# Has USTA ever asked somebody to appeal down?

#### taydbear7

##### Rookie
I had a discussion with a teammate about a guy who got bumped but he appealed down and won. A friend told me that USTA reached out to him and asked him to appeal down. I've never heard of this. Everybody around knows he appealed down so he can play mixed doubles with his girlfriend.

Does it matter?

#### taydbear7

##### Rookie
Does it matter?
He already won two matches and two tournaments so yeah I would say it matters.

#### Cashman

##### Hall of Fame
He appealed down and the appeal was successful. Obsessing over his motive is pointless and irrelevant.

If he’s really that good he’ll be bumped up soon enough anyway.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
He already won two matches and two tournaments so yeah I would say it matters.
Well, someone had to win those tournaments, right? I mean, if it wasn't him, it would be someone else, and then you'd have to complain about that other person sandbagging. Unless of course that other person now winning was you

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
The USTA does not “reach out” to rec players and ask them to do anything. The rating numbers are entirely computer generated. There is no “man behind the curtain” that is manipulating things. If this guy appealed down, it was because he requested to do so himself and he was mathematically within the appeal range. The USTA probably has someone do a bird’s eye view look over the ratings broadly to assure the rating algorithm worked. But that’s about it.

If the guy wanted to play mixed with his wife, he may have asked someone at the local league office and they advised him to try an appeal down. But no one from any USTA office cares enough to reach out and ask players to appeal. Why would they?

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
The USTA does not “reach out” to rec players and ask them to do anything. The rating numbers are entirely computer generated. There is no “man behind the curtain” that is manipulating things. If this guy appealed down, it was because he requested to do so himself and he was mathematically within the appeal range. The USTA probably has someone do a bird’s eye view look over the ratings broadly to assure the rating algorithm worked. But that’s about it.

If the guy wanted to play mixed with his wife, he may have asked someone at the local league office and they advised him to try an appeal down. But no one from any USTA office cares enough to reach out and ask players to appeal. Why would they?
I've heard a rumor from several very reliable sources that the USTA national organization, as part of their budget cuts, are going to reduce their grants to the sections, and also change the formula for those distributions. Basically, the allocation of money will now be 'performance based', which will be measured by how well each section does at Nationals. So of course now each section will want to do as well as possible and staff bonuses are at stake. As a result regional USTA staff are reaching out to all players within the appeal threshold to get them to appeal down. Also, regional staff are helping captains recruit new self-rated talent. In some sections, regional staff are holding recruiting drives on campus, with D1 players being especially targeted in order to bolster 4.0 level rosters.

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
I've heard a rumor from several very reliable sources that the USTA national organization, as part of their budget cuts, are going to reduce their grants to the sections, and also change the formula for those distributions. Basically, the allocation of money will now be 'performance based', which will be measured by how well each section does at Nationals. So of course now each section will want to do as well as possible and staff bonuses are at stake. As a result regional USTA staff are reaching out to all players within the appeal threshold to get them to appeal down. Also, regional staff are helping captains recruit new self-rated talent. In some sections, regional staff are holding recruiting drives on campus, with D1 players being especially targeted in order to bolster 4.0 level rosters.
While absolutely untrue, that is some epic cut throat Game of Thrones level drama and I totally wish it was true. Determining USTA teaching pro salaries by how well their adult rec players perform at nationals would send chills down the spine of every club staff in America. Bravo my friend.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
While absolutely untrue, that is some epic cut throat Game of Thrones level drama and I totally wish it was true. Determining USTA teaching pro salaries by how well their adult rec players perform at nationals would send chills down the spine of every club staff in America. Bravo my friend.
Yeah but I heard it from *very reliable sources*!
Now you've spoiled the fun. I was hoping to see how many would bite and think it totally explains the prevalence of local sandbaggers.

#### OnTheLine

##### Hall of Fame
Yeah but I heard it from *very reliable sources*!
Now you've spoiled the fun. I was hoping to see how many would bite and think it totally explains the prevalence of local sandbaggers.
If you hadn't given up so early, someone would have bit and the thread could be epic.

#### ttwarrior1

##### Professional
i have a guy that hasnt played in ten years, he didn't even play college tennis as he pursued something else and he had to do a written appeal, not sure how long that takes, but he is 4.0 but has him at 4.5 , his rank of 12 years ago

#### ATX Tennis

##### New User
Nationals next year will be fun. Ratings are frozen from this year so plenty of above range players in each rating group.

#### mnttlrg

##### Professional
I have had a few guys on my team who self-rated as 4.0 and clearly weren't, and asking the USTA about moving them down was not productive. I'm not even sure what exists for that, but I think it's 100% on the player to jump through those hoops.

I also had an old neighbor who quit USTA because he was stuck at 4.5 and had declined as a player. He said they wouldn't let him move down.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
I also had an old neighbor who quit USTA because he was stuck at 4.5 and had declined as a player. He said they wouldn't let him move down.
I have a friend who was in the same boat. Long time 4.0 player who got moved up to 4.5 in his late 50's after an especially good 4.0 season playing with a self-rate. Really had no business at 4.5 but appeal down was denied. And could not get playing time on a 4.5 team to have the computer bump him back down. So he just quit USTA and then unfortunately lost interest in tennis completely a year or two later and now no longer plays at all.

I don't have a good solution but it was sad to see a friend who at one point was very passionate about tennis just get so despondent and quit.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
I have a friend who was in the same boat. Long time 4.0 player who got moved up to 4.5 in his late 50's after an especially good 4.0 season playing with a self-rate. Really had no business at 4.5 but appeal down was denied. And could not get playing time on a 4.5 team to have the computer bump him back down. So he just quit USTA and then unfortunately lost interest in tennis completely a year or two later and now no longer plays at all.

I don't have a good solution but it was sad to see a friend who at one point was very passionate about tennis just get so despondent and quit.
The solution is UTR.

USTA’s rating system is inherently flawed & archaic. They wont fix it otherwise they would’ve already. And too be fair, most people whom support USTA dont think it’s broken.

All the people that avoid USTA are a silent group for the most part. Lost revenue & participation that’s impossible to quantify but obvious to see when most tournaments have so few 3.0 & 3.5 entries.

#### Doan

##### Rookie
The solution is UTR.

USTA’s rating system is inherently flawed & archaic. They wont fix it otherwise they would’ve already. And too be fair, most people whom support USTA dont think it’s broken.

All the people that avoid USTA are a silent group for the most part. Lost revenue & participation that’s impossible to quantify but obvious to see when most tournaments have so few 3.0 & 3.5 entries.
Sounds like the 50+ 4.5C guy wanted to play on a team which UTR doesn't have.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
Sounds like the 50+ 4.5C guy wanted to play on a team which UTR doesn't have.
True. UTR still has much to be desired. No rulebook for instance.

But they do have a league format. It’s up to locals to adopt in and run leagues if they so choose.

USTA is so established and UTR is so loosey goosey. Gonna be hard to gain traction quickly that way.

#### brettatk

##### Semi-Pro
Nationals next year will be fun. Ratings are frozen from this year so plenty of above range players in each rating group.
How do you know ratings are frozen this year? Has there been a release from USTA that I missed?

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
I've heard a rumor from several very reliable sources that the USTA national organization, as part of their budget cuts, are going to reduce their grants to the sections, and also change the formula for those distributions. Basically, the allocation of money will now be 'performance based', which will be measured by how well each section does at Nationals. So of course now each section will want to do as well as possible and staff bonuses are at stake. As a result regional USTA staff are reaching out to all players within the appeal threshold to get them to appeal down. Also, regional staff are helping captains recruit new self-rated talent. In some sections, regional staff are holding recruiting drives on campus, with D1 players being especially targeted in order to bolster 4.0 level rosters.
Interesting. So the USTA is incentivized to sandbag at the systemic level. My section has historically already been very good at this (based on ntrp national titles per capita).

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
The solution is UTR.
There is no evidence that UTR is any more valid or useful than the USTA’s rating system. Both can have sandbaggers, ratings manipulation, etc. Any rating system can be gamed. If this isn’t happening with UTR yet, it’s only because so few people use UTR or care about it.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
There is no evidence that UTR is any more valid or useful than the USTA’s rating system. Both can have sandbaggers, ratings manipulation, etc. Any rating system can be gamed. If this isn’t happening with UTR yet, it’s only because so few people use UTR or care about it.
There’s is clear evidence. It’s a dynamic rating system that is constantly updating.

USTA’s is not.

One is clearly better than the other at policing sandbagging.

The guy who trains for two years to then go enter USTA 3.0 doesnt get policed. A year of damage is done. Next year, rinse & repeat.

UTR? They’d get bumped up within days of their first competition. It’d be but a few events before they were with their proper grouping.

UTR has it’s flaws. The rating system isnt one of them. It’s lightyears ahead of USTA.

#### ATX Tennis

##### New User
How do you know ratings are frozen this year? Has there been a release from USTA that I missed?
Local coordinator says it's in the voting stage and looks very likely. I don't know any of the details, like will self rates become C rated, but they won't be updating year-end ratings this year.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
Also, look at the match scores. In UTR they’re usually very close.

There’s nothing close about a low 4.0 and a high 4.0 yet they get paired with each other in the first round. But by definition, the high 4.0 should win easily. And more often than not, it’s not a high 4.0 but a low 4.5 that has gamed the system.

Whatever the case... i got my gripes with UTR. Been to a few events, haven’t seen any sandbagging. Never been to a USTA tourney where it wasn’t blatant.

Biggest complaint about the UTR ratings I’ve witnessed firsthand? A friend was upset their UTR was so low and they were paired with low level players. They were mad because they lost all their matches. LOL. I also know this person to have entered in USTA tourneys anywhere from 3.0 to 4.0 within the same 24 months. I was quite amused at their frustration with their UTR experience. I found it poetic justice.

There’s no faking your UTR. You are what you earn.

#### brettatk

##### Semi-Pro
Local coordinator says it's in the voting stage and looks very likely. I don't know any of the details, like will self rates become C rated, but they won't be updating year-end ratings this year.
Interesting. Would this be for everybody or would each Section decide what they want to do? We are about to start our 18+ and 40+ season in a few weeks. Would love to be able to tell everyone that while these matches will count towards qualifying for State, they will not count towards your rating. That sounds crazy to even say.

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#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
The guy who trains for two years to then go enter USTA 3.0 doesnt get policed. A year of damage is done. Next year, rinse & repeat.
So if a UTR league formed for players with a UTR from 5.0 to 5.9, you don’t think guys with 6.0 UTR ratings would throw a few games to get in that league? Lol. Get real.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
So if a UTR league formed for players with a UTR from 5.0 to 5.9, you don’t think guys with 6.0 UTR ratings would throw a few games to get in that league? Lol. Get real.
They’d get bounced from the league as soon as they started dominating.

If they started dominating. The difference between a UTR 5 & 6 isnt that much. The matches would be close. Occasionally the 5’s beat the 6’s. It’s nowhere near the divide that exists between a low 3.5 and high 3.5

#### ATX Tennis

##### New User
Interesting. Would this be for everybody or would each Section decide what they want to do? We are about to start our 18+ and 40+ season in a few weeks. Would love to be able to tell everyone that while these matches will count towards qualifying for State, they will not count towards your rating. That sounds crazy to even say.
Sounded like a national vote, so I’m sure it would apply universally. Any section that actually had USTA run new ratings would be at a huge disadvantage next year.

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
They’d get bounced from the league as soon as they started dominating.

If they started dominating. The difference between a UTR 5 & 6 isnt that much. The matches would be close. Occasionally the 5’s beat the 6’s. It’s nowhere near the divide that exists between a low 3.5 and high 3.5
But they are sandbaggers, so they would purposefully not be dominating. They would win consistently, but only by just enough - just like they do in USTA. If a sandbagger is dominating in USTA, they get bumped up. It would be no different in a UTR league.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
But they are sandbaggers, so they would purposefully not be dominating. They would win consistently, but only by just enough - just like they do in USTA. If a sandbagger is dominating in USTA, they get bumped up. It would be no different in a UTR league.
You cant petition back down in UTR. You’d have to lose matches.

And USTA only bumps up a year’s worth of damage is done. And that’s if they bump someone up. I’ve seen players that didn’t pass the eteball test of what a 4.0 is at all, looked up their records, seen they’d rarely lost in previous 2 years. And also are former 4.5’s that Im guessing petitioned down because their 4.5 record was average.

The complaints I’ve heard about UTR ratings is usually that a person wants their ranking higher. And i see USTA players usually playing at a level 0.5 below their true skill level.

I think one reason many USTA players avoid the UTR is because they cant gane the system as easily.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
You cant petition back down in UTR. You’d have to lose matches.

And USTA only bumps up a year’s worth of damage is done. And that’s if they bump someone up. I’ve seen players that didn’t pass the eteball test of what a 4.0 is at all, looked up their records, seen they’d rarely lost in previous 2 years. And also are former 4.5’s that Im guessing petitioned down because their 4.5 record was average.

The complaints I’ve heard about UTR ratings is usually that a person wants their ranking higher. And i see USTA players usually playing at a level 0.5 below their true skill level.

I think one reason many USTA players avoid the UTR is because they cant gane the system as easily.
UTR ratings change daily, whereas published USTA ratings change only once a year. I think this makes them suitable for different things:

UTR is great for tournaments. You have to be in a certain UTR range at the time you register for the tournament. For the next tournament, you might be in a different range, based on results. This is kinda like how ATP pros get direct entry into tournaments based on their ranking at a specific date prior to the tournament.

USTA works well for team play, where you need some ratings stability for a group of players over a period of time. If ratings were to change over a season making some players ineligible for the level they were on, it makes the captain's job almost impossible.

(Yes this already happens with self-rated players who can get DQ'd, but this does not happen frequently, does no impact a large number of players on the roster, and the captain knows there is a risk associated with self-rated players.)

I can't imagine the logistics involved running a team over a season using UTR, where eligibility is constantly being re-determined using up to date UTR. On the other hand if you allow a player to remain on a team for the duration of a season based on the UTR at the start of the season, then it's no different to USTA in terms of potential for sandbagging etc.

#### 2ndServe

##### Hall of Fame
Nationals next year will be fun. Ratings are frozen from this year so plenty of above range players in each rating group.
are you sure about this? There is no bump up or down this year? We've got sectionals in a few months and nobody wants to play for fear of getting a bump up with no nationals to play for

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
You cant petition back down in UTR. You’d have to lose matches.
But that is exactly what sandbagging is. There is virtually no sandbagging in USTA as a result of the appeals process. Any USTA sandbagging is by virtue of throwing games in spring adult matches to come in under a threshold. The elite combo teams are built by throwing games/matches in adult spring league, not by rating appeals. The exact same thing would happen in any league, including UTR.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
But that is exactly what sandbagging is. There is virtually no sandbagging in USTA as a result of the appeals process. Any USTA sandbagging is by virtue of throwing games in spring adult matches to come in under a threshold. The elite combo teams are built by throwing games/matches in adult spring league, not by rating appeals. The exact same thing would happen in any league, including UTR.
I play tournaments. So naturally, I’ve seen more USTA sandbagging in the form of the appeals process. And in the examples I’ve witnessed where people play in tournaments at lower ratings than what they play in leagues.

It appears most on these forums play league, so the sandbagging is more along the lines of what you’re describing. It seems that with leagues, there are captains & overall a lot more people willing to address issues when they see them. At tourneys, it’s just the weekend, the tourney directors dont care that much, and nobody has any backup or pull to file a complaint with.

That might play a large part of our disconnect on this issue.

I’ve done some UTR tourneys. Witnessed ZERO sandbagging. Fair & close competition. I credit the dynamic ratings system and the fact that it is incentivized to get you score higher. They could easily figure out a way to do that for league play. Something USTA cant/wont do because players like settling into where they’re comfortable and then they stay there forever. Unless they need to game the system because they’re worried about getting bumped up.

At a shallow glance... USTA could solve their problem with this by making a few tweaks:

1. Dynamic rating system that moves people up in real time
2. Automatically bumping up every team that qualifies for Nationals the following year
3. Get rid of the appeals down process. It’s abuse chases away more players than it saves

#### OnTheLine

##### Hall of Fame
I play tournaments. So naturally, I’ve seen more USTA sandbagging in the form of the appeals process. And in the examples I’ve witnessed where people play in tournaments at lower ratings than what they play in leagues.
You would have to elaborate on this statement to have it make sense.

If someone is for example a 3.5C they can play no lower than their rating. They can play up at 4.0 league and then play 3.5 in a tournament . So you may find someone who does play in 4.0 leagues but is legitimately a 3.5.

Some tournament directors will not allow a player to play above their rating level.

And some tournament directors will combine rating levels to fill out a draw ... usually throwing the 3.5s and 4.0s together.

If however someone is a 4.0C, T, A or S, and they play 4.0 league they cannot enter a tournament as a 3.5 ... just can't.

#### ATX Tennis

##### New User
are you sure about this? There is no bump up or down this year? We've got sectionals in a few months and nobody wants to play for fear of getting a bump up with no nationals to play for
An official announcement should come out at some point, but that is what I am hearing.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
You would have to elaborate on this statement to have it make sense.

If someone is for example a 3.5C they can play no lower than their rating. They can play up at 4.0 league and then play 3.5 in a tournament . So you may find someone who does play in 4.0 leagues but is legitimately a 3.5.

Some tournament directors will not allow a player to play above their rating level.

And some tournament directors will combine rating levels to fill out a draw ... usually throwing the 3.5s and 4.0s together.

If however someone is a 4.0C, T, A or S, and they play 4.0 league they cannot enter a tournament as a 3.5 ... just can't.
I was never big into USTA tournaments and was primarily a league player, but my own personal observation was that if anything the level of competition was not as high in tournaments. The strongest players at level mostly stuck to league, and tournaments were populated mostly by weaker payers at level, players playing up, and dubs players trying their luck at singles. Obviously this is just a personal observation in one section, so maybe it's different elsewhere.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
You would have to elaborate on this statement to have it make sense.

If someone is for example a 3.5C they can play no lower than their rating. They can play up at 4.0 league and then play 3.5 in a tournament . So you may find someone who does play in 4.0 leagues but is legitimately a 3.5.
This example. Exactly. Except they’re not legitimate 3.5’s unless you count their computer rating as legitimate. Which it isnt if they self rated or appealed down.

They play 4.0 league. The win half their matches. They’ve got years of experience. They’re quality players who’d be bored or shamed for playing 3.5 in their local league.

They enter what they can get away with at tournaments. I’ve seen it at 3.0, 3.5, 4.0

These were not issues with trying to fill out a draw. This was players gaming the system for a \$5 plastic trophy.

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
I play tournaments. So naturally, I’ve seen more USTA sandbagging in the form of the appeals process. And in the examples I’ve witnessed where people play in tournaments at lower ratings than what they play in leagues.

It appears most on these forums play league, so the sandbagging is more along the lines of what you’re describing. It seems that with leagues, there are captains & overall a lot more people willing to address issues when they see them. At tourneys, it’s just the weekend, the tourney directors dont care that much, and nobody has any backup or pull to file a complaint with.

That might play a large part of our disconnect on this issue.

I’ve done some UTR tourneys. Witnessed ZERO sandbagging. Fair & close competition. I credit the dynamic ratings system and the fact that it is incentivized to get you score higher. They could easily figure out a way to do that for league play. Something USTA cant/wont do because players like settling into where they’re comfortable and then they stay there forever. Unless they need to game the system because they’re worried about getting bumped up.

At a shallow glance... USTA could solve their problem with this by making a few tweaks:

1. Dynamic rating system that moves people up in real time
2. Automatically bumping up every team that qualifies for Nationals the following year
3. Get rid of the appeals down process. It’s abuse chases away more players than it saves
I was never big into USTA tournaments and was primarily a league player, but my own personal observation was that if anything the level of competition was not as high in tournaments. The strongest players at level mostly stuck to league, and tournaments were populated mostly by weaker payers at level, players playing up, and dubs players trying their luck at singles. Obviously this is just a personal observation in one section, so maybe it's different elsewhere.
My experience is that in USTA tournaments people “play up”. Meaning if you sign up for the 4.0 draw, you are likely to get a bunch of 3.5 opponents playing up for the chance to play better players. In addition, stronger players at level have no need to play tournaments because their tennis card is already full, being in high demand for league play.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
My experience is that in USTA tournaments people “play up”. Meaning if you sign up for the 4.0 draw, you are likely to get a bunch of 3.5 opponents playing up for the chance to play better players. In addition, stronger players at level have no need to play tournaments because their tennis card is already full, being in high demand for league play.
Yeah. So vastly different experiences. Thus totally different perspectives.

Everyone i know, plays casual drop in.

Most people I now know, play leagues.

Next to none of them play tournaments. I play tourneys because it’s what’s available to me. Every time I’ve been asked to play league, it was a captain looking to hide me on their roster and sandbag (of which I want no part of). I don’t know a lotta people nor do i understand the league stuff much. The USTA tourney players in my area are kinda their own breed. But they typically play league also.

Im tired of the typical USTA crap. Got lucky and discovered some well run UTR events locally. And that’s where I go for sanctioned play. Less drama, more bang for my buck.

The most fun competition tho? I got a small rotation of players from 4.5, 5.0, and a 6.0 ... I pay them for a “lesson”. 5 set match. All out. They finish me in under an hour they keep all the \$. I extend it past an hour I earned the free court time. And at the end they gotta give me a few tips to work on.

I end up playing my best tennis. There is no BS. And I learn a thing or two.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
The most fun competition tho? I got a small rotation of players from 4.5, 5.0, and a 6.0 ... I pay them for a “lesson”. 5 set match. All out. They finish me in under an hour they keep all the \$. I extend it past an hour I earned the free court time. And at the end they gotta give me a few tips to work on.
What's your level? I ask because I'm a decent 4.5 and yet I would get nothing out of playing a 6.0 if he is playing all out.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
What's your level? I ask because I'm a decent 4.5 and yet I would get nothing out of playing a 6.0 if he is playing all out.
Im a unique case. I have a 5.0 level serve so I can hold my own in that regard. Excellent athleticism. Mentally strong.

I haven’t won a set yet but I win games and have nearly won a set versus the 6.0 ... it’s a matter of this: can I extend the match long enough that fatigue begins to play a role. In the first set it’s a predictable blowout. He’s half my age, a exceptional physical specimen, and way more skilled. But 60 minutes in he inevitably starts to fatigue and isnt the exact same player (more UEs, mental mistakes, etc). Whereas Im the same person in the first minute as the 61st. Im nowhere near his level but my understanding of nutrition is a great equalizer, if I can make the match last long enough for it to be a factor.

He’s a very good teacher. So his advice afterwards is excellent. Worth every penny. But just damn fun to play such a hard opponent. My goal at the moment is to get the match to 2 hours long. In the intense summer heat. That would be a huge accomplishment.

#### Chalkdust

##### Rookie
Im a unique case. I have a 5.0 level serve so I can hold my own in that regard. Excellent athleticism. Mentally strong.

I haven’t won a set yet but I win games and have nearly won a set versus the 6.0 ... it’s a matter of this: can I extend the match long enough that fatigue begins to play a role. In the first set it’s a predictable blowout. He’s half my age, a exceptional physical specimen, and way more skilled. But 60 minutes in he inevitably starts to fatigue and isnt the exact same player (more UEs, mental mistakes, etc). Whereas Im the same person in the first minute as the 61st. Im nowhere near his level but my understanding of nutrition is a great equalizer, if I can make the match last long enough for it to be a factor.

He’s a very good teacher. So his advice afterwards is excellent. Worth every penny. But just damn fun to play such a hard opponent. My goal at the moment is to get the match to 2 hours long. In the intense summer heat. That would be a huge accomplishment.
A 5.0 would not take a game off a 6.0. So either the rest of your game is much better than your serve, or your 6.0 isn't a 6.0, or he's not really trying.

#### R1FF

##### Professional
A 5.0 would not take a game off a 6.0. So either the rest of your game is much better than your serve, or your 6.0 isn't a 6.0, or he's not really trying.
Predictable response.

His UTR is 12.4 ... and yes, he was trying. But fatigue makes mortals of us all.

His response after our first match was, “the #1 thing you have going for you is your confidence. I couldn’t break you at any point. You just kept coming and it wears on players”. If im able to convey anything on these boards it’s my arrogance. So I think at least that much would come across as credible LOL.

The other thing he complimented was my side to side court coverage. Despite his power advantage, i could get to every ball and also was anticipating his patrerns well.

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#### R1FF

##### Professional
A 5.0 would not take a game off a 6.0.
Correct. The average 5.0 would not. Not in the first set. And not certainly at all if they were to lose confidence or get demoralized at any point in the match.

If I was training that 5.0, they’d likely win by simply being able to extend the match much longer than I can.

99% of athletes cannot hold their exertion at its peak for much longer than 45 minutes. Then there is a steady decline. And at 90 minutes a sharp decline. Cognitive ability drops with it. If both athletes decline at the same rate, which in most cases occurs, the decline isn’t noticeable at all.

If the 5.0 was still fresh at 90 minutes and the 6.0 was heavily fatigued, you’d see the match flip heavily in the 5.0’s favor. But this isn’t something you can easily reference or likely have seen, since ketogenic athletes are a very new science that few have fully explored. Skepticism is warranted.

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#### R1FF

##### Professional
And I realize this comes across as crazy talk. I do my best to articulate the uniqueness of what Im describing. I realize most will get lost in translation or just sound like hyperbole. Oh well.

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
Im a unique case. I have a 5.0 level serve so I can hold my own in that regard. Excellent athleticism. Mentally strong.
Lol. Somebody get me my wading gear. It’s getting deep in here.

#### 2ndServe

##### Hall of Fame
Nationals next year will be fun. Ratings are frozen from this year so plenty of above range players in each rating group.
I've not heard anything like this from any captain or league coordinator

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
Ratings are frozen from this year so plenty of above range players in each rating group.
Why would ratings being frozen from this year result in plenty of above range players in each rating group?

#### OnTheLine

##### Hall of Fame
Why would ratings being frozen from this year result in plenty of above range players in each rating group?
Um, perhaps I am missing some nuance, but if rating are frozen then those who had crossed the threshold of improvement will not be bumped up.

Now conversely, if frozen, those who should be bumped down will also remain in that rating group .... so each rating may have both a lower bottom-end and a higher top-end.

Those of us in the middle will continue to muddle along as best we can.

#### Moveforwardalways

##### Hall of Fame
Um, perhaps I am missing some nuance, but if rating are frozen then those who had crossed the threshold of improvement will not be bumped up.

Now conversely, if frozen, those who should be bumped down will also remain in that rating group .... so each rating may have both a lower bottom-end and a higher top-end.

Those of us in the middle will continue to muddle along as best we can.
I guess I don’t understand why, if ratings were frozen, that next year would be any different than this year would have been. Some people will improve, sure, but no one will be getting bumped down into a new lower league either. Seems like a wash.