Heavy balls vs high pace balls

C.H

New User
My coach explained to me the difference, heavy balls as it's name implied, not necessarily high pace, the balls have plenty of force that will twist the racket on off center hit.

High pace balls aren't necessarily heavy balls.

Is it true?
 

Dragy

Legend
At the moment of impact, it’s a city legend. Its velocity and trajectory and whether you make clean contact.

Against penetrating fast balls with minimum vertical component it’s relatively easy to make clean flush contact. Against a rising fast ball — more challenging. And it’s gonna rise higher than you are comfortable hitting, so you kind of don’t get “easy” option, unless you fall farther back and play it dropping.

All in all, “heavy” is decent idea on how to send balls. It’s not about some “force” which is carried by the ball to twist the racquet. Nothing will twist and kick your racquet more than a 120+ mph first serve on off-center hit, or a hard-hit shot fired at you at the net (and you off-center it).
 

KingCarlitos

Hall of Fame
My coach explained to me the difference, heavy balls as it's name implied, not necessarily high pace, the balls have plenty of force that will twist the racket on off center hit.

High pace balls aren't necessarily heavy balls.

Is it true?
Short answer yes.

Fast balls have pace, Heavy balls usually just feel heavy on your racket because they have lots of topspin.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Underspin minimizes vertical component of ball velocity, and particularly after bounce balls retain much less pace.
I think it’s the amount of spin on the ball when you’re returning it. It can be very difficult to handle as it pushes the racket around. I had to face extremely spinny balls (both top and under) a couple of times from advanced players when I played doubles. I simply couldn’t hit a single ball cleanly.
 

Dragy

Legend
I think it’s the amount of spin on the ball when you’re returning it. It can be very difficult to handle as it pushes the racket around. I had to face extremely spinny balls (both top and under) a couple of times from advanced players when I played doubles. I simply couldn’t hit a single ball cleanly.
I don’t share same experience. The most amount of unclean contacts I’ve got against strong lefties. Because their spin is unfamiliar. And balls end up in different spot than I expect.

I’ve hit enough clean blasts against heavy balls from strong players. Never felt like spin is pushing my racquet around — but I use pretty hefty ones.

But of course I’m not going to ultimately deny the experience. I just suggest that next time you play someone with “heavy” shots you are aware of what causes you trouble, how you can solve it… and film your strokes and analyze ones you miss or get pushed — what actually happens?

Pro players put away heaviest kick serves more frequently than fast first serves. The ball spin doesn’t cause the ball to rebound all over the court, while high pace and lack of time does. It’s extreme example, but gives the idea.

In the meantime, fast, high and spinny balls are a nightmare to face, no doubt.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I don’t share same experience. The most amount of unclean contacts I’ve got against strong lefties. Because their spin is unfamiliar. And balls end up in different spot than I expect.

I’ve hit enough clean blasts against heavy balls from strong players. Never felt like spin is pushing my racquet around — but I use pretty hefty ones.

But of course I’m not going to ultimately deny the experience. I just suggest that next time you play someone with “heavy” shots you are aware of what causes you trouble, how you can solve it… and film your strokes and analyze ones you miss or get pushed — what actually happens?

Pro players put away heaviest kick serves more frequently than fast first serves. The ball spin doesn’t cause the ball to rebound all over the court, while high pace and lack of time does. It’s extreme example, but gives the idea.

In the meantime, fast, high and spinny balls are a nightmare to face, no doubt.
I don’t usually face balls with a lot of rotational energy. When I do rarely, I don’t know what to do. Just too much weird energy transferred to my strings. I still feel the same when I volley an incoming ball with plenty of underspin.
 
I don’t usually face balls with a lot of rotational energy. When I do rarely, I don’t know what to do. Just too much weird energy transferred to my strings. I still feel the same when I volley an incoming ball with plenty of underspin.
The point of underspin when used offensively, aside from getting to the target with a hard to read trajectory, and keeping the bounce low, is to mess up the sense of launch angle.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
I think it’s the amount of spin on the ball when you’re returning it. It can be very difficult to handle as it pushes the racket around. I had to face extremely spinny balls (both top and under) a couple of times from advanced players when I played doubles. I simply couldn’t hit a single ball cleanly.
Argument for a heavy racquet. And also higher tension.
 

C.H

New User
The point of underspin when used offensively, aside from getting to the target with a hard to read trajectory, and keeping the bounce low, is to mess up the sense of launch angle.
I found underspin, be it offensive or defensive, is very tricky. This is one of the most challenging shot to counter.

Not only it disturbs the rhythm, you cannot be aggressive countering it.
 

MyFearHand

Professional
This is another one of those debates over feel vs. real. Heaviness feels the way the OP described and slice can cause the effect Curious mentioned. But really it’s just about the ball bouncing in a place we don’t expect it causing us to hit off center, off balance and to adjust the swing path at the last second to cope for where the ball really is. But at the end of the day it’s all about being balanced and in the right place, heavy spin just makes it trickier to time.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
My coach explained to me the difference, heavy balls as it's name implied, not necessarily high pace, the balls have plenty of force that will twist the racket on off center hit.

High pace balls aren't necessarily heavy balls.

Is it true?
It's useful to understand the partitioning between spin and speed, because there is a limit of energy one can generate without too many errors and you need them to achieve different tactical purposes later.

To me:

Heavy = medium to high speed ball with a lot of spin

Pace = high speed and/or fast rhythm
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
This is another one of those debates over feel vs. real. Heaviness feels the way the OP described and slice can cause the effect Curious mentioned. But really it’s just about the ball bouncing in a place we don’t expect it causing us to hit off center, off balance and to adjust the swing path at the last second to cope for where the ball really is. But at the end of the day it’s all about being balanced and in the right place, heavy spin just makes it trickier to time.
I agree but I still think the ball’s rotational energy makes the impact on strings very tricky. It may not push the racket out of your hand but gives a similar ‘not in control’ feeling.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
it's half physics half experience.. a high spin ball does have more energy and it will look more jumpy on the bounce because the trajectory becomes more vertical prior to impact...on clay it;s more exaggerated due to the ball upon landing pushes some dirt forward and form a little 'hill' to climb up on.

more vertical trajectory on the landing and the rebound causes more timing problems because it goes in and out of the strike zone so fast. in the amateurs far more people have problem with spin than with flat pace.

@Curious a slice with lots of spin is called a heavy slice lol.
@Dragy how to define 'retain'... a topspin ball naturally loses horizontal speed faster due to the trajectory bending. and the landing on the court is heavier than the ball's own weight due to the Bernoulli effect, so the friction shaves off more speed.. on the contrary, a slice skids, because the Bernoulli effect causes the landing to be lighter than the ball's own weight, so the friction shaves off less speed... and this is exaggerated on fast services... e.g. try on artificial grass you can basically time a slice as if there is zero speed loss (like hitting an air ball).
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I found underspin, be it offensive or defensive, is very tricky. This is one of the most challenging shot to counter.

Not only it disturbs the rhythm, you cannot be aggressive countering it.
If you have the techniques and set up, you can attack it. Slice often robs you the proper set up position. That's why it can be effective even for pros.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
it's half physics half experience.. a high spin ball does have more energy and it will look more jumpy on the bounce because the trajectory becomes more vertical prior to impact...on clay it;s more exaggerated due to the ball upon landing pushes some dirt forward and form a little 'hill' to climb up on.

more vertical trajectory on the landing and the rebound causes more timing problems because it goes in and out of the strike zone so fast. in the amateurs far more people have problem with spin than with flat pace.

@Curious a slice with lots of spin is called a heavy slice lol.
@Dragy how to define 'retain'... a topspin ball naturally loses horizontal speed faster due to the trajectory bending. and the landing on the court is heavier than the ball's own weight due to the Bernoulli effect, so the friction shaves off more speed.. on the contrary, a slice skids, because the Bernoulli effect causes the landing to be lighter than the ball's own weight, so the friction shaves off less speed... and this is exaggerated on fast services... e.g. try on artificial grass you can basically time a slice as if there is zero speed loss (like hitting an air ball).
Again it’s not only the weird bounce, it’s the weird behaviour of the ball even when it reaches the strings. I didn’t experience this many times but only a few quite advanced players made me feel that. I couldn’t return any of the not so fast but extremely spinny( mostly slice) serves of one guy for example.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
If you have the techniques and set up, you can attack it. Slice often robs you the proper set up position. That's why it can be effective even for pros.
@C.H - generally you need to switch to a different tempo when you see a skiddy slice coming in. time the shot assuming zero speed loss. this is similar to hitting a swing volley - no incoming speed loss on the rebound.

if it's just a floaty defensive slice, then it's likely gonna sit up and you can time it like a regular top spin ball... but keep them feet active as the bounce maybe tricky.
 
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I found underspin, be it offensive or defensive, is very tricky. This is one of the most challenging shot to counter.

Not only it disturbs the rhythm, you cannot be aggressive countering it.
Yes, this is why I say it is underused by most players, especially on the FH wing. You can still be aggressive countering it but it demands a bit different mindset and usually higher degree of execution.
 
Again it’s not only the weird bounce, it’s the weird behaviour of the ball even when it reaches the strings. I didn’t experience this many times but only a few quite advanced players made me feel that. I couldn’t return any of the not so fast but extremely spinny( mostly slice) serves of one guy for example.
This is a legitimate feeling because the spin interacts with the hitting surface.
@C.H - generally you need to switch to a different tempo when you see a skiddy slice coming in. time the shot assuming zero speed loss. this is similar to hitting a swing volley - no incoming speed loss on the rebound.
Yes often you can basically block it with a short stroke and get it placed right.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Again it’s not only the weird bounce, it’s the weird behaviour of the ball even when it reaches the strings. I didn’t experience this many times but only a few quite advanced players made me feel that. I couldn’t return any of the not so fast but extremely spinny( mostly slice) serves of one guy for example.
Stringbed stiffness helps…
 

Dragy

Legend
a topspin ball naturally loses horizontal speed faster due to the trajectory bending
I’m not sure, topspin shot definitely gets more resistance from the “front” after it passes the peak, compared to same speed of no-spin ball, but it’s really a small part of the flight, and not sure how significant. Overall topspin allows the ball to go faster, clear the net safely and stay in. Hence rally balls with heavy spin are obviously “heavier” than same-shape flatter rally balls.

Really hard flat rockets are tough to deal with, as pace is overwhelming, as well as time to react and execute is far less.

If the court is grippy, clay including, you really feel the difference between how a high-RPM fast ball retains more speed after bounce. Some even say ball “accelerates” off the bounce.

Slice shots skidding is definitely a thing, which is similar to baseline overheads skidding — acute angle of attack matters.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
There is no textbook definition for a ‘heavy‘ ball, but for most players, it would be a combination of pace/spin that is higher than what they are used to that makes it difficult for them to hit balls back into the court. If you are used to 60mph balls at 500 rpm and suddenly you face a player who hits at 3000 rpm at the same pace, you will probably struggle and call the balls heavy. Conversely, if you suddenly face a player who hits at 80mph at 500rpm, that might be difficult to handle also and maybe you will call it a heavy ball - but more likely you might just call it a faster ball. Generally a player will find it difficult when both the pace and spin go up - say someone hitting at 70mph at 3000rpm will be almost unplayable if you are used only to 50mph at 500rpm.

I have faced players with such high under spin on their slice combined with high pace that their driving slice is pretty ‘heavy’ also as the under spin is more than what I am used to. Generally these are ex-college or ex-pro players who can hit with that much underspin. More common to run into players who hit with more topspin than you are normally used to and there is an adjustment period as it feels like their ball jumps into you faster than you are used to and pushes your racquet back. My coach is one of those players with a ‘heavy’ slice and I find his driving BH slice to be ‘heavier’ than his topspin BH - he forces more errors from me with his driving slice especially if it is deep. Another coach hits more topspin than anyone else I hit with and his topspin balls are really ‘heavy’ for me. When I face heavy balls, I feel like I have to make sure I have a firm grip at contact to brace for the high-spin impact and prevent my racquet from twisting.

There are sometimes players with unfamiliar shots that can be troublesome and needs an adjustment period, but I wouldn’t necessarily call them heavy always. For instance I rarely face lefty kick serves of a high caliber as many lefties depend on their lefty slice as their 2nd serve also. Usually when I face a player with a good lefty kick, I’m toast for a couple of return games and then adjust to it.
 
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mental midget

Hall of Fame
i mean...there's just speed and spin (and mass, ball and your racket of course). both exert force on the stringbed. a ton of either, or of course a combo of both, will feel 'heavy.'
 

Bagumbawalla

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, pure speed, hit relatively flat, might be described as having plenty of "pace", it can steal
time away from you, force you to be late to the ball- unable to set up with perfect positioning...

A "heavy" ball may be hit just as hard as the ball with "pace", but some percentage of the total
force goes into creating spin that will cause the ball to jump up and pound into your racket- forcing
you to redirect the spin while placing the ball in some way that will turn the point in your favor.

Another aspect of ball striking, besides pace and heaviness, is perception of the ball.

A guy I used to practice with, sometimes, had a daughter on a local college team that would sometimes
come out to "hit with the guys". Her strokes were smooth and effortless looking but arrived much sooner
than expected- throwing off the receiver's timing until he got used to the unexpected pace.

And, speaking of the heavy ball- there was a guy I have mentioned a couple times before, who
put tremendous spin on the ball, also seemingly without any ostentatious show of strength or
exaggerated mannerisms. the ball came at you with a "thrumming" sound and became slightly elongated,
and pounded into your racket like a lead ball. The first time I hit with him I developed bleeding blisters.
When I showed them to the coach, he said, "So, do you want to quit"? I wanted to- but didn't.
 

C.H

New User
@C.H - generally you need to switch to a different tempo when you see a skiddy slice coming in. time the shot assuming zero speed loss. this is similar to hitting a swing volley - no incoming speed loss on the rebound.

if it's just a floaty defensive slice, then it's likely gonna sit up and you can time it like a regular top spin ball... but keep them feet active as the bounce maybe tricky.
Advanced players use tempo to win points. I must say this is a higher mind game because once club players got into the groove, they have only one pace, bang, bang, bang. I also have this problem, using pace to force a mistake from my opponent.

Even in ATP, top players missed time their shots countering off pace easy shots.
 

C.H

New User
Swinging through confidently denies all spin effect (if making clean contact).

The more you block it, the more spin affects how ball rebounds.
Top spin deals well with top spin and flat shots, so with slices against slices.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
There is no such thing as a heavy ball. Every topspin ball will contact the court and be in non-sliding contact, so the amount of topspin after the bounce is directly proportional to its horizontal velocity after the bounce.

A ball feels “heavy” only because the player is not used to the level of incoming topspin, which makes the ball lose less speed on the bounce. They are late and usually also mis-hit, and this makes them think the ball is heavy. If you time this ball properly and hit it in the sweetspot, it is no different than any other ball moving the same speed after contacting the court.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Not really. I have seen D1 players tackle balls with tons of action on them with a stock frame much lighter than yours. It is about anticipation and technique.
Perhaps but i was talking to curious. He is no d1 player. Even Nadal had to add weight to his racquet later in his career.
 
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