Having a 4 Star (or 3 star) 6th Grader (or 7th grader) repeat their grade?

[tennisnoob3]

Agreed, American tennis is full of whiners.

1) Shell out a thousand dollars to fly to a tournament, rent a car, stay in a motel...
Junior is cheated in the first round, and the line judge is having his lunch break.

2) Invest all this money in the sport ( thousands) and they change the rules in the middle of the game on you.

3) The organization you would like to complain to is a good old boy network and you are on the outside.

4) Lack of transparency in regards to ages.

The above seems unfair and unjust to me.
I don't think it is whining to talk about what should be changed.

I think we are lucky that Dallas at least comes on this board, and has a discussion.
I complained last year to the National office about a national tournament ( the ref was the boy's coach),
and guess what, this facility has the tennis tournament again this year!
So, yeah, I do want to complain about it, but no one is listening...

That would be an interesting thread, "Best and Worst Tournament Experiences"
My only question is would you name the sites?

lolwut? kids who are truly the best will rise to the top. getting cheated in the first round wouldnt happen unless it was a close match or the kid is a pushover and lets it happen instead of refusing to play until a line judge appears or learns to "cheat back" to warn the other player.

how have the rules changed???

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Schools, pictures, coaches, and academies are provided voluntarily by players. It would be hard for TRN to have legal liability for such info. Allowing players to post their birth month & year voluntarily would IMO lead to not many doing so, and the ones who are older whom you are interested in would certainly be among the many who would not do so. That leaves only the possibility of TRN doing it without anyone's consent, which brings up issues of legal liability per Dallas' conversations with lawyers. Voluntary: no big legal issue. Involuntary: legal issues. Seems pretty simple.

Maybe if you sign a contract binding you to pay legal fees for any lawsuits that are based on posting fairly precise ages, TRN would do so. If, as you say, it is absurd to think that there will be such suits, then you should have no problem signing such an agreement.

Makes no sense at all. All that other information is way more personal. It allows a predator to find the kid at his school.

Common sense. If I volunteer information on how to physically locate my child AND post his picture, if I sue for something silly like his age being posted a judge would laugh me out of court. There is no basis for any such suit and it would be thrown out. This is so silly. The ages should of course be posted. Its a total no brainer.

Not one person can tell me how an age causes any liability? For what? How? Makes no sense at all. If you volunteer or don't volunteer the information, that is irrelevant. There is no 'harm' that it could cause.

The opponents are talking utter nonsense. The TRN system rates players and schedules, it assigns stars that could ruin a kid's future. Any parent could sue and say the system is flawed and it hurt their kid. The chances of that lawsuit is 10000000000 times greater than someone suing because they posted an age next to his graduating class year

I agree with hound.....lots of "whining" from the opponents. On one hand they say there is no problem, on the other they say don't post the ages. If ALL the kids are the same age then who would be suing for posting ages??? In all the kids in the Class of 2015 are 15 than the ages are no big deal. Geez, make just a tad of sense here please.

 

[tennis5]

lolwut? kids who are truly the best will rise to the top. getting cheated in the first round wouldnt happen unless it was a close match or the kid is a pushover and lets it happen instead of refusing to play until a line judge appears or learns to "cheat back" to warn the other player.

how have the rules changed???

THIS IS YOUR ADVICE? "LEARN HOW TO CHEAT BACK"

I HOPE YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS... GREAT LIFE LESSONS YOU TEACH...

WHAT TOURNAMENTS DO YOU GO TO?

LAST NATIONAL TOURNAMENT, WE HAD ONE REF....

AT THESE SMALL DRAWS, NO MATCH IS A BLOW OUT, A LOT OF THEM GO TO A THIRD SET.

KIDS DON'T CHEAT ALL THE WAY THROUGH, THEY CHEAT ON THE IMPORTANT POINTS.

REFUSING TO PLAY???? REFS ONLY HAVE TO WATCH 3 GAMES OF A MATCH.

 

[tennis5]

how have the rules changed???[/QUOTE]

How have the rules changed?

You didn't notice the huge changes for 2011?

http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Junior-Competition/2011changesannouncement/

Educate yourself.

 

[Soianka]

POSTED BY HOUND109:He didn't provide "compelling evidence". He didn't even share an opinion.

Dallas said: These comments seem misleading to me. As of today, all of the top ten sophomore boys are 16 years old. None of them are 18.25 years old. (?) Likewise, all of the top seniors are 18 or younger. All of the top juniors are 17 or younger.

That seems pretty compelling to me.

This discussion does seem like something only obsessive tennis parents would worry about.

This is a big "so what??"

Any tennis coach is going to look at the age of the player and their record. If the old players records is better than your kid, oh well. If not, why are you worried about it?

It's not like 21 or 25 year olds can pose as seniors in high school.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I found 2 cases of guys who were going to be 20 days after they 'graduated' from online high school, listed with boys age 17. One of the boys was a great student at age 12 and magically became dumb for 2 years. Other posters know many other cases.

Dallas is wrong, it is an issue. Several of us know multiple cases.

 

[BSPE84]

I found 2 cases of guys who were going to be 20 days after they 'graduated' from online high school, listed with boys age 17. One of the boys was a great student at age 12 and magically became dumb for 2 years. Other posters know many other cases.

Dallas is wrong, it is an issue. Several of us know multiple cases.

First question from recruiter: "soooo, played any USTA tournament last couple of years?"

 

[justinmadison]

Boys do not peak in tennis before the age of 24. If a kid is held back for 2 years in elementary or junior high his game he will still peak after his senior year in college. How many times have we all talked about how unfair it is for European players to come to the US and start college as a 21 or 22 year old? The reason we complain is because they are more mature physically, mentally, and technically. If a kid is held back and cannot compete in USTA juniors but continues to play futures and other high level open tournaments that player, everything else being equal, will be better than a 17 year old who is playing USTA junior tennis.

You are kidding yourself if you think college coaches do not want an older more mature player. On court and off court the older kid will be a better player. There is no reason the older player would not continue to improve just as fast as or faster than the 17 year old player. He will just start from a higher level.

 

[tennisnoob3]

how have the rules changed???[/QUOTE]

How have the rules changed?

You didn't notice the huge changes for 2011?

http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Junior-Competition/2011changesannouncement/

Educate yourself.

oh that, thats pretty minor really and its a point system/tournament change.....the best will still win. it just prevents point chasing families, LIKE YOU, from wasting thousands of dollars going around the country to lose in the first round.

"cheating back" is only a point to send a signal to the player, not the entire game. unless you really want your kid to go over there and call out the other kid on being a cheater, in which he'll probably smile and laugh and continue doing it.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

First question from recruiter: "soooo, played any USTA tournament last couple of years?"

Junior tennis is predicated on AGES from the time kids start to hit the radar. 4 year old tennis prodigy, 7 year old tennis wunderkind, Little Mos 8s, USTA 10s, 12s, 14s, 16s. 18s. It is based on AGE as much or more as any sport ever conceived of by human beings.

TRN is a site dedicated to junior tennis, recruiting, tips, news, etc. The site has branched out past simple college recruiting, they offer all sorts of other tools, news, and information. They give out very personal information about the kids, they rate the kids.

This is such a no brainer it cracks me up. A kid's sport based on ages from day 1, a site dedicated to junior tennis.....and people argue it should not mention ages? That is beyond silly.

This argument is great entertainment, it makes totally no sense to oppose ages on TRN! Who cares about what college recruiters would ask, who cares anyone's motivation for having ages there, that is not relevant. What is relevant is that the entire junior tennis thing is BASED on the kid's ages!

 

[watergirl]

I know of 5 kids in TX that completed 8th grade and have "homeschooled" a year and will now start highschool as Freshman (though they should be sophmores). Two of these kids were ranked in the top 10 of the section before aging up. The question is - now that TR has them as 8th graders rather than 9th graders, are they awarded more "points" when they beat a 9th grader of equal stars or if they lose to a 9th grader with a lower ranking is that 9th grader awarded less "POINT" because the kid is an 8th grader versus a 9th grader?

 

[andfor]

Junior tennis is predicated on AGES from the time kids start to hit the radar. 4 year old tennis prodigy, 7 year old tennis wunderkind, Little Mos 8s, USTA 10s, 12s, 14s, 16s. 18s. It is based on AGE as much or more as any sport ever conceived of by human beings.

TRN is a site dedicated to junior tennis, recruiting, tips, news, etc. The site has branched out past simple college recruiting, they offer all sorts of other tools, news, and information. They give out very personal information about the kids, they rate the kids.

This is such a no brainer it cracks me up. A kid's sport based on ages from day 1, a site dedicated to junior tennis.....and people argue it should not mention ages? That is beyond silly.

This argument is great entertainment, it makes totally no sense to oppose ages on TRN! Who cares about what college recruiters would ask, who cares anyone's motivation for having ages there, that is not relevant. What is relevant is that the entire junior tennis thing is BASED on the kid's ages!

Coach, I'm not trying to bust on you. With respect.......

True, junior tennis is based on age. For the most part college tennis is not. The NCAA 4 years to complete H.S. with the clock starting at the H.S. freshman year rule and the rule of having to start your D1 tennis career 6 months from graduating H.S., again, for the most part takes out age as a factor. That means the vast majority of college D1 freshman will be between 18 or 19 when they start. Some will be 17, and again, since we have no real numbers, even less will start as 20 year olds with a full 4 years of eligibility.

For kicks I'd like to know the number 20 or 21 yr old D1 tennis players who start as Freshman with a full 4 years of eligibility. It would have a be a minuscule percentage.

I'll say it again, I think posting the ages on TRN would be good. That's where it ends for me. For me on TRN I find knowing the kids age a non-issue. Since Dallas came on here and said he already deals with parents threatening to sue for other reasons, and his lawyers have recommended against posting ages, why continue to press the issue?

What about my idea for those dissatisfied with their kids TRN rating to "play up" to counter those who are graded down. I realize some will say they should not have to do that, never the less, wouldn't it work?

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Coach, I'm not trying to bust on you. With respect.......

True, junior tennis is based on age. For the most part college tennis is not. The NCAA 4 years to complete H.S. with the clock starting at the H.S. freshman year rule and the rule of having to start your D1 tennis career 6 months from graduating H.S., again, for the most part takes out age as a factor. That means the vast majority of college D1 freshman will be between 18 or 19 when they start. Some will be 17, and again, since we have no real numbers, even less will start as 20 year olds with a full 4 years of eligibility.

For kicks I'd like to know the number 20 or 21 yr old D1 tennis players who start as Freshman with a full 4 years of eligibility. It would have a be a minuscule percentage.

I'll say it again, I think posting the ages on TRN would be good. That's where it ends for me. For me on TRN I find knowing the kids age a non-issue. Since Dallas came on here and said he already deals with parents threatening to sue for other reasons, and his lawyers have recommended against posting ages, why continue to press the issue?

What about my idea for those dissatisfied with their kids TRN rating to "play up" to counter those who are graded down. I realize some will say they should not have to do that, never the less, wouldn't it work?

Dallas never said his lawyers told him not to post ages. He said he had to ask them their opinion. I think he is simply being stubborn because it is a very obvious flaw in his website.

Its not a liability issue, thats dumb to even try to say. They post information and rank kids that effect their future. Lawsuits are much more likely from that information. Any people person search on the internet will bring up everyone named the same name's age in a city, along with their ages. Age is not an issue in the least from a liability standpoint. I challenge one real lawyer to come on here and explain how if you look at all the personal information and rankings and standings TRN puts out to say posting an age would bring additional liability....if so just ask the parents for permission, if they don't give it, put a big old asterisk in the age spot.

As far as the information being volunteered, so what? So require ages if you want your kid on TRN. You want to post pictures? Their school? The graduating class you SAY they are in? Great. Then age is also part of the website. Again, its a flaw that TRN should never have had, and they are just being stubborn for no good reason.

Every coach I know knows multiple kids held back....several posters on here also do. It IS an issue. Ages SHOULD be on the TRN site. For the last time, I will say it again. Its not how people will or will not use ages. Junior tennis is ALL about ages from day 1.

TRN should have ages on the site, it is that simple.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I know of 5 kids in TX that completed 8th grade and have "homeschooled" a year and will now start highschool as Freshman (though they should be sophmores). Two of these kids were ranked in the top 10 of the section before aging up. The question is - now that TR has them as 8th graders rather than 9th graders, are they awarded more "points" when they beat a 9th grader of equal stars or if they lose to a 9th grader with a lower ranking is that 9th grader awarded less "POINT" because the kid is an 8th grader versus a 9th grader?

5 more kids added to the 5 another poster knows to the 2 I know to the countless ones other coaches know. Speaking of lawsuits....TRN could get sued for NOT posting ages to try to discourage this cheating. NOT posting ages affects the honest kids.

Hmmm, maybe that would work. Since they are so afraid of a 1 in a million lawsuit, maybe someone will fill a suit to force TRN to do things the right way so their kids are not affected by the cheating they allow to go on.

A 20 year old days after 'graduating' being ranked above honest 17 year old seniors? Thats fine in their eyes.

They are so high and mighty on their formulas and rankings, examples like this poster said.....why not have a 'penalty' for kids in the Class of who are older? Less points if you beat a 16 year old when you are 18??

Common sense, a 16 year old Class of 2015 who beats a 17.5 year old Class of 2015 should get more points toward a ranking.

 

[andfor]

Dallas never said his lawyers told him not to post ages. He said he had to ask them their opinion. I think he is simply being stubborn because it is a very obvious flaw in his website.

Its not a liability issue, thats dumb to even try to say.........................

TRN should have ages on the site, it is that simple.

Again, with respect............

Neither of us are lawyers, at least I don't think you are. I believe its safe to say its a liability issue if you think there's even a chance of getting sued. We know owning a business, home and driving a car is a liability......Dallas's point is that he's a small company and there's only so much resources to do what everyone wants him to is understandable. The ITF posting birthdays (according to someone here) comes with a signed release of liability, couple that with the fact the ITF most likely has vastly more resources (lawyers) and cash (revenues) than TRN, makes the posting of BDAY info there compared to TRN not, an apples to oranges issue.

What information does TRN post that is public that exposes kids that could remotely deemed as harmful? Their school? OK. Dallas said that if parents don't like their kids being on the site he gladly removes them.

Fully realizing you may flame me, I am sincerely interested in your opinion on the following.
What about my idea for those dissatisfied with their kids TRN rating to "play up" to counter those who are graded down. I realize some will say they should not have to do that, never the less, wouldn't it work?

 

[andfor]

I know of 5 kids in TX that completed 8th grade and have "homeschooled" a year and will now start highschool as Freshman (though they should be sophmores). Two of these kids were ranked in the top 10 of the section before aging up. The question is - now that TR has them as 8th graders rather than 9th graders, are they awarded more "points" when they beat a 9th grader of equal stars or if they lose to a 9th grader with a lower ranking is that 9th grader awarded less "POINT" because the kid is an 8th grader versus a 9th grader?

New person here. Welcome Watergirl. I am sure you just stumbled across the forum, just happened to see this thread and knew of 5 legitimate cases you could clearly document, if you wanted to, but we are against calling kids out that can't protect themself, for sure. It probably also just so happens you intimately know each of the families, kids and all of their circumstances in detail.

Sounds like the kids are a year behind, are freshman next year but listed as 8th graders. So if I am following correctly, they might be a year behind where other kids their age are in school, but on TRN are listed 2 yrs behind.

This will correct itself. It can't be hidden forever. It's not like they are lying about their birth certificate. No big deal, rankings and ratings are just a number, what matters is results on the court.

Again welcome.

 

[BSPE84]

The reason we complain is because they are more mature physically, mentally, and technically.

JM, perhaps they are that way because they are more disciplined, have better work ethic, and are more hungry. Chicken or egg argument.

 

[andfor]

JM, perhaps they are that way because they are more disciplined, have better work ethic, and are more hungry. Chicken or egg argument.

The next thing we will hear is from those wanting height and weight listed because some kids are bigger than others at the same age.

TRN is based on grade. USTA and ITF is based on age.

If Dallas ever does post birthday or birth-year don't be surprised if people try push him to allow the site to sort not only by grade but also by age.

 

[watergirl]

Without understanding the formula for rankings how do we know how big of a deal age is? Does your ranking improve more if you are labeled a 3 star 8th grader and beat a 3 star 9th grade? What about the real 3 star 8th grader who gets beat by the labeled 3 star 8th grader - Does his/her ranking fall more?

By the way these kids were fine in school, one is a spring birthday the others were in the middle. Know for a fact it was a tennis recruiting decision and not an academic/maturity issue.

 

[BSPE84]

Junior tennis is predicated on AGES from the time kids start to hit the radar. 4 year old tennis prodigy, 7 year old tennis wunderkind, Little Mos 8s, USTA 10s, 12s, 14s, 16s. 18s. It is based on AGE as much or more as any sport ever conceived of by human beings.

TRN is a site dedicated to junior tennis, recruiting, tips, news, etc. The site has branched out past simple college recruiting, they offer all sorts of other tools, news, and information. They give out very personal information about the kids, they rate the kids.

This is such a no brainer it cracks me up. A kid's sport based on ages from day 1, a site dedicated to junior tennis.....and people argue it should not mention ages? That is beyond silly.

This argument is great entertainment, it makes totally no sense to oppose ages on TRN! Who cares about what college recruiters would ask, who cares anyone's motivation for having ages there, that is not relevant. What is relevant is that the entire junior tennis thing is BASED on the kid's ages!

TCF, what are you harping on is the fundamental flaw I had referred to in previous posts. Legalities aside, posting age would be tantamount to ADMITTING that the basis of their system is unsound out of the gate by not factoring in age. Basically people would lose trust in their service unless the current ranking algorithm is reworked.

Personally, I would have a serious problem if somebody posted my kid's birthday on the internet without first seeking my consent. Doesn't matter what personal crap people can google off online already, the key is to seek consent. DO to his credit clearly appreciates this fact. Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way, so how useful can it really be anyway to have a bunch of asterisks come up??

 

[hound 109]

Page 4, post 68, second half of post.

Thanks Clark....I missed that.

Maybe this issue is bigger at the younger ages...& as other posters mentioned, works its way out as they enter HS (or maybe this will be a bigger issue when THESE 6th & 7th graders are in HS...who knows?)

I still would like the month date published since it's published in the age up lists each month & (i would guess) would be considered "public info". (but i'm sure as heck not a lawyer)

Besides, my 18 year old 8th grader is beating the stuffings out of those poor kids in his grade and I think the system works great. (Just kidding, of course. My kid is in the proper grade and not even ranked due to 18 months of injury troubles.)

:twisted: Gotta love guys who stir the pot.

Hope your kid makes a full recovery ClarkC.



Sojanka.....i missed Dallas's post.....I agree it is compelling info (especially for the older kids). But i still think month/year is an easy addition. (& who knows, maybe it would prevent a few parents from doing this?).

 

[justinmadison]

TRN is based on grade. USTA and ITF is based on age.

TRN is focused on college recruiting. Age does not matter. If anything older is better. What matters is what year you can be recruited for, which is your grade.

Why are we so hung up on a piece of data that has no impact on the decision at hand?

 

[tennis5]

oh that, thats pretty minor really and its a point system/tournament change.....the best will still win. it just prevents point chasing families, LIKE YOU, from wasting thousands of dollars going around the country to lose in the first round.

"cheating back" is only a point to send a signal to the player, not the entire game. unless you really want your kid to go over there and call out the other kid on being a cheater, in which he'll probably smile and laugh and continue doing it.

Tennisnoob,

As you didn't know about the rule changes for 2011,
I know you don't have a junior playing....

And as I read your post, asking last year, Dec 2010,
"how do you hold the ball for the serve? i've seen numerous videos on the right way to hold the ball, with most of them different. jw how you guys do it."
I don't think you played junior tennis......

So, just to enlighten you, the changes are not "minor".

And with the limited draws of 32, actually 28, no one is losing in the first round and still getting into ongoing tournaments.

While, I appreciate all your responses, due to my own time constraints, I can not respond back to any of your comments directed towards me.

Good luck.

 

[tennis5]

The next thing we will hear is from those wanting height and weight listed because some kids are bigger than others at the same age.

They do have height and weight listed..

It is on the player bio page.

It is voluntary.

 

[tennis5]

Again, I think TRN is a terrific site....

They already have a place for your school, academy, your clothing, your height, weight, high school coach, private coach.

THIS IS VOLUNTARY.

Now on the private page is the birthdate.

Underneath it, you can have a yes or no, if you would like to
have the computer calculate your age in years and quarters for the front page.

The fact that we are at 9 pages here, with some so vehemently opposed and others favoring it, shows this is a real issue.

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

 

[tennis5]

Personally, I would have a serious problem if somebody posted my kid's birthday on the internet without first seeking my consent. Doesn't matter what personal crap people can google off online already, the key is to seek consent. DO to his credit clearly appreciates this fact. Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way, so how useful can it really be anyway to have a bunch of asterisks come up??

Everything listed on TRN is voluntary, except for junior's matches which are public information.

It is not a credit risk, to have someone's birthdate posted in years and quarters.

Imagine this conversation:

"Hi, I am trying to get a new credit card."

The thief gives all the info he has...

And when asked his birthdate?

He replies, "Somewhere between January 96 - April 96"

 

[andfor]

They do have height and weight listed..

It is on the player bio page.

It is voluntary.

They will want it figured in with the algorithm. I was being sarcastic but if you think you got me, then touché.

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

I'll bite. I really don't care that the BDay/BMonth is not posted on TRN. Grade not age is what the site is about. If unsatisfied with the Grade Based Chip/Star system use the age based USTA or ITF rankings.

I'm fine with TRN posting the Birth info if they choose to do so. Dallas isn't, I'm cool with that. It's really not what the website is about.

Aren't results more important than a number or rating anyway?

 

[tennisnoob3]

Tennisnoob,

As you didn't know about the rule changes for 2011,
I know you don't have a junior playing....

And as I read your post, asking last year, Dec 2010,



Good luck.

rule changes that only prevent point chasers are not considered major in my book. if the rule were however to change the number of sets, i would agree that is a RULE change and quite significant

and

thanks for the stalking, im flattered. fwiw, and its quite sad you dont know this, there are two ways to hold a tennis ball when serving, just looking for opinions on each one and why.

 

[BSPE84]

Everything listed on TRN is voluntary, except for junior's matches which are public information.

It is not a credit risk, to have someone's birthdate posted in years and quarters.

Imagine this conversation:

"Hi, I am trying to get a new credit card."

The thief gives all the info he has...

And when asked his birthdate?

He replies, "Somewhere between January 96 - April 96"

C-O-N-S-E-N-T. Comprende?

Everyone has their own reasons. Privacy issues can be a lot more tricky than some simple minded folks here may think.

 

[BSPE84]

TRN is focused on college recruiting. Age does not matter. If anything older is better. What matters is what year you can be recruited for, which is your grade.

Why are we so hung up on a piece of data that has no impact on the decision at hand?

Exactly. It's a recruiting tool for coaches, not parents to check their egos.

I know two prominent college coaches close by us (you may know) whose kids are older than mine but are one class behind. All play in the 14's. Talked to the parents many times but never asked if this was done intentionally or not. Predictably, both have higher "star" ratings than mine. BFD.

Let the kid's racquet do the talking and the parents stop whining. Nuff said.

 

[chalkflewup]

Nothing against TRN at all, but I really don't give an overstuffed rodent's posterior about TRN ranking and neither does my kid.

 

[tennis5]

C-O-N-S-E-N-T. Comprende?

Everyone has their own reasons. Privacy issues can be a lot more tricky than some simple minded folks here may think.

By checking off the yes box on the private page under your child's birthday ,
( that was my imagined scenario),
you would be volunteering that your junior's birthdate can be posted on front page in years and quarters, that is consent.

If you checked off the no box, then it would not list your child's birthdate in years and quarters on the front page.

It is just another piece of info to help fill out the picture.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Junior tennis is all about age. TRN is a junior tennis site. TRN should have ages when you pull up the rankings.

Privacy issues? Whats the difference in posting the class year they graduate and age? What does a kids age offer as far as private information?

Geez, give it up already. They tell where to find the kids in school and post their picture. A predator could find them easily. So what would he do if he had the ages, send them a birthday card?

Liability? They rate kids that affect their college futures. So if TRN tells the world a kid is 16 that will cause a lawsuit? A bad star rating....no lawsuit....but tell how old a kid is and bam? I owned a 35000 square foot health club for 15 years, I know all about liability. We ran all sorts of kid's programs. The lawyers say first off, what are the potential damages? There is no damage that could be caused by posting an age, none. There are no claims a parent could even dream of that would not be tossed by any judge in seconds.

Are opponents even taking the time to see how ridiculous their arguments are?

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

By the way, it is not just tennis of course. How about this extreme....this kid is an '8th grader' and will be 16 in November.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/122787864.html?cmpid=15585797

 

[justinmadison]

By the way, it is not just tennis of course. How about this extreme....this kid is an '8th grader' and will be 16 in November.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/122787864.html?cmpid=15585797

Do you think college coaches do not want to recruit him because of his age? I think they are happier he is a year older and more likely to recruit him. He moved up into the top 20 because he is competing for a spot with younger players with less experience and less maturity. When the rankings come out there is no star beside your name indicating you are older or younger. You are either eligible for a class or not.

That is why it does not matter if you age is on the TRN site. It is graduating class the coaches care about.

 

[chalkflewup]

Even though I don't visit TRN, it would be interesting to get a birdseye view of the data surrounding birth date, graduation year and any modifications to graduating year. With the mounting cost of college education these days and the state of the economy, I can see a family holding junior back a year or two in order to work the system and perhaps save the family $100,000.

 

[andfor]

By the way, it is not just tennis of course. How about this extreme....this kid is an '8th grader' and will be 16 in November.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/122787864.html?cmpid=15585797

These types of one-off examples of older kids here and there playing H.S. and Jr. H.S. sports have been around for years.

One-off. Just like this entire debate. Up next, donut hole camparison and Making a Mountain out of a Mole Hill contests. The entire subject just isn't really a big deal.

 

[BSPE84]

Junior tennis is all about age. TRN is a junior tennis site.

I see "recruiting" but I don't see "junior" in the title. Recruiters don't seem to have a problem.

Don't misuse the tool and complain it doesn't work.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Well this has become a deadend thread. Some say no age, some say age. And no one is going to change anyone's opinion.

 

[slice bh compliment]

^Truth^
But people will still enjoy talking about it. Some will whine. Others will argue for the fun of it. Others will obssess over it. Still others will actually lose sleep over it.

Then there will be the parents who enjoy their children's development and let the CHIPS fall where they fit best.

 

[Keysmickey]

Well this has become a deadend thread. Some say no age, some say age. And no one is going to change anyone's opinion.

True.

But the thing is adding the age to TRN changes nothing for those who don't care but gives those who think they need it that chance. Maybe I'm missing something but what's the issue?

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

True.

But the thing is adding the age to TRN changes nothing for those who don't care but gives those who think they need it that chance. Maybe I'm missing something but what's the issue?

I agree. I am missing the point of the opponents. Why do they even care? They could just ignore it.

 

[Sunbeam]

TRN's clients are

1. College Coaches
2. Junior players who hope to be recruited
3. Advertisers

The college coaches want to build the best team possible. I don't think they care whether a prospective recruit has dropped back a grade or two. They are concerned with the product they see Junior Year in High School. If that product is nearing 19 years old with 20 more pounds of muscle and a couple more years of experience, then bingo! They all want to keep their jobs, feed the family. Their teams need to perform. They want the best odds chance.

So news flash -- TRN and the college coaches are just fine with the system.

Again, you can try to change the system, or you can work within the system... that is your choice.

That being said, here is a possible idea that could be win/win/win for all customers of the TRN:

Add another field to the Player Overview.

That field will simply factor 'Age of Player' into the (what I think is pretty perfect) comprehensive Recruiting List formula. This will give a better picture for those clients (players and the coaches) who ARE interested in age-related comparison.

No birthdays/birth quarters need to be listed on the player's pages.

The topper is that TRN can sell the naming rights to this field to an advertiser and hopefully make some money!



***BTW I find it oppresive when users hop into discussions and start calling the people discussing matters whiners. It's obvious they haven't read the threads, thought things through and/or have anything to contribute to the discussion. Keep on discussing things people!

 

[hound 109]

Chalkflewup
Even though I don't visit TRN, it would be interesting to get a birdseye view of the data surrounding birth date, graduation year and any modifications to graduating year. With the mounting cost of college education these days and the state of the economy, I can see a family holding junior back a year or two in order to work the system and perhaps save the family $100,000.

Do you think college coaches do not want to recruit him because of his age? I think they are happier he is a year older and more likely to recruit him. He moved up into the top 20 because he is competing for a spot with younger players with less experience and less maturity. When the rankings come out there is no star beside your name indicating you are older or younger. You are either eligible for a class or not.

That is why it does not matter if you age is on the TRN site. It is graduating class the coaches care about.

These are the reasons why i posted my ORIGINAL post.

If there's little downside to holding my 4 star 6th grader back a grade, why wouldn't I? One can (as others have said) "whine" that a system is flawed, or one can play the game & work the system..... & I can give my kid a full year advantage over his peer group.

 

[hound 109]

What about my idea for those dissatisfied with their kids TRN rating to "play up" to counter those who are graded down. I realize some will say they should not have to do that, never the less, wouldn't it work?

You didn't ask me, but i'll answer anyway.

Most high level kids DO play up. (sometimes) They are rewarded when they get a win over a kid who's a grade (or two grades) up (& the same number of stars). But a 4 star 7th grader is usually as good as a blue chip 6th grader.....so playing up is a tough (but good) challenge.

Which is why a kid who's 12-18 mos. older than most (in a grade) has the advantage.....if he routinely beats a kid HIS age (but a grade higher)....the TRN algorythym has this as a HUGE win....when actually he just beat a kid his own age.

 

[hound 109]

5 more kids added to the 5 another poster knows to the 2 I know to the countless ones other coaches know. Speaking of lawsuits....TRN could get sued for NOT posting ages to try to discourage this cheating. NOT posting ages affects the honest kids.

Hmmm, maybe that would work. Since they are so afraid of a 1 in a million lawsuit, maybe someone will fill a suit to force TRN to do things the right way so their kids are not affected by the cheating they allow to go on.

A 20 year old days after 'graduating' being ranked above honest 17 year old seniors? Thats fine in their eyes.

They are so high and mighty on their formulas and rankings, examples like this poster said.....why not have a 'penalty' for kids in the Class of who are older? Less points if you beat a 16 year old when you are 18??

Common sense, a 16 year old Class of 2015 who beats a 17.5 year old Class of 2015 should get more points toward a ranking.

TCF, I provided 4 kids (not 5) from my observation.

Also, imo.....one of the 4 kids who has been "graded down", i honestly believe was NOT gaming the system, but probably has academic issues that has resulted him being 12-18 mos. older than other kids in his grade. (So only 3 in my section).

But 3 kids from one section & how many sections are there?



I do like adding age into the "formulas" for coming up with rankings. No reason why it couldn't be part of the formula since i assume that TRN obtains the ages (or age up dates) from the USTA electronically (along with the match results).

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

You didn't ask me, but i'll answer anyway.

Most high level kids DO play up. (sometimes) They are rewarded when they get a win over a kid who's a grade (or two grades) up (& the same number of stars). But a 4 star 7th grader is usually as good as a blue chip 6th grader.....so playing up is a tough (but good) challenge.

Which is why a kid who's 12-18 mos. older than most (in a grade) has the advantage.....if he routinely beats a kid HIS age (but a grade higher)....the TRN algorythym has this as a HUGE win....when actually he just beat a kid his own age.

Bingo. If a kid gets more credit for beating a kid with an 'older' class year, then it is encouraging the holding back stuff.

Total no brainer, use age in the formulation, not Class year. So even if they refuse to list the kid's ages, at least factor age into their equation.

 

[hound 109]

cr*p....double post.

 

[hound 109]

double post.

 

[hound 109]

Watergirl.....what were the number of "stars" of these 5 kids (before & after the "grade down")??

Thanks.

I know of 5 kids in TX that completed 8th grade and have "homeschooled" a year and will now start highschool as Freshman (though they should be sophmores). Two of these kids were ranked in the top 10 of the section before aging up. The question is - now that TR has them as 8th graders rather than 9th graders, are they awarded more "points" when they beat a 9th grader of equal stars.....

Yes.....TRN gives HUGE bumps for beating highly ranked kids a grade higher.


or if they lose to a 9th grader with a lower ranking is that 9th grader awarded less "POINT" because the kid is an 8th grader versus a 9th grader?

I don't know about "less points".....but if (say) a 3 star 9th grader beats a 4 star 8th grader....it's pretty much a wash. (but if THAT 4 star kid had been a 9th grader (instead of an 8th grader) then the 3 star kid would have seen a nice bump).