gut/poly is so much more arm friendly for me, so I thought…

[sixtyseries]

I’ll start by saying, I’m quite confused.

I have been using a Blade 98 v8 for a couple of years now. Found my way into gut/poly early on and have loved the feel and pocketing. It also happened to line up that it was an arm-friendly solution. It’s expensive, but so is everything else and I would rather pay for strings than PT or doctors visits. The Blade is soft, the strings are mostly soft. Using Babolat VS gut and a mix of different crosses. All usually at 53/51 or around there. The setup has felt great while playing, but after, my wrists and my arm would be really sore. My wrists in particular felt very weak. So other than going full gut, wasn’t sure what to do. This lead me down looking at trying a different racquet and seeing if something translated differently. So I grab demos of the new 2024 Head Speed MP and Babolat Pure Strike 16x20. They were both strung with Head Lynx. I was nervous to demo with full poly, but did so anyways. I played with the Speed on a practice match and it felt really great. No arm pain.. Then the next day or two, I played with the Pure Strike. Same story, really liked the frame and no pain or sore wrists.. so I’m thinking with no pain on full poly, my guy/poly will be even better…


So I decided to buy a Pure Strike frame from my local shop. Ask them to string it up with my usual setup, VS gut mains, Head Lynx cross 53/51. Get out to the court the next day. After I play, sore wrists and sore forearm… Play a few more times with it, same result. Waited a couple of days to heal up a bit, cut the strings out, put Lynx in full bed at 44lbs (similar to the demo I used that was originally strung at 50lbs but wasn't super fresh) and go play. NO PAIN.

Can anyone explain this? Or had similar experience? I know my tension on the hybrid was a bit higher, but, not that different.. and I have been playing that setup long enough to see the tension drop on the hybrid. I am so confused. I’m still just figuring this out and exploring it, but it seems to be a better fit for my arm. Now, I hope Lynx isn’t the only answer, because that is not my favorite string.. it’s a tension maintenance nightmare for me. I will say, while playing, gut/poly feel and pocketing is INSANE. If I switch to full poly, I’m gonna really miss that feel.

TLDR: Been playing gut/poly hybrid for a while and having comfort issues after playing, now finding full bed of a softer poly at mid 40s tension is not giving me any pain.

 

[Trip]

@sixtyseries - As non-intuitive as your case above may seem, nothing is out of the realm of possible when it comes to real-world comfort versus what is "supposed to be", especially in tennis. As far as wrist comfort goes, a good portion has to do with the vibrations that reach that area, including how many Hz frequencies and the amplitude of each. Combine that with how different each one of us can be when it comes to body composition, tissue condition, biomechanical differences, etc., and it's absolutely possible for you to find discomfort with gut/poly, or anything else, really.

In this case, my first point of wonder is whether the poly cross(es) you've been using may be a bit too harsh, for whatever reason. If you've tried enough different ones -- crisp to muted, firm to soft -- to rule that out, then I wonder if it could be the simple combining of the two string types, generating a wider gamut of vibrations that make it to your wrist, versus, just using a single kind of string, be it all-gut or all-poly, or all something else, with possibly a narrower profile of frequencies in total, or at least an absence/lessening of the ones that seem to hurt your wrist tissue. I know that sounds potentially a bit out there, but you never know. Stranger things have happened...

All that said, I think maybe the first thing to try would be a more muted/rubbery/shock-absorbent poly cross, if you haven't tried anything like that so far -- something like IsoSpeed Cream, or similar. Plenty of people have enjoyed gut/Cream on here enough to play with it continually. Or if you think you've covered enough bases there and it's still not improving things, then you may very well be better off with a hybrid that isn't gut/poly, or even a full bed of a soft-enough poly at mid tension, or a more firm-but-shock-absorbent poly, strung low (like <45 pounds). One such hybrid that may work would potentially be a "multiester" string in the mains, such as Tecnifibre HDMX or Wilson NXT Control (both made by Tecnifibre, might even be the same string), or Triax (a bit more crisp/firm), with a slick/soft cross, such as Cream, or MSV Swift (a bit more firm), or TP Ghostwire (more firm still). As for full-bed of poly, versus Lynx, you might have better tension maintenance and playable longevity from playing something like Lynx mains, with a cross like TP Ghostwire, or maybe full-bed Swift.

Hope some of that helps! Any questions, feel free.

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Relatively tight tensions presumably result in a smaller sweet spot & more partial miss hits?

 

[stapletonj]

You dropped tension by almost 10 pounds down into the 40s. You could string Kevlar that low and have no arm pain (exaggerating)...
drop tension 10 pounds on the gut, go with say, Isospeed cream in the crosses and see what happens.

just my 0.02

 

[Leen]

Some say the extra dwell time in the string bed can cause discomfort. Versus the ball exiting the string bed sooner with a stiffer string so less prolonged exposure to the vibrations. Idk if I totally believe this myself but heard a few youtubers go on about this thought.

 

[veelium]

Definitely possible, definitely the opposite for me personally.

 

[socallefty]

Your tension is too high on the gut/poly hybrid. I like fullbed gut at 57 or 58 lbs and fullbed poly at 42 to 44 lbs. When I switched to gut/poly hybrids, I first tried tensions in the mid/low fifties and didn’t like it as the stringbed was too stiff. Only when I went to mid forties did I start liking playing with hybrids. I now play with VS mains/HyperG Soft crosses at 47/44 on a Pure Strike Tour and 44/40 on a weighed-up Strike VS. Higher tension gut/poly hybrids will feel less comfortable than low tension soft polys as long as you break or cut out the poly before it goes dead.

 

[EggSalad]

The higher tension of the poly cross is most likely the culprit.

Not related to your post, but I’ve also had Gut/Poly notch and lock up and that creates a really harsh string bed. And of course, I’ve also left the poly cross in welll after it died and that can hurt as well.

 

[sixtyseries]

@sixtyseries - As non-intuitive as your case above may seem, nothing is out of the realm of possible when it comes to real-world comfort versus what is "supposed to be", especially in tennis. As far as wrist comfort goes, a good portion has to do with the vibrations that reach that area, including how many Hz frequencies and the amplitude of each. Combine that with how different each one of us can be when it comes to body composition, tissue condition, biomechanical differences, etc., and it's absolutely possible for you to find discomfort with gut/poly, or anything else, really.

In this case, my first point of wonder is whether the poly cross(es) you've been using may be a bit too harsh, for whatever reason. If you've tried enough different ones -- crisp to muted, firm to soft -- to rule that out, then I wonder if it could be the simple combining of the two string types, generating a wider gamut of vibrations that make it to your wrist, versus, just using a single kind of string, be it all-gut or all-poly, or all something else, with possibly a narrower profile of frequencies in total, or at least an absence/lessening of the ones that seem to hurt your wrist tissue. I know that sounds potentially a bit out there, but you never know. Stranger things have happened...

All that said, I think maybe the first thing to try would be a more muted/rubbery/shock-absorbent poly cross, if you haven't tried anything like that so far -- something like IsoSpeed Cream, or similar. Plenty of people have enjoyed gut/Cream on here enough to play with it continually. Or if you think you've covered enough bases there and it's still not improving things, then you may very well be better off with a hybrid that isn't gut/poly, or even a full bed of a soft-enough poly at mid tension, or a more firm-but-shock-absorbent poly, strung low (like <45 pounds). One such hybrid that may work would potentially be a "multiester" string in the mains, such as Tecnifibre HDMX or Wilson NXT Control (both made by Tecnifibre, might even be the same string), or Triax (a bit more crisp/firm), with a slick/soft cross, such as Cream, or MSV Swift (a bit more firm), or TP Ghostwire (more firm still). As for full-bed of poly, versus Lynx, you might have better tension maintenance and playable longevity from playing something like Lynx mains, with a cross like TP Ghostwire, or maybe full-bed Swift.

Hope some of that helps! Any questions, feel free.

I like the comment on vibration frequency, definitely feel part of that is what makes different setups work for different people. I have tried lots of crosses. 51 on the cross could be it. But I'm not sure I want to go lower, I am fighting control as it is with the gut. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[sixtyseries]

You dropped tension by almost 10 pounds down into the 40s. You could string Kevlar that low and have no arm pain (exaggerating)...
drop tension 10 pounds on the gut, go with say, Isospeed cream in the crosses and see what happens.

just my 0.02

I feel like 40lbs on gut is gonna turn into a rocket launcher right??

 

[sixtyseries]

Your tension is too high on the gut/poly hybrid. I like fullbed gut at 57 or 58 lbs and fullbed poly at 42 to 44 lbs. When I switched to gut/poly hybrids, I first tried tensions in the mid/low fifties and didn’t like it as the stringbed was too stiff. Only when I went to mid forties did I start liking playing with hybrids. I now play with VS mains/HyperG Soft crosses at 47/44 on a Pure Strike Tour and 44/40 on a weighed-up Strike VS. Higher tension gut/poly hybrids will feel less comfortable than low tension soft polys as long as you break or cut out the poly before it goes dead.

What did playability feel like on that tension drop on the gut?

 

[sixtyseries]

The higher tension of the poly cross is most likely the culprit.

Not related to your post, but I’ve also had Gut/Poly notch and lock up and that creates a really harsh string bed. And of course, I’ve also left the poly cross in welll after it died and that can hurt as well.

I'm really good about restringing times. The locking up the stringed is def a thing with gut/poly for me. Interesting note.

 

[sixtyseries]

Just reading the comments. I still have half a set of gut I can experiment with going lower tension. I have some ghostwire, but no cream. I can grab some though.

I did string up Hyper G Soft 1.20 at 44lbs on my other frame and hit a bit this morning with it, no soreness. Although, didn't love the string, at least not that low. Was hard to get control and too mushy feeling.

 

[Kevo]

When I was stringing full gut to compare with multi and poly string beds I would string the gut about 15lbs tighter than the poly. It wouldn't surprise me if you have the poly cross too tight.

It might also be a change in your technique with the gut setup. Gut has a much different dynamic to it compared to poly. It wouldn't be surprising if you are actually changing the mechanics of your stroke when using the gut setup and that change has an impact on the soreness you feel afterwards.

 

[Hawks9451]

Lynx at 44 is extremely soft, just use that if it's working for your body.

There are so many variables in your first post that it's pointless to isolate one part of the equipment.

 

[socallefty]

If you are playing well with fullbed poly at low tension, just stick with it. Why mess with more expensive gut/poly hybrids. The lifetime is not much different as either the gut will break or the poly will go dead in the hybrid also.

 

[sixtyseries]

Lynx at 44 is extremely soft, just use that if it's working for your body.

There are so many variables in your first post that it's pointless to isolate one part of the equipment.

Absolutely agree

 

[sixtyseries]

If you are playing well with fullbed poly at low tension, just stick with it. Why mess with more expensive gut/poly hybrids. The lifetime is not much different as either the gut will break or the poly will go dead in the hybrid also.

well, just figuring out I might be able to stick with lower tension poly which would save me tons getting away from gut, that would be amazing.

 

[Leen]

I personally get wrist pain if the string stops snapping back or is left in too long. Essentially all the shock goes into my wimpy wrist and I feel all the hurt. Instead of the string springing back the force of the ball.
Wonder if you leave the strings in too long for gut/poly set up? I know gut really plays until it breaks but not sure if a hybrid follows the same rules as a full bed poly set up where you typically want to cut it out before it goes dead.

 

[sixtyseries]

Yeah I get that. I am pretty good at not leaving it in too long, so I wouldn't think that would be my issue. Starting to look like it might be the 51lbs poly cross tension. I always thought that was a reasonable tension, especially being paired with gut.

 

[socallefty]

I personally get wrist pain if the string stops snapping back or is left in too long. Essentially all the shock goes into my wimpy wrist and I feel all the hurt. Instead of the string springing back the force of the ball.
Wonder if you leave the strings in too long for gut/poly set up? I know gut really plays until it breaks but not sure if a hybrid follows the same rules as a full bed poly set up where you typically want to cut it out before it goes dead.

My wrist/elbow hurts when the poly goes dead in a gut/poly hybrid even at 47/44. With ALU Power, it can happen within 8 hours.

 

[Rosstour]

I feel like 40lbs on gut is gonna turn into a rocket launcher right??

No, I string a shaped poly at 40 and it's magical

 

[veelium]

I personally get wrist pain if the string stops snapping back or is left in too long. Essentially all the shock goes into my wimpy wrist and I feel all the hurt. Instead of the string springing back the force of the ball.
Wonder if you leave the strings in too long for gut/poly set up? I know gut really plays until it breaks but not sure if a hybrid follows the same rules as a full bed poly set up where you typically want to cut it out before it goes dead.

Gut/poly snaps back until it breaks.
Might not play as great and/or become overly launchy/powerful when the poly cross goes to die but at least the snapback stays.

 

[sixtyseries]

No, I string a shaped poly at 40 and it's magical

What shaped string do you use if you don't mind?

 

[Rosstour]

@sixtyseries Volkl Cyclone Tour

My wrist/forearm also hurt after I played with a Blade for whatever that's worth...maybe the grip was too small. That was strung with Luxilon Savage and felt great.

 

[stapletonj]

I feel like 40lbs on gut is gonna turn into a rocket launcher right??

that is a possibility. I string mine at 62M/54X with no arm pain. YMMV - try dropping the gut 5 lbs. instead of ten and use the softest poly you can get (I have yet to find a softer poly than Cream)...

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Yep, Cream or Yonex PT Air.

 

[GravitysElbow]

Just to back up your experience: I had a similarly strange one. I demoed a Vcore 98 strung with Tour Bite Soft. Loved it, bought it, but thought I would be conservative to start with, so went with a multi (Sensation) at 52lbs for the first string job. Forearm and elbow pain each time I played. Took it back and re-strung with Poly Tour Pro, also at 52lbs: no pain. Tour Bite Soft, also 52lbs: no pain.

I got similar forearm pain from very soft racquets, the Clash, Prince ATS Tour 98. Very unexpected. I don't seem to like too much dwell time, I wonder if somehow my brain perceives the flex as instability and I grip too hard without realising.

I don't worry too much and just keep re-stringing with soft poly. I can't go too stiff though either

 

[sixtyseries]

Just to back up your experience: I had a similarly strange one. I demoed a Vcore 98 strung with Tour Bite Soft. Loved it, bought it, but thought I would be conservative to start with, so went with a multi (Sensation) at 52lbs for the first string job. Forearm and elbow pain each time I played. Took it back and re-strung with Poly Tour Pro, also at 52lbs: no pain. Tour Bite Soft, also 52lbs: no pain.

I got similar forearm pain from very soft racquets, the Clash, Prince ATS Tour 98. Very unexpected. I don't seem to like too much dwell time, I wonder if somehow my brain perceives the flex as instability and I grip too hard without realising.

I don't worry too much and just keep re-stringing with soft poly. I can't go too stiff though either

This is the kind of stories I was wondering if were out there. So interesting. I felt like I was taking crazy pills. I still might try lowering my gut/poly tension in the future. But for now sticking with softer poly. Thanks for sharing!

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Could you possibly be gripping too tightly in an effort to rein in power & allow for what become further off center hits with the more powerful but more tightly strung racquet?
I find poly/multi hybrids at 48lbs & multis at 52lbs have a significantly smaller - although sweeter - sweet spot than full poly at 44/42lbs.

 

[dyslexical-scope]

Just to back up your experience: I had a similarly strange one. I demoed a Vcore 98 strung with Tour Bite Soft. Loved it, bought it, but thought I would be conservative to start with, so went with a multi (Sensation) at 52lbs for the first string job. Forearm and elbow pain each time I played. Took it back and re-strung with Poly Tour Pro, also at 52lbs: no pain. Tour Bite Soft, also 52lbs: no pain.

I got similar forearm pain from very soft racquets, the Clash, Prince ATS Tour 98. Very unexpected. I don't seem to like too much dwell time, I wonder if somehow my brain perceives the flex as instability and I grip too hard without realising.

I don't worry too much and just keep re-stringing with soft poly. I can't go too stiff though either

Had a pretty similar experience recently while experimenting with a VCore 100L (2018).
First outing I had it strung with Multifeel full bed at 56lbs.
Usually I play Multifeel at lower tensions but in a very open string pattern 100 headsize racquet I decided to pull the tension up.
From the start it felt unpleasant on my forehand wing, jarring and blunt for lack of a better term.
Could feel my forearm getting tight almost right away, not something I'm used to feeling outside of a bad day where I'm just hitting super late on everything.
Towards the end of the session I switched back to my trusty Phantom 97p strung with Dunlop Explosive Spin at 40lbs and that felt far more comfortable.
Next time on court I had that same VCore strung up with TruPro Firewire mains at 52lbs and Yonex Poly Tour Air crosses at 54lbs, it was very comfortable and easy to play with.
It was also surprisingly loud, like every hit had the volume turned up to 11 -- not sure if that was the racquet or the strings.

A part of me thinks the ball bite of many poly offerings has a positive influence on comfort.
The better the ball gets caught on the mains, the more of the ball's energy is going into loading the mains snapback spring effect, or something scientific and enginerdy like that.
The extra launch angle probably helps with comfort too.
And you can pull poly down to just about any tension you want and it will still be pretty consistent.

I can't speak on gut though, never dabbled in it.
Could they breed a cow that produces gut with a rounded square shape a la Hyper-G?

 

[GravitysElbow]

Yes, sweet spot size and power could well be factors I guess. Multis are also much lighter, and maybe a slight change in swingweight and especially launch angle might mean unconsciously changing stroke to lift / spin the ball more?

Or maybe it is the smoothness of poly? Stiff string bed in one direction but more mobile vertically?

I have never strung poly really low, will try it
Edit: that's not true, of course I have played poly at low (unknown) tensions in demos, and often liked it.

 

[sixtyseries]

Ok small update for anyone who cares or for any future folks. The Strike and Lynx seems to be a match made for my arms. But one of my Strikes is 300sw and with the 100in head I’m definitely feeling late at times when under pressure. This caused me to bring out my Blade 98 V8 again hovering right at 320sw. I strung it up fresh with Lynx at 47lbs just like my Strike. My wrist were hurting almost instantly and for a couple of days after. So this tells me it is something with the vibrations in the racquet. Which really is a bummer because I instantly felt at home with it and my racquet head speed and strokes felt so good.

After 2 days, played again with my wrists still a bit sore, but with another Strike with a 326sw and Lynx 47lbs and my soreness in my wrists are gone. It was definitely better sw wise for me.

I really love the blade, my last idea is to try the new v9 and see if it’s compatible for me. If not, I’ll just stay put and put more in into learning the Strike. It’s so nice not playing with discomfort afterwards. Or maybe try the Strike 98?

 

[Lack]

Harsh vibration frequency on string to ball impact may cause pain on your joints. Since we all have different body water percentage, harsh vibration frequency for some may be different for others.

 

[Tan Tennis]

I think it all depends on the tension of the poly, because stiffness comes from there. I have the same experience with you regarding comfort. I feel like poly in 45 lbs is softer than hybrid at 50 lbs. Now I use poly tension as the reference. If you normally play with fullbed poly at 45 lbs, stick with that and put gut/multi at couple lbs higher tension on the main or cross.

 

[sixtyseries]

I think it all depends on the tension of the poly, because stiffness comes from there. I have the same experience with you regarding comfort. I feel like poly in 45 lbs is softer than hybrid at 50 lbs. Now I use poly tension as the reference. If you normally play with fullbed poly at 45 lbs, stick with that and put gut/multi at couple lbs higher tension on the main or cross.

Totally, makes sense. But as I mentioned above the same string, same tension in the blade 98 v8 hurts my wrists, and the strike 1620 gen4 doesn’t. Played yesterday and I’m starting to really get along with full bed poly, so I’m not upset about it. Just finding it interesting. I am planning to test the v9 blades this week and hopefully those might have enough change from v8 feel to not cause soreness for me.

 

[Tan Tennis]

Totally, makes sense. But as I mentioned above the same string, same tension in the blade 98 v8 hurts my wrists, and the strike 1620 gen4 doesn’t. Played yesterday and I’m starting to really get along with full bed poly, so I’m not upset about it. Just finding it interesting. I am planning to test the v9 blades this week and hopefully those might have enough change from v8 feel to not cause soreness for me.

From what I read, you got sore wrist and forearm on this gut/poly setup at 53/51 lbs on both Blade and Pure Strike right? I would guess that tension is too high for your arms. So if you want to keep using this setup, probably simply lower the tension down.

 

[nintendoplayer]

Totally, makes sense. But as I mentioned above the same string, same tension in the blade 98 v8 hurts my wrists, and the strike 1620 gen4 doesn’t. Played yesterday and I’m starting to really get along with full bed poly, so I’m not upset about it. Just finding it interesting. I am planning to test the v9 blades this week and hopefully those might have enough change from v8 feel to not cause soreness for me.

What I miss so far (only one user mentioned it shortly) is the issue of swingweight. As a hyper-sensitive nerd myself and also someone who never got along with gut completely (especially due to the high tensions it needs, which lead to issues for me, as well) I have learned a lot about swingweight lately. Your Blade probably has a lower swingweight than the PureStrike which is known for swinging heavier than the Blade (v8 especially which is quite low in SW). Higher swingweight automatically means more comfort on contact, because the higher mass (possibly overall higher mass, but most probably higher swingweight) reduces vibrations a lot, the higher you go in (swing)weight the less harmful vibrations reach your arm.
Also the Strike vibrates differently in general, different vibration frequencies than the Blade. And(!) last but not least: the Strike is more powerful. A more powerful frame means you have to put in less energy into every stroke.
So from my perspective you experience similiar things I‘m counter-intuitively also currently experiencing with the Pure Drive.
The less power you need to invest (because the frame itself has more power) and the higher the swingweight, the less painful stuff is happening on contact - with the right string setup as well.
Although there is a (subjective swing)weight limit for every player at which the comfort is reduced again, but that‘s an issue you‘ll possibly notice in longer matches.
If you really want to get to the bottom of „why?“ you should get your frames measured in detail. Balance, static weight, swingweight at least.

And yes - lower tension is always a good thing, as well, but it obviously isn‘t the only reason for your observations.

Oh and one more thing I noticed with all smaller head sizes and the Blade 98 v8 in comparison to 100sq inch heads (your Strike is 100sq inch right?): the Blade, due to its smaller stringbed area, can go much(!) lower in tension than 100sq inch frames while still maintaining the same control. Smaller head is always equal to „go lower in tension“ relatively. So if you would want to compare the Blade to a 100sq inch frame as closely as possible, it‘s incorrect to string the Blade at the same tension in my opinion. You‘re just making your life harder due to the unnecessary stiffness of the stringbed on the Blade which also leads to even less power and you having to put in even more work in comparison to the Pure Strike, because the Strike‘s stringbed is a lot looser in comparison, paired with the Strike‘s higher swingweight and power.
I regularly measure my freshly strung frames with apps like „Stringster“ or a mechanical Gamma Tension Tester and that‘s why I regularly have objective numbers underlining that observation. The measured tension on the Blade is always higher in relation - I can also feel it when hitting the stringbed with my hand.
2kg lower tension on the Blade compared to a 100sq inch is a good relative starting point for me, I currently lower the tension on the Blade even further without loosing control but gaining some more free depth in the process.

So my take on this again is: measure your racquets and specs in more detail, then you‘ll get answers to your „why does this happen?“ question.