Having a 4 Star (or 3 star) 6th Grader (or 7th grader) repeat their grade?

[dallasoliver]

Also, some players stay in junior class then jump back into senior class cause they get recruited in spring. One boy training at the USTA Boca center did that this year!

This one I have data for. We review all profile updates, and there have been 14 corrections for players (boys and girls) in high school this past year. That includes both "grading up" and "grading down".

If my player was playing back a class they would think he was the next Jack Sock, which by the way turns 19 this summer. If in school he would have graduated in 2010, not the 2011 class he is in. (Not taking anything away from Jack cause he is amazing, but still.)

Are you saying that Sock should be in the Class of 2010? He just won his HS state championship for the fourth straight year. If he can play that tournament as a Class of 2011, that is certainly good enough for TRN.

Best,
Dallas

 

[dallasoliver]

TR.net feels that their responsibility is to make sure that the tennis player is in the right grade. For example, that a 11th grader isn't pretending to be a 9th grader. In regards to that, they do an excellent job and catch kids who are lying about their grade.

The problem is the parents who are leaving the kids back a grade and the home schoolers ( sorry, if I am offending anyone here) who really can be any grade they want.

I think it would make the coaches job easier to evaluate a player quickly if they knew whether it was a 17 year old who still was maturing or a 20 year old....

Again, we DO provide birthdate information to coaches today. All coaches have access to a page about players that shows their birthdate, contact information, academic information, etc.

Best,
Dallas

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Dallas, then forget birthdates. Forget month and year even. Just use age in quarters or half years.

A simple computer program that triggers a change on the profile page when a kid reached 16.25, 16.5. 16.75 years old.

The goal is integrity of the game. Sure coaches can easily find it out. We are trying to make parents think twice about holding kids back simply for tennis. And if they do, a slight penalty of having the age show up on the TRN profile and rankings list.

If for example you see Class of 2013 and 4 of the top 5 boys are 16.0 and 16.25 and one is 18.25 years old, it should jump out.

You guys make sure to remove any kid that takes sponsorship deals like Shishkina, be as vigilant against this much bigger issue.

 

[andfor]

A few quick comments...

(1) TRN provides a "provisional grade" (we call it a provisional graduation class) to every player based on birthdate or approximate birthdate. That provisional grade is our best guess using their age - and it seems to be correct around two-thirds of the time. We make a lot of mistakes for kids who have summer birthdates - those kids tend to fluctuate.

When players "link" to their profile, they have the opportunity to correct that graduation date. We do not police the initial setting. We DO police later changes - once a graduation date is set, our policies make it much more difficult to change.

Back to the point... Most players find out about our website during the 12s or 14s - in middle school - and they correct their grade at that point. For that reason, there is a lot of movement (which you are seeing) for the 6th-, 7th-, and 8th-grade classes.

(2) People are welcome to submit what they believe to be fraudulent graduation years to us. We have had few problems with that in the past, and so we have been able to keep up with the volume. We have required documentation from the school of players' graduation year in some cases.

(3) As for the "grading down" issue, I do not think there is much we can do there. It seems like a legal thing to do, although it (obviously) does not seem to be in the child's best interests. That strategy will actually be detrimental to a player's TRN ranking in the long run - once they turn 19 and cannot play junior tournaments, their ranking will start to drop, and their record will be completely blank if they turn 20.

Best,
Dallas

You explanation works for me Dallas. Thanks for taking the time to respond. As for the conspiracy theorists and jail house attorneys, I'm sure you have to deal with them regularly and I wish you peace and well-being on that front. I for one like your service and know a number of college coaches who find TRN a great site to help them do their jobs.

Keep up the great great work.

 

[BSPE84]

This is just ridiculous, I have a third year college student and actually know many of these students you have never heard of. But apparently you know the bio of every college player, good for you. I am guessing you are closed minded to an excellent tennis player being an amazing student (online or otherwise) because you must have an average tennis player in which yes, stay in high school and go to a UC and go into engineering. What a dream. Most players can't do both, but the best kids can. Apparently, yours isn't one of them. So stay in school!

Well my guess is that you have a reading comprehension disability, so I won't try to explain it to you again by repeating myself a third time. Perhaps it is not too late for you to go back to college :shock:.

But this being early Sunday and the family still sleeping, I looked up just for grins the listed majors for the starting roster at USC and Stanford. This is what I came up with:

Stanford

Alex Clayton - psychology
Bradley Klahn - undeclared
Fawaz Hourani - undeclared
Daniel Ho - undeclared
Denis Lin - undeclared
Ryan Thacher - history

USC

Steve Johnson - human performance
Jaak Poldma - poli sci
Daniel Nguyen - undeclared
JT Sundling - undeclared
Ray Sarmiento - undeclared
Emilio Gomez - undeclared

Most of these guys look to be using college just as a stepping stone to the pros. It would have been totally unnecessary for any of them to do physics or calculus in HS for those listed (or unlisted) majors. If they did, they wouldn't be where they're at in all likelihood. Your 3rd year superstar player probably couldn't be the water boy on Peter Smith's team, so in that sense he's not very good either. Like I said, something's got to give .

 

[BSPE84]

Looks so familiar and yet it is from a brand new member.

Yea I noticed that. Pretty sure it's not Brad, so must be some lonely guy in FL .

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Well my guess is that you have a reading comprehension disability, so I won't try to explain it to you again by repeating myself a third time. Perhaps it is not too late for you to go back to college :shock:.

But this being early Sunday and the family still sleeping, I looked up just for grins the listed majors for the starting roster at USC and Stanford. This is what I came up with:

Stanford

Alex Clayton - psychology
Bradley Klahn - undeclared
Fawaz Hourani - undeclared
Daniel Ho - undeclared
Denis Lin - undeclared
Ryan Thacher - history

USC

Steve Johnson - human performance
Jaak Poldma - poli sci
Daniel Nguyen - undeclared
JT Sundling - undeclared
Ray Sarmiento - undeclared
Emilio Gomez - undeclared

Most of these guys look to be using college just as a stepping stone to the pros. It would have been totally unnecessary for any of them to do physics or calculus in HS for those listed (or unlisted) majors. If they did, they wouldn't be where they're at in all likelihood. Your 3rd year superstar player probably couldn't be the water boy on Peter Smith's team, so in that sense he's not very good either. Like I said, something's got to give .

Ha, that is interesting about the majors. I agree that these guys on that high level are going to use college with an eye on the pros. The good thing is that if the pro thing does not work out they at least have a good number of college credits and can finish their degree some day.

The truth is that players that go full on heavy tennis route, with online schooling, are looking pros. Whether children like Mia Lines or Sonya Kenin, Shishkina, or these boys at the top tennis schools, they (parents) are thinking pros, not college majors.

We home school because we travel a lot, think kids should learn culture, creativity, and how to run a business over traditional academics, and have heard to many 7 year olds using the F word at the playground to want to lump our kids with them. But am I giving them a better education as far as pure academics then they would get at a top private school, no way. There are big trade offs with either method.

 

[tennis5]

Dallas, then forget birthdates.
Forget month and year even.
Just use age in quarters or half years.

A simple computer program that triggers a change on the profile page when a kid reached 16.25, 16.5. 16.75 years old.

This is brilliant and an easy computer application for them too!

 

[tennis5]

I looked up just for grins the listed majors for the starting roster at USC and Stanford. This is what I came up with:

Stanford

Alex Clayton - psychology
Bradley Klahn - undeclared
Fawaz Hourani - undeclared
Daniel Ho - undeclared
Denis Lin - undeclared
Ryan Thacher - history

USC

Steve Johnson - human performance
Jaak Poldma - poli sci
Daniel Nguyen - undeclared
JT Sundling - undeclared
Ray Sarmiento - undeclared
Emilio Gomez - undeclared

Undeclared usually means undecided.

How to get to college and know what you are interested in....

Summer internships.
( Free worker)

Two weeks here and there over the summer at a friend's insurance company, real estate office, local hospital, accounting, law, financial, hotel, department store helps a lot in figuring out what junior is interested in, looks nice on the college resume, and helps in the real world after you get out of college, and you have a real job offer.

I know the kids all play tennis, but one can squeeze in time here or there.
In between major tournaments, one can do a week or two.

Yes, it takes some effort from the parents to reach out to friends and ask if there might be a spot. Also, some high schools have summer internship departments where your son/daughter can see what is listed.

 

[tennisnoob3]

Well my guess is that you have a reading comprehension disability, so I won't try to explain it to you again by repeating myself a third time. Perhaps it is not too late for you to go back to college :shock:.

But this being early Sunday and the family still sleeping, I looked up just for grins the listed majors for the starting roster at USC and Stanford. This is what I came up with:

Stanford

Alex Clayton - psychology
Bradley Klahn - undeclared
Fawaz Hourani - undeclared
Daniel Ho - undeclared
Denis Lin - undeclared
Ryan Thacher - history

USC

Steve Johnson - human performance
Jaak Poldma - poli sci
Daniel Nguyen - undeclared
JT Sundling - undeclared
Ray Sarmiento - undeclared
Emilio Gomez - undeclared

Most of these guys look to be using college just as a stepping stone to the pros. It would have been totally unnecessary for any of them to do physics or calculus in HS for those listed (or unlisted) majors. If they did, they wouldn't be where they're at in all likelihood. Your 3rd year superstar player probably couldn't be the water boy on Peter Smith's team, so in that sense he's not very good either. Like I said, something's got to give .

i can guarantee you the kids at stanford took their calculus and physics. im pretty sure there was a video about one of the stanford tennis players in a classroom debate on youtube. fwiw, arent the stanford kids all academic all american or honors or whatever it is? your SAT scores and grades have to be within a standard deviation or two of the mean, so they are pretty bright. USC has shady recruiting practices and i wont argue a case for them obviously

 

[tennisnoob3]

There is a difference between learning calculus or biology from a textbook
versus a classroom with lively, engaging discussions, different questions posed from students, and real science labs.

( Many colleges, for example, University of California, do not accept certain online science courses and labs).

Your homeschooler ( online learner ) is studying for the AP tests.

Most high schools don't teach to the AP test, what they offer instead is a rich curriculum,
studying the actual material for the AP test is the student's job during their spare time.


Just because junior at age 12 wants to be a pro and play at the US Open,
doesn't mean that the parents should say, "Ok, we will help you follow your dream."

I was speaking to a former college coach from a southern school who told me about this great kid they had from a Florida academy who dominated in college tennis, but could barely pass his classes.

He really didn't care about the future of this kid, he just used him for tennis.

That is where the parents have to say that unless junior won the 16's Easter Bowl at age 14,
the focus should be on education, not playing 5 hours of tennis a day.

And I don't recall the Ivy's or the select academic colleges accepting many, any tennis online scholars.

your statement is false and leads me to believe you dont have the faintest clue in anything you're talking about. AP classes are geared towards the AP test(thats the whole point).....so i have no idea where you got the idea that they arent.

 

[tennis5]

Many high school students enroll in AP classes for the sole reason to bring up their weighted GPA averages, the fact is many colleges are now not accepting AP classes for college credit.

My son goes to a private school. The bio AP class is not geared towards the standardized test. The class has creative, hands on labs and lively scientific debate. The teacher spends more time on fewer subjects.
The mass memorization for the test is done by the students on their own time.
( And some of the kids do hire a tutor for this).
It would be impossible for a teacher to cover all the material that are on AP tests... and good teaching is not a cram session in class.

FYI, the new bio exams are coming in 2013.

 

[BSPE84]

i can guarantee you the kids at stanford took their calculus and physics. im pretty sure there was a video about one of the stanford tennis players in a classroom debate on youtube. fwiw, arent the stanford kids all academic all american or honors or whatever it is? your SAT scores and grades have to be within a standard deviation or two of the mean, so they are pretty bright. USC has shady recruiting practices and i wont argue a case for them obviously

Maybe some did, but any HS upperclassman kid will be able to tell you that you don't need calculus or physics to do well on the SAT. The SAT is really about comprehension and deductive reasoning skills; a good understanding of geometry and basic trigonometry is all you need to do well on the math portion of the test.

No argument that the Stanford kids probably have more going on the academic side than most. But obviously their SAT score was not the first consideration when the school recruited them.

 

[BSPE84]

The truth is that players that go full on heavy tennis route, with online schooling, are looking pros. Whether children like Mia Lines or Sonya Kenin, Shishkina, or these boys at the top tennis schools, they (parents) are thinking pros, not college majors.

Of course they are, who's that guy kidding? If a kid is not good enough to get recruited by one of the tennis power houses, chances are he/she is not going to make a living off a racquet.

It is utterly insane to think any kid can compete at an extremely high level in both the classroom and on the court and come out on top in both. It is not impossible, but most people would not plan it that way.

 

[tennisnoob3]

Many high school students enroll in AP classes for the sole reason to bring up their weighted GPA averages, the fact is many colleges are now not accepting AP classes for college credit.

My son goes to a private school. The bio AP class is not geared towards the standardized test. The class has creative, hands on labs and lively scientific debate. The teacher spends more time on fewer subjects.
The mass memorization for the test is done by the students on their own time.
( And some of the kids do hire a tutor for this).
It would be impossible for a teacher to cover all the material that are on AP tests... and good teaching is not a cram session in class.

FYI, the new bio exams are coming in 2013.

prove it, thats also not a fact. most colleges take ap credit in all the subjects, with the exception of your major being an ap field of study and trying to get credit.

 

[racket-e]

Many high school students enroll in AP classes for the sole reason to bring up their weighted GPA averages, the fact is many colleges are now not accepting AP classes for college credit.

My son goes to a private school. The bio AP class is not geared towards the standardized test. The class has creative, hands on labs and lively scientific debate. The teacher spends more time on fewer subjects.
The mass memorization for the test is done by the students on their own time.
( And some of the kids do hire a tutor for this).
It would be impossible for a teacher to cover all the material that are on AP tests... and good teaching is not a cram session in class.

FYI, the new bio exams are coming in 2013.

Thats in private schools. And only in some. Most kids go to public schools, where it is a cram to try to get them high ap test scores since thats what the public schools get judged by, and the SAT.

 

[ga tennis]

I have been a public high school teacher for 15 years and i can tell you that if you wanna keep your job you better teach the test.Thanks to G.Bush and no child left behind.He handled Education worse than he handled Katrina.

 

[dallasoliver]

Dallas, then forget birthdates. Forget month and year even. Just use age in quarters or half years.

A simple computer program that triggers a change on the profile page when a kid reached 16.25, 16.5. 16.75 years old.

As I mentioned previously, I need to talk to our lawyer friends about this.

If for example you see Class of 2013 and 4 of the top 5 boys are 16.0 and 16.25 and one is 18.25 years old, it should jump out.

These comments seem misleading to me. As of today, all of the top ten sophomore boys are 16 years old. None of them are 18.25 years old. (?) Likewise, all of the top seniors are 18 or younger. All of the top juniors are 17 or younger.


I just don't see the conspiracy - and the data doesn't show this to be some sort of rampant problem. The original post mentions seeing 6th- and 7th-graders updating their graduation year - which is an expected phenomenon that I described above... after all, players/parents will correct their graduation year when they discover TRN - which usually happens in 6th- or 7th-grade, but it does sometimes happen later.

Best,
Dallas

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

As I mentioned previously, I need to talk to our lawyer friends about this.



These comments seem misleading to me. As of today, all of the top ten sophomore boys are 16 years old. None of them are 18.25 years old. (?) Likewise, all of the top seniors are 18 or younger. All of the top juniors are 17 or younger.


I just don't see the conspiracy - and the data doesn't show this to be some sort of rampant problem. The original post mentions seeing 6th- and 7th-graders updating their graduation year - which is an expected phenomenon that I described above... after all, players/parents will correct their graduation year when they discover TRN - which usually happens in 6th- or 7th-grade, but it does sometimes happen later.

Best,
Dallas

It is an example, like I said in my post. An example, clearly stated as such, can not be misleading.

Forget the data, its just a good thing to see where the kids stack up age wise. Its just as important as schedule strength. When you click on the ranking for any class you should also see the ages of the kids.

You have kids playing the online learning game. I pointed out one time a kid who was kept back 2 years and he was a pro at a country club. He is going to be 20 years old 2 weeks after he graduates his 'high school'. Him being held back was simply to gain a recruiting advantage.

There is no liability issue about posting an age.

 

[chalkflewup]

It is an example, like I said in my post. An example, clearly stated as such, can not be misleading.

Forget the data, its just a good thing to see where the kids stack up age wise. Its just as important than schedule strength. when you click on the ranking for any class you should also see the ages of the kids.

Once again TCF, you and I see eye to eye. It's one more way to gauge where a kid is at in the process. I believe the Eddie Herr publishes birthdays...yes?

 

[tennis5]

prove it, thats also not a fact. most colleges take ap credit in all the subjects, with the exception of your major being an ap field of study and trying to get credit.

Hi Tennisnoob,

This will be my last message on AP classes as this is a tennis site....

And so if you need me to "prove it" on any other topic,

I would kindly suggest looking it up yourself.

My statement was, "The fact is many colleges are now not accepting AP classes for college credit."

And let's see, you are asking me to "prove it".

Well, for starters, taking a AP class does not guarantee that you will receive college credit,
it is at the discretion of the college.

Some colleges only accept 4's or 5's now,

others will take high AP exam scores to satisfy the foreign-language requirement,
but not general education credits.

Some schools don't award credits, but placement is in a sophomore class.

Some colleges only give credit for a maximum of three AP courses

While all of this may be for financial gain on the college's part,

one must not expect that AP courses in high school are a guarantee for college credit.

Today's current college policy for your 9th grader may change when they graduate.

Of course, for a gifted student the option to take fewer courses in college in order to graduate sooner would make no sense.

And the College Board, a nonprofit organization, derives about a third of its $600 million revenue annually from Advanced Placement exams,

And this from a College Advisory site:

AP College Credit Con

Some unsuspecting students will be surprised to find that their classes are not as readily accepted by universities as they thought they would be.

Elite colleges sometimes will claim that some high schools’ AP level courses are not as rigorous as their own; therefore they won’t accept the credits.

High schools are also getting in on the act of misusing the AP program.

Some schools are teaching to the test, which causes inflated AP score averages.

This scenario effectively churns out kids with AP credit who don’t necessarily have a deep knowledge level of the subject.

 

[chalkflewup]

Hi Tennisnoob,

This will be my last message on AP classes as this is a tennis site....

And so if you need me to "prove it" on any other topic,

I would kindly suggest looking it up yourself.

My statement was, "The fact is many colleges are now not accepting AP classes for college credit."

And let's see, you are asking me to "prove it".

Well, for starters, taking a AP class does not guarantee that you will receive college credit,
it is at the discretion of the college.

Some colleges only accept 4's or 5's now,

others will take high AP exam scores to satisfy the foreign-language requirement,
but not general education credits.

Some schools don't award credits, but placement is in a sophomore class.

Some colleges only give credit for a maximum of three AP courses

While all of this may be for financial gain on the college's part,

one must not expect that AP courses in high school are a guarantee for college credit.

Today's current college policy for your 9th grader may change when they graduate.

Of course, for a gifted student the option to take fewer courses in college in order to graduate sooner would make no sense.

And the College Board, a nonprofit organization, derives about a third of its $600 million revenue annually from Advanced Placement exams,

And this from a College Advisory site:

AP College Credit Con

Some unsuspecting students will be surprised to find that their classes are not as readily accepted by universities as they thought they would be.

Elite colleges sometimes will claim that some high schools’ AP level courses are not as rigorous as their own; therefore they won’t accept the credits.

High schools are also getting in on the act of misusing the AP program.

Some schools are teaching to the test, which causes inflated AP score averages.

This scenario effectively churns out kids with AP credit who don’t necessarily have a deep knowledge level of the subject.

This is why many kids opt for the dual enrollment path instead of the AP route as colleges have to recognize the Associate's Degree.

 

[tennis5]

As I mentioned previously, I need to talk to our lawyer friends about this.



These comments seem misleading to me. As of today, all of the top ten sophomore boys are 16 years old. None of them are 18.25 years old. (?) Likewise, all of the top seniors are 18 or younger. All of the top juniors are 17 or younger.


I just don't see the conspiracy - and the data doesn't show this to be some sort of rampant problem. The original post mentions seeing 6th- and 7th-graders updating their graduation year - which is an expected phenomenon that I described above... after all, players/parents will correct their graduation year when they discover TRN - which usually happens in 6th- or 7th-grade, but it does sometimes happen later.

Best,
Dallas

Hi Dallas,

As the TRN is a relatively new site, I think one could agree that changes will occur as parents acclimate themselves to the system, and sadly try to game it.

Could it be a new trend on TRN that parents are holding kids back ( or making their grade whatever in homeschool) to gain an edge, another star, and some scholarship money?

Possibly, we are seeing it for the 6th, 7th and 8th grade...
as I personally know some 15 1/2 year olds in 8th grade.
So, when he is a sophomore, he will be 17 1/2.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Once again TCF, you and I see eye to eye. It's one more way to gauge where a kid is at in the process. I believe the Eddie Herr publishes birthdays...yes?

Yes they do, as does the USTA. Birthdays are all over the place.

The needing to ask a lawyer logic does not hold water. Dallas says the problem is not rampant and all the boys are the same age. Okay, then if you list what graduating class they are then whats the difference in putting ages if they are all the same age?

But they are not the same age. I guarantee you there are 17 year old seniors and 18 year old seniors and almost 19 year old seniors. I was 17 until December of my freshmen year of college, others were 18, 19, 20.

Its a silly thing being stubborn on this issue. When you pull up the rankings list you should see what age the top 100 kids in the Class of 2011 are.

 

[mojojojo]

.......................

 

[dallasoliver]

Birthdays are all over the place.

The needing to ask a lawyer logic does not hold water.

These will be my last comments on the legality issue. As I stated several times, we will look into the idea of sharing age or birth month on the public profile page.

There is a fundamental difference between the relationship that the Eddie Herr, USTA, and ITF has with junior players and their families and the relationship that TRN has.

When you enter a tournament, you enter a direct agreement with that tournament and governing organization. You agree to certain terms and conditions, which may include sharing certain information. The parents also grant certain releases.

At TRN, we have profile pages for lots of kids with whom we have no direct relationship at all. And in almost all cases, we are talking about minors.

I don't know what more to say... our friends in the lawyer profession have always cautioned us to tread lightly - and we get legal threats all the time. We are just not going near this issue without a lot more thought.

Best,
Dallas

 

[klu375]

How about publishing secondary ranking by birth year with 1 year resolution on Thursdays and Friday instead of RPI ranking? And add "unconfirmed" column to both tr.net rankings if class/birth date are not confirmed. Or show these players in different color.

 

[hound 109]

Thanks for all the comments regarding the pro's & con's of having a middle school tennis player repeat a grade (& how it affects different rankings & academy opportunities).

If you all want to discuss "on line schooling" & how different HS paths affect college performance (both great topics).......please start a new thread.

 

[tennis5]

These will be my last comments on the legality issue. As I stated several times, we will look into the idea of sharing age or birth month on the public profile page.

There is a fundamental difference between the relationship that the Eddie Herr, USTA, and ITF has with junior players and their families and the relationship that TRN has.

When you enter a tournament, you enter a direct agreement with that tournament and governing organization. You agree to certain terms and conditions, which may include sharing certain information. The parents also grant certain releases.

At TRN, we have profile pages for lots of kids with whom we have no direct relationship at all. And in almost all cases, we are talking about minors.

I don't know what more to say... our friends in the lawyer profession have always cautioned us to tread lightly - and we get legal threats all the time. We are just not going near this issue without a lot more thought.

Best,
Dallas

Hi Dallas,

I understand the above was your last comment on this subject, so the following thoughts are just for your consideration.

First, some of the players do not provide any info, and they are considered provisional. Period.

I am addressing my issues to the concerns of players ( and the parents who supply the credit cards too for the additional perks) who do list info.

If the location ( city, state) is already provided, and there is a spot for kids to list their high school, or tennis academy, ( and height, weight, tennis coach, tournaments wins, miscellaneous info, etc....). Why not put a spot on the page for the kids to list ( if they want ) their month/year of birth.
This option would be TOTALLY VOLUNTARY and solely up to the discretion of the player and ( more likely dad).
I am not sure why if I volunteer my son's birth month/year, how this would cause a legal issue for another family?

Dallas, the parents here are discussing this as they feel that some parents are gaming the system ( should be no surprise as these are tennis parents, and although life is unfair.... this seems like such a simple fix.

Personally, I like Tennis Coach's idea best.
You volunteer your child's birthdate on the personal form, and you guys do the programming for 16.25 etc. Under this system, if a parent doesn't wish to provide the birthdate on the personal form, then it will not show up on the front of the page as 16.25.

And I know that you do not see it as an issue for the high school kids NOW....
but parents in my son's section talk about it all the time...
It is up there in complaints with the tournaments providing few/no/pizza eating refs.

Thank you in advance for listening to these suggestions.

I think it is everyone's goal here to make TRN even better!

 

[hound 109]

Comments below.

A few quick comments...

(1) TRN provides a "provisional grade" (we call it a provisional graduation class) to every player based on birthdate or approximate birthdate. That provisional grade is our best guess using their age - and it seems to be correct around two-thirds of the time. We make a lot of mistakes for kids who have summer birthdates - those kids tend to fluctuate.

When players "link" to their profile, they have the opportunity to correct that graduation date. We do not police the initial setting. We DO police later changes - once a graduation date is set, our policies make it much more difficult to change.

Back to the point... Most players find out about our website during the 12s or 14s - in middle school - and they correct their grade at that point. For that reason, there is a lot of movement (which you are seeing) for the 6th-, 7th-, and 8th-grade classes.

I was aware of this Dallas. Thanks for repeating this.


(2) People are welcome to submit what they believe to be fraudulent graduation years to us. We have had few problems with that in the past, and so we have been able to keep up with the volume. We have required documentation from the school of players' graduation year in some cases.

I never suggested anyone was being "fraudulent". I was suggesting that there are 4 players 12-18 mos older than the "average 6th grader" in our section. (that i have observed)

I was wondering aloud to the posters here if this is possibly taking place in other sections. In subsequent posts i was respectully asking that TRN post the month / year info. Along with a player's "blue chip" or 5 Star status.......& their favorite footwear.

Or at the very least provide a place on their TRN home page for the player to VOLUNTARILY put their month / year of birth?


(3) As for the "grading down" issue, I do not think there is much we can do there. It seems like a legal thing to do,

Agreed....you guys shouldn't be policeman....just report info & data. One more piece of data would be great.


....although it (obviously) does not seem to be in the child's best interests.

Blue Chip status likely gets a player FREE (& better) training. (& a probable tennis scholarship). 5 Star status will get one greatly reduced $$ training (& a possible tennis scholarship). So....it COULD very well be in the child's (& certainly in the parent's) best interest?


That strategy will actually be detrimental to a player's TRN ranking in the long run - once they turn 19 and cannot play junior tournaments, their ranking will start to drop, and their record will be completely blank if they turn 20.

They will have their D1 scholarship locked up by the time they are 18 years 11 months. & possibly they will have enjoyed many years of high quality training at free or reduced rates.....all because they were a blue chip instead of a 4 star. (or a 5 star instead of a 3 star).


Best,
Dallas

At this point, I'm not saying this is a "Good" Strategy.....or a "Bad" strategy. I'm merely observing the age up month/year of players in our section (especially the guys who are Top 10 or top 20)......& what their TRN rankings are.

No research was done. I'm WELL aware of the TRN rankings.....& the sectional rankings..... & ALSO the player strengths & weaknesses of the top 10 (or 20) players in our section (since my kid has to play them almost every month).

When things change significantly (such as when a player ages up, or has a good result in a national.....or if the TRN ranking changes from a 4 star to a blue chip......most kids & parents of players in a section are aware without much research. It's a just a few "clicks" of the mouse.

.

 

[hound 109]

You explanation works for me Dallas. Thanks for taking the time to respond. As for the conspiracy theorists and jail house attorneys, I'm sure you have to deal with them regularly and I wish you peace and well-being on that front. I for one like your service and know a number of college coaches who find TRN a great site to help them do their jobs.

Keep up the great great work.

Conspiracy Theorists???

My original post discusses (& asks about) the pro's & con's of holding back a 6th or 7th grader.


I'm not guessing on the monthly "age up" lists. They are posted every month.

When we see a kid who is playing in a higher age group for the past year (because he/she is ACTUALLY older) & being compared with kids 12-18 mos. younger, we're not conspiracy theorists.

Some of us are merely asking that info be available to give context to the "star ratings" & to the Strength of Schedule ratings.


We do agree that TRN is a great site.

 

[hound 109]

These will be my last comments on the legality issue. As I stated several times, we will look into the idea of sharing age or birth month on the public profile page.

.....

Thanks for your comments & for taking the time to post Dallas. This would be good info for TRN to consider adding to a player's profile.

(or at the very least putting a field in so the player can be add it voluntarily)

.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

These will be my last comments on the legality issue. As I stated several times, we will look into the idea of sharing age or birth month on the public profile page.

There is a fundamental difference between the relationship that the Eddie Herr, USTA, and ITF has with junior players and their families and the relationship that TRN has.

When you enter a tournament, you enter a direct agreement with that tournament and governing organization. You agree to certain terms and conditions, which may include sharing certain information. The parents also grant certain releases.

At TRN, we have profile pages for lots of kids with whom we have no direct relationship at all. And in almost all cases, we are talking about minors.

I don't know what more to say... our friends in the lawyer profession have always cautioned us to tread lightly - and we get legal threats all the time. We are just not going near this issue without a lot more thought.

Best,
Dallas

There are contradictions here. You already give the kids graduating class year. And you say there is no problem with playing the age game, all the kids are close in age.

So if Bob Jones and Sam Adams are both Class of 2014, and all members of the Class of 2014 are the same age.....how is publishing one bit of information any less personal?

You give out their names, where they live, what school they attend, their graduating classes, you give the location of every tournament they play, you rate how strong their schedule is, and you give them star ratings than can affect their future.

Adding an approximate age in quarters is a heck of a lot less intrusive than everything else you already do. Sorry, it just makes no sense. Your liability from all the other specifics is higher as it is even more personal.

 

[mojojojo]

.........................

 

[tennis5]

As they finish growing (girls way earlier than boys) age becomes less important.
/QUOTE]

Another perspective on growth is that for boys, physical maturity is not finished by age 17 ( when most of the kids are graduating).

In the college years, ages 17-21, many boys will grow in height and fill out in weight (muscle).

So, for example, in a hypothetical September of senior year....

a college coach takes a quick glance at two boys who are from the same grade and similar ranking........

and it pops out at him that one boy is just turning 17 years old, and the other boy is turning 19,

I think that would factor into their consideration.

Now, yes, the birthdate is on the confidential page
( and truly if one was worried about identity theft liability, I would use Tennis Coach's great idea of just having the age in years and quarters anywhere on a player's public and private page), but these coaches are busy, and 1/2 the time the assistant is doing the initial review.

 

[hunter]

this year brought some fairly new ncaa rules which concern 'taking a year off' between high school and college. something is different now, and it is not allowed (or you lose a year of eligibility). i am not positive of the exact rules, but these kids may have been "young for their grades" - maybe their plan was to take a year off after high school, and now they cannot, so they made the adjustment now (in middle school) so that they are similar age to their classmates.

 

[mojojojo]

..................

 

[andfor]

Conspiracy Theorists???

My original post discusses (& asks about) the pro's & con's of holding back a 6th or 7th grader.


I'm not guessing on the monthly "age up" lists. They are posted every month.

When we see a kid who is playing in a higher age group for the past year (because he/she is ACTUALLY older) & being compared with kids 12-18 mos. younger, we're not conspiracy theorists.

Some of us are merely asking that info be available to give context to the "star ratings" & to the Strength of Schedule ratings.


We do agree that TRN is a great site.

Dallas logically explaned how kids beteewn 6th and 8th grade correct their age which make them appear to be held back. As opposed to "Conspiracy Theorists" who claim with no evidence that many tennis kids who are home schooled are being held back to game the scholarship system.

Don't take the Conspiracy Theorist thing to hard.

Agreed, TRN is a great site.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Dallas logically explaned how kids beteewn 6th and 8th grade correct their age which make them appear to be held back. As opposed to "Conspiracy Theorists" who claim with no evidence that many tennis kids who are home schooled are being held back to game the scholarship system.

Don't take the Conspiracy Theorist thing to hard.

Agreed, TRN is a great site.

You missed past discussions where we provided specific cases. In one a boy at age 12 was written up in a local paper as being a great student and a tennis phenom. His family was well off, his dad taught tennis at a country club. Several years later he had changed to the Laurel Online School, was a 17.5 year old 10th grader, while working as a tennis pro at his dad's club. Somehow this amazing student at age 12 needed several extra online school years.

There were several cases like this and we barely looked. TRN is a nice site but not posting some sort of age is silly. They give out boat loads of more personal information than that.

 

[tennis5]

Dallas logically explaned how kids beteewn 6th and 8th grade correct their age which make them appear to be held back. As opposed to "Conspiracy Theorists" who claim with no evidence that many tennis kids who are home schooled are being held back to game the scholarship system.

Don't take the Conspiracy Theorist thing to hard.

Agreed, TRN is a great site.

A little confused by your post...

In regards to evidence, there is a sufficient amount of cases in my son's section alone ( and it is not a big section).
Cases where junior is a straight A student who is already one of the oldest in the grade to begin with,
and the parents pull him out of the school district and put him in a new school.
Or, the parents who pull out junior and homeschool and drop him back.
Examples where the kids are 18 months older than the normal age of a grade.

However, I am opposed to posting names of any kids at all on an internet site,
whether to state congrats or as more often done here, in a negative context.
And in all fairness to these kids, this seems to be generated by the parents
as the kids seem generally unhappy with the new change in events for them.

As this site brings parents and juniors together from different sections,
this issue appears to be a pretty widespread, new problem.

Yes, I think TRN is a great site, but I am a believer in offering constructive ideas to organizations,
including the USTA, although on a local level as they are the only ones who listen...
For example, after each sectional tournament that my son attends,
I call with either positive feedback or horror stories.
The horror story tournaments have not received any future sectionals,
so I think people are appreciative of factual information.

And in this case, my examples are factual.

 

[andfor]

My point is I don't believe that kids are being held back is a widespread way for tennis purposes. Same goes for other sports. Does it happen, yes, is it a big problem, no.

Since we are not working with real numbers the whole concept is subjective. For some, if they know of one kid being held back for athletic reasons they may perceive it as a big problem. For other, if they know of a sufficient number of cases they may see that as some kind of issue.

Not trying to be a sarcastic or confrontational.

 

[andfor]

You missed past discussions where we provided specific cases. In one a boy at age 12 was written up in a local paper as being a great student and a tennis phenom. His family was well off, his dad taught tennis at a country club. Several years later he had changed to the Laurel Online School, was a 17.5 year old 10th grader, while working as a tennis pro at his dad's club. Somehow this amazing student at age 12 needed several extra online school years.

There were several cases like this and we barely looked. TRN is a nice site but not posting some sort of age is silly. They give out boat loads of more personal information than that.

I saw that, and think it stinks for that kid. We are not at their house so we don't know what all the circumstances are. I am sure there are cases when kids are held back to game the system, not to help their academic development. Since we are just guessing, my bet is that less than 1% of all the kids that are in the TRN database have been held back under the 9th grade for athletic reasons.

Is it against the rules? No. Does that make it OK? The coaches can figure it out, they can see the birthday.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I saw that, and think it stinks for that kid. We are not at their house so we don't know what all the circumstances are. I am sure there are cases when kids are held back to game the system, not to help their academic development. Since we are just guessing, my bet is that less than 1% of all the kids that are in the TRN database have been held back under the 9th grade for athletic reasons.

Is it against the rules? No. Does that make it OK? The coaches can figure it out, they can see the birthday.

Again, I am missing your point and Dallas's point. If there is no problem and all the kids are the same age....and you already list what graduating class they are in, and what school they go to, and their pictures, and every match they play, and rank their schedules, and rate them as players.

Then why on earth not put the ages? If its only less than 1% abusing the system, fine, just list the ages.

You guys keep saying its not a big problem, maybe so, then adding age when you already list graduating class would be no big deal. And if it discourages a few parents from playing that game, great. If not, it makes it easier for coaches and kids and parents to see where their kid stacks up when biological age is added to the equation.

It makes the site a little better, and if there is no wide spread problem, so be it. There are no downsides. If a kid is older and has a legitimate reason, coaches will learn about it anyway.

 

[andfor]

Again, I am missing your point and Dallas's point. If there is no problem and all the kids are the same age....and you already list what graduating class they are in, and what school they go to, and their pictures, and every match they play, and rank their schedules, and rate them as players.

Then why on earth not put the ages? If its only less than 1% abusing the system, fine, just list the ages.

You guys keep saying its not a big problem, maybe so, then adding age when you already list graduating class would be no big deal. And if it discourages a few parents from playing that game, great. If not, it makes it easier for coaches and kids and parents to see where their kid stacks up when biological age is added to the equation.

It makes the site a little better, and if there is no wide spread problem, so be it. There are no downsides. If a kid is older and has a legitimate reason, coaches will learn about it anyway.

TRN ranks by class. That's what they do and this caters to their primary purpose, college recruitment of graduating H.S. tennis players. The USTA ranks by age groups. I think your ideas are very good ones. Although we can make suggestions to TRN to make what we think are improvements, not all good ideas will be adopted. I think Dallas coming on here and explaining his positions is great. At least he joins the discussion. How often would you see a USTA official come in here, identify themself and participate in the discussion? I have a lot of respect for that and his position.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

TRN ranks by class. That's what they do and this caters to their primary purpose, college recruitment of graduating H.S. tennis players. The USTA ranks by age groups. I think your ideas are very good ones. Although we can make suggestions to TRN to make what we think are improvements, not all good ideas will be adopted. I think Dallas coming on here and explaining his positions is great. At least he joins the discussion. How often would you see a USTA official come in here, identify themself and participate in the discussio? I have a lost of respect for that and his position.

Agreed, it is a great site. I just think it would be cool to see the ages when you pull up the rankings list.

 

[tennis5]

I saw that, and think it stinks for that kid. We are not at their house so we don't know what all the circumstances are. I am sure there are cases when kids are held back to game the system, not to help their academic development. Since we are just guessing, my bet is that less than 1% of all the kids that are in the TRN database have been held back under the 9th grade for athletic reasons.

Is it against the rules? No. Does that make it OK? The coaches can figure it out, they can see the birthday.

Hi Andfor,

With all due respect, I don't believe you have a kid who is a junior...

If it was 1%, no one would be discussing this.

 

[hound 109]

Comments below:

Dallas logically explaned how kids beteewn 6th and 8th grade correct their age which make them appear to be held back.

Yes he did. I knew that & acknowledged that on a previous page. (are you reading this thread?). I'm aware that in middle school that TRN will correct the profiles when they are advised that a young 6th grader (say born in August or Sept) is really an old 5th grader....there are several of these corrections made each year. No big deal. I'm not referring to this type of "correction".

I also was not saying that someone was "held back". I was saying that 4 of the top 10 kids in the section are 12 -18 mos. older than the other kids in the section.

I have no idea if they were "held back", started late, or what. I'm merely stating that 4 of the kids are older. Anyone in my section (playing at their level) knows who the kids are. Dallas (if he has their month/year) knows who they are as well.

As opposed to "Conspiracy Theorists" who claim with no evidence...

I'm not sure what evidence you want. I don't have anyone's BC. & if i had one i wouldn't give it to you.

that many tennis kids who are home schooled....

I never said they are home schooled. I have no idea what they're school situation is. Maybe they flunked, maybe they started late (like justin madison says they do in sweden). What i said.....in my OP.....was that if I was to hold MY kid back I'd have to go "home school" with him (since his MS wouldn't hold a kid back a grade with all A's & a B.)

are being held back to game the scholarship system.

If it's within the rules, one could argue that it's smart to start a kid a year (or year & half) late in Kindergarten.....or hold back a 6th grader? & that it wouldn't be "gaming" the system.

Don't take the Conspiracy Theorist thing to hard.

I thought you said you weren't being sarcastic?

Agreed, TRN is a great site.

It's been my experience that when people attack passively aggressively, using comments like paranoid (or conspiracy), but not offering any info or facts.....then I'm possibly hitting close to home.

I'm the parent of a 12.25 y/o kid (middle of the pack....age wise... 6th grader). I have no idea who you are. Maybe a parent of a 15 y/o 7th grader? Maybe an academy coach who encourages players to be 5 star 9th graders instead of 3 star 10th graders? Feel free to share.....or not.

I'll have other comments responding to your other interesting posts re: "it's not a widespread problem" etc.

 

[andfor]

Comments below:



It's been my experience that when people attack passively aggressively, using comments like paranoid (or conspiracy), but not offering any info or facts.....then I'm possibly hitting close to home.

I'm the parent of a 12.25 y/o kid (middle of the pack....age wise... 6th grader). I have no idea who you are. Maybe a parent of a 15 y/o 7th grader? Maybe an academy coach who encourages players to be 5 star 9th graders instead of 3 star 10th graders? Feel free to share.....or not.

I'll have other comments responding to your other interesting posts re: "it's not a widespread problem" etc.

I'm also not against foreigners playing college tennis and defend the position. Using your logic I guess that must hit close to home for me.

I don't expect nor do I want kids to be named on a website to prove a point.

TRN is based on grade. USTA is based on age. If a person is not satisfied with their kids star rating due to the age issue, then I am sure that kid has a high sectional or national ranking to off-set the TRN issue. Works for me.

 

[cmb]

they dont have to put the birthday...just the birth year....or maybe the month/year. It should be no problem, ITF tennis puts day,month,year...

 

[slice bh compliment]

It is a great idea, but I do see why lawyers aren't fans.
Could be just another 'fun' thing for tennisdorkparents to obsess over.