer strings and lower tension. This was not the case.

Furthermore, if we thought low inter-string friction was most important to facilitating string movement and spin, then we might have figured that smooth polyesters would be best and that the setups would produce decreasing spin in this order: 16x10 30, 16x10 60, 16x19 30, 16x19 60. In some instances (TCS and Synthetic Gut) this is almost the case, but not in others.

TOO MUCH STRING MOVEMENT. So the first question we want to answer is why, contrary to some expectation, does the 16x10 30 lb. setup produce the least spin? The photos in Figure 4 reveal several cases of adverse effects in this setup. Two things immediately stand out. The first is that the 16x10 60 lb. pattern creates the most spin for each string. And second, the 16x10 30 lb. setup has by far the least amount of spin of any setup, except in the case of the Babolat RPM, where it still produces the least spin, but at twice the level as the other strings. The 16x19 setups produce a medium amount of spin, with the 60 and 30 lb. versions trading places back and forth for most spin output.

These energy loss effects are particularly apparent in the 16x10 30 lb. setups. The other patterns each, in their own way, minimize these effects and therefore produce more topspin. But they are not immune from such effects and each setup has its own dominating spin inefficiencies, involving too much friction or not enough tangential force — except, compared to the rest, the 16x10 60 lb. setup, which produces the most spin for all strings.
"

-- Spin and String Stiffness, Crawford Lindsey
Link Here : http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinandstiffness.php

[..]

In the link provided above, I suggest review of the photos, and the commentary that demonstrates how string movement and deflection contribute to tangential energy loss. A simplified explanation is that if the mains slide too far, they lack sufficient energy to snap back in time to create any spin benefit. Too tight and they don't move hardly at all. So we are looking for the "Goldilocks" scenario where the string is neither too tight, or too slack. In addition, finding the right tension to maximize spin varies, as string pattern plays a key role.

-Jack
 
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MSV CO-Focus is known for power and control, not spin.
My stringer made a mistake and put CO-Focus in the Mains at
low tension and gut at a low tension.
I was pleasantly surprised, but know I will get power and not spin.
I love this combination as the ball really explodes from these strings.
 
The string savers will tighten the bed slightly, but they won't decrease spin (assuming they are Babolat Elastocross).

I would guess that the culprit is the higher tension. For me, 4G was a very ordinary string, while the Co-Focus was a bit better. But IME, there are much better strings to cross with gut if you are looking for spin.
 
I recently strung klip gut mains and msv co-focus crosses at 57/52 in my donnay pro one (with string savers). I'm disappointed w/ the spin generation of this set up.

In my previous set up i was using klip gut mains + lux 4g at 53/47 (without string savers). This generated massive amounts of spin.

What is the reason for this difference? Is it the cross string? the tension? The string savers? I'll definitely be going back to the 4g crosses... i'm terribly disappointed in the co-focus as it came highly recommended here. What other cross strings generate good spin w/ gut mains?

It is impossible to tell what the culprit is since you changed 3 variables: cross string, tension, and string savers.

I realize it might be costly, but if you are really interested in doing a comparison, you need to change 1 variable at a time. Even better is if you have two matched frames and you string one with your normal setup and one with a single variable changed, be it string, tension or 'string savers'.

Short of that, any conclusion you come to is flawed.
 
I recently strung klip gut mains and msv co-focus crosses at 57/52 in my donnay pro one (with string savers). I'm disappointed w/ the spin generation of this set up.

In my previous set up i was using klip gut mains + lux 4g at 53/47 (without string savers). This generated massive amounts of spin.

What is the reason for this difference? Is it the cross string? the tension? The string savers? I'll definitely be going back to the 4g crosses... i'm terribly disappointed in the co-focus as it came highly recommended here. What other cross strings generate good spin w/ gut mains?

String saver inhibit main string movement. Step one: remove the string savers then test again.
 
ok i'll try removing the string savers and will go from there. I am using babalot elasticross so it they shouldn't inhibit spin according to what i read. Ill try removing them anyway.

there are much better strings to cross with gut if you are looking for spin.

what strings would those be?
 
Hi Mr fro2000 -

Pluck the strings like a stand up bass. If they snap back you are good to go. If they don't snap back then the string savers are inhibiting that process that creates the additional spin.

-Jack

Thanks jack, so yes the strings have very good movement in the string bed even with the string savers... they snap back nicely which is why i'm confused as to the low amount of spin i'm experiencing.
 
Thanks jack, so yes the strings have very good movement in the string bed even with the string savers... they snap back nicely which is why i'm confused as to the low amount of spin i'm experiencing.

It requires only a small change in how the mains move to cause a noticeable change in spin potential.

I've tested a number of poly crosses in matched frames. For example, in my 315s I've tested 4G 1.25 versus pre-stretched Focus Hex 1.23 strung at 58/52 with Tonic Longevity mains.

Both stringbeds showed decent string movement when pulling on the mains and both remained perfectly neat after hitting which means the mains were snapping back in both cases.

But the FH crosses provide far more spin potential than the 4G crosses. It's not even a contest. The key difference seems to be the slightly higher CoF for 4G and its propensity to dent thus trapping the mains. FH remains perfectly smooth with use.

I also tried 1.27 FH head-to-head versus 1.23, again at the same tension and both pre-stretched. The only change in variable was gauge. The 1.23 won easily. The thicker gauge must have increased the pressure on the mains just enough to effect spin potential.

With string savers the mains may be snapping back but maybe not fast enough relative to your other stringbed. If, as I've observed, small changes in gauge and surface qualities can generate differences in spin potential then something as significant as devices specifically intended to inhibit string movement must cause interference.
 
How long have you played with this set up? You should notice the spin increasing over the first 10 -12 hours. One of the best things about the gut co focus bed is the longevity, but it starts off slow and gets better over time.
 
I've tried string beds with and without Elastocross (teflon) string savers back to back and can find zero difference in access to spin. None.

The best gut/poly hybrids I've found for spin are gut with Tour Bite and Big Hitter Blue Rough. Neither of those last as long as I'd like. Tour Bite Soft is pretty good--softer and longer lasting. But the best setup I've found is gut with Pro Line II.
 
I recently strung klip gut mains and msv co-focus crosses at 57/52 in my donnay pro one (with string savers). I'm disappointed w/ the spin generation of this set up.

In my previous set up i was using klip gut mains + lux 4g at 53/47 (without string savers). This generated massive amounts of spin.

What is the reason for this difference? Is it the cross string? the tension? The string savers? I'll definitely be going back to the 4g crosses... i'm terribly disappointed in the co-focus as it came highly recommended here. What other cross strings generate good spin w/ gut mains?

Your tensions are way too high for starters. It shouldn't be surprising that the looser stick generated more spin since a lower tension will facilitate your mains deflecting more and snapping back at impact. I don't think your eslatocrosses are an issue, except if you're put in more than 5 or so.

Also, it's very difficult to directly compare two different stringjobs at two different tensions since there is no way to isolate single variables.

You'll need to compare the two when strung at the same tension in order to reach any conclusions.
 
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Here's the thing, different people have different strokes and frames customization. There are too many variables in play here to say one setup will be better for you than another. Find the one that benefit you, don't bother with the comments you hear from people. I've tried many different gut/poly setup thanks to this forum, most of them don't suit me at all. For me Gut/Alu is the best.
 
ok so i tried removing the string savers. i definitely see an improvement in spin, although not as good as when i had the 4Gs. i did have WAY more than 5 string saver in there... maybe even like 15, i dont remember.

now that the string savers are out, it is either the strings themselves or the tighter tension that is reducing the spin.
 
ok so i tried removing the string savers. i definitely see an improvement in spin, although not as good as when i had the 4Gs. i did have WAY more than 5 string saver in there... maybe even like 15, i dont remember.

now that the string savers are out, it is either the strings themselves or the tighter tension that is reducing the spin.

In all honesty, it's not the strings.
 
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