Gut Main, Poly Cross Question??

S

Swedish9

New User
I know this issue has been beaten to death on this boards but......Just a personal Preference Question for you Tennis Warehouse Fanatics.

For a 16x20 String pattern, If i want to have a Gut main and Poly cross.... what is the general rule for tension difference??... Should the gut main be strung higher then the poly cross??... or the other way around???

Ive heard that the Gut mains shout be around 4 points higher then the poly cross ( ie. 55 Gut / 51 Poly ) is that correct???

Also, what Hybrid gauge would preform optimally for you in a 16x20 string pattern??

16 Gut Main / 16 Poly Cross

16 Gut Main / 17 Poly Cross

17 Gut Main / 17 Poly Cross

17 Gut Main / 16 Poly Cross

Thanks
 
Pretty much everybody strings the gut higher than the poly, since gut plays better at higher tensions, and poly at lower. The trick is finding your 'sweet spot'.

I string a 2lb difference for gut mains/poly crosses (54/52), but others here have gone as much as 10lbs difference. There is debate on whether this warps the frame or not, but we'll leave that to a different thread.

While I think the pattern is important, you do need to include the headsize as well. My frame is 98sq in, 16x20 (Pacific X Force Pro), and I've found a 17g gut paired with a 1.23-1.25mm poly works best. But when I used the Yonex VCORE Tour 97 last year, I dropped the poly to 1.20mm.

But as with all things racquet & string related, you need to decide for yourself what feels best.
 
I usually go 17g, and have used 16/20 before.

I went with a 3# difference at 54/51, also on a Pacific X Force Pro.

I'm afraid of head warp if I go higher than 4#, so I'll never do that.

I have had a racquet head warp before, but I think it was a manufacturer defect (it was a Dunlop Aerogel racquet).
 
Mig1NC said:
I usually go 17g, and have used 16/20 before.

I went with a 3# difference at 54/51, also on a Pacific X Force Pro.

I'm afraid of head warp if I go higher than 4#, so I'll never do that.

I have had a racquet head warp before, but I think it was a manufacturer defect (it was a Dunlop Aerogel racquet).
Click to expand...

Definitely sounds like a defective racquet as it's hard to imagine a racket warping purely due to stringing at different tensions - particularly where the difference is less than 10%.
 
When using this set up, I string the gut 4lbs more than the poly. 16g will give you more durability, while the 17g will give you more spin and power.
 
In a Gut Mains/Poly Cross Hybrid... its it more common to have same string gauges for both the mains and crosses ( 16 Gut, 16 poly or 17 gut, 17 poly) or have the thicker gauge in the Mains or the crosses?... (ie. 16 Mains Gut, 17 Cross or 17 Mains Gut and 16 Cross )

Thinking of Doing -- VS Babolat Thermogut Touch Black in the Mains and Volkl Cyclone Orange in the crosses of my New Yonex Vcore Tour G's @ 55-51 area

Yes i Know... thats a lot of Orange and Black !!!!!
 
souledge said:
I can't wait for someone to try a 60 lb gut mains and 30 lb poly cross, all in the name of experimentation.
Click to expand...

Heh, don't waste your time...

I tried 60 main / 40 cross, a while back...

It was a roller coaster, played great at first. Terrible the second time. Then ok again (probably I got used to it).

In the end, the tension mis-match made for an unpredictable response. Feel was nice, but nothing worth doing it again. I went back to 56/53 and it was perfect. If you want good feel, just use a soft poly and stay within 9 lbs of your mains.


In other news, while we're talking about experiments, I had thought, why not try tighter crosses? No one does that... so I tried 51 main / 59 cross in gut /poly too.

This one was actually very crisp and controlled, and not harsh at all. In a way, the tight crosses kept the mains in place very well. I really liked this one in terms of longevity, because it seemed that stringing the poly tight accounted for the tension loss that would come as it was used. Sure enough, the stringbed played very well until the gut broke, never with a big drop in control you sometimes get over time as the poly dies. Spin was a bit 'less easy' as the tighter crosses seemed to 'lock' the mains in place. However, the benefit was directional control and longevity. Since spin is mostly based on technique, the spin here was still fine, and still great feel, power & control.

As far as gauge, I always did thicker 16L mains / 18g thin poly crosses, in my 18x20.

For a 16x20, I would go 16g / 17g. I found thinner crosses than your mains does help feel & playability without hurting durability.
 
Swedish9 said:
I know this issue has been beaten to death on this boards but......Just a personal Preference Question for you Tennis Warehouse Fanatics.

For a 16x20 String pattern, If i want to have a Gut main and Poly cross.... what is the general rule for tension difference??... Should the gut main be strung higher then the poly cross??... or the other way around???

Ive heard that the Gut mains shout be around 4 points higher then the poly cross ( ie. 55 Gut / 51 Poly ) is that correct???

Also, what Hybrid gauge would preform optimally for you in a 16x20 string pattern??

16 Gut Main / 16 Poly Cross

16 Gut Main / 17 Poly Cross

17 Gut Main / 17 Poly Cross

17 Gut Main / 16 Poly Cross

Thanks
Click to expand...

Stick with 16g for your hybrids. Start with the gut just as you have it, 55 lbs in mains, with 51 lbs poly crosses. That should be fine.
 
Prince Classic Graphite 100

VS Gut 16L(BT7)/CoFocus 17 - 59/52

Feels Awesome. Gut lasts about 20 hours. Restring poly every 8 hrs or so.
 
I like 60/50 (dropweight) for gut or multi mains and poly crosses.

souledge said:
I can't wait for someone to try a 60 lb gut mains and 30 lb poly cross, all in the name of experimentation.
Click to expand...

It would probably warp the head about a quarter inch.

I'd think as the hoops shortens, the pressure on the long axis would decrease and increase on the short axis until some equilibrium is reached. Hopefully, that point isn't a cracked frame :)

I've gone 60/45 without cracking a frame (stiff PDR). However, you could probably get the same result from safer tensions.
 
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Swedish9 said:
For a 16x20 String pattern, If i want to have a Gut main and Poly cross.... what is the general rule for tension difference??... Should the gut main be strung higher then the poly cross??... or the other way around???

Ive heard that the Gut mains shout be around 4 points higher then the poly cross ( ie. 55 Gut / 51 Poly ) is that correct???

Also, what Hybrid gauge would preform optimally for you in a 16x20 string pattern??

16 Gut Main / 16 Poly Cross

16 Gut Main / 17 Poly Cross

17 Gut Main / 17 Poly Cross

17 Gut Main / 16 Poly Cross

Thanks
Click to expand...

What gauge you should use really comes down to one thing: you.

So the real question is: what works best for you?

Typically, people use about a 0.05mm differential between their mains and crosses because slightly less surface area comes into contact. I do this as well, although I've gone down 0.1mm without difficulty.

In every case, I'd suggest to players that they use the thinnest gauge of string they can that won't snap on them too early. Too early for me is <50 hours, but for others it may be <35.

What will make the difference in the longevity of your stringjobs is (a) how hard you hit the ball, (b) how much spin your mechanics put on it, and (c) whether your frame is open or closed pattern.

If you're a beginner or intermediate, you can probably safely use 17g gut mains. Thinner gauges give more spin and better feel. But when someone gets to the 4.0-4.5 level, that's when mechanics and string patterns really come into play. If they have really Nadal-like swings and use a Bab or one of the newer Wilson spin frames, they're going to shred through strings faster and should go to 16g or 15L.

For players 5.0 and above, they'll probably have to use 16g mains unless they're playing with a prestige mid or maybe a redondo -- just because "hitting hard" for a 5.0+ is in a whole different league than lower players.

By point of comparison, Djoker is the only touring pro I can think of who uses 17g gut mains, but he alternates rackets every hour or so, so longevity isn't a concern of his.

Good luck!
 
why chase your tail looking for a "myhtical and magical" tension difference between main and cross?

String it the same tension and go hit the courts.
 
i go about 10 % higher on the gut-- my thinking is that poly is supposed to be that much lower so if my gut is 56 i do the poly 50..

i used to do crosses higher (in full poly by 2-3 lbs ) and now im trying a couple lbs lower to see if it makes the mains slide more-- so a 6lb spread should be only a minimal difference with poly being that much stiffer?
i dont have an answer yet if the slightly looser crosses help the mains more..

i have never tried 17 gut-- 16l last me 10-14 hours and i would expect less from 17..

i like 17 gauge normally so i mix 16 gut to 17 crosses
 
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cartel said:
i go about 10 % higher on the gut-- my thinking is that poly is supposed to be that much lower so if my gut is 56 i do the poly 50..

i used to do crosses higher and now im trying a couple lbs lower to see if it makes the mains slide more-- i dont have an answer yet ..

i have never tried 17 gut-- 16l last me 10-14 hours and i would expect less from 17..

i like 17 gauge normally so i mix 16 gut to 17 crosses
Click to expand...

I don't understand how a lower tension on the crosses would cause the mains to slide more. I'm all about experimentation though.
 
im guessing that the tighter the crosses the more friction is holding the mains..

ive done 3 rackets this way now but those were different string setups than i did before-- just did a cyclone/sweet hybrid and went 3lb lower on crosses - so i will see how this works out..

i think the string choice makes more difference-- strings that notch quickly prevent sliding back-

when i did crosses tighter my thinking was put crosses tighter to hold mains straight-- i cant stand straightening strings every point.. when the mains start sliding and sticking off center (10-14 hours ) then i cut them out..

i bought a stringing machine so i could play with tensions and see what tension changes i could feel..
 
SCRAP IRON said:
That would be interesting- Although it might prove to be fruitless!
Click to expand...




Haha that would be something. I can just imagine the review.

"Inconsistent string bed ..."

No doubt it would have some affect on the frame but it may be feasible in some sturdy graphite rackets. Even then- maybe not a 30 lb gap
 
Tension on your MP racquets?

Smasher08 said:
What gauge you should use really comes down to one thing: you.

So the real question is: what works best for you?

Typically, people use about a 0.05mm differential between their mains and crosses because slightly less surface area comes into contact. I do this as well, although I've gone down 0.1mm without difficulty.

In every case, I'd suggest to players that they use the thinnest gauge of string they can that won't snap on them too early. Too early for me is <50 hours, but for others it may be <35.

What will make the difference in the longevity of your stringjobs is (a) how hard you hit the ball, (b) how much spin your mechanics put on it, and (c) whether your frame is open or closed pattern.

If you're a beginner or intermediate, you can probably safely use 17g gut mains. Thinner gauges give more spin and better feel. But when someone gets to the 4.0-4.5 level, that's when mechanics and string patterns really come into play. If they have really Nadal-like swings and use a Bab or one of the newer Wilson spin frames, they're going to shred through strings faster and should go to 16g or 15L.

For players 5.0 and above, they'll probably have to use 16g mains unless they're playing with a prestige mid or maybe a redondo -- just because "hitting hard" for a 5.0+ is in a whole different league than lower players.

By point of comparison, Djoker is the only touring pro I can think of who uses 17g gut mains, but he alternates rackets every hour or so, so longevity isn't a concern of his.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
Smasher- What tension do you string your MP racquets? I currently use the Head-IG Prestige MP (Anniversary) and string it with Pacific Gut- Classic (17g) mains(50lbs.) and Head-Hawk(17g) crosses(46lbs) and love it. I picked up the new Head-Grahene MP (used) strung it the same, rocket launcher! As you most likely know in the graphene racquet, the weight has been distributed to the head and handle areas. I was thinking of increasing the tension a few pounds due to the extra weight in the head, how much? I also have a few I-Prestiges, one of the best feeling Prestiges. Look forward to your input. Thanks- Dan
 
Hotrocks said:
Smasher- What tension do you string your MP racquets? I currently use the Head-IG Prestige MP (Anniversary) and string it with Pacific Gut- Classic (17g) mains(50lbs.) and Head-Hawk(17g) crosses(46lbs) and love it. I picked up the new Head-Grahene MP (used) strung it the same, rocket launcher! As you most likely know in the graphene racquet, the weight has been distributed to the head and handle areas. I was thinking of increasing the tension a few pounds due to the extra weight in the head, how much? I also have a few I-Prestiges, one of the best feeling Prestiges. Look forward to your input. Thanks- Dan
Click to expand...

I actually don't have any MPs -- all of mine are mids!

The one I use the most is 46 x 42, and my alternates are 48 x 44 and 44 x 40. Taking into account the difference in dynamic tension due to headsizes, I'd guess that if all other factors were equal, I'd have to increase tension by a pound or two if transfering over to a MP -- although, realistically, it would probably have to be fine-tuned by trial and error.

In your case, there could be bad QC at work. I once had a pair of i.PMs that were 7g off from each other, and the lighter one really didn't have the same plow.

You should try spec'ing yours our to see what if any differences there are in static weight, head weight, tail weight, balance, and swingweight. If they're more than 2g apart (lol or for me, more than .3g apart) that may be your culprit.

If there's a dramatic difference in swingweight, then there's little you can do other than reign in the tension. I'd suggest trying 2 or 3 lbs, depending on how badly it's launching. Or you could use TW's swingweight calculator, grab some lead, and to try and match them better so that then you have near-identical spec'ed rackets.

Good luck!
 
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Currently playing with the Wilson ps95s (16x15). Just strung it for first time with gut (mains) and poly (crosses) 58/54. Curious about the durability of this setup considering the string pattern. Don't consider myself a heavy hitter which is the primary reason I am trying this, to improve upon pace and power. Anyone try this setup on this frame and how long did it last?
 
cjo128 said:
Currently playing with the Wilson ps95s (16x15). Just strung it for first time with gut (mains) and poly (crosses) 58/54. Curious about the durability of this setup considering the string pattern. Don't consider myself a heavy hitter which is the primary reason I am trying this, to improve upon pace and power. Anyone try this setup on this frame and how long did it last?
Click to expand...

I haven't, but do yourself (and your wallet) a favour and use string savers where you begin to see notching.
 
These days I tend to have my tension in gut/poly hybrids right around what the Bryan Brothers use (copy and paste from Colin the Stringer's website):

Bob Bryan Prince Tour 95
Prince Natural Gut/Prince Beast XP 56/52lbs

Mike Bryan Prince Tour 95
Prince Natural Gut/Prince Beast XP 54/51lbs

Djokovic runs a bit higher lately.

Novak Djokovic Head YouTek Graphene Speed Pro 18×20
Babolat VS Team Natural Gut/Luxilon Big Banger Alu Power Rough 59/56lbs
 
ideally maybe gut main 2/3 lbs tighter than poly cross.


I cheap out by stringing the poly cross multiple times on a gut main.

The gut keeps getting older while I put on new poly cross, so I string gut 5lbs tighter initially.

I plan to string gut 6/7 lbs tighter next time.
 
taurussable said:
ideally maybe gut main 2/3 lbs tighter than poly cross.


I cheap out by stringing the poly cross multiple times on a gut main.

The gut keeps getting older while I put on new poly cross, so I string gut 5lbs tighter initially.

I plan to string gut 6/7 lbs tighter next time.
Click to expand...

do you tie off the cross on itself or to a main?
 
SpinToWin said:
depends on the racquet... The next hole where a tieoff is possible is where you do it (be it main or cross), pretty simple.
Click to expand...

well, i've never replaced crosses only (as was part of the present discussion), BUT it seems to me if you are doing so while using gut mains it would be beneficial to tie off the crosses on a cross if possible.
 
tbuggle said:
well, i've never replaced crosses only (as was part of the present discussion), BUT it seems to me if you are doing so while using gut mains it would be beneficial to tie off the crosses on a cross if possible.
Click to expand...

The first tieoff will be done on a main no matter what (as far as I know), so it's not a big difference ;)
Usually for me the second tieoff ends up being on a cross anyways.
 
SpinToWin said:
The first tieoff will be done on a main no matter what (as far as I know), so it's not a big difference ;)
Usually for me the second tieoff ends up being on a cross anyways.
Click to expand...

one could use a starting clamp and tie off on a cross, no problem.
just curious as to how folks who change the crosses only are going about it.
removing and retying knots on gut anchor mains could get dodgy, i would think, although you could alternate at least once (starting crosses on opposite side, using the opposite main to anchor, if doing so).
 
tbuggle said:
one could use a starting clamp and tie off on a cross, no problem.
just curious as to how folks who change the crosses only are going about it.
removing and retying knots on gut anchor mains could get dodgy, i would think, although you could alternate at least once (starting crosses on opposite side, using the opposite main to anchor, if doing so).
Click to expand...

That's a valid and really interesting question... I'm not sure tbh.
Could somebody who cuts out his crosses upload a picture of how his racquet is strung and explain how he cuts out the poly crosses/restrings them?
 
while i have not restrung any poly-crosses so far and am not using gut mains, i do very often replace the crosses on my poly-mains-hybrids, as the multi does not last longer than about two hitting hours until it breaks, and the poly is not heavily notched by that time.

obviously natty gut mains will be more sensible than poly mains, so regarding the tie-off knots of the poly-crosses we are talking about here would be better placed on the other side than the first ones. that can be done easily ba following two basic rules:
1. check with the buttcap for the position on the first stringing and make sure to reverse the position on the restringing (on a wilson stick for instance you could have the "w" for the first stringing and then make sure you have a "m" on the restringing).
2. i made it a habit to always start stringing the crosses top down and the first cross i'm putting in i start weaving it from beneath the first main it will intersect. if you observe this rule than the restringing will not be "on" the notches but on the less affected part, which could prove to be beneficial for natty mains.

regarding taking out the strings:
- first secure the stick in your stringer (hopefully a six-point).
- then procede to cutting the crosses and take them out.
- the upper and the lower knots i basically pull into the center of the stringbed by means of plier and then carefully try to open it up. when i have pulled the knots too tight (sh.. happens but not too often) then i try to carefully cut them in order to be able to remove them.
 
^^^ right on, had not considered reversing the notching to the opposite side but i imagine that would become clear if i ever attempt it.
 
tbuggle said:
one could use a starting clamp and tie off on a cross, no problem.
just curious as to how folks who change the crosses only are going about it.
removing and retying knots on gut anchor mains could get dodgy, i would think, although you could alternate at least once (starting crosses on opposite side, using the opposite main to anchor, if doing so).
Click to expand...

I've done it a few times. Just have to be careful, and you won't wreck the gut mains.

Both my crosses tie-off to mains, and I never changed the location.

Just be sure to clamp racquet securely first, cut the crosses from throat to head, and like fgs said, be very careful and use needle-nose pliers to slide the knot down where you can either untie it carefully, or snip the knot carefully without nicking the gut. Unweaving old crosses and re-weaving new crosses adds some minor wear and tear on your gut, but nothing worse than hitting topspin groundies.

If you have patience and a steady hand, it is doable. I used to have patience but I'm back to full poly easy mode.
 
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Ok, just strung a cheap setup to enter into this foray. My latest setup has been Klip Legend 17 full bed at 58#.

16g India gut (naturalgutwholesale from the Bay) mains

Gosen Polylon SP 17g (white) crosses

56/51# (Head MG Rad MP).

we shall see........ just wanted to try it out without throwing the good stuff at it right away.

the cheap gut was coming untwisted in a couple spots, i just re-twisted as i strung the mains and clamped the twist into the job as i went. it strung up fine (didn't break on the machine as has been reported by some), but is inconsistent in gauge (tight on first couple grommets). also, it is quite gummy, not slick like the coated KLIP I've strung before for myself and others (full bed only, I've yet to string any VS, but i have some Pacific Classic in cue).

edit: I also double pulled each string (x/m) to lockout, for a abit of a "pre-stretch".

I also tied off the poly crosses on themselves to make it easier and less obtrusive to the gut mains in the event I try to replace crosses only.
 
Last edited:
SpinToWin said:
I haven't, but do yourself (and your wallet) a favour and use string savers where you begin to see notching.
Click to expand...

That is a good idea, especially for my wallet! When this setup goes, I'm leaning slightly cheaper with pacific gut, topspin cyber blue, TCS or big hitter blue.
 
drakulie said:
why chase your tail looking for a "myhtical and magical" tension difference between main and cross?

String it the same tension and go hit the courts.
Click to expand...
I agree. The three or four pounds one might drop tension on the crosses equates to a tiny drop in string and stringbed stiffness, maybe 4% or so. In addition, when pros drop tension in the crosses they are looking at a 24 hour lifespan for their strings, whereas rec players are looking at a longer playing term and much greater tension loss over that span. The crosses are going to drop much more than three or four pounds over that period, so why give a head start at the outset? If one wants the cross strings to be softer, just choose a more flexible (less stiff) copoly from the get go.

The TWU String Friction Tool is good for choosing slippery and flexible crosses. Just go down the list looking for something with low friction, low stiffness and high or low energy return, as per your fancy.
 
drakulie said:
why chase your tail looking for a "myhtical and magical" tension difference between main and cross?

String it the same tension and go hit the courts.
Click to expand...

corners;8285494[B said:
]I agree.[/B] The three or four pounds one might drop tension on the crosses equates to a tiny drop in string and stringbed stiffness, maybe 4% or so. In addition, when pros drop tension in the crosses they are looking at a 24 hour lifespan for their strings, whereas rec players are looking at a longer playing term and much greater tension loss over that span. The crosses are going to drop much more than three or four pounds over that period, so why give a head start at the outset? If one wants the cross strings to be softer, just choose a more flexible (less stiff) copoly from the get go.

The TWU String Friction Tool is good for choosing slippery and flexible crosses. Just go down the list looking for something with low friction, low stiffness and high or low energy return, as per your fancy.
Click to expand...

I'm looking for recommendations as I'm new to this. I also battle some TE/GE.

Thanks
 
struggle said:
I'm looking for recommendations as I'm new to this. I also battle some TE/GE.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Check out that TWU tool. There are lots of slippery strings in the top of the list that also have low stiffness. You can find something with COF<0.09 that also has low stiffness and high energy return for a smooth, spinny and comfortable response.

Also don't miss this epic thread, wherein ChicagoJack quests for the softest copoly to pair with gut mains: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=442868
 
drakulie said:
why chase your tail looking for a "myhtical and magical" tension difference between main and cross?

String it the same tension and go hit the courts.
Click to expand...

That's what I have been doing using VS 16 and a 1.25 smooth poly cross and it works great. I've also done a 2lb differential in the past and they feel exactly the same. I've tried using 17L or 18 poly crosses and they end up snapping on me too soon.
 
The best "soft" gut/poly setup I've used is gut/Yonex Poly Tour Pro. Does everything well overall, spin, pop, control, touch. The only thing is you won't get the crisp feel of gut/ALU. However even with this setup, my TE/GE started flaring up after a while. Gut/YPTP was a lot better than gut/ALU or gut/Ltec 4S for my elbow and wrist but for a bad case of TE/GE, still not soft enough.

I now play lefty and am about 80% of my righty capability. Right arm TE/GE problem solved!
 
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