Have Nadal and Djokovic had greater competition in slams than Federer?

Have Nadal and Djokovic has greater slam competition than Federer?


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The Guru

Hall of Fame
You're such an intellectual nutcase, so enigmatic.
Lol you're just going to throw that out there as a lone statement. I think it's pretty clear that this has always been my stance so I'm not sure what's so mysterious or difficult to understand about my statements there. As far as being a nutcase well I'm gonna have to disagree with that one lol.
 
Anyway, Federer had the meaningfully tougher competition because he lost the most close matches to strong comp, while winning the most dominant matches vs weaker comp (other than RGdal of course). If his competition was more level he could stand to win a lot more, as his best competition would be worse allowing him to win instead of losing closely, and his worst competition, while improved, would still not be good enough to defeat him. It doesn't matter if you swap 2006 USO Roddick and 2015 USO Federer, 2006 USO Federer beats either and so does 2015 USO Djokovic. It does matter if you swap 2008 WB Nadal and any older Fedal version Djokovic faced at WB.
 

The Guru

Hall of Fame
Anyway, Federer had the meaningfully tougher competition because he lost the most close matches to strong comp, while winning the most dominant matches vs weaker comp (other than RGdal of course). If his competition was more level he could stand to win a lot more, as his best competition would be worse allowing him to win instead of losing closely, and his worst competition, while improved, would still not be good enough to defeat him. It doesn't matter if you swap 2006 USO Roddick and 2015 USO Federer, 2006 USO Federer beats either and so does 2015 USO Djokovic. It does matter if you swap 2008 WB Nadal and any older Fedal version Djokovic faced at WB.
This is the Fed fan argument that appeals to me the most and it's rarely made. Instead it's the constant eye test says inferior players that Fed faced are way better than the superior players that Djokodal faced nonsense. I'm happy you took this route instead because I think you can make a strong case for it.
 

ElisRF

Professional
Anyway, Federer had the meaningfully tougher competition because he lost the most close matches to strong comp, while winning the most dominant matches vs weaker comp (other than RGdal of course). If his competition was more level he could stand to win a lot more, as his best competition would be worse allowing him to win instead of losing closely, and his worst competition, while improved, would still not be good enough to defeat him. It doesn't matter if you swap 2006 USO Roddick and 2015 USO Federer, 2006 USO Federer beats either and so does 2015 USO Djokovic. It does matter if you swap 2008 WB Nadal and any older Fedal version Djokovic faced at WB.
Faced nearly every peak version of Djokovic and Nadal well.

In slams and the YEC only missing Nadal at the USO.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Djokovic had it easy in 14/15? Really? Wawrinka at AO? Nadal at RG? Tsonga/Cilic/Dimi/Fed at W? USO was easy but he lost. Murray/Wawrinka at AO? Nadal(Bad as he was)/Murray/Wawa at RG? Fed at W/USO? That's easy? I'm sorry but calling that easy is trolling. That's nothing like the last couple years.
And Federer had it easy in 2004-2005? His paths to his major titles were also as tough if not even tougher than Djokovic's in some respects. You can't have it both ways.

There's some truth to this but Nadal especially would feast on that time and add tons of weeks at 1 which he currently lacks.
Sure, but he'd still have trouble winning on HC and only Wimb 2002 would be open. And I think Kuerten would be fairly difficult at RG in 2000 and 2001. But yeah, he'd do very well overall.

Achieved more does not equal better. Isn't that the Fed fan motto? Plus Lost Gen is not done achieving things so that's clearly an unfair comparison. Regardless, they are very comparable and no one ever talks about how Fed had an insanely weak older gen that he didn't even have to overthrow because they never even ascended (Guga excluded). It's just insanely hypocritical that like the number one topic Fed fans like to talk about is how **** the younger gens are and never acknowledge how bad transiton gen was.
Obviously, transition gen was bad, but not worse than the Lost Gen on HC/grass, which is the point I was trying to make. So Federer still didn't have a generation as weak as the Lost Gen.

And besides, Federer was on the rise so he would have had an easier time adapting to the Transition Gen than Djokodal being in their 30's adapting to better younger opponents. Still, Agassi, while not from the preceding generation, was more than good enough to give Fed a challenge from a previous gen.

The complaining about Lost/Next Gen is nonstop, over the top, and incredibly annoying. Literally any time one of them plays there's a barrage of Fed fans insulting them and you literally never here about transtion Gen not even from Djokodal fans. The hypocrisy on this is obvious and honestly if you have any shred of honesty in this debate you'd acknowledge it.
I did acknowledge it.

The thing is, I don't blame the Fed fans. After over a decade of weak era accusations from the Djokodal fans, it's only fair that they dish it back. Par for the course.

Sure people don't assign 05-07 to Nadal but the gap there is 5 slams and 8 for Novak (much more significant) and also Nadal's slams were less weak as he went through Peak Fed to get them. Also I don't consider 07 weak outside the AO anyway. So it's really just two of Nadal's slams both of which he won going through Peak Fed so that's why it's never brought up.
Well, Fed's win at AO 2017 also wasn't weak, so it's only really 2 slams for him, not 3. And if people excuse Nadal by choosing particular slams from that era that they view as strong, well, same thing can be done for Fed, but people never do it. All of his slams are thrown in the weak era dumpster by default.

Again the gap across the last four years is just 2-3 slams so it shouldn't be the deciding factor in who has had harder competition.
Well, compare how many slams Federer won at 30-34 vs how many Djokodal have won.

You also have to take into account that it's far tougher for Federer at his age to inflate his resume the way Djokodal have. He is at a far bigger age disadvantage than Nadal in 2005-2007 and it's not even close.

Of course, Fed having to win by far the toughest slam out of all 3 of them at age 38 is also ridiculously unfair. Djokodal have won easier slams after easier slams, but Fed had to beat both at 38? I call BS on that.

If you think it's borderline impossible to make the case for Nadovic then surely you must believe there's a case for Federer no? Or is the only possible option that they are like exactly tied.
In my book, they are tied in this department. This ain't 2013 anymore when it made more sense to make a case for them.
 
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At any rate, what really matters is the number of weak level slams we can discount when measuring greatness, where Fedalovic currently stand at 2 each. So much depends on how convincing their wins are going forward.
 

ElisRF

Professional
This is the Fed fan argument that appeals to me the most and it's rarely made. Instead it's the constant eye test says inferior players that Fed faced are way better than the superior players that Djokodal faced nonsense. I'm happy you took this route instead because I think you can make a strong case for it.
When Federer fans use that eye test they still admit that Djokovic and Nadal had it tougher in earlier years like say 2011-13.

Were as Djokovic and Nadal fan ( the bad not all) trash not only the whole of 2003-07 but nearly every legit Federer win even after that.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I’d say yes because 1985-1989 (Djokodals gen) was stronger than 1980-1984 (Fed’s gen).

Also, in terms of slams won beating a big 3 member en route, Nadal and Djokovic double Fed in this aspect

This isn’t the end all be all in the GOAT debate but isn’t it a consensus that Djokodal have beaten tougher rivals than Fed throughout their careers
This is exactly the type of one dimensional view I am talking about.

Djokovic by default gets to beat up on the big 3 more often because he isn't at an age disadvantage compared to Federer. Of course he gets to inflate this stat by 10 folds because he gets to face old Fed while being 6 years younger. He also got to face a crap Nadal 7 times in a row during his worse phase. Fed hasn't had any of these privileges.

As for tougher rivals, I guess USO 2010/USO 2013 are tougher wins than Wimb 2004/Wimb 2009, no?

You're not even gonna acknowledge that Fed played the 1985-1989 gen as often as Djokodal and he also played his own generation + Agassi, which Djokodal haven't to the same degree.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Djokovic won lots of slams when Federer can be said to have declined as well so it’s a double sword and Nadal many of them on the weakest surface on the other two so it is a double sword.

And of course Wimbledon 2007 doesn’t count as a peak Nadal somehow.
Of course it does, I've said many times that was probably the best win of Federer's career. But its one major. Out of 20.

As for the top point, a declined Federer is still leagues ahead of an Enlightened Roddick, Hewitt, or Safin, let alone Philippousis, Baghdatis, and Gonzalez.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Anyway, Federer had the meaningfully tougher competition because he lost the most close matches to strong comp, while winning the most dominant matches vs weaker comp (other than RGdal of course). If his competition was more level he could stand to win a lot more, as his best competition would be worse allowing him to win instead of losing closely, and his worst competition, while improved, would still not be good enough to defeat him. It doesn't matter if you swap 2006 USO Roddick and 2015 USO Federer, 2006 USO Federer beats either and so does 2015 USO Djokovic. It does matter if you swap 2008 WB Nadal and any older Fedal version Djokovic faced at WB.
I'll add that Federer at 27 was up against much tougher competition than Nadal at 27. Facing 2008 Nadal is tougher than facing 2013 Djokovic. Give 2008 Fed 2013 Djokovic and he wins 2 slams and finishes YE#1.
 

ElisRF

Professional
Of course it does, I've said many times that was probably the best win of Federer's career. But its one major. Out of 20.

As for the top point, a declined Federer is still leagues ahead of an Enlightened Roddick, Hewitt, or Safin, let alone Philippousis, Baghdatis, and Gonzalez.
Scud and Baghdatis and Gonzalez were not the main rivals of Federer and nor was Safin.

And of course you would just look at names and not look at what happened on the day......
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Faced nearly every peak version of Djokovic and Nadal well.

In slams and the YEC only missing Nadal at the USO.
Good point.

Fed has indeed faced every version of Djokodal that exists, while Djokovic hasn't faced 2004-2006 Fed.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
This is the Fed fan argument that appeals to me the most and it's rarely made. Instead it's the constant eye test says inferior players that Fed faced are way better than the superior players that Djokodal faced nonsense. I'm happy you took this route instead because I think you can make a strong case for it.
Another argument that isn't made:

Fed has faced every version of Djokodal that exists, while Djokovic hasn't faced 2004-2006 Fed.

So how is it established that Djokodal have had it the toughest exactly? :unsure:
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Scud and Baghdatis and Gonzalez were not the main rivals of Federer and nor was Safin.

And of course you would just look at names and not look at what happened on the day......
Sure I would, but do you want me to engage in essay format argumentation with you on a forum? We're not there yet bud.

For now I'll content myself with saying that the versions of Federer and Nadal Nole faced at Wimbers were tougher, in some cases, much tougher, than the versions of Roddick and Nadal that Federer beat at Wimbledon, with just 2011 Nadal v 2007 Rafa being the only one in question.
 

ElisRF

Professional
Sure I would, but do you want me to engage in essay format argumentation with you on a forum? We're not there yet bud.

For now I'll content myself with saying that the versions of Federer and Nadal Nole faced at Wimbers were tougher, in some cases, much tougher, than the versions of Roddick and Nadal that Federer beat at Wimbledon, with just 2011 Nadal v 2007 Rafa being the only one in question.
[/QUOTE
Nothing suggests that Federer of Wimbeldon 14/15/19 was much tougher than a peak Roddick on grass and a peak Nadal on grass or tougher at all.

It doesn’t need to be essay to know that Gonzalez and Scud were not main rivals of Federer that is just basic.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
How would it, "suggest it" exactly? You don't think Federer is greater than Roddick?
 

ElisRF

Professional
How would it, "suggest it" exactly? You don't think Federer is greater than Roddick?
Federer is obviously greater than Roddick overall.

But nothing suggests how Djokovic had much stronger grass competition than Federer and Federer faced the best of Djokovic himself in 2014 and even more so 2015.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Federer is obviously greater than Roddick overall.

But nothing suggests how Djokovic had much stronger grass competition than Federer and Federer faced the best of Djokovic himself in 2014 and even more so 2015.
I was talking about who they beat. Federer of 2015>Roddick 2004, Federer of 2014>Roddick of 2005, Federer of 2019>Roddick of 2009 and it ain't even close. Nadal of 11 is greater than or equal to Nadal of 2007. Philippousis is on Anderson's level...
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
I was talking about who they beat. Federer of 2015>Roddick 2004, Federer of 2014>Roddick of 2005, Federer of 2019>Roddick of 2009 and it ain't even close. Nadal of 11 is greater than or equal to Nadal of 2007. Philippousis is on Anderson's level...
So much wrong with this I have to assume you’re trolling... especially the bolded.

Only one I’d actually agree on is the bit about 2014 Fed and 2005 Roddick
 

ElisRF

Professional
I was talking about who they beat. Federer of 2015>Roddick 2004, Federer of 2014>Roddick of 2005, Federer of 2019>Roddick of 2009 and it ain't even close. Nadal of 11 is greater than or equal to Nadal of 2007. Philippousis is on Anderson's level..
Nope Scud was better than Anderson took 2003 Fed 2 breakers.

Roddick in 2004 lost in 4 competitive sets like Federer in 2015 so I don’t see how Federer was tougher in 2015. So it is only 2014 Federer and 2005 Roddick in your comparison. Nadal was better in 2007 than 2011 as well in the final.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
So much wrong with this I have to assume you’re trolling... especially the bolded.

Only one I’d actually agree on is the bit about 2014 Fed and 2005 Roddick
See...the truth can set you free. Now let more of it enter your mind.

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Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
See...the truth can set you free. Now let more of it enter your mind.

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need tl;dr version
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Nope Scud was better than Anderson took 2003 Fed 2 breakers.

Roddick in 2004 lost in 4 competitive sets like Federer in 2015 so I don’t see how Federer was tougher in 2015. So it is only 2014 Federer and 2005 Roddick in your comparison. Nadal was better in 2007 than 2011 as well in the final.
Because Federer is a much better player than Roddick, and was better than ever in 2015.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Could say that.
Even if you don't think 2015erer was peakerer, I think he was a much better player than any version of Roddick. Dude zoned in the semis that year. He would have made mythical 2004 Finals Roddick look helpless with same display. Only reason he didn't look as good in finals was because of Novak.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
For a so called Sampras fan, he actually says Phillippoussis is on the same level as Anderson.

Busted LMAO :-D
Old Philippousis was nowhere near the player he was in his 20s man, c'mon everyone knows that. Its not like he had the advantage of modern medicine to preserve his prime years, or have a rebirth like Fed.
Try harder :-D :-D :-D
 

ElisRF

Professional
Even if you don't think 2015erer was peakerer, I think he was a much better player than any version of Roddick. Dude zoned in the semis that year. He would have made mythical 2004 Finals Roddick look helpless with same display. Only reason he didn't look as good in finals was because of Novak.
2004 Federer struggled with Roddick so I have no idea how 2015 Federer destroys him but okay.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
2004 Federer struggled with Roddick so I have no idea how 2015 Federer destroys him but okay.
2015 Federer did many things better than 2004 Fed. His backhand was indisputably better, and even many Fedfans acknowledge how much better his serve was. Tennis is about match-ups, and if Federer's greatest weapon is greater, and his biggest weakness is now no longer a weakness, there's just no way for Roddick to get into the match.
 

ElisRF

Professional
2015 Federer did many things better than 2004 Fed. His backhand was indisputably better, and even many Fedfans acknowledge how much better his serve was. Tennis is about match-ups, and if Federer's greatest weapon is greater, and his biggest weakness is now no longer a weakness, there's just no way for Roddick to get into the match.
I guess movement and FH and return and passing shots and defending and endurance don’t exist then. Federer BH was only exposed back then by Nadal too.

Nothing suggests 2015 Federer would be a tougher matchup.
 
1970-1974
- Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Chang, Rafter, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Bruguera & Kafelnikov
1975-1979
- Kuerten, Moya, Rios, Blake, Haas, Costa & Gaudio
1980-1984
- Federer, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, Davydenko, Ferrero & Nalbandian
1985-1989
- Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Del Potro, Cilic, Berdych, Tsonga & Nishikori
1990-1994
- Thiem, Raonic, Dimitrov, Goffin, Sock, Pablo Carreño Busta

1995-1999
- Kyrgios, Medvedev, Zverev, Stefanos, Shapovalov, Rublev, De Minaur & Berretinni
2000-2004
- Felix, Sinner, Carlos Alcaraz

Generation responsible for weak era in Tennis 2016-2020
75-79 doesn't look too good there. Still at best an open question on 95-99.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
I guess movement and FH and return and passing shots and defending and endurance don’t exist then.

Nothing suggests 2015 Federer would be a tougher matchup.
They all exist, but even if we grant Federer of 2015 was diminished in those respects compared to Federer of 2004 (a big IF but lets not go there) Federer of 2015 still is significantly better in all those departments than Roddick. Plus endurance is a non-factor, Roddick's stamina was never much to consider.

And yes, better backhand and serve indisputably. Better volleys too. Forehand as good as ever per RF's testimony.
Biggest strength is bigger, biggest weakness is smaller, and main weapon is same. That suggests a lot more toughness and a lot less weakness, which means a lot more toughness, to me.
 

ElisRF

Professional
They all exist, but even if we grant Federer of 2015 was diminished in those respects compared to Federer of 2004 (a big IF but lets not go there) Federer of 2015 still is significantly better in all those departments than Roddick. Plus endurance is a non-factor, Roddick's stamina was never much to consider.

And yes, better backhand and serve indisputably. Better volleys too. Forehand as good as ever per RF's testimony.
Biggest strength is bigger, biggest weakness is smaller, and main weapon is same. That suggests a lot more toughness and a lot less weakness, which means a lot more toughness, to me.
Great trolling.

Federer will obviously not say he got much worse as a player.
 
Well said.

Hewitt/Safin pushed Sampras-Agassi out and were ranked 1, they are worth their weight on Gold when they were aged 20.
Even Roddick was the top young guy on Grass with the best serve back then, Mcenroe and everyone used to praise Roddick as the next big thing along with Roger.

Nobody knew Federer would literally crush them all and make them his bunnies, but he did, so insulting them would be like insulting pete-agassi before them.... the entire 90s era before federer will look weak if we question hewitt/safin/roddick
How old are you? I'm 42. I was posting on boards like this one in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Plenty of posters knew that there were significant holes in the games of both Hewitt and Roddick long before 2004. Safin was different certainly - he didn't live up to his potential, but he also had serious injury problems.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Because he's better than ever in 2015 LMAO.

Meanwhile, older Agassi was a crippled old man who couldn't move.
we've done this before Mikey. Rodgi had access to juices, nutritions, trainings, and recoveries Andre didn't. As well as a lack of spondylolisthesis as well. That's a big one.

Agassi's use of modern medicine extended about as far as the mummification rites they performed on him to preserve him up to the 2005 final.

 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
How old are you? I'm 42. I was posting on boards like this one in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Plenty of posters knew that there were significant holes in the games of both Hewitt and Roddick long before 2004. Safin was different certainly - he didn't live up to his potential, but he also had serious injury problems.
Still better than the Lost Gen and, so far, the Next Gen.

The Next Gen also have huge holes in their games.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Clearly weaker. Due to age difference Fed has had the toughest of the big 3 among themselves since the other two skipped most of peak Fed but Fed has had to deal with both of their peaks and has always been there (whereas Nadal basically skipped peak Djokovic in 15 and Djokovic wasn't really consistently there for peak 08-09 Nadal). Fed faced the best version of Nadalovic at pretty much every major besides Nadal at USO. Nadal never faced best Fed at AO/USO, Djokovic didn't face best Fed at any major unless you count 07 AO.

On top of that, Fed had to deal with his own generation and Agassi vs Djokodal having to deal with the current crop of complete black holes. Fed also dealt with the Tsonga/Berdych/Murray/Stan group more than Nadal did, not quite as much as Joe did, but old Agassi/Safin/Hewitt/Roddick/Nalbandian/Davydenko is better than that group anyways. I guess Federer never had to deal with Ferrer or Dimitrov that much in slams, maybe that swings it.

Overall, not even close. This post was slightly tongue in cheek because it's a bait thread but it's mostly the honest truth. Federer faced more and varied quality opponents in his career.
 
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