Guy Forget: Nadal above Ali, Pele or Jordan

socallefty

Legend
That's not the main point though. It's ridiculous to think a tennis icon is greater than Ali, Jordan and Pele. These are some of the most legendary names in sports.

If there was no Nadal or Djokovic, then Federer probably could have been considered as great as Ali and Jordan.
Agree that tennis is not a popular enough sport played by the masses to warrant any feat in it being the greatest ever in all of sports.
 

NeutralFan

Legend
Pele? Lol! 57% of people voted for Maradona as player of the century and then FIFa had to make an award to please their good boy , Pele. initially people had to vote player of the century award and Pele got merely 16% votes while Maradona got whooping 57% of the votes.
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
That's not the main point though. It's ridiculous to think a tennis icon is greater than Ali, Jordan and Pele. These are some of the most legendary names in sports.

If there was no Nadal or Djokovic, then Federer probably could have been considered as great as Ali and Jordan.
To single out any one athlete as the greatest of all sports is ridiculous on its face, period.

Totally agreed on your rationale, however. I'll just add that if there's a single greatest figure in all of tennis her name is Martina Navratilova, with an honorable shout-out to Billie Jean King whose impact on the big wide world extends beyond her sport a la Ali.

It's flawed logic to begin with. How do we measure what's the most difficult tournament/sporting event?

I would say Tour de France is tougher to win than the French Open for example.
I've lost count of the times someone told me water polo is among the most physically taxing activities they've ever participated in, but how many of us can name even one WP player without looking? This Olympics junkie couldn't.

Of course there are other kinds of difficulty. Golf may not make you sweat like football (take your pick) or basketball, but it arguably punishes a single mistake more harshly than any other sport and even this nonfan marvels at how the top guys/gals keep their composure in clutch time. Ditto baseball where even the very best batters struggle to take a good swing at the ball more than 1/3 of the time. (I still think @dominikk1985, who's from Germany of all places, put it well when he said there's no greater feeling in sports than hitting a clean home run.) And I've already noted how several official surveys point to volleyball as the world's most popular participant sport. Are golf/baseball/volleyball somehow lesser sports than football or basketball because they don't meet our preferred criteria? Rubbish.

Ali, Pele, Maradona, Jordan, Bolt, Phelps, Michael Schumacher are all greater than Nadal ever can be.

Muhammad Ali is probably the greatest considering his off the ring influence as well, the guy is more famous than any sportsman worldwide.

Guy Forget has made himself look like a fool by comparing a tennis player to Muhammed Ali.
No auto racer ranks so high, LOL. I'm honestly not even sure what they look like, nor can I recall reading any story about them on either side of the Pacific. If anything it's more likely that any of the tennis legends is better known worldwide than a Schumacher, Senna or whoever (I struggle to name a 3rd one, to give U another inkling of their not-so-great fame).
 
That's not the main point though. It's ridiculous to think a tennis icon is greater than Ali, Jordan and Pele. These are some of the most legendary names in sports.

If there was no Nadal or Djokovic, then Federer probably could have been considered as great as Ali and Jordan.
Feder is the greatest human being to have ever lived.
जय हो फेडर
 

thepaint19

Hall of Fame
Even in the 90s we regularly heard people say that the French Open was the hardest slam to win physically and mentally.
And now in 2000s we are in the most baseline-orientated era ever, so its even harder to win the French Open in recent years.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Pele? Lol! 57% of people voted for Maradona as player of the century and then FIFa had to make an award to please their good boy , Pele. initially people had to vote player of the century award and Pele got merely 16% votes while Maradona got whooping 57% of the votes.
The voters there were people from the internet meaning to a big extent clueless fanboys. Among most experts and ex-players Pele is still the best of all times. Way more titles, way better longevity and way more versatile player than Diego, only peak level is remotely debatable.
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
The voters there were people from the internet meaning to a big extent clueless fanboys. Among most experts and ex-players Pele is still the best of all times. Way more titles, way better longevity and way more versatile player than Diego, only peak level is remotely debatable.
Not to mention the cheating done by Diego on numerous occasions which helped him achieve greater success

Playing fair is critical part of any sport
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Ali, Pele, Maradona, Jordan, Bolt, Phelps, Michael Schumacher are all greater than Nadal ever can be.
Definitely agree with the first four. For the second three, it depends on how we define greatness. Bolt and Phelps have definitely dominated their respective sports more than Nadal has dominated tennis (not sure for Schumacher though), however in terms of popularity they are not ahead of him.
 

alexio

Legend
lol if you don't have a clear gap over other two dudes and those two dudes basically in the same league as you plus you don't have ur own era, hardly you can be higher than that untouchable pantheon of those biggest icons of the sports
 
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alexio

Legend
Michael Schumacher is the GOAT of F1, he actually dominated his era totally. There was nobody on par with him.
Lewis Hamilton is basically a next era champ who equaled/broke Michael's records.

This is not a case of Fed-Novak where they are from the same period. Michael Schumacher is 16 years older to Hamilton, there is no overlap in their productive careers, it is like Sampras - Nadal.

Michael used to hold most of the records in F1 in his time with no peer. Of course he has dominated his sport more than Nadal or else I would not have mentioned him.
(y)
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Michael Schumacher is the GOAT of F1, he actually dominated his era totally. There was nobody on par with him.
Lewis Hamilton is basically a next era champ who equaled/broke Michael's records.
Yes but GOAT is of all time not only his era and you say it yourself, Hamilton has equaled his record and even after Schumacher ended his career some still had Senna ahead. Schumacher also lost against Hill, Villeneuve, Häkinnen in his prime before his domination began.
Michael used to hold most of the records in F1 in his time with no peer. Of course he has dominated his sport more than Nadal or else I would not have mentioned him.
Schumacher also didn’t have some Novak/Fed like competition and it is tough anyways to compare tennis to F1 where a lot depends on your car as well and when you are your team’s top driver, teammates are not challenging you. Anyways, I said “not sure whether Schumacher dominated his sport more than Nadal”, not that it is completely off. However, definitely not such a clear cut as with Phelps and Bolt.
 

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
The voters there were people from the internet meaning to a big extent clueless fanboys. Among most experts and ex-players Pele is still the best of all times. Way more titles, way better longevity and way more versatile player than Diego, only peak level is remotely debatable.
I would have thought Messi is the majority GOAT at this stage?
 
It's a ridiculous statement to make. On behalf of all objective tennis fans, I strongly disagree with Guy Forget. Ali, Pele and Jordan are still greater than Nadal. Nadal might not even be the greatest tennis player of all time yet. Laver, Borg and Sampras can't be ignored.
I agree completely. But what else can you expect from a person with a name such as Guy Forget. :(
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
I would have thought Messi is the majority GOAT at this stage?
The vote the other user was referring to was from some years ago. Thing with Messi is, that his results on the international stage completely pale in comparison with Pele. Most experts who have watched both play, still have Pele ahead.
 

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
The vote the other user was referring to was from some years ago. Thing with Messi is, that his results on the international stage completely pale in comparison with Pele. Most experts who have watched both play, still have Pele ahead.
What would it take for you to rank Messi ahead? A world cup?
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
What would it take for you to rank Messi ahead? A world cup?
Good question. Pele won three WCs (record), first one won at age 17 (record), 12 goals and 10 assists in 14 games at WC stage, so at this stage it is not possible anymore for Messi to surpass him at international level.

On club level, they are close to equal. Some people will quibble about Pele’s alleged weaker competition as he always played in Brazil (or the MLS), but this is the old rookie mistake of not understanding the different landscape in football back then as compared to today. Back in the 60s, the Brazilian league was next to the best in the world, as all the best players in the world played in their domestic leagues and transfers to foreign countries were really rare.
This is however all nothing but comparing of stats, if we carefully watch videos of Pele playing (also keeping in mind that 90% of his play wasn’t recorded), one sees that he was so unbelievably far ahead of his time, way more than Messi or anyone else ever came close to.
 

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
Good question. Pele won three WCs (record), first one won at age 17 (record), 12 goals and 10 assists in 14 games at WC stage, so at this stage it is not possible anymore for Messi to surpass him at international level.

On club level, they are close to equal. Some people will quibble about Pele’s alleged weaker competition as he always played in Brazil (or the MLS), but this is the old rookie mistake of not understanding the different landscape in football back then as compared to today. Back in the 60s, the Brazilian league was next to the best in the world, as all the best players in the world played in their domestic leagues and transfers to foreign countries were really rare.
This is however all nothing but comparing of stats, if we carefully watch videos of Pele playing (also keeping in mind that 90% of his play wasn’t recorded), one sees that he was so unbelievably far ahead of his time, way more than Messi or anyone else ever came close to.
Who do you have as your 2nd and 3rd best players?
 

Nole_King

Hall of Fame
Ali, Pele, Maradona, Jordan, Bolt, Phelps, Michael Schumacher are all greater than Nadal ever can be.

Muhammad Ali is probably the greatest considering his off the ring influence as well, the guy is more famous than any athlete worldwide.

Guy Forget has made himself look like a fool by comparing a tennis player to Muhammed Ali.
And I thought it was difficult to compare tennis players across eras ....
 

crimson87

Rookie
Fangio is greater than Nadal or any tennis player. He used a polo shirt and some leather gloves and old ass gloves to drive a coffin with a strapped engine at 170 MPH.

Any sportsman that faces death on a daily basis is greater than a tennis player.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Who do you have as your 2nd and 3rd best players?
Too many to choose from. Messi, C. Ronaldo, Puskas, Garrincha, Cruyff, and especially Ronaldo Nazario. Actually, potential wise Fenomeno was the only one who could have been anywhere on par with Pele hadn’t it been for his injuries and for a better work ethic. As things stand, gun to my head I would put Messi and Cristiano as 2 and 3, no order between them.
 
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alexio

Legend
Too many to choose from. Messi, C. Ronaldo, Puskas, Garrincha, Cruyff, and especially Ronaldo Nazario. Actually, potential wise Fenomeno was the only one who could have been anywhere on par with Pele hadn’t it been for his injuries and for a better work ethic. As things stand, gun to my head I would put Messi and Cristiano as 2 and 3, no order between them.
cristiano hah, messi maradona and pele def top 3 players ever (in no p. order)
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
cristiano hah, messi maradona and pele def top 3 players ever (in no p. order)
Tough to argue against all his CHL titles, goal records etc. Other than Messi he has proven himself in different leagues and I would consider his European Championship title bigger than Messi’s Copa America and Olympic Gold, especially given that he had the weaker supporting cast.
 

alexio

Legend
Tough to argue against all his CHL titles, goal records etc. Other than Messi he has proven himself in different leagues and I would consider his European Championship title bigger than Messi’s Copa America and Olympic Gold, especially given that he had the weaker supporting cast.
i guess you too focusin much on records, but not always titles say full story, wut maradona did on a field cr7 could only dream of for sure
 

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
Tough to argue against all his CHL titles, goal records etc. Other than Messi he has proven himself in different leagues and I would consider his European Championship title bigger than Messi’s Copa America and Olympic Gold, especially given that he had the weaker supporting cast.
C Ronaldo gets underrated compared to Messi quite a bit. I don't think it's super clear one is vastly better than the other even though the numbers favour Messi.

Ronaldo's off ball strengths get underrated which makes up for the fact he isn't as creative as Messi.
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
Maybe not as a pure athlete but we are underestimating F1 drivers in terms of impact globally, Michael Schumacher is known more worldwide than the Big 3 and F1 is more popular than Tennis. F1 drivers drive at speeds close to 370+, the highest speed records during a race is almost 380. The reflexes of F1 drivers is arguably quicker than Tennis players, so I of course Schumacher is more influential than Nadal.

Michael is a guy from the 1990s who raced till mid-late 2000s, this is a career that paralleled with Sampras/Agassi, now compare Michael with Pete/Andre and see who is bigger, there is your answer.
Again color moi skeptical as someone who's lived more than a decade on each side of the Pacific. The only 3 auto racers I could name without looking are Schumacher (though I struggle with the spelling), Senna and NASCAR's Jeff Gordon (K, U can throw in Danica Patrick if U insist), and that's only cuz I see the 1st 2 mentioned in sports forums like TTW and as a kid I was bombarded with TV ads featuring the latter. If I didn't care for sports or live in the US I wouldn't have a clue about even these 3.

And Google Trends confirms my impression:


As U can see Mike has usually trailed even Novak except for the brief spike in late '13/early '14 when he had that skiing accident, much like Tiger dwarfed all 4 during his infidelity scandal. (BTW that latter episode is yet another illustration of what a sh!tty species we humans are, but let's not get sidetracked.) Obviously even this is an incomplete global picture as there's scant data from much of Asia and Africa - I've said this before but Google can't hope to compete with Naver in South Korea, to name but one major market - but do U really expect F1 to outpace tennis in China, Iran or Egypt?

Obviously I'm biased as a tennis fan, but it does seem to moi that you're understating this sport's global impact while overstating F1's. Which brings us to....

From an athletic perspective we can perhaps rate 1 sport over another, we shouldn't do it, this will anger a lot of people but it is what it is.

For example Cricket is followed by Billions, there are more fans of cricket than there is of Tennis or Cycle Racing, but we know for a fact that cricket doesn't required players to be as fit as Tennis or Cycle Racing. The lowest recorded resting heart rate for a cyclist is Miguel Indurain which is something like 28 beats per minute, this is lower than any athlete ever, even Lance Armstrong is at 32 BPM which is lower than any tennis player's and definetly much lower than any cricketer's. Virat Kohli is the fittest cricketer of all time, I don't think he is under 35, he might be around 40. Among tennis players Murray was recorded at 37, not sure where Big 3 are, they too must be around the same range. Michael Phelps has been recorded at 38. Bolt and Lance Armsrong both have been recorded at 32. Going under 35 is not possible for a cricketer but it is possible for a cyclist, that means cycling requires more endurance and they are fitter than cricketers who have fat around their bellies.

This clown ( His name is Rohit Sharma ) is one of the best batsmen in the world of Cricket and one of the leading cricketers of the last 12 years. He can get away with such an unhealthy lifestyle but can a tennis player get away with it ? Surely no .... Can a Cyclist or a 100M sprinter get away with it ? Absolutely no, never ever.

1st off, I was gonna point this out in that thread of yours but U really shouldn't put too much stock in those online sports rankings by supposed worldwide popularity. Pretty much all of 'em are hack jobs that simply look at where a sport is popular, add up the population and leave it at that. I mean the ICC itself estimates that about 300 million fans actively follow the sport worldwide, and yet these geniuses would have U believe that # is closer to 2 billion, or more than 6 times the official estimate or double the 1B total of both casual and serious fans. It really doesn't even pass the laugh test.

2nd, these parameters are too narrow. It's actually not so clear that lower heart rate = superior fitness/athleticism, and I'm also not sure why BPM, endurance or sprint time should be so valued over timing or hand-eye coordination when major sports like cricket, baseball and tennis place greater emphasis on the latter. Are even unquestionable ATGs like Karelin or Naim Süleymanoğlu to be counted out simply because their BPM wouldn't fall under 40 or they couldn't run 100m under 11 sec?

And 3rd, Sharma doesn't actually look that clownish to moi. U should peruse some old pictures of Babe Ruth and ask yourself how this guy is still widely considered the GOAT in baseball. :D

The voters there were people from the internet meaning to a big extent clueless fanboys. Among most experts and ex-players Pele is still the best of all times. Way more titles, way better longevity and way more versatile player than Diego, only peak level is remotely debatable.
It'll be interesting to see how Pele's own death (gawd forbid) compares in terms of media coverage with Maradona's which was indeed worldwide news but fell off the radar pretty quick. Of course some of that has to do with the world's preoccupation with the biggest pandemic in a century, but I'm actually not so sure that hurt the news coverage if at all cuz many of us were still in semi-lockdown mode.

To underscore this point further here's how Maradona fares against this century's biggest newsmakers I could confirm/think of:


(FYI Mandela's own passing was roughly in the same range as Maradona's, and Tiger's scandal, perhaps even more lamentably, was bigger news.)

Not much of a contest, really, especially when U factor in more limited internet access in the aughts. In the wake of Diego's death I'd tell his biggest fans, including a few older ones who should've known better, that politics and sports take a back seat to pop culture at large, but mostly to no avail. (Obama and Trump are historic exceptions to the rule for obvious reasons. GWB and Biden, save for the latter's Trump-assisted boost, have been more in line with traditional POTUSes.) And unsurprisingly all of 'em were men, so my efforts were bound to fail. :happydevil:

Too many to choose from. Messi, C. Ronaldo, Puskas, Garrincha, Cruyff, and especially Ronaldo Nazario. Actually, potential wise Fenomeno was the only one who could have been anywhere on par with Pele hadn’t it been for his injuries and for a better work ethic. As things stand, gun to my head I would put Messi and Cristiano as 2 and 3, no order between them.
Don't tell this to @Sudacafan, LOL.
 
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