tennisnoob3
Professional
tbh, with the new rule about high school graduation, it should be an even playing field for most by high school except for the small few who are very late bloomers.
Having a 4 Star (or 3 star) 6th Grader (or 7th grader) repeat their grade?
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I also mentioned this in another post. It was dismissed however with the one-off and mythical 16 year old 8th grader example. I don't have time to find the exact post but that was close to what was mentioned.
Not against the rules....agreed.
College coaches "figuring it out" is irrelevent for 12-16 y/o kids.
Not interested in the (entire) "TRN database". But the 1% number is definitely not the number for Blue Chip & 5 star kids (based on my age up observations). How many sections are there? 13? 15?
In our section, 1 kid went from 4 star to blue chip & 2 kids went from 3 star (& low level 4 star) to 5 star. Assuming that this takes place in all 12 - 14 USTA sections, then possibly as many as 50% of all Blue Chips are OLD kids (12 mos or more) & 30%-50% of the 5 Star are OLD kids.
The percentages are undoubtably lower in 4, 3, & 2 star......but then again THEY don't get the bennies that the 5 star & the Blue Chips get.
So (in each grade).....i wonder how many Blue Chips are OLD? Are there Ten 5 star kids per grade who would be Blue Chip.....if these OLD kids weren't on the list? Are there Five? How about the Five Star kids? Are there 20 Four Star kids who'd be Five Star? Who knows?
I don't know the number & neither do you. You're "betting" less than 1% (of the data base). I'm guessing 40% of Blue Chip kids & possibly 30% of Five Star kids (are OLD). I suppose TRN has the data. But it would be interesting to know how many (& which) kids who are Blue Chip......are 12 mos. or more older than the REST of the Blue Chips in a given grade.
I don't get why folks would be opposed to having accurate information....as opposed to NOT having accurate information. (Unless their kid is an old kid or unless they are training old kids.....& don't want this info known?)
Lots of good points...
I see it in my section ( not a big one), so I think it is going on in all sections.
I think what gets people really riled up is the issue of transparency.
And a perfect example of that is the USTA in that it is not transparent who gets the wild cards...
people would not be angry if they just stated the requirements that are necessary to earn one
( top 4 kids on the lower national list, instead of a really young kid with no ranking...)
And I think Tennis Coach said it should be on the front page, and I agree.
There is no identity theft among age and quarters, 16.25
Why does it matter for 12/16 yr old kids? College coaches figuring it out is absolutely relevant. Actually its what matters on this website. That's why its called Tennis RECRUITING Network.
Maybe some of the Blue Chips and 5 stars are older. Bottomline, they did not become Blue Chips and 5 stars eating pizza and playing video games. Their match results make them the highest rated players.
Let's get something straight. I'm not against posting the ages. However, Dallas Oliver the owner of the website is, he explained his position. I support it.
What is someone going to get out of the ages being there anyway? Is it some sort of egotistical thought process to validate the superiority of their kid so they can then draw imaginary correlations to what their kid would be rated had so-and-so been in such-and-such a grade?
"Bennies" that the 5 star & the Blue Chips get. Tell me about that, what is it they get?
I have to agree.
I think Dallas presented compelling evidence that this is not a widespread problem.
Andfor is correct, whatever the age of the player, they still have to earn their star rating based on their results.
As politely as I can say this, you are missing the whole point.....
Earn their stars....
When you go down a grade,
a 4 star becomes a 5 star,
a 5 star becomes a blue chip.
THIS IS NOT BEING EARNED.
You're missing the point. To become a Blue Chip, 4 and 5 star the player still has to have results
Use the USTA age based rankings to balance against the grade based TRN.
Comments in thread:
It would be nice if folks would share WHY someone has an opinion on a subject. & if they haven't already, state what their situation is (in regards to Junior Tennis). We know TennisCoachFL is a coach & a parent. We know JustinMadison is a parent. I'm a parent of a 12 y/o with a lot to learn & grateful to this site for having the ability to learn many things from folks who've already walked in my shoes.....
....But, i suspect some folks who post on this board are Coaches (or owners) at academies or possibly USTA insiders..... who may have a stake in keeping the status quo (even if the status quo s*cks)....or in keeping people in the dark as THEY already have things "figured out" & don't want others to enjoy a "level playing field". If this is true, it's too bad, because it skews the content & the number opinions posted here.
There are many more Juniors (& parents of Juniors) than there are academy coaches & USTA insiders. But many parents read & don't post. Many are just now trying to figure things out (like i was a year ago). But the opinions of regular juniors (& parents of juniors) are often drowned out by the more vocal minority.....if not, we'd have ages posted on TRN & we'd have 64 draws for 14s - 18s at National L2s & L3s.
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It would be nice if folks would share WHY someone has an opinion on a subject. & if they haven't already, state what their situation is (in regards to Junior Tennis). We know TennisCoachFL is a coach & a parent. We know JustinMadison is a parent. I'm a parent of a 12 y/o with a lot to learn & grateful to this site for having the ability to learn many things from folks who've already walked in my shoes.....
....But, i suspect some folks who post on this board are Coaches (or owners) at academies or possibly USTA insiders..... who may have a stake in keeping the status quo (even if the status quo s*cks)....or in keeping people in the dark as THEY already have things "figured out" & don't want others to enjoy a "level playing field". If this is true, it's too bad, because it skews the content & the number opinions posted here.
There are many more Juniors (& parents of Juniors) than there are academy coaches & USTA insiders. But many parents read & don't post. Many are just now trying to figure things out (like i was a year ago). But the opinions of regular juniors (& parents of juniors) are often drowned out by the more vocal minority.....if not, we'd have ages posted on TRN & we'd have 64 draws for 14s - 18s at National L2s & L3s.
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I'm not against non-americans playing US college tennis. I'm against having more than ONE non-american receiving a tennis scholarship (per gender) on a college team (at least in my state) at any given time. But what does that have to do with this thread??
Unless the point of this comment is to illustrate that the majority of non-americans receiving Tennis scholarships are OVER 12 mos. older than their American HS senior competitors?
If so, good point. NO WONDER some american parents are holding back middle school kids a grade (or two)......it would finally put some american kids on a "level playing field" at HS graduation...... with the 19 & 20 y/o eastern european & scandinavian kids who are competing for that same scholarship.
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If the repeating of a grade takes place at age 12 (or if parents start a kid in school one year later than his age peers), then it WOULD NOT be an even playing field in 9 - 10 years down the road in HS.
This "new rule" which penalizes kids who repeat a grade in HS......only pertains to the 4 years in HS.....not BEFORE HS.
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Comments below:
Why does it matter for 12/16 yr old kids? College coaches figuring it out is absolutely relevant. Actually its what matters on this website. That's why its called Tennis RECRUITING Network.
Again....if all that matters (regarding TRN) is college recruitment, then there's no reason to post rankings for kids under 10th grade.
Maybe some of the Blue Chips and 5 stars are older. Bottomline, they did not become Blue Chips and 5 stars eating pizza and playing video games. Their match results make them the highest rated players.
Bottom line - A 13.5 y/o "6th grader" with an average to good record against other 13-14 y/o kids (who are 7th & 8th graders) will be a 5 star (or blue chip). While a 11.75 y/o or 12.0 year old "6th grader" who wins 90% of his matches against kids his age will probably be a 4 star.
Bottom line - If you're held back a grade, you're TRN star rating will go UP (based on my observation) approx. 1.5 stars.
(a high level 4 star 7th grader if held back becomes a blue chip 6th grader. A low level 4 star 8th grader if held back becomes a high level 5 star 7th grader.)
Let's get something straight. I'm not against posting the ages. However, Dallas Oliver the owner of the website is, he explained his position. I support it.
Cool. If Dallas decides to post ages (preferably in month/year or quarter years) on his site then we'll both support it.
& i also support Dallas's position to want to consider these opinions.....since he had mentioned in another post that he hadn't thought of TRN being a resource for 9th grade & under competitive juniors until recently.
What is someone going to get out of the ages being there anyway?
Accurate info. The ability to compare apples to apples.
& What do people get if their kid is a Blue Chip....or Five Star? (& even a 4 star) ??:
- Free or reduced tennis training (for the Juniors) Possibly even higher level training opportunities.
- For Academies - they advertise (by word of mouth) the number of 4, 5 star (or blue chip) players they have & use it as a marketing tool.
- For Parents - less money spent for little johnny's lessons & drills.
Is it some sort of egotistical thought process to validate the superiority of their kid so they can then draw imaginary correlations to what their kid would be rated had so-and-so been in such-and-such a grade?
"Bennies" that the 5 star & the Blue Chips get. Tell me about that, what is it they get?
See above. If a very fine academy (with great instruction & good kids) charge $800 a month for the average schmo.....they might offer $400 a month to a 5 star. (maybe free to a blue chip).
$6000 per year here......$6000 per year there......pretty soon you're talking about REAL money.
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Playing kids in higher grades skews the star ratings to the good (as it should be). It's easier for a talented 14 year old to play another 14 year old (day in & day out) than it is for a talented 12 y/o to play a collection of 14 y/o.
It's good for the 12 y/o to play up.....but it's no big deal for the 14 y/o to play other 14 y/o's. (& if HE "plays up" & knocks off 15 or 16 y/o's.....then he looks like a world beater....& TRN algorithyms identifies him as one....as compared to the average 12 y/o.). Thus the 4 star 7th grader becoming a Blue Chip 6th grader with the swipe of a pen. (or the punch of a keystroke)
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I am a regular parent and not an USTA insider. I am for posting ages on TRN but against 64 draws for National L2&L3s. You need to earn your right to go to the National tournaments by working hard. If you cannot qualify and are forced to play the same 10 local players all the time then keep doing it until you figure out a way to beat them. When you qualify you know that there will be no easy rounds. If you are from a weaker section but below the "National level" then you will have your butt kicked and you will go home without wins. Maybe you will think twice next time before going. If you are from a very strong section you have ample opportunities for free outdoor training and good local competition. Just go out and practice, ask your parents to feed you some balls. National tournaments is not a pre-requisite for tennis development. There are Blue Chips out there who never played National tournaments or played very few of them.
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Thanks Klu.
I don't agree with you on the 64 vrs. 32 draw issue.....but i respect & understand your position.
(& obviously we agree on age disclosure)
Didn't mean to hijack my own thread on the 64 vrs. 32 issue.
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
The only sentence in this post that made any sense was the “I am a regular parent and not an USTA insider”
Playing kids in higher grades skews the star ratings to the good (as it should be). It's easier for a talented 14 year old to play another 14 year old (day in & day out) than it is for a talented 12 y/o to play a collection of 14 y/o.
It's good for the 12 y/o to play up.....but it's no big deal for the 14 y/o to play other 14 y/o's. (& if HE "plays up" & knocks off 15 or 16 y/o's.....then he looks like a world beater....& TRN algorithyms identifies him as one....as compared to the average 12 y/o.). Thus the 4 star 7th grader becoming a Blue Chip 6th grader with the swipe of a pen. (or the punch of a keystroke)
You seem a bit overly obsessed with this "issue". My son is a class of 2015 "4star" last I checked. He competes day in and day out against kids +/- 1.5 years his age and of different graduating classes. In my son's case there is no clear correlation in his win-loss record with opponents' age or "star" rating. He's pretty successful against 3-stars or less, but it's a crap shoot between 4 and BC. What do I think it all means and what "star" rating should he be assigned? My math is pretty good, but best I can come up with is "it depends on the day". Statistics lie, and can be misleading and self-serving. It is mind boggling to me that some folks are taking this or any other ranking system serious enough to game a young child's upbringing around it with academics as an afterthought.
In your case, I suggest you choose tournaments judiciously to ensure your kid will benefit from playing anyone in the draw. If he gets smoked once or twice by a kid two years older, so what?? He's still 12 right? Just make sure he works hard if tennis is his thing and all this nonsense will seem moot by the time he gets to high school.
One other thought, I suggest you be careful about discussing this perceived "uneven playing field" with your kid, to the point where it will mess up his head. Kids being kids, they will look up their opponents rating before a match; what they see WILL affect how much they "believe" going in (self-fulfilling). You could very well be unwittingly teaching your kid another excuse, one that you the parent validated... And if this ranking service ends up posting age, even approximate, I can just hear it now "... but, but he's got one more star and is 1.679 years older than me"
.Well, then I guess I am obsessed too...
But, not only with the issue of no transparency in regards to age...
I probably should add to my list, the complaints with the USTA:
- The way wild cards are handed out to.
- The new rules to reduce the draws, so it is impossible to age up
0H.... UNLESS YOU GET ONE OF THE WILD CARDS, WHICH THEY DID INCREASE.
- The salary of the USTA CEO, when I don't know at least 5 million should be going to poor, underprivileged kids who have never held a tennis racquet!!!!!
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Again, it is very hard to have a rational, educational debate on this site when either people are:
1) mocking the process
2) ignorant of the facts
3) selective reading of the thread
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT KIDS ( REALLY PARENTS ) WHO CHANGE THE GRADE TO MANIPULATE THE SYSTEM AND THERE IS NO TRANSPARENCY ABOUT THE ACTUAL AGE OF THE JUNIOR.
Andfor, do you actively follow TRN every week?
Have you ever spent at least a year following how this works?
Do you have a junior in the process?
Where do you get your facts?
This is ridiculous....
Having a conversation with you is like having a conversation with someone who have never been to a junior tournament and says there is no cheating... ( actually, that sounds like a USTA employee).
Ok... you state:
"To become a Blue Chip, 4 and 5 star the player still has to have results"
Let me make it easy for you to follow:
A 9th grader who was a 5 star player goes down a grade to 8th grade,
now if he beats the same 9th grade 5 star player,
as an 8th grader that is a blue chip win.
So, the results are not the same.
You seem a bit overly obsessed with this "issue". My son is a class of 2015 "4star" last I checked.
I don't know....i think i'm obsessed because people (at least the 2 or 3 posters) are not wanting ages disclosed. I consider this the "issue". I'm also kind of tired of some Academies (at least some that i'm aware of) that seem to play games with some of their kid's ages & seem to have an influence with decisions made in our Section.
He competes day in and day out against kids +/- 1.5 years his age and of different graduating classes. In my son's case there is no clear correlation in his win-loss record with opponents' age or "star" rating. He's pretty successful against 3-stars or less, but it's a crap shoot between 4 and BC. What do I think it all means and what "star" rating should he be assigned? My math is pretty good, but best I can come up with is "it depends on the day".
Your kid is two years older than mine with similar results in tournaments & similar work load. But i don't see a "crap shoot" in regards to TRN....I see a corelation between consistently "playing up" & higher ratings. (which is probably logical).
Statistics lie, and can be misleading and self-serving.
I agree.
It is mind boggling to me that some folks are taking this or any other ranking system serious enough to game a young child's upbringing around it with academics as an afterthought.
I agree. When i saw that 3 (or possibly 4) kids in our section were having this done to their upbringing, i decided to post. I was curious if this goes on in other sections.
In your case, I suggest you choose tournaments judiciously to ensure your kid will benefit from playing anyone in the draw. If he gets smoked once or twice by a kid two years older, so what?? He's still 12 right? Just make sure he works hard if tennis is his thing and all this nonsense will seem moot by the time he gets to high school.
Good advice. My kid plays 1-2 tournaments a month. (Half 12s & half 14s). He occasionally gets smoked...no problem...sometimes he learns from it, sometimes not.
But seriously....i'm not obsessed. I just like to bring odd things (like 14 year old 6th graders) out in the open.....& i like to see if others have seen it.
Next week's obsession will be.... why are there are 3 National Tournaments in July (Four, if you count the Team Zonal event....which i do......), & none in June? :twisted:
One other thought, I suggest you be careful about discussing this perceived "uneven playing field" with your kid, to the point where it will mess up his head.
I NEVER talk about rankings (TRN or USTA) to the kid.....& being in 12s, rankings often go out the window once the play starts.
Kids being kids, they will look up their opponents rating before a match; what they see WILL affect how much they "believe" going in (self-fulfilling). You could very well be unwittingly teaching your kid another excuse, one that you the parent validated... And if this ranking service ends up posting age, even approximate, I can just hear it now "... but, but he's got one more star and is 1.679 years older than me"
Even if i shared my thoughts (which i don't)....my kid thinks I'm pretty lame (& rarely listens to me)
. If he thinks of his opponents at all, he might look at who his opponents have played & how they did & then watches them play. At the top of a section everyone knows everyone anyway. He doesn't give a rat about TRN.... but DOES want a higher USTA ranking than his doubles buddy (partner)....which is probably his biggest motivator.
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If I were you I would question this sentence too.
I can gladly continue this discussion but probably in a different thread. I hope in Sweden anyone can play National tournaments as much as they want.
tennis5 & i keep tilting at windmills.
I'll add having 3 National tournaments in July (& none in June)....
...& having 3 of the 4 L1 Nationals in the South (at least in my kid's group)....
....& not having the Spring L1 over Spring Break in March (like they did for the 18s).
& isn't the purpose of specialty forum on the internets is that it allows folks to b*tch & moan?
I'll add having 3 National tournaments in July (& none in June)....
...& having 3 of the 4 L1 Nationals in the South (at least in my kid's group)....
....& not having the Spring L1 over Spring Break in March (like they did for the 18s).
& isn't the purpose of specialty forum on the internets is that it allows folks to b*tch & moan?
Interesting observation though on some of the kids who move down a grade.
Somehow, their playing, well actually the winning, goes down.
The kids they use to be able to beat, they now are losing to.
I am not sure if they are unhappy to be a different grade,
or they feel like their parents had to do something extra for them,
but it seems to affect them mentally and that in turn affects the tennis.
Somehow, their playing, well actually the winning, goes down.
The kids they use to be able to beat, they now are losing to.
I am not sure if they are unhappy to be a different grade,
or they feel like their parents had to do something extra for them,
but it seems to affect them mentally and that in turn affects the tennis.
You seem a bit overly obsessed with this "issue". My son is a class of 2015 "4star" last I checked. He competes day in and day out against kids +/- 1.5 years his age and of different graduating classes. In my son's case there is no clear correlation in his win-loss record with opponents' age or "star" rating. He's pretty successful against 3-stars or less, but it's a crap shoot between 4 and BC. What do I think it all means and what "star" rating should he be assigned? My math is pretty good, but best I can come up with is "it depends on the day". Statistics lie, and can be misleading and self-serving. It is mind boggling to me that some folks are taking this or any other ranking system serious enough to game a young child's upbringing around it with academics as an afterthought.
In your case, I suggest you choose tournaments judiciously to ensure your kid will benefit from playing anyone in the draw. If he gets smoked once or twice by a kid two years older, so what?? He's still 12 right? Just make sure he works hard if tennis is his thing and all this nonsense will seem moot by the time he gets to high school.
One other thought, I suggest you be careful about discussing this perceived "uneven playing field" with your kid, to the point where it will mess up his head. Kids being kids, they will look up their opponents rating before a match; what they see WILL affect how much they "believe" going in (self-fulfilling). You could very well be unwittingly teaching your kid another excuse, one that you the parent validated... And if this ranking service ends up posting age, even approximate, I can just hear it now "... but, but he's got one more star and is 1.679 years older than me"
This is the best post, other than Dallas's.
Since the subtle calling out (like it matters) is turned now blatent calling out, I'll tell you the following. I do follow TRN. I have a membership. I have a child who plays. His age has nothing to do with my position. His playing ability will not change based on his Star ranking. It will change if he improves or does not improve.
The primary purpose I use the site for is as a tool to help him identify colleges that would be the best fit for him. We also use it to look up other players results, not what star another player is. Looking up rankings for the player is a slippery slope. I do most of that for myself.
Claims of widespread grading down and that Blue Chips pay less for lessons etc. is all hogwash. Kids working hard, improving and gaining results will prove out in the end. Mythically associated freebies from grading down is not the end game nor is it something players should wrap themself up in worrying about. I encourage my tennis playing child to focus not on TRN or rankings but what he can do every day to improve.
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TennisCoachFLA
Banned
I think you guys are over thinking this posting age thing. Its not about excuses or anything. Its just information that would be neat to know.
Junior tennis is all about age ranges, the entire system is based on 10s, 12s, 14s, 16s, 18s. So if your kid is Class of 2014 its nice to know how he fits in with the age. Is the kid he beat and 'old 16 or a young 14.5"? Parents are aiming for college scholarships in some cases, it would be a nice little bit of info to have.
Its would just be cool to have there. Parents who raise kids to make excuses do so anyway, those who don't do so anyway. Geez, just put the stupid ages on there and improve the site a little.
Junior tennis is all about age ranges, the entire system is based on 10s, 12s, 14s, 16s, 18s. So if your kid is Class of 2014 its nice to know how he fits in with the age. Is the kid he beat and 'old 16 or a young 14.5"? Parents are aiming for college scholarships in some cases, it would be a nice little bit of info to have.
Its would just be cool to have there. Parents who raise kids to make excuses do so anyway, those who don't do so anyway. Geez, just put the stupid ages on there and improve the site a little.
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chalkflewup
Hall of Fame
I like the smaller draws as well - cut right to the chase. You have to Smith Barney your way in and earn it.
Over thinking? Never cared, haven't looked up the site in months until today reading these posts. I do admit I was a bit fascinated when my kid was about 10 but have long since come to the conclusion that the system is fundamentally flawed and potentially misleading especially in the younger age groups.
What you're after probably makes sense for a kid playing 16-18's but the OP is talking about a 12-year old for crying out loud. Seems the folks here are not just looking for a "neat" improvement, they are demanding "fairness". Just to put this in another context, the algorithm behind the BCS ranking is probably orders of magnitude more complicated than this and still people aren't happy with the results. It is all very subjective in the end and no one would bother getting worked up over this if they understand and accept it for what it is.
Hey just noticed today that it is now the "ADNA" recruiting list and the "IMG" tennis RPI. Impressive :shock:.
chalkflewup
Hall of Fame
I agree that it could be a useful way to gauge where kids stack up to others based on actual age. My gut is TRN is concerned with exposing PII.
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
Again, lets keep it simple. I truly could care less about the motivation of anyone. It would be nice to see the ages when you pulled up the Class of rankings. Its that simple.
It gives out no information nearly as intrusive as telling what school a kid goes to or posting their pictures. They already give what graduating class they are in, giving ages would be a nice touch.
I think it would be nice if they showed the age. They're not so TRN for Grade based rankings, USTA for age based rankings.
Here's an idea. For those not satisfied with their chip/star rating and not willing to grade their kid down, try this. Play up instead. Wouldn't you get the same result as grading down and be doing it on the "up and up"? However, if this is not to your liking and one of your competitors does this with success, which I am sure some are doing, should TRN note that a player is playing up?
Everything is just so unfair.........JK
Here's an idea. For those not satisfied with their chip/star rating and not willing to grade their kid down, try this. Play up instead. Wouldn't you get the same result as grading down and be doing it on the "up and up"? However, if this is not to your liking and one of your competitors does this with success, which I am sure some are doing, should TRN note that a player is playing up?
Everything is just so unfair.........JK
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
The guys arguing against it make no sense. Just ignore it if you don't think it matters. And TRN makes no sense, they already give out information way more intrusive than age. I just clicked through the top players of the Class of 2014....every one has their picture, where they go to school, their class, the town they live in. Its public, you don't even log in to see it.
Anyone could go right to their dang school and pick them out of the hall way for goodness sakes just from looking at their profiles. So giving an age is a privacy issue? Give me a break.
Anyone could go right to their dang school and pick them out of the hall way for goodness sakes just from looking at their profiles. So giving an age is a privacy issue? Give me a break.
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
There are two European-wide junior tennis circuits. They have designed the programs to eliminate many of the issues that have been identified with the USTA system.
There is the ITF circuit. ITF does not segregate by age, it segregates by skill. They have 6 different levels of tournament with each providing points toward a single ranking system. In June there are 16 ITF tournaments in Europe all with qualifying draws.
There is the TennisEurope circuit. This program has age groups but also has a single age ranking system. They make this work by lowering the number of points awarded for 14s and 16s age divisions. In June there are 22 16s age group tournaments, all with qualifying draws.
They do not try to limit exposure to the best players in Europe. With 38 tournaments to choose from in June, all with qualifying draws, anyone can play.
Aging up is not a problem. You do not age up in ITF and you keep your points in TennisEurope. The easy access to tournaments with qualifying draws and the significant overlap in skill between the levels eliminates this problem completely.
There are no issues with weaker sections or stronger sections limiting play or causing imbalances at the higher levels. There are no sections. If there is a tournament with “easier” points more people go there and the points become “harder” to obtain. Self correcting.
Just for fun do a search on TennisLink for USTA national tournaments in June.
The absence of June Nationals may have been mentioned earlier. Is a possible explanation for the lack of June National tournaments possibly the USTA allowing room for the State Qualifiers and Sectional Championships?
May I ask where what his major was, and if he played on scholarship where he ended up?
Looks like a very good system. I bet the school year in Europe ends in May and not in the second half of June like here. It sounds like you can play tournaments at you leasure whenever it is convenient.
But you can use the current USTA system as a motivator. Our kids can use a little adversity. This is what I did. I explained to my player that "rules are changing for tennis" and if you do not step up you will be on the outside looking in. We did engage in some point chasing doing long drives and even flying to L2 and L3 that we have never done before but the outcome was positive. She got more serious and wants it more now.
No Nationals in June? You need to practice sometimes. See what all this competition has done to Wozniacki. She also needs to take June off and work on all these shots that she does not own
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
Nice post sir. In the past TRN has taken a stance on this and to be honest, they are just being stubborn in my opinion.
The arguments against posting age make zero sense. As you and I agree, they post way more personal information than age. A birthdate is a simple date, there is nothing harmful anyone can do with such a piece of information....yet they post where these children attend school. A physical location is 10000 times more personal than an age and would cause them more liability issues.
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Your statement would have been true in my high school three decades back, but bears no resemblance to the AP classes I have seen for my sons. As schools compete on a quantitative basis, one of the measurements is AP test scores. What percent of students got a 5, a 4, etc. on the test compared to another school. They teach directly to the test. They stop teaching new material a month before the end of the year, or more, and just start reviewing like crazy for the test. They take old AP tests from a few years back that are available. I think it is all pretty questionable, but I bet most parents want the test scores any way they can get them.
Therefore, I don't buy the generalization that home schoolers are studying for AP tests while public and private school kids are engaged in the purity of learning for the sake of learning. I would like to see a public statement from just one public school in the entire nation that they do not teach AP courses directly to the test, but just expect students to do test-specific studying on their own time.
So, I look at a kid's page today and he is 15 years old. I look tomorrow and he is 15.25. I think I know his birthday now.
The information is available to coaches, and people still want to whine. The truth is that American tennis is full of whiners, more so the parents than the kids. We are a nation of whiners. Sickening.
1) What does No Child Left Behind (NCLB) have to do with AP test scores? NCLB uses standardized tests of various sorts to evaluate overall school performance, but not AP tests, so it does not belong in this discussion.
2) NCLB was passed by the U.S. Congress. The bumbling Bush cannot pass legislation, He worked in the executive branch. Perhaps American voters can learn to parcel out responsibility to everyone actually involved, which included Bush (for negotiating the outline of NCLB with Teddy Kennedy and then endorsing it) and all those who voted for it, especially those like Kennedy who championed it through the legislative process. I hope you don't teach American Government.
Maybe there is no rampant problem, but if one kid every five years is a problem, we can whine about for five years until the next such kid comes along.
In which case, he will have long since dropped out of the TRN rankings by the time he graduates, and his ranking would have started showing the age problem by the time he finished 11th grade, as Dallas already pointed out. He would not be able to play USTA tournaments the summer after 11th grade, which is prime recruiting age. His birthdate would be available to all coaches in the system. They would worry about what he is going to do during senior year to keep his game prepared for college, and they would worry that he will not have the same potential for physical improvement during the college years as players who enter two years younger than he is.
If we are going to deal with a single example, maybe the single example should include how great a deal the player got in his college recruiting and how the college coach got hoodwinked by his online graduation year. If that did not happen, then we have zero examples where this trickery worked well in the college recruiting game.
Schools, pictures, coaches, and academies are provided voluntarily by players. It would be hard for TRN to have legal liability for such info. Allowing players to post their birth month & year voluntarily would IMO lead to not many doing so, and the ones who are older whom you are interested in would certainly be among the many who would not do so. That leaves only the possibility of TRN doing it without anyone's consent, which brings up issues of legal liability per Dallas' conversations with lawyers. Voluntary: no big legal issue. Involuntary: legal issues. Seems pretty simple.
Maybe if you sign a contract binding you to pay legal fees for any lawsuits that are based on posting fairly precise ages, TRN would do so. If, as you say, it is absurd to think that there will be such suits, then you should have no problem signing such an agreement.
ITF info is provided voluntarily and players who pay to be part of ITF and get an IPIN sign releases concerning such things.
Meanwhile, the letter of intent information is posted voluntarily by at least one of the parties to the LOI contract. However, the amount of scholarship money involved is private.
Some things are voluntarily provided to the public. When it is voluntary, no problem. People are asking for involuntary disclosure of info, and continually comparing it to voluntary disclosures.
Interesting quote. Clark, where did it come from? (i looked thru this thread & couldn't find this....maybe i missed it?) Did it come from Dallas this month?
I see more whining (& more posts) from folks who DON'T want transparency than from those who'd like to see the age posted.
Every time I hear from the same people that 19 y/o seniors (& 13 y/o 6th grader) isn't a rampant problem.....makes me wonder what the real data would reveal.
I was just going through the thread, many pages all at once. I will see if I can find it again.
It is not whining to disagree with someone. I would be fine with seeing birthdays, but when Dallas explained the conversations he has had with lawyers, I put myself in his shoes and that was the end of the issue for me. The bottom line for a business like TRN is that posting birthdays will NOT draw lots more paying members or site views, but MIGHT lead to legal problems. The job of TRN is to provide recruiting info, not to police the whole world of tennis and deal with hypothetical situations in which some kid gets half-priced training somewhere, etc.
Besides, my 18 year old 8th grader is beating the stuffings out of those poor kids in his grade and I think the system works great.
(Just kidding, of course. My kid is in the proper grade and not even ranked due to 18 months of injury troubles.)Page 4, post 68, second half of post.
Hi Clark,
First, hope your son gets better soon..
Second, my son attends private school..
Entrance into an AP class or honors class is not a given, it must be approved.
And my statement was based on my son's school, so I stand corrected if not all schools are similar.
Gosh, my first I am wrong posting... Hope this is not a trend
If I know a couple of kids in my son's section ( and it is not a big section), I would think this problem would be similar in other sections.
The thread was started asking this question,
and the response from parents with juniors has stated it is not a 1% problem.
Agreed, American tennis is full of whiners.
1) Shell out a thousand dollars to fly to a tournament, rent a car, stay in a motel...
Junior is cheated in the first round, and the line judge is having his lunch break.
2) Invest all this money in the sport ( thousands) and they change the rules in the middle of the game on you.
3) The organization you would like to complain to is a good old boy network and you are on the outside.
4) Lack of transparency in regards to ages.
The above seems unfair and unjust to me.
I don't think it is whining to talk about what should be changed.
I think we are lucky that Dallas at least comes on this board, and has a discussion.
I complained last year to the National office about a national tournament ( the ref was the boy's coach),
and guess what, this facility has the tennis tournament again this year!
So, yeah, I do want to complain about it, but no one is listening...
That would be an interesting thread, "Best and Worst Tournament Experiences"
My only question is would you name the sites?
