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height of ideal tennis player
- Thread starter bjk
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Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
Yesh, I agree that it's hard to pinpoint the causality of why today's top players are taller. If I were to venture a guess it would have to be because of something related to the greater amount of power they produce, something that is of greater primacy than ever in today's power baseline game.
What I meant was your proclamation that height probably is a bigger advantage when it comes to returning compared to serving: "so height these days may be a bigger advantage for returning than serving". That's obviously not quite right. Being tall is more of an advantage when serving, and the stats back that. The best returners (or those with best stats) will on average clearly be less tall than the best servers.
I don't know if you meant it that way, but it's how it came off to me at least.
DerekNoleFam1
Hall of Fame
Marin not a great server?- his serve has improved markedly under Goran and one of the main reasons he blasted his way to the USO trophy last year.
And when those serving bombs are coming down from that height you can't do anything about it. (I don't think a great returner like Novak would have stopped him either).
Bender
G.O.A.T.
this..or Roger's height obviously
@bjk what's the source for the graphic you posted?
Sampras, Federer, and Nadal are all 185 cm / 6'1
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
You don't want to be over 6'4" or under 5'10". Between these heights is ideal IMO.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
The tallest #1s ever were Marat Safin and Stan Smith both at 6'4.
Supertegwyn
Hall of Fame
Bernard Tomic (6'5) not a very good serve, moves well.
Bernard Tomic (6'5) not a very good serve, moves well.
Bernard Tomic (6'5) not a very good serve, moves well.
okdude1992
Hall of Fame
Throughout the course of his career, the serve has not been a consistent weapon. Of course it was at the 2014 USO but anyway, that wasn't really the point of my post.
okdude1992
Hall of Fame
You think Tomic has an elite serve? :shock: I guess I should have said he anticipates well, technically he isn't that good a mover. But again, not the main point I was going for
bjsnider
Hall of Fame
There's a long list of great players who are just over 6 feet tall, even going back decades before the open era. There are a few that are just under 6 feet. I'm not aware of many that are over 6'3". The loss of quick movement would be the most likely culprit. Just over 6 feet with long arms and broad shoulders would be ideal. Sampras, in other words.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
That's the kind of thing that went through my head. We know that there was a jump in height in the 20th century. But we also know that before fairly modern times (a few centuries ago) people were closer to the present height. And we know nutrition is the primary reason why mankind as a whole gets taller, and that lack of good nutrition does the opposite.
I was born in 1948, after WWII, so those of us who were born at the time are pretty much the same as today's adults. Laver and Rosewall were born more than 10 years earlier, so perhaps their generation was on average a bit shorter.
It still seems curious to me that Connors, JMac and Borg were all under 6 feet and dominated, yet there are no players that size dominating right how. There have always been taller players, but it seems now that no one the size of Nishikori can dominate in 2015.
It was hardly a proclamation. But I would point out that the two most successful servers in the last 25 years are Sampras and Fed, both 6'1". This is because much taller players do not have the skills to back up their serves in games. We can talk about people like Isner and Karlovic, but these guys are not dominant champions, and never could be.
The question is this: at what height to players have the advantage of winning, year after year. That seems to have increased only a couple inches. So where is the tipping point? I think most people in this thread have agreed it's somewhere between 6'1" and 6'3".
There have been 5 players who have won more than everyone else in the last couple decades - Sampras, Agassi, Federer, Nadal, and Djovokovic. Novak at 6'2" is the tallest. Agassi was 5'11", and I would argue that not having more slams for him has more to do with what he stuffed up his nose than his height.
Yes, but there is a huge BUT here. Serving better is useless if it does not win matches. And a huge serve is ultimately useless if it is not reflected in percentage of GAMES won.
So who are the leaders here?
Answer:
Karlovic tops everyone for his career: 92/9. He has won 92% of all his service games. But his horrible 9% of return games record is HORRIBLE, so he is not even close to one of the tennis greats.
I don't want to do too much with people like Isner, Querry, Anderson and so on, but NONE of these people are going to be contenders for #1 in the world.
Raonic at 91/15 104 for his career is the most impressive.
But look at the champions that have the highest career stats on all surfaces:
Federer: 88/27 115
Sampras: 89/24 113
Roddick: 90/20 110 (6'2")
Krajicek: 87/21 108 (6'1")
There has to be a balance. If the best players in the game are around 6"1, that's the best height to be, on average.
Now, look at it another way:
Nadal: 86/33 119
Djokovic: 85/32 117
Agassi: 84/32 116
Federer: 88/27 115
Sampras: 89/24 113
Murray: 81/32 113
I have a list of around 50 players, all slam winners or close to slam winners. I left out no one. Edberg is next, but his stats cut off earlier years, and everyone his age or older is not represented with these stats. I did not cherry pick these names. It just happened. That's the exact order that happened. Remember that we are missing completely people like Gonzales, Laver, Rosewall, Connors, JMac, Borg, Lendl, Becker and any one great you want to see from those eras because we have no stats.
So when you look at carreer stats of 88 and 89 on serve for Fed and Sampras, and Ivo is only at 92, you have to conclude that just a wee bit over 6 feet is the magic height for the last couple decades. It has not changed.
So thinking that perhaps the game ITSELF was better suited to slightly shorter players in the age of wood rackets, less spin and so on is not exactly crazy.
Enga
Hall of Fame
You think Tomic has an elite serve? :shock: I guess I should have said he anticipates well, technically he isn't that good a mover. But again, not the main point I was going for
I think its the other way around, good serve, bad movement.
His serve has an elite level of placement and spin. He doesnt flatten it out though.
okdude1992
Hall of Fame
Hmmm thats a good point. After your post I just looked up the numbers. 30th in aces and 33rd in 1st serve points won. Much better than I expected. Apologies Supertegwyn and Bernard lol, appaently it's a pretty decent serve.
rossi46
Professional
Krajicek's height is 6'5" not 6'1".
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Or Sampras, Nadal, or Djokovic (only an inch or so difference). Although Borg is 5'11 and Laver is 5'8, but clearly for the modern tennis player, the optimal height is around 6'1-6'3 with a lean more towards 6'1.
It's clearly not 6'4 because that hurts the movement even if it may help the serve for example.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
It's not that simple. The strike height of a ball is just as dependent on your movement as your height - and guys who lean to the middle end of the suggested optimum zone (around Fed/Sampras/Nadal/Djokovic) height are the best of both worlds. They are also generally better at going down to low ball so it's a double win.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
dlk
Hall of Fame
GOAT contenders
My tier 1 is (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER):
Laver (5' 8 1/2"), Federer (6' 1"), Gonzales (6' 3"), Tilden (6' 2"), Sampras (6' 1"), Rosewall (5' 7"), Nadal (6' 1") & Borg (5' 11")
(They seem all over the place)
My tier 1 is (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER):
Laver (5' 8 1/2"), Federer (6' 1"), Gonzales (6' 3"), Tilden (6' 2"), Sampras (6' 1"), Rosewall (5' 7"), Nadal (6' 1") & Borg (5' 11")
(They seem all over the place)
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Obviously it's trending up to that. I remember Roddick commenting how he was bigger than most players when he 1st started on the tour; by the end he was middle or slightly under.
It would be 6'4" if Monfils had a brain and a heart - with his raw talent he should be GOAT...
DRII
G.O.A.T.
seems its about serve vs movement.
tall enough to have an effective serve, but not too tall as to negatively affect movement and/or balance.
In TopSpin 3 (the best console tennis game to date
) 6'3" was the ideal height for my custom characters.
if tennis attracted the best athletes, especially here in the states, the broad consensus might change. if we had a tennis player like LeBron James (very tall, but also very athletic at the same time), who knows what would happen to the sport.
tall enough to have an effective serve, but not too tall as to negatively affect movement and/or balance.
In TopSpin 3 (the best console tennis game to date
) 6'3" was the ideal height for my custom characters.if tennis attracted the best athletes, especially here in the states, the broad consensus might change. if we had a tennis player like LeBron James (very tall, but also very athletic at the same time), who knows what would happen to the sport.
LapsedNoob
Professional
Are we talking about the ideal player first then determining height or are we starting with the ideal height then describing the player.
Semantically they are shades different.
Besides, the thread has devolved so much anyhow what's the difference if I chime in with this crap.
Semantically they are shades different.
Besides, the thread has devolved so much anyhow what's the difference if I chime in with this crap.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
5'5 1/2" about
Henin would dominated the sport even further had she was around 5'10" which is an ideal size for a female tennis player.
One of the most talented player of all time, I think she would be a greater/better player than Serena had she wasn't so much undersized.
I really don't think it matters much how they look.
Not always.
When tour surfaces slowed significantly around 2002-2004, the average height actually started to decrease.
During Federer's prime, 2004-2007, the average height of top 25 was much lower than late 90's.
It makes sense since it favored great movers and baseliners.
Then slowly, players over 6'4", that used to be too tall for a tennis player, started to emerge.
They used to be unable to do ground stroke exchange because they are too slow.
IMHO, slowed surfaces allow them to play some return game reasonably.
So the peak of top 25 average height was late 90's.
But it much have increased since around 2005-2007.
I'm curious about now.....
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Good analysis, but remember that when we are talking about only the greatest players of the open era, we are dealing with a small sample size. All it takes is one great 6'8 player who serves like Karlovic but can still move and return great to completely throw it all out of whack.
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Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Yep, that all makes sense. It validates my point about the changing rigours of tennis causing an unstable "ideal" height. Still, I think overall it has been the trend—obviously you pointed out that the progression is not always linear and that the average height is not always rising.
Yeah, I'd be curious to see a full range of statistics for the Open Era at the very least and to see how certain trends fit in line with certain changes to tennis.
RacquetAbuse101
Semi-Pro
To Jhhachampion
I agree with you.
Unfortunately for Jerzy Janowicz, you also need a brain to play this game. :twisted:
I agree with you.
Unfortunately for Jerzy Janowicz, you also need a brain to play this game. :twisted:
Jaitock1991
Hall of Fame
As tall as possible, but without having to sacrifice too much mobility/agility. Typically in the 185cm-191cm zone.
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Somebody may have said this already and of course it's quibbling, but at least for serving, I think arm length is more important than actual height. A 6-1 guy with a 74 inch wingspan and tall shoulders may strike the ball much higher than a 6-3 guy with a below average reach. Of course a 6-9 Isner is going to have a massive reach advantage over anyone who is less than 6-1 regardless of arm length.
But like in the NBA, you have 6-9 guys with 7 foot arm spans and the people doing the draft take that into account as much as height.
Anyway, as the all times greats have shown, mobility can trump serving proficiency at the highest levels..but you have to be really good.
But like in the NBA, you have 6-9 guys with 7 foot arm spans and the people doing the draft take that into account as much as height.
Anyway, as the all times greats have shown, mobility can trump serving proficiency at the highest levels..but you have to be really good.
The_Mental_Giant
Hall of Fame
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
So Kyrgios size.
The_Mental_Giant
Hall of Fame
I'd say 6'1-6'2 is optimal height for tennis players...
RacquetAbuse101
Semi-Pro
Exactly. It is not merely a question of feet and inches, it is about proportion.
Some tall players (Cilic, Janowicz and Berdych) are well-proportioned, hence well-balanced, others (Raonic, Isner, Karlovic) less so.
daddy
Legend
Let's just say that Thomas Muster at 5'11 and Michael Chang at 5'10 are Roland Garros winners. Obviously on clay you can make up the lack of perfect measurements ( which are 6'1 to 6'2 imo ) with speed, positioning and stamina. This only translates to relatively recent champions.
The_Mental_Giant
Hall of Fame
chang was 5'9 at best.
tennisdad65
Hall of Fame
~6-1 for now.. Nadal, Fed, Pete were all around 6-1, dominating with 3 different styles of play.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Chang's ATP profile states that he is 5'9 (175cm).
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Ch/M/Michael-Chang.aspx
I must admit, I didn't think he was even this tall. To me, he looked much more like 5'7 at best!
daddy
Legend
Point staying the same, it is obviously best to be 186cm or somewhere around 6'1/2 since Lendl, Sampras, Federer, Rafa, Novak are all there or there about. You always have players who defy the rules, in recent times Aggasi and Hewitt at 5'11 and Willander at 6 whose game was well suited for todays conditions or maybe Becker and Edberg who were a couple of inches taller at 6'3 or 6'4.
My example of Chang and Muster for shorter guys was simple, as can be for Del Potro or Safin for higher guys / players who are considerably shorter or taller than the average ATG's can win a few like Delpo at almost 6'6 or Chang at 5'9 but to dominate on consistant basis these days you need 6'1 / 6'2.
I am not able to tell future nor would I like to so for now it seems that the perfect height for a tennis player rose a couple of inches in last few decades.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I read somewhere that the ideal height for an ATP player is supposed to be between 6'1 (185cm) and 6'3 (190cm). Federer and Nadal are both 6'1, Murray is 6'3. Guess who is exactly the ideal height: Djokovic of course at 6'2 (188cm)! :wink:
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manley0702
Rookie
Yes. Monfils is the perfect build for a tennis player. He has the height to serve near elite level with athleticism to retrieve elite level.
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