Has Novak Djokovic benefited from a 'weak era' more than Roger Federer?

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Has Novak Djokovic benefited from a 'weak era' more than Roger Federer?


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Every tennis fan has heard the argument. Roger Federer, his critics say, holds 17 major singles titles, the all-time record, only because he's part of a "weak era."

Here's the theory: Federer racked up 12 of those 17 Grand Slam championships between 2003 and 2007, when his chief competition was unusually raggedy. His generation's top stars, after Federer himself, were the middling champions Lleyton Hewitt, Marat Safin, Juan Carlos Ferrero, David Nalbandian, Tommy Haas, Nikolay Davydenko, Andy Roddick and Fernando Gonzales.

Rafael Nadal, more than four years younger than Federer, kept the Swiss from winning everything in sight during those years by reaching a high level of play early in his career, scoring his first French Open championship in 2005 at 19. By 2008, Nadal had reached his prime and taken Federer's Wimbledon title and his number-one ranking. Soon,Novak Djokovic, nearly six years younger than Federer, had also surpassed the Swiss, proving once again that Federer wasn't all that the late David Foster Wallace had made him out to be.

The theory keeps coming up on social media and elsewhere, what with Djokovic now more than halfway to Federer's Grand Slam total, and that might lead one to think that where there's smoke there's fire. But the thing is, if you buy into the Federer-had-it-easy reasoning, then you have to say that Djokovic, the reigning Wimbledon champion and World No. 1, is also benefiting from a weak era -- perhaps one that's even weaker than Federer's. Djokovic has won eight of his nine majors in the past five years -- which, quality-wise, has clearly been a fallow period on the tour, right? The Serb has faced Federer, a guy well past his 30th birthday, in the last two Wimbledon finals. His natural rival, Nadal, has struggled with chronic injury problems for years and has now fallen to 10th in the world rankings. His other natural rival, Andy Murray, beat Nole in two major finals in 2012-13. The Scotsman then had his own injury issues that took him a year to shake off. In the past year-and-a-half, Djokovic has lost twice at majors to 30-year-old Stan Wawrinka, whose overall career highlights still fall comfortably short of Lleyton Hewitt's. And finally, unlike Federer, Nole has had nothing to fear from the next generation, which so far has failed to deliver a breakthrough star.

OK, in case it's not absolutely clear, let's state it baldly: the arguments expressed above are ridiculous. Complete poppycock. As this column has stated before, there is no such thing as a weak era in professional tournament tennis and there never will be. It's as mythical as the Loch Ness Monster. There's too much money and prestige and fame involved for a weak era to be possible.

The fact is, in the early 2000s Lleyton Hewitt was the most fearsome competitor since the young Jimmy Connors, and Marat Safin was the most powerful groundstroker the sport had ever seen. These days, it's strange to see Wawrinka winning majors, but not because he isn't a great player. It's because for a long time Federer, Nadal and Djokovic -- as well as guys like Jo-Wilfried Tsonga and Nicolas Almagro, who've both beaten him at majors -- managed to keep him down. And the next generation -- from Grigor Dimitrov to Nick Kyrgios -- hasn't risen up yet not because they lack the talent and ambition of the current kings. It's simply that it is very difficult to break through against determined elders, as Djokovic found out in 2007-2010 -- and as Andre Agassi, to name just one earlier champion, found out in 1988-91.

After the 33-year-old Federer impressively ousted Andy Murray in the Wimbledon semifinals last week, former champion and current commentator John McEnroe admitted he'd erred a couple of years ago when he declared that Nadal had surpassed Federer as the greatest tennis player of all time. "I was wrong," he said.

Well, he was and he wasn't. Any time you declare the greatest player of all time you're ultimately going to be wrong. Every generation provides us with a new greatest player ever (occasionally more than one), which doesn't mean the present greatest is greater than those who came before. Because each generation stands on its own.

Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have all earned greatest of all time status, joining Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg and McEnroe, among others who were declared the greatest of all time before them.











http://www.oregonlive.com/the-spin-of-the-ball/index.ssf/2015/07/has_novak_djokovic_benefited_f.html
 
I do think Nadal probably had it harder than either in that his best years crossed between some of the very best of Federer and very best of Djokovic. I would say Nadal's peak is roughly 2007-2011, Djokovic's 2011-today, Federer's 2004-2007 and 2009. He had to chase Federer who was already at his peak for years while building to his, then having already hit his peak try to hold onto his peak as Djokovic was hitting his.

However regardless of relative to each other I dont think in the grand scheme of history either Federer or Djokovic had weak competition. The only truly weak year Federer was on top is 2006 IMO. 2015 has been weakish, and 2014 wasnt even great, so if the competition stays at this level then yes Djokovic's competition might start to look increasingly weak, but 2011-2013 was quite strong, and he also was denied alot of titles as a major contender in 2007-2010 by strong competition. I dont think in historical terms either on average is really weaker than the norm per say, atleast not yet. I dont think on the whole Sampras had tougher competition. Nor Agassi. Nor Lendl really. McEnroe, Connors, and Borg probably did. The early 70s were a mess. Before that is really murky.
 
Let's just say he has benefited from weak Fedal.

Just imagine if Roddick had that luxury.

Historically, 26 is the strongest year for a tennis player.

Just look up where he was when Djok was 26.
 
Let's just say he has benefited from weak Fedal.

Just imagine if Roddick had that luxury.

Historically, 26 is the strongest year for a tennis player.

Just look up where he was when Djok was 26.
He still wouldn't have become anywhere near as successful as Djokovic is.
 
He still wouldn't have become anywhere near as successful as Djokovic is.

oh no doubt. Djok is way better than him. But that's not the point.

Point was, Djoker, as good as he is, at his best he would be still #3 if Fedal were at their primes.

Deep down any Djok fan knows this. Fed would take care of grass and US at least and Rafa would take care of all the Dirt masters and FO.
It's not rocket science my friend.
 
oh no doubt. Djok is way better than him. But that's not the point.

Point was, Djoker, as good as he is, at his best he would be still #3 if Fedal were at their primes.

Deep down any Djok fan knows this. Fed would take care of grass and US at least and Rafa would take care of all the Dirt masters and FO.
It's not rocket science my friend.
I'm not sure I agree with you about Djokovic being 3rd actually but I really can't be bothered arguing over it.
 
oh no doubt. Djok is way better than him. But that's not the point.

Point was, Djoker, as good as he is, at his best he would be still #3 if Fedal were at their primes.

Deep down any Djok fan knows this. Fed would take care of grass and US at least and Rafa would take care of all the Dirt masters and FO.
It's not rocket science my friend.

No I don't. His best is better than Nadal, at least on par with Federer
 
@Sabratha, 90% of your posts if not more the past week have been moaning about weak era. You are a knowledgeable fan but it's getting really boring.

To be fair, @Sabratha has been busy fending himself from the massive number of Nole fans ******** about weak era to undermine Federer 2006 and the years he dominated the sport. Got to admire his courageous effort for standing his ground since he's totally outnumbered. @CYGS @ABCD @xFedal @Luiz @Achilles82 @5555 @zep @Tony48 @uliks @veroniquem @NoleFam @RF-18 @jm1980 @Djokovic2011 @Nachiket Nolefam @Djokodal Fan @user and a host of other Nole fans ranging from mild to extreme biased against Federer.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time finding neutral Nole fans around here, which is only a few like @Hitman and @Towser83
 
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Seeing as the OP's various discussions on the existence of a contemporary "weak era" in many different threads has amounted to him simply declaring it loudly and acting as if the assertion is it's own proof, I can't see any real discussion taking place here. Since everyone here struggles to even define what a weak era is and how to identify or quantify it without clumsily tripping over their own logic and/or agendas, you'll have even worse luck trying to compare the relative "weakness" of two "weak eras".

As the cited article suggests: poppycock.
 
To be fair, @Sabratha has been busy fending himself from the massive number of Nole fans ******** about weak era to undermine Federer 2006 and the years he dominated the sport. Got to admire his courageous effort for standing his ground since he's totally outnumbered. @CYGS @ABCD @xFedal @Luiz @Achilles82 @5555 @uliks @veroniquem @NoleFam @RF-18 @jm1980 @Djokovic2011 @Nachiket Nolefam @Djokodal Fan @user and a host of other Nole fans ranging from mild to extreme biased against Federer.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time finding neutral Nole fans around here, which is only a few like @Hitman and @Towser83
Sabratha is not outnumbered. On the contrary, a recent poll I posted demonstrated that there are 2 times more Federer fans on this forum than Djokovic fans. However, not everyone is prepared to troll. There are some decent people here that prefer leading constructive discussions without trolling. Sabratha posted a text you can read above counteracting everything he was saying up to this point "OK, in case it's not absolutely clear, let's state it baldly: the arguments expressed above are ridiculous. Complete poppycock. As this column has stated before, there is no such thing as a weak era in professional tournament tennis and there never will be. It's as mythical as the Loch Ness Monster. There's too much money and prestige and fame involved for a weak era to be possible". He claims all along that 2015 is a weak era to suggest now that weak eras don't exist.
 
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Seeing as the OP's various discussions on the existence of a contemporary "weak era" in many different threads has amounted to him simply declaring it loudly and acting as if the assertion is it's own proof, I can't see any real discussion taking place here. Since everyone here struggles to even define what a weak era is and how to identify or quantify it without clumsily tripping over their own logic and/or agendas, you'll have even worse luck trying to compare the relative "weakness" of two "weak eras".

As the cited article suggests: poppycock.
I've provided proof. Most of our disagreements end with you trying to convince me of something I don't find conceivable, so we disagree.

I find your posts rather lacking myself. It's mainly you chasing an agenda (anything to favor Novak) and if someone has a different mindset to you, your natural instinct is to challenge them because if someone feels differently to you, objectively there must be a catalyst for it.
 
@Sabratha, 90% of your posts if not more the past week have been moaning about weak era. You are a knowledgeable fan but it's getting really boring.
I know.

My intention when I joined this forum wasn't to talk about Novak non-stop, it was to discuss tennis, past and present and future.

I don't really agree with weak eras myself (even though I've been professing it) I just get utterly tired of Federer being undermined like @TMF has said earlier in this thread.

I am aware Novak's 2015 surpasses Federer's 2006 statically, I'd be a fool to deny it, but I don't think today is as strong as others make it out to be (others being the vast minority).

Today is probably not the weakest era ever. But it sure is not a strong era either. I'd compare it to Federer's best years (2004-2007) and 2015 is probably comparable to the weakest year of that reign, 2006.

I believe in transitional eras however, but I cannot objectively say 2015 is apart of one given how dominant Novak has been this year.
 
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Note also: I don't agree with the article. I just thought it'd be worth debunking.
 
To be fair, @Sabratha has been busy fending himself from the massive number of Nole fans ******** about weak era to undermine Federer 2006 and the years he dominated the sport. Got to admire his courageous effort for standing his ground since he's totally outnumbered. @CYGS @ABCD @xFedal @Luiz @Achilles82 @5555 @uliks @veroniquem @NoleFam @RF-18 @jm1980 @Djokovic2011 @Nachiket Nolefam @Djokodal Fan @user and a host of other Nole fans ranging from mild to extreme biased against Federer.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time finding neutral Nole fans around here, which is only a few like @Hitman and @Towser83

Why you name every Nolefam and put them in 1 sentence? TO me Sabratha is only guy moaning and ******** since the day I joined about weak era. I have not undermined any player and I am tired of this anti troll trolling. If he is so bothered, ignore option is right there.
 
To be fair, @Sabratha has been busy fending himself from the massive number of Nole fans ******** about weak era to undermine Federer 2006 and the years he dominated the sport. Got to admire his courageous effort for standing his ground since he's totally outnumbered. @CYGS @ABCD @xFedal @Luiz @Achilles82 @5555 @uliks @veroniquem @NoleFam @RF-18 @jm1980 @Djokovic2011 @Nachiket Nolefam @Djokodal Fan @user and a host of other Nole fans ranging from mild to extreme biased against Federer.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time finding neutral Nole fans around here, which is only a few like @Hitman and @Towser83
And that's pretty much the majority of Faker fans on this board. A couple others you missed...
 
He used to just subtly push the Fed agenda and undermine Djokovic. Now he's gone to just overtly attacking Novak, which is quite sad.

This just wasn't a good year for Djokovic haters.

As one of my friend said, this year absolutely put fedfans to ruins.
 
Why would it have?

17 >>> 10 still. Unless your 'friend' thinks we're all bitter about those Big 3 finals that Novak won?

We are BTW

Federer has most hardcore fans in the world. They are some good fans but also some bad fans. The huge number means the huge moaning about anything Novak does. You SHOULD be bitter about the losses, I would to when someone beats my favorite. The huge number of trolls got response with huge number of trolls from Nolefams, its totally logical reaction.

Brad Gilbert talks about fed FANATICISM
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7350042
 
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Sabratha, forgive me for calling you butthurt, but you left me no other choice. You visit one topic just to leave comment "Because this is weak era", and off you go. Now you want serious discussion about era's ?
From peak in mens tennis (2011-2012) we've came to lowest bottom (2015). o_O Is that possible at all ? I say unrealistic expectations are in progress right now. Federer can not cope with this Djokovic, because he has some mental issues - he tightens in finals of important tournaments although he plays flawless tennis up to that point. Nadal all of a sudden has lost selfbelief. Wawrinka on the other hand started to believe.
See, it's all in their heads. And this weak era talk you are pushing - it's all in your head Sabratha.
 
As one of my friend said, this year absolutely put fedfans to ruins.
Really? So in 2004-05 did Fed put Agassi fans to ruins?? No, because they knew at that point they were happy that Agassi was just out there and not on the Masters/Champions tour. A former shadow of himself but still, like Fed, competing at a decent level.
 
I see many Novak threads created by "Non Novak fans" trying to troll him.
@Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil waited for the year to end and made 1 comprehensive thread about Djokovic's achievements. Trollers are everywhere.

Half of them can't even enjoy Novak's tennis. If he bores you so much, GTFO the screen, no one is forcing you to watch any of his matches.
I was accused of cherry picking and trying to overrate Djokovic and his season. :rolleyes:
Anyone sane knows that this season doesn't need any "cherry picking" from one fan like myself to look awesome. This season is awesome even if we never bring it up again.
 
Federer has most hardcore fans in the world. They are some good fans but also some bad fans. The huge number means the huge moaning about anything Novak does. You SHOULD be bitter about the losses, I would to when someone beats my favorite. The huge number of trolls got response with huge number of trolls from Nolefams, its totally logical reaction.

Brad Gilbert talks about fed FANATICISM
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7350042

I agree there are "fans" then there are fanboys".

For me if Fed loses it sucks and disappointed for a minute but I'm just happy he is out there. I'd rather see Fed lose slam and WTF finals then own everybody in his generation on the Champions tour.
 
BTW just searching for Federer on this general pro discussion page 1 gives 12 result.
Searching for Djokovic on this general pro discussion page 1 gives 11 result.
Searching for Nadal on this general pro discussion page 1 gives 4 result.

Showing by whose name the forums are filled with.
 
To be fair, @Sabratha has been busy fending himself from the massive number of Nole fans ******** about weak era to undermine Federer 2006 and the years he dominated the sport. Got to admire his courageous effort for standing his ground since he's totally outnumbered. @CYGS @ABCD @xFedal @Luiz @Achilles82 @5555 @uliks @veroniquem @NoleFam @RF-18 @jm1980 @Djokovic2011 @Nachiket Nolefam @Djokodal Fan @user and a host of other Nole fans ranging from mild to extreme biased against Federer.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time finding neutral Nole fans around here, which is only a few like @Hitman and @Towser83
Interesting, one worshiper and deluded federer fanatic call other to continue with trolling , whining, hating,disrespecting the game undermining not only Novak but Federer himself, Nadal , Muray in fact the whole tour. It seems that becomes standard for posting style here.
Neutral fans must be also or predominate fans of Federer:rolleyes:
 
I agree there are "fans" then there are fanboys".

For me if Fed loses it sucks and disappointed for a minute but I'm just happy he is out there. I'd rather see Fed lose slam and WTF finals then own everybody in his generation on the Champions tour.

And I am happy too that he is out there. Him being there, shows it could be done by Novak as well, which I find encouraging.
 
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I see many Novak threads created by "Non Novak fans" trying to troll him.
@Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil waited for the year to end and made 1 comprehensive thread about Djokovic's achievements. Trollers are everywhere.

Half of them can't even enjoy Novak's tennis. If he bores you so much, GTFO the screen, no one is forcing you to watch any of his matches.
Yes that is true, but on the flip side of the coin, some of the accusations against Novak fans are true also.

Look for instance at a thread I had created which analyzed the adjustments a player has to make with age in order to remain successful and what this means in tight moments (using Federer and GS Final performance levels as an example). Rather than making it a constructive discussion about Federer and aging greats in general, it became a Novak centric discussion because of in large Novak fans (supposedly I was underrating him because… I don't know… I wasn't mentioning him in a thread that wasn't about him to begin with?).

There is a distinct "you against us" mentality on this forum and most Novak fans unfortunately massively contribute to this.
 
Sabratha, forgive me for calling you butthurt, but you left me no other choice. You visit one topic just to leave comment "Because this is weak era", and off you go. Now you want serious discussion about era's ?
From peak in mens tennis (2011-2012) we've came to lowest bottom (2015). o_O Is that possible at all ? I say unrealistic expectations are in progress right now. Federer can not cope with this Djokovic, because he has some mental issues - he tightens in finals of important tournaments although he plays flawless tennis up to that point. Nadal all of a sudden has lost selfbelief. Wawrinka on the other hand started to believe.
See, it's all in their heads. And this weak era talk you are pushing - it's all in your head Sabratha.
1990-1995 was one of the strongest eras ever, and it was followed by a much weaker one, which was then followed by a transitional one. All I am saying is that is what we have to look forward to.

I do think Fed and Novak are the only guys keeping the current state of tennis tolerable to some degree. Without them you would have to agree that it's a weak era. With them, it is not strong, but it's not really too weak either. I'd put it alongside Federer's 2006 season and I'm not doing that to pump up Fed or to make out like Novak is worse than he is, but this whole year I've gotten the feeling Novak is a Fed-level player. He's made it back to his 2011-results and no matter his level I have respect for that.

One thing that certainly does aggravate me is the "Fed is at his peak" talk. It's actually a huge reason why I got on the weak era bandwagon.
 
A young Nadal, young Djokovic, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Old Agassi, Gonzalez, Ljubicic is a deeper field than a broken Nadal, unconfident Murray, inconsistent Stan, mental midget Berdych, journeyman Ferrer, injured Tsonga and disappearing young guns Raonic and Dimitrov.
 
1990-1995 was one of the strongest eras ever, and it was followed by a much weaker one, which was then followed by a transitional one. All I am saying is that is what we have to look forward to.
I do think Fed and Novak are the only guys keeping the current state of tennis tolerable to some degree. Without them you would have to agree that it's a weak era. With them, it is not strong, but it's not really too weak either. I'd put it alongside Federer's 2006 season and I'm not doing that to pump up Fed or to make out like Novak is worse than he is, but this whole year I've gotten the feeling Novak is a Fed-level player. He's made it back to his 2011-results and no matter his level I have respect for that.
One thing that certainly does aggravate me is the "Fed is at his peak" talk. It's actually a huge reason why I got on the weak era bandwagon.
Well that was one calm post.
Fed is at his peak is just trolling. Maybe he is at his peak from "Roger 2011-2015 period" because of innovations he introduced to his game and being comfortable with them.
 
Not even close baby. Only this year was weak. In a way playing the big finals against 34 years old player taken a lot from this years greatness.
 
There have always been 2-4 players at any given era / time who seem to dominate, that does not make it a weak era. This will be discussed in many decades to come, people need to realize only a handful of elite will be at the top at any given time....
 
Not even close baby. Only this year was weak. In a way playing the big finals against 34 years old player taken a lot from this years greatness.
At least in this era 34 year old did not won GS like Agassi did in his days.
 
Agassi was doing it tough in his late career, getting injections after every game for his back. Fed on the other hand must be doing something right, he looks in good nick ! maybe some undetected doping :-) Agassi at this age much better than fed, oldest #1 also.
 
As one of my friend said, this year absolutely put fedfans to ruins.

It shouldn't have, really. Objectively, Djokovic is still miles away from Federer in almost every aspect. The fact they've reacted the way they did is what's indicative of a strange feeling of insecurity. Federer fans who create these kinds of threads seem to undervalue Federer more than Djokovic fans do.

Incidentally, this is what happens when you're a fan of the most accomplished player(s) in any sport: any minor accomplishments by another player who even compare to the greatest player's resumé are perceived as a stab wound to the stomach. Giants with feet of clay, so to speak.

Such displays of insecurity never happen when you're a fan of a player who's nowhere near GOAT status (thank god), like a Rafter or an Edberg. You accept he's not the greatest, you still love his game and he continues to be your favorite - no problem whatsoever.
 
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There are always going to be some h2h which would see Djoker, Fed, and Nadal being at a loss hahahaha but seriously ? it's the slams that count, if Roddick was better, or had the same drive as these players mentioned he'd have more, simple as that.
 
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