Having your serve clocked is depressing
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tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
A 4.0 serving mid 120's?
AGREE. I seen this 4.0 guy in top gun serve speed tournament. they used the same radar gun that is used in the ATP tournaments. and this guy clocked 123 MPH I believe. that was his fastest. but didn't win the tournament. Another guy that was 4.5 level hit one at 126 MPH. LOL and he won the tournament.
Now, don't get excited. This is ONE out of 20-30 serves, I believe.
BS detector showing extremely high reading
Didn't know there are speed limits for a 4.0 serve.
An athletic 4.0, someone tall and strong, and not geeky growing kid, can easily hit over 130. He's a 4.0 not because of his serve, but because of the other parts of his game.
Couple of locals come into in mind, they USED to be 4.5. 6'5" and 220, former CalPoly player, but hasn't touched a racket in close to 3 years, choosing work and basketball instead. Local realtor, wire rim glasses, 6'4" and about the same overweight, hasn't played a tourney in 5 years now, once a 4.5, named TimCANNON!
really.
An athletic 4.0, someone tall and strong, and not geeky growing kid, can easily hit over 130. He's a 4.0 not because of his serve, but because of the other parts of his game.
Couple of locals come into in mind, they USED to be 4.5. 6'5" and 220, former CalPoly player, but hasn't touched a racket in close to 3 years, choosing work and basketball instead. Local realtor, wire rim glasses, 6'4" and about the same overweight, hasn't played a tourney in 5 years now, once a 4.5, named TimCANNON!
really.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
We are talking about with Pure drive plus strung with natty Gut at 45 lbs. and this guy hits in low 90's anyway. and he hit ONE serve out of like 30 serves he tried that was in 120's. We are taking about flat serve, swinging as hard as he can. Yes, he is 4.0 player. and serve is his best shot and he has Good mechanics.
mikeler
Moderator
Didn't know there are speed limits for a 4.0 serve.
An athletic 4.0, someone tall and strong, and not geeky growing kid, can easily hit over 130. He's a 4.0 not because of his serve, but because of the other parts of his game.
Couple of locals come into in mind, they USED to be 4.5. 6'5" and 220, former CalPoly player, but hasn't touched a racket in close to 3 years, choosing work and basketball instead. Local realtor, wire rim glasses, 6'4" and about the same overweight, hasn't played a tourney in 5 years now, once a 4.5, named TimCANNON!
BS detector is overheating now.
WildVolley
Legend
I've only run into one guy who could bring 120s at the local public courts, though I admittedly don't normally play with very good players. Ends up the guy was an ex-Div 1 player. So, that means an ex-5.5. Probably a "falling" 5.0 in LeeD's terminology.
When I coached, the opposing teams had a few players who went Division 1 on scholarships. All the guys I recall didn't have big serves. Some of the guys who went Division 2 had bigger serves than the Division 1 guys.
So there definitely can be a mismatch between power and control. A lot of division 1 guys simply lack the power to hang at the professional level. Sometimes there are guys who aren't consistent enough to play Division 1 who can bring more raw power.
When I coached, the opposing teams had a few players who went Division 1 on scholarships. All the guys I recall didn't have big serves. Some of the guys who went Division 2 had bigger serves than the Division 1 guys.
So there definitely can be a mismatch between power and control. A lot of division 1 guys simply lack the power to hang at the professional level. Sometimes there are guys who aren't consistent enough to play Division 1 who can bring more raw power.
GRANITECHIEF
Hall of Fame
About half of us can bring more raw power than Gilles Simon. But he's made $7 Million on the tour. Accuracy + variety is the ticket, although a little extra MPH can help.
WildVolley
Legend
Simon's serve normally seems wimpy to me, but I've seen him hit over 125 mph a number of times. I think the more shocking thing is how slowly he sometimes hits a second serve without getting worked. I've watched him play twice in person and his game looks better in person than on TV. He can rip the fh when he wants, too.
The big Simon mystery to me is how he is so consistent even though he doesn't seem to hit much topspin on a lot of his shots.
A 4.0 serving mid 120's?
why not balla.
I have played 4.0 with 125 serves, and it's a bit scary receiving those indoors.... but he doesn't have anything else.
it's an extreme case, but it does exist.
BS detector readout says: "Overflow error: consult manual"
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Agree with you. but Not consistently. If they hit the practice serve as hard as they can, Maybe 1 out of 15 -20 balls, you will get it up there. That is what I saw as well
TTMR
Hall of Fame
Didn't know there are speed limits for a 4.0 serve.
An athletic 4.0, someone tall and strong, and not geeky growing kid, can easily hit over 130. He's a 4.0 not because of his serve, but because of the other parts of his game.
Couple of locals come into in mind, they USED to be 4.5. 6'5" and 220, former CalPoly player, but hasn't touched a racket in close to 3 years, choosing work and basketball instead. Local realtor, wire rim glasses, 6'4" and about the same overweight, hasn't played a tourney in 5 years now, once a 4.5, named TimCANNON!
So logically, there must be a relatively equal number of 4.0 players who can "easily" return 130 MPH serves. If not, the "tall, athletic, strong 4.0" must have a 130 MPH serve with a sub-10% first serve rate, and somehow despite amazing technique that enables him to reach 130 MPH, possesses an absolute sitter of a second serve.
Of course the fact there are top 50 ATP males who can't hit 130 is naturally not relevant to the discussion.
mikeler
Moderator
I just got the blue screen of death.
TTMR
Hall of Fame
Ad hominem.
Even if I can't hit a serve into the box lobbing it underhanded, my point is not undermined. Would the fact that you can serve faster than a double amputee, for example, prove how much more awesome you are?
Some bodybuilding strongman cannot just pick up a racquet with no prior training and hit 130 mph. Excellent technique is required. A person who has the technique and racquet skill to hit 130 MPH would not lose at the 4.0 level. Most "big hitters" at the rec level who can't keep their "huge" serves and groundstrokes from going over the fence don't hit anywhere near 130 MPH--even on the shots that go over the fence.
goran_ace
Hall of Fame
I like how this thread has descended into chaos; TalkTennis never lets me down. Instead of accepting the notion that you may not serve as big as you would like to think, we talk about things like how the radar gun/methodology isn't accurate, equipment or conditions weren't ideal, and how we swear there are rec players out there who have a flamethrower of an arm.
You shouldn't take it personally. LeeD within the context of this forum is the recreational equivalent of the great sports pros that have no comprehension of the limitations of 'average' or lesser pros (thus meaning they very rarely become top coaches). It's an understandable mindset when you have competed with the best and have come to live by those standards of excellence that the average hacking, thrashing, coughing and spluttering weekend warrior has no chance of emulating. You can't go from being begged to hit lefty twist serves (2nd serve racket head speed much faster than 1st, with 99.9% consistency) to Ilana Kloss or Mareen Louie, to having to endure the rubbish being served up by a bum static 3.0 without thinking, "Why do I bother?"
LeeD was operating in the very top tiers of non-professional sports in about 4-8 disciplines for at least two decades ('A' events in tennis, and equivalents in motocross, surfing, windsurfing, pistol shooting etc). During this period he was regularly training with top professionals. Even in his mid-60s, with a single sided, double Velcro strap brace to support the knee he damaged falling down four carpeted steps, he still hits one in five tennis shots at an ATP level, can still throw a football over 50 yards off the back foot with no warmup, and is still sought out to practice with some of the top mid-teen juniors.
His advice and anecdotes may seem fanciful to you, but that's just because within the context of recreational sports you are as far away from LeeD's level as the most lowly Futures player is from Federer.
sundaypunch
Hall of Fame
LeeD may be the only person here that has actually posted a video of himself serving.
And we saw how that looked
TTMR
Hall of Fame
Well LeeD is too proud to make excuses for himself, but the reality is he's about forty years past his prime and hobbled by a leg fracture that would have ended the careers, and perhaps lives, of lesser men. The video was taken in March after a long layoff and the cold air stifled the pace, bounce and direction of the balls he hit, which were not new, by the way. How good would any of us look under such conditions? The difference is we'd add caveats and qualifications, while LeeD has no such ego to assuage.
A trained eye can clearly see the faint glimmer of a once Pancho Gonzalez-like first serve that would be hit well into the 120s with a wood racquet, and a proto-Rafterian American twist second serve that bounces to an apex of 10'. Who knows what kind of career LeeD would have had if he had access to today's strings and racquet technology during his vaunted prime? The tragedy of the LeeD legacy is ultimately that he was a victim of his era.
psv255
Professional
I don't understand what the issue is with trying to give the OP a clearer understanding or perception of serve speed, as compared to pros.
Most of the interest in serve speed comes from tournament readings, which have been all but proven to be more accurate (and therefore consistently higher) than most that rec players have access to.
Most tennis players could hit 90 mph by just using an eastern grip and smashing the ball as hard as they possibly can. Pros don't need to blast the ball (although they are able to) if they can place the ball on a dime, which is what they often do.
I agree, though, that the anecdotes doesn't add much to the thread.
For the record, there are at least five others...
LeeD would make this concession, but if you look past his reduced mobility there are still functioning A / Open level groundstrokes, and a high 4.5 level doubles game. The apposite point, though, is that at least LeeD had a memorable A / Open level prime, laced with the scalps of some of NorCal's best, and enhanced by being a competitive hitting partner for the likes of Raul Ramirez (ATP #4), Harold Solomon (ATP #5), Dick Stockton (ATP #8), Russell Simpson (ATP #47), Peanut Louie (WTA #19), Ilana Kloss (#19), Ceci Martinez, and Marcie / the other Louie sisters.
How many here will reach the age of 64 with such a distinguished tennis career, and be able to identify a specific 'prime' (the zenith clearly being that balmy August of '75) where you can look back and say, "Yeah, I was kinda a big deal?"
I'm sure LeeD will set you straight on this, but it's fair to say he has adapted with the times in relation to rackets. He has quite the horde of sticks, including TWO stored in Puerto Rico. One constant, though, has been good old, crisp feeling Leoina 66 in 15 gauge (as a big hitting string breaker in the pre co-poly days this was the only cost-effective option that gave him durability). You might get away with a thinner gauge or lesser string against dinking and dunking pushers like Henry Pon, Bill Small and the other 'B' tourney mafia, but if we're talking trading ATP style strokes with Dexter Lee and Gil Howard (big, 6'2 righty, whose 1st serve would hit the grandstand fence 6' up) then you needed the real deal.
Again, there is no evidence for this and it smacks of needless manufactured controversy. LeeD had his day; noone can begrudge him that. But to suggest that he suffered injustice would just be to devalue his actual, significant achievements.
Aren't we all LeeDs in some shape or form?
Not unless you ACTUALLY have C or higher tournament wins to your name.
Look at the Adam Sandler serve that was measured at 93 MPH in this match (@19:05). I'm certain most the 4.0s and 4.5s (30-50 year olds) I play hit better and faster serves, so they must be reading the speed at the fastest point right off the racquet as many are already stating. This suggests that a 100MPH serve is not that difficult to obtain.
Courier had a top 126MPH and Mac at 117MPH.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaj-VnLCGXA
Courier had a top 126MPH and Mac at 117MPH.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaj-VnLCGXA
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Average serve speeds for US Open (2011?)for ATP players in certain tracked matches -
Not familiar with this site
http://heavytopspin.com/2011/10/13/us-open-serve-speed-by-player/#comments
Average of tracked matches
1st 113 MPH , 2nd 90 MPH
Not familiar with this site
http://heavytopspin.com/2011/10/13/us-open-serve-speed-by-player/#comments
Average of tracked matches
1st 113 MPH , 2nd 90 MPH
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tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Amusing. 100+ of the world's best men average 113.
I wonder if they fear the masses on ttw; 4.0s with any type of athleticism hitting 130; the elites shunning the mere 100 mph as "low level players." Too funny.
It should show just how awesome the serves of the big guys really are. And how delusional rec players can be regarding serve speeds.
Are the two above posters brain dead? Smugly, they say pros serve first serves at "113" mph ......
Don't they play tennis?
The AVERAGE speed includes slice first serves, some kicks, some twists, so they bring DOWN the average.
The amateurs are talking their FASTEST first serves. Mine around 100. If I added in my slices, some twists, and some body shot top/slices, that average goes down to 85mph.
Almost every ATP pro, from 1,000 down, can hit 130mph first flat serves.
Don't they play tennis?
The AVERAGE speed includes slice first serves, some kicks, some twists, so they bring DOWN the average.
The amateurs are talking their FASTEST first serves. Mine around 100. If I added in my slices, some twists, and some body shot top/slices, that average goes down to 85mph.
Almost every ATP pro, from 1,000 down, can hit 130mph first flat serves.
WildVolley
Legend
You are correct Lee, but there are people who like to get ornery on this issue. Roddick has hit a measured 155mph, but he doesn't average even in the 140s.
Most of these discussion focus on a fastest serve rather than an average. I've hit 115mph on radar and am sure I've hit a few over 120mph (but not on radar). My first serve average is most likely in the 90mph range or lower than that. I can easily hit a 100mph-range flat serve, I occasionally will get more pop and put it up over 110mph, and my slice first serve might even fall into the 70s depending how much action I put on it.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I believe but am not sure that was for only the matches that were tracked by some kind of ball measuring system probably (?) on some of the bigger courts.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
sansaephanh
Professional
I think i probably serve in the 40's lol...
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
I think that's the key, sobering phrase.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Nice solid serve; no where remotely close to 100 mph.
cluckcluck
Hall of Fame
I can serve high 90's. But I believe there is something to be said about hitting a serve during match play and hitting practice serves. I think my match play serves are bigger.
I see that you're in SB! That's my hometown. I hear that the city courts have gotten awful with public use.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Agree, lots of guys I know can get it to that point. Go out there and hit the serve as Hard you as you can, I will bet you can get 1 out of 30 serves at 100 mph mark.
but then does that mean you are serving 100 mph serves in the match situation consistently ? Of course NOT.
GRANITECHIEF
Hall of Fame
Seems like the city courts are still in decent shape. 6 courts at muni are getting resurfaced this summer. Las Positas courts got taken over by a for profit entity and they jacked up the price 5x, so no one goes there any more.
Oh yeah, BOOM! SET POINT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHyc...tailpage&list=UUb-29fIS3FXMUqSmSiG307w#t=374s
cluckcluck
Hall of Fame
Nice serve there. Looks like it had some weight on it.
Las Positas used to be my favorite courts until I became a member at Cathedral Oaks.
I wonder if they'll ever resurface the courts at Oak Park...perhaps even put some lights there ever?
GRANITECHIEF
Hall of Fame
^^No lights but they were resurfaced a couple years ago. Very leafy but nice setting.
