Have you ever seen your favourite lose when playing his very best?

thats pure conjecture on your part! you have no idea how fully matured Nole and Murray would have competed against prime Federer at the same time.

baby Nadal had a winning record against Federer from the start!

I think it's pretty safe to say that if Federer who has been past his prime for the last 3-4 years has still managed to have an app. 50% ratio of matches won against Djokovic and Murray he would do better than that if he was a couple of years younger. I don't think he would've dominated them, they're still top quality opponents and more than capable of beating prime Federer, I just don't think they would beat Fed half of the time if they were the same age.
 
:confused: :shock:

no Nadal, has just had to contend with Federer himself since the onset and grow up along with Nole and Murray :rolleyes:

BTW, baby Fed is up and coming, in case you've forgotten...

And what exactly has Dimitrov done to put him on par with Djokovic in 2007, Murray in 2008 or Nadal in 2005?

Teenage/early 20's Nadal/Djokovic/Murray were WAY better than Dimitrov this year and aged 23 (Dimitrov's age in July) Nadal/Djokovic/Murray were in the top 4 for a good 3-4 years.

I like Dimitrov but it's not even close. Maybe if he reaches a couple of quarters/semis in the Masters/Slams this year but at this point no chance.

Nadal had it tougher when he was younger but right now he only has to deal with Djokovic (he still hasn't played Murray for like 3 years!) who is more or less his age. The new generation hasn't done virtually anything worth mentioning other than an odd run (like Janowicz at Wimbledon).
 
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thats pure conjecture on your part! you have no idea how fully matured Nole and Murray would have competed against prime Federer at the same time.

baby Nadal had a winning record against Federer from the start!

So I suppose it's conjecture that older Nadal would do better against Federer than his younger self did? Good to know.

Nadal has the matchup in his favor. Murray and Djokovic don't, Murray didn't beat Federer in a slam until 2013 when Federer was 31 years old! Djokovic trails slightly in the slam h2h despite most of their meetings happening after Federer's best years.
 
I think it's pretty safe to say that if Federer who has been past his prime for the last 3-4 years has still managed to have an app. 50% ratio of matches won against Djokovic and Murray he would do better than that if he was a couple of years younger. I don't think he would've dominated them, they're still top quality opponents and more than capable of beating prime Federer, I just don't think they would beat Fed half of the time if they were the same age.

We have this paradox. If they were the same age, they wouldn't get the benefit of seeing Fed and his generation play, so their level would not be the same as today, so they would still lose most of their matches vs peak Fed.

That is why cross generation comparisons don't work.
 
So I suppose it's conjecture that older Nadal would do better against Federer than his younger self did? Good to know.

Nadal has the matchup in his favor. Murray and Djokovic don't, Murray didn't beat Federer in a slam until 2013 when Federer was 31 years old! Djokovic trails slightly in the slam h2h despite most of their meetings happening after Federer's best years.

ahh yes, the infamous match-up explanation of Nadal's relative dominance of Federer :rolleyes:

well that might have more credence if Nadal only had a positive H2H over Federer, however we all know that Nadal has a leading H2H over all his main rivals and peers; including the very best in his era.

so that is a just red herring and base form of rationalization for many Federer fans...
 
ahh yes, the infamous match-up explanation of Nadal's relative dominance of Federer :rolleyes:

well that might have more credence if Nadal only had a positive H2H over Federer, however we all know that Nadal has a leading H2H over all his main rivals and peers; including the very best in his era.

so that is a just red herring and base form of rationalization for many Federer fans...

How do you explain Nadal's 1-6 record against Davydenko on hard courts, then? (with the only win being 2 games away from losing, anyway). Is Davydenko a better hard court player than Nadal, then? And they didn't even play in 2005-2007 that often when Davydenko was at his career top level which would easily make the h2h against him (at least on HC's) more ugly.
 
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ahh yes, the infamous match-up explanation of Nadal's relative dominance of Federer :rolleyes:

well that might have more credence if Nadal only had a positive H2H over Federer, however we all know that Nadal has a leading H2H over all his main rivals and peers; including the very best in his era.

so that is a just red herring and base form of rationalization for many Federer fans...

But he had a winning h2h from the start, long before he was able to dominate the field. Not only that but explain why Nadal leads Federer on hardcourts but trails by a long way Davydenko and Djokovic both of whom trail Federer?

The fact is Federer is a much superior hardcourt player but trails Nadal on the surface. The simplist explanation for that is that Nadal's game matches up well with his. Match ups exist in sports you know...it's quite common.
 
But he had a winning h2h from the start, long before he was able to dominate the field. Not only that but explain why Nadal leads Federer on hardcourts but trails by a long way Davydenko and Djokovic both of whom trail Federer?

The fact is Federer is a much superior hardcourt player but trails Nadal on the surface. The simplist explanation for that is that Nadal's game matches up well with his. Match ups exist in sports you know...it's quite common.

there's no point trying to convince someone who's decided otherwise
 
But he had a winning h2h from the start, long before he was able to dominate the field. Not only that but explain why Nadal leads Federer on hardcourts but trails by a long way Davydenko and Djokovic both of whom trail Federer?

The fact is Federer is a much superior hardcourt player but trails Nadal on the surface. The simplist explanation for that is that Nadal's game matches up well with his. Match ups exist in sports you know...it's quite common.

I think clay skew and age explains h2h nicely. Without that the h2h would be about even.

I mean if Sampras was playing 5 years younger Agassi only on slower surfaces, I think h2h would be skewed in Agassi's favour too.

Considering age and clay skew and that Fed and Rafa are nr.1 and nr.2 in modern era, I think h2h is right where it should be. Considering Fed is HC and grass goat and Rafa is clay goat.

So, I don't see why people are surprised here. Things are normal.
 
your 'facts' mean little.

Federer has had more time to amass his 17 slams than Nadal has had to win his 13!

simple as that!

LOL...ok...your argument is BS, but I'll play along, follow me now..

The last time Fed made all 4 slam finals in a calendar year was 2009. He won 2 and lost 2 finals.

Now, much as I love Fed, Im confident in saying he will probably never do this again in his career. So basically you can say that 2009 was definitely the end of the Fed prime( his peak ended in 2007).

Now, since 2010, Fed has been in decline...and what has Nadal done since then?

Well, in 2010, he certainly made hay, not only taking advantage of a declining Fed( whom he had the matchup advantage over anyway) but also a generally weak top ten. Murray and Djoker were subpar, Delpo was injured, Davydenko hurt, Roddick washed up etc. So in 2010, he took advantage and won 3 slams.

2011 however he screwed the pooch. BeastMode Djoker emerged and spanked Nadal. One can argue that if not for inspired tennis from Fed, Nadal could very well have been slamless in 2011, but thanks to Fed, he was assured another FO victory, even tho he was blanked in the other other 3. So basicall, 2011 was a fail slam year for Nadal.

As for 2012, after getting beaten by Djoker, again, in a slam final, he regrouped and beat Djoker in the FO final ...only to be embarassingly blown out by a journeyman in the first round of Wimbledon.

Yeah I know, injry, injury, but the fact remains, he got beat, and then subsequently missed the rest of the 2012 season. Lost major ground there in terms of tying or besting Fed's slam record.

Then in 2013, Nadal skipped the AO, won the FO and USO...and *still* got blown out at Wimbledon again. So while he stWBill dominated his fave slam and took advantage of a weak HC field to win the USO, he bombed out at WB again.

So, I say all that to say this. You wanna disparage Fed for his 1.4 season's edge on winning slams without nadal? How about Nadal has had 3+ seasons without peak/prime Fed to deal with anymore and *still* couldnt close the slam gap.


From 2010-current, Fed has made 3 slam finals- 2010 AO, 2011 FO, and 2012 WB, and he is 2-1 in those finals.

So, one could argue that from the time Fed won his first slam at WB 2003..Nadal has had *more* time to amass more slam wins.

Again, Fed won 4 slams from WB 2003 to FO 2005. A 2 year span. Meanwhile, Fed has been out of his speak since 2009 and Nadal has had THREE years to tie or surpass Fed's slam count and he still has failed.

Nadal spent half of 2011 and most/all of 2012 ranked number 2 ( again) behind Djoker and regained world number 1 some time after the USO. But in the meantime he did not significantly close the gap between he and Fed even though he had more time during Fed's decline to do so than fed had between WB 2003 and FO 2005.


Now, I know you will say injury, but to this I say, if it can apply, it WB can only apply to post WB 2012. But,"injury" aside how does it explain Nadal's failure?

And before you say 'strong era'..umm...Isnt the same argument you use against Fed?????


You claim Fed isnt GOAT because he failed to dominate one lone opponent.

But yet, without Fed whom he already had a matchup advantage against, Nadal failed to dominate Djoker and couldnt close the slam gap he had with Fed in a significant fashion. So why is Fed castigated for his failure to dominate his one lone exception??? but Im sure the Nadaliban will come up with all manner of excuses to defend the fact that in spite of a diminished Federer, he still spent half the time between 2010 and 2013 ranked number 2 and failed to dominate the field as expected of a so-called GOAt candidate.
 
^^ Please folks, stop answering to whatever this ridiculous ret***** DRII fellow posts.
It's obvious he hasn't got any clue whatsoever when it comes to tennis.

I guess he'll be pulling the 'RACIST!!!'-card immediately after this post of mine... okay buddy, my pleasure. :rolleyes:
Eh just this Mr. DRII: your Idol Nadal is a completely normal European fellow. Caucasian complexion, if you understand what that means.
 
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LOL...ok...your argument is BS, but I'll play along, follow me now..

The last time Fed made all 4 slam finals in a calendar year was 2009. He won 2 and lost 2 finals.

Now, much as I love Fed, Im confident in saying he will probably never do this again in his career. So basically you can say that 2009 was definitely the end of the Fed prime( his peak ended in 2007).

Now, since 2010, Fed has been in decline...and what has Nadal done since then?

Well, in 2010, he certainly made hay, not only taking advantage of a declining Fed( whom he had the matchup advantage over anyway) but also a generally weak top ten. Murray and Djoker were subpar, Delpo was injured, Davydenko hurt, Roddick washed up etc. So in 2010, he took advantage and won 3 slams.

2011 however he screwed the pooch. BeastMode Djoker emerged and spanked Nadal. One can argue that if not for inspired tennis from Fed, Nadal could very well have been slamless in 2011, but thanks to Fed, he was assured another FO victory, even tho he was blanked in the other other 3. So basicall, 2011 was a fail slam year for Nadal.

As for 2012, after getting beaten by Djoker, again, in a slam final, he regrouped and beat Djoker in the FO final ...only to be embarassingly blown out by a journeyman in the first round of Wimbledon.

Yeah I know, injry, injury, but the fact remains, he got beat, and then subsequently missed the rest of the 2012 season. Lost major ground there in terms of tying or besting Fed's slam record.

Then in 2013, Nadal skipped the AO, won the FO and USO...and *still* got blown out at Wimbledon again. So while he stWBill dominated his fave slam and took advantage of a weak HC field to win the USO, he bombed out at WB again.

So, I say all that to say this. You wanna disparage Fed for his 1.4 season's edge on winning slams without nadal? How about Nadal has had 3+ seasons without peak/prime Fed to deal with anymore and *still* couldnt close the slam gap.


From 2010-current, Fed has made 3 slam finals- 2010 AO, 2011 FO, and 2012 WB, and he is 2-1 in those finals.

So, one could argue that from the time Fed won his first slam at WB 2003..Nadal has had *more* time to amass more slam wins.

Again, Fed won 4 slams from WB 2003 to FO 2005. A 2 year span. Meanwhile, Fed has been out of his speak since 2009 and Nadal has had THREE years to tie or surpass Fed's slam count and he still has failed.

Nadal spent half of 2011 and most/all of 2012 ranked number 2 ( again) behind Djoker and regained world number 1 some time after the USO. But in the meantime he did not significantly close the gap between he and Fed even though he had more time during Fed's decline to do so than fed had between WB 2003 and FO 2005.


Now, I know you will say injury, but to this I say, if it can apply, it WB can only apply to post WB 2012. But,"injury" aside how does it explain Nadal's failure?

And before you say 'strong era'..umm...Isnt the same argument you use against Fed?????


You claim Fed isnt GOAT because he failed to dominate one lone opponent.

But yet, without Fed whom he already had a matchup advantage against, Nadal failed to dominate Djoker and couldnt close the slam gap he had with Fed in a significant fashion. So why is Fed castigated for his failure to dominate his one lone exception??? but Im sure the Nadaliban will come up with all manner of excuses to defend the fact that in spite of a diminished Federer, he still spent half the time between 2010 and 2013 ranked number 2 and failed to dominate the field as expected of a so-called GOAt candidate.

my gosh that was simply ridiculous!

the amount of rationalization required for such twisted logic coming from Fedephants like yourself is truly amazing...
 
^^ Please folks, stop answering to whatever this ridiculous ret***** DRII fellow posts.
It's obvious he hasn't got any clue whatsoever when it comes to tennis.

I guess he'll be pulling the 'RACIST!!!'-card immediately after this post of mine... okay buddy, my pleasure. :rolleyes:
Eh just this Mr. DRII: your Idol Nadal is a completely normal European fellow. Caucasian complexion, if you understand what that means.

i understand that you have little idea of what you're talking about :rolleyes:

i suggest you look up the definition of phenotype!
 
my gosh that was simply ridiculous!

the amount of rationalization required for such twisted logic coming from Fedephants like yourself is truly amazing...

So basically, you have nothing once again given cold hard facts to deal with and not just your opinion.
 
Well, once again a fine start to a thread has degenerated into Nadal and Federer fans bickering, although I think it's been a bit of a silly thread as most of the crowd's only favorites are guys in the current top four.

I've seen my favorite player lose lots of times when playing his very best, because there are simply better players than Kohlschreiber, even though he has a beautiful backhand and constructs points rather well.

Lots of fun players to watch not in the top 4. Yes, the top 4 are great, but there are an awful lot of interesting players outside that group.
 
It's the most important thing to you but not to me.....

And against the field it can be argued that Nadal is better.

Against the big four Nadal is the only one that has a winning record against all.

Nadal also has a winning record against the top 30 players .

But again to me the most important factor is the h2h in slams .....

Nadal leads I think 10-2 ? And the two only came on grass prior to Nadal winning any slam outside of clay. He was still a clay court specialist at the time

To me this means he is better .....

Also I don't think you can logically be called the greatest when your chief rival owns you . It's never happened before in this sport or any other sport so why should Federer be the exception to the rule that everyone else goes by ?


Let's just say Nadal was truly a clay court specialist - had like 9 FO's and no slams outside of that... and 95% of Fedal matches were on clay and Nadal lead the H2H 23-1 instead of 23-10

Would Federer still be not in the GOAT conversation because he couldn't beat that one guy on Clay?
 
Winners or Errors I feel you man!

So much great tennis and fun matches to watch out there off the top 5 list! I wish more people were into the full table, not just the podium places
 
Hey man Devvarman has some decent tennis skill! Not great, but I do enjoy seeing him in the first couple rounds. Even if a country isn't great in tennis, I always like to look at what their best has to offer.

I remember he went against Fed last year at RG but it was a massacre
 
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