Has Djokovic become a clearer GOAT in tennis than Messi and Jordan in their sports?

Has Djokovic become a clearer GOAT in tennis than Messi and Jordan in their sports?

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In terms of basketball, in addition to it clearly being the second biggest sport in the world according to many metrics (mainstream popularity, money, global reach etc.), though a very distant second behind football, it’s also clearly the most ‘individualistic’ team sport. I’m stating the obvious here, but due to its inherent nature, i.e. with it being so end to end, the fact that only 5 players per team are on court at one time etc, the best basketball players have the ball for a higher % of game time both offensively and defensively, compared to the best players in other team sports, meaning that they’re generally (even) more influential.

As superhuman as Messi, CRonaldo etc. have been over such a long time, of course they’ll understandably be matches when they and / or their teammates are not up to their usual standards, and therefore in which they’ll be largely anonymous and struggle to get on or retain the ball. Even if the likes of Lebron James, Steph Curry etc. have an off night, they’ll still see plenty of the ball even if they don’t make best use of it, so it’s highly unlikely that they’ll be anonymous.

So that alongside the fact that it has a far deeper talent pool than any individual sport or other team sports minus football, is a strong factor in favour of the best basketball players. Of course the global talent pool in football is still considerably deeper.
 
Entername said:
The Serb is pretty clearer the GOAT of tennis now as he basically holds every record in the sport and he's still the number one player whereas his closest competitors (Fed and Rafa) are both more or less done. At this rate, it feels like he can become an even clearer GOAT in tennis than Messi and Jordan are in football and basketball, respectively.

Messi after winning the WC + Golden Boot + 8th Ballon D'or has basically locked up the GOAT title for good over the past year, clear of Pele, Maradona, and CR7.

Jordan has been the GOAT of basketball for a long time now but LeBron has challenged him in the last 20 years but I still think MJ is better but not by the margins of the other two imo.

Thoughts?
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Messi's GOATness isnt that clear cut, many areas where CR7's stats are better. Usain Bolt is a better example
 
Poisoned Slice said:
:D I knew you would appreciate that. He can redeem himself and even take himself to new heights if he does fight Usyk. But I'm not expecting the fight because I don't want to be disappointed once more.

Cruyff impresses me. Yes, he has to be in the discussion. :cool:

''A name on our lips when we ask, who are the greatest players ever?''

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Going to watch it later. I saw other great documentary on Cruyff.

We could go back to the old 20 round and 45 round format (yes that used to be a thing but with 2 min rounds)
 
GuyForget said:
Messi's GOATness isnt that clear cut, many areas where CR7's stats are better. Usain Bolt is a better example
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Usain Bolt's records look they are going to hold for a long time. Don't think anyone has come that close to breaking his 100m and 200m IIRC.
 
AgassiSuperSlam11 said:
The same thing can be said about Ty Cobb. However, his numbers were far ahead of any of those other "inflated" players. He transformed the "dead ball" era by hitting 60 homers in one season smashing Frank "Home Run" Baker who never exceeded 12 in one season. Willie Mays or Ty Cobb were not 2-way players as Ruth or Ohtani. That is analogous to a great QB later becoming a great rusher or receiver. Ruth won multiple rings with different teams playing completely different positions.
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Statistically, Mike Trout is the greatest baseball player of all time.
 
martinezownsclay said:
Or for that matter over Bolt or Jordan who are far more iconic than Djokovic, who barely anyone outside of tennis knows even today. You Djoker-****s are something else.
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I understand that it’s hard to think clearly when one is perpetually triggered, but the OP has nothing to do with who’s more iconic or well known and it isn’t even asking people to rank the athletes in terms of their greatness. It’s asking who has the better GOAT claim within the context of their chosen sport, which is a completely different question. You could consider factors like depth of talent as a tiebreaker if you think two athletes have an equally or similarly viable claim relative to the next best in their sport in this comparison, but if we’re actually restricting the analysis to what is being asked by OP then even someone like Phil Taylor would come out looking very good here because there’s simply nobody who has a better GOAT claim in the sport of darts, even if an inter-sport comparison wouldn’t be anywhere near as flattering.

Anyway it’s obviously easier to evaluate individual accomplishments and accolades within the context of an individual sport than a team sport due to the number of variables and factors that obscure a player’s impact and value in the latter, and Djokovic holds basically all major records at this point and is clearly a tier 1 ATG regardless of whether you believe he’s the outright GOAT, so there’s obviously a case for ranking him quite highly in this comparison.
 
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Entername said:
The Serb is pretty clearer the GOAT of tennis now as he basically holds every record in the sport and he's still the number one player whereas his closest competitors (Fed and Rafa) are both more or less done. At this rate, it feels like he can become an even clearer GOAT in tennis than Messi and Jordan are in football and basketball, respectively.

Messi after winning the WC + Golden Boot + 8th Ballon D'or has basically locked up the GOAT title for good over the past year, clear of Pele, Maradona, and CR7.

Jordan has been the GOAT of basketball for a long time now but LeBron has challenged him in the last 20 years but I still think MJ is better but not by the margins of the other two imo.

Thoughts?
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I'm not sure Messi is the goat. My vote goes to Maradona
 
roysid said:
I'm not sure Messi is the goat. My vote goes to Maradona
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maradona is overrated, and i say this as a big fan of him and argentina. i mean, he is one of the greatest, but messi and pele are both greater and better. i know many will disagree, it is just my opinion.
 
gold olympic medals..latynina 9, comaneci 5, biles 4..
Simone Biles won her first world championship gold exactly 10 years ago. Since then, she has increased her collection of awards at a phenomenal pace. For a long time, Simone was considered the greatest gymnast of our time, but the American’s reputation was damaged in 2016, when scandalous details of her success were leaked to the press.
The Fancy Bears group of hackers obtained a database of athletes who received therapeutic exemptions from WADA. Biles, who was allowed by officials to take methylphenidate, was also on this list. It is intended for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Simone did not deny this information.
You can approach this situation differently, but these drugs definitely helped the athlete achieve numerous victories at prestigious competitions, allowing her to overcome anxiety and concentrate at the most important moment.
 
alexio said:
gold olympic medals..latynina 9, comaneci 5, biles 4..
Simone Biles won her first world championship gold exactly 10 years ago. Since then, she has increased her collection of awards at a phenomenal pace. For a long time, Simone was considered the greatest gymnast of our time, but the American’s reputation was damaged in 2016, when scandalous details of her success were leaked to the press.
The Fancy Bears group of hackers obtained a database of athletes who received therapeutic exemptions from WADA. Biles, who was allowed by officials to take methylphenidate, was also on this list. It is intended for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Simone did not deny this information.
You can approach this situation differently, but these drugs definitely helped the athlete achieve numerous victories at prestigious competitions, allowing her to overcome anxiety and concentrate at the most important moment.
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Yeah I remember hearing about the ADHD thing.
 
The nagging question in my mind after taking the survey and voting "no" is this ... Is his world-wide marketing better than either Messi or Jordan? I have to say no to that. I'm not sure (from my perspective here in the USA) how many people outside tennis even know who he is? That certainly can't be said of either Jordan or Messi (to the same degree and by comparison). Maybe in time this will change, but since Tennis viewing has been so reduced (it is declining and relegated mainly to cable tv) over the years here in the USA it's unlikely to happen especially since basketball and soccer (football) are gaining so much popularity. I wish this wasn't true but maybe in time it will change for the better for Tennis.
 
martinezownsclay said:
LOL at ranking Djokovic above Phelps, who is 100x more dominant and far ahead in the record books in his sport than Djokovic is in his, even with Djokovic having the second half of his career vs the worst field in the over 100 year history of his sport (vs Phelps who competed his entire career in probably the strongest field in history). Or for that matter over Bolt or Jordan who are far more iconic than Djokovic, who barely anyone outside of tennis knows even today. You Djoker-****s are something else.
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It's funny how haters like to parrot this nonsense now that they don't have any argument. I haven't met anyone who doesn't know who Djokovic is (or Nadal or Federer for the matter). Even my mother who doesn't watch a single sport knows him and even way before he owned any records.
 
RS said:
Legit think if Haye was a bigger dude naturally he might have beaten Wlad
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Haye gets so overrated at HW though. His only really good performance was in the Chisora fight. Valuev lost to a 45 year old Holyfield, Evander was just unlucky not to get the decision there.
 
Mivic said:
Pretty sure Fury would have beaten Haye if their fight had gone through as well. Fury was in career best shape at the time.
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Fury always raises his level out of nowhere I would have backed him too had that happened. I don't think he would have been as reckless as he was against Cunningham
 
RS said:
boxing-wba-world-heavyweight-title-nikolai-valuev-v-david-haye-nuremberg-GC4BCJ.jpg


@Poisoned Slice :p
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Haye beating Valuev, and taking that heavyweight belt away from him, was great for heavyweight boxing.

Valuev was painfully boring to watch, and IMO a 46 year old Holyfield was completely robbed against him during their 2008 fight (Holyfield should have broken Foreman's record as the oldest heavyweight champion). On top of that he had no intention of fighting either of the Klitschko brothers, as he was desperate to cling on to his belt at all costs. He turned down a $ 2 million offer (huge for him given his lack of appeal and popularity) to fight Vitali in 2010 (Vitali has got to be one of the most ducked fighters at least in modern times).

At least Haye breathed some new life into the division, and actually fought Wlad during his 3rd fight as heavyweight champion. His first fight after beating Valuev was against a mandatory challenger Ruiz, and also it would have been completely unreasonable to expect to him to fight a Klitschko brother immediately after winning his belt. Clearly his next fight against Harrison was a complete farce and sham - I knew that and refused to pay to watch it. But him facing Wlad in his 3rd fight as heavyweight champion instead of in his 2nd fight, wasn't such a big deal, given how many big fights have stalled for years and happened too way late, or not happened at all.
 
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Gizo said:
Haye beating Valuev, and taking that heavyweight belt away from him, was great for heavyweight boxing.

Valuev was painfully boring to watch, and IMO a 46 year old Holyfield was completely robbed against him during their 2008 fight (Holyfield should have broken Foreman's record as the oldest heavyweight champion). On top of that he had no intention of fighting either of the Klitschko brothers, as he was desperate to cling on to his belt at all costs. He turned down a $ 2 million offer (huge for him given his lack of appeal and popularity) to fight Vitali in 2010 (Vitali has got to be one of the most ducked fighters at least in modern times).

At least Haye breathed some new life into the division, and actually fought Wlad during his 3rd fight as heavyweight champion. His first fight after beating Valuev was against a mandatory challenger Ruiz, and also it would have been completely unreasonable to expect to him to fight a Klitschko brother immediately after winning his belt. Clearly his next fight against Harrison was a complete farce and sham - I knew that and refused to pay to watch it. But him facing Wlad in his 3rd fight as heavyweight champion instead of in his 2nd fight, wasn't such a big deal, given how many big fights have stalled for years and happened too way late, or not happened at all.
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I think Valuev said somewhere didn't want to face the Klitschko's because he would drawn into a rematch clause and if he won that he would have to face Wlad by contract for a 3rd time I heard that somewhere.

Even Lewis didn't really want Vitali again that was part of why he hung up imo. Looked like it wouldn't even happen because Haye pulled out in 2009 but at least we got that in the end. I think stylistically Valuev with any one of the Kiltschko's or even Haye vs Vitali which also nearly happened would have been a more exciting matchup than Wlad-Haye was.
 
RS said:
Legit think if Haye was a bigger dude naturally he might have beaten Wlad
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When they fought in 2011 it was advertised it was only 2 inches between them. That's hard to believe when you see them together Haye looks so small in comparison IMHO.
 
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If by goat you mean the best then nole is the best but jordan ist and messi is far from being the best
if by goat you mean the most famous the most iconic most legendary then only jordan qualify
messi is arguably and there is no one in tennis
 
ElisRF said:
When they fought in 2011 it was advertised it was only 2 inches between them. That's hard to believe when you see them together Haye looks so small in comparison IMHO.
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Haye was not 6'3 for sure :p

I believe Wlad at 6'5 that looks legit.
 
Mivic said:
Haye gets so overrated at HW though. His only really good performance was in the Chisora fight. Valuev lost to a 45 year old Holyfield, Evander was just unlucky not to get the decision there.
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I don't think he was considered a world beater after that Fury fight didn't go through he got a lot of stick for that though. He certainly had some bad fortune with the injury problems and he was better suited at cruiser.
 
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BauerAlmeida said:
It's funny how haters like to parrot this nonsense now that they don't have any argument. I haven't met anyone who doesn't know who Djokovic is (or Nadal or Federer for the matter). Even my mother who doesn't watch a single sport knows him and even way before he owned any records.
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LOL at using your mother as an example. Considering you, her son, are an obvious Djokovic fanatic of course she would know who he is, regardless if she is interested in sports or tennis or not. What a dumb ass example.
 
martinezownsclay said:
LOL at using your mother as an example. Considering you, her son, are an obvious Djokovic fanatic of course she would know who he is, regardless if she is interested in sports or tennis or not. What a dumb ass example.
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BauerAlmeida said:
It's funny how haters like to parrot this nonsense now that they don't have any argument. I haven't met anyone who doesn't know who Djokovic is (or Nadal or Federer for the matter). Even my mother who doesn't watch a single sport knows him and even way before he owned any records.
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lol
 
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