Help me understand grips

[Celestialstar]

My 10 year old plays a good game and is competitive in tournament tennis. Overall, her game is more about consistency than power. She has fast feet and a will to win. We have noted that her forehands are good but that the other kids at her level seem to have a more powerful forehand across the board.

A pro at another facility told us that part of the issue is that she uses a western grip and that her forehand needs to be broken and changed to a semi-western grip. He advised this would be a big change that would take a bit of transition time.

Can someone help me understand what the differences are to western and semi-western for juniors? When I google the grips, I see what the mechanical differences are but don't see much about the pros and cons and particularly as it relates to kids. We aren't sure what to do with this feedback. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

there's a million links about the different tennis grips.
the pros and cons are all the same (ie. contact point changes).
the main thing for kids... because they are short, and will play through a moonball phase in their life, they will tend to gravitate to a more western grip.... "hawaiian" being the extreme, and the stroke will become brushier and brushier (but hehlps with high contact points - eg. with moonballs)
the key, IMO, is to watch, and encourage the kid to hit through the ball, and compensate for the high contact point with their feet (ie. move so the contact point is not high)

with a western grip... it takes alot of effort to hit topspin and pace (see jackSock, berestegui)... do you think your daughter will be able to become that physical to rip the ball with a western grip...
IMO sw (or somewhere between eastern and sw), is the ideal grip, to get the right ratio of spin/pace with minimal effort

i'm short myself, and used to have a hawaiian/western grip... i had trouble hitting through the balll... my overly brushy topspin balls were great for an attrition game... but better opponents just smack my ball on the rise.
so i switched to a sw grip, to help me hit through the ball.
personally took me a year to get comfortable, but it was completely worth the change (gives me the right ratio of topspin and pace)

 

[CJ Tennis]

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[Celestialstar]

Thank you both for these thoughts. Not being much of a tennis player myself, I don't really understand the web links and nitty gritty. I appreciate these comments- please keep them coming!

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Go semi western all the way. Girls will not be able to generate enough spin to not have it sit up and be crushed when they get older.

The girls game is flatter and lower over the net than the boys. Watch something like the Orange Bowl finals and you will see it on display.

We have been at this for 10 years, from my daughter age 3 until now, age 13. We have seen so many coaches allow girls to hit with western grip and/or preach spin, spin, spin to girls. I have lost count of the number of girls for which this has resulted in a dead end once they got to the 16s.

it's a shame that coaches allowed them to continue hitting with a western grip.
the only explanation is not being able to explain short term losses in exchange for long term gains, to the parents.

 

[Racer41c]

Here's what I'd do: Google "Federer right wrist at impact" I'd then copy those alignments of hand, wrist, arm, elbow and racquet face without her holding the racquet. Be sure to put the racquet in front of her in the contact position. Have her then grip the racquet and see if it's the same grip or different. The odds are it will land on Semi Western. Once she's holding the racquet in that position, have her push it forward as you push it back. This will give her the feel of impacting the ball. Have her push forward with her back leg. She should have a natural platform of strength that extends through her arm to the racquet and it should be comfortable. I my opinion, using a full western grip at her age would put a lot of stress on her joints which should be avoided.

I've used this technique with kids hitting baseballs and it's worked great over the years to help a kid 'feel' where everything should be at contact. Hope it helps.

 

[CJ Tennis]

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[vex]

Played SW for years switched to Eastern and haven’t looked back. I have better feel for angles at contact and power with eastern. I found SW to be more inconsistent. Prob has to do with the fact that I’m a straight arm hitter.

But everyone is different.

Not a fan at all of Western. So much work for little results IMO.

Anyway, big fan of eastern, no noticeable change in spin once I figured out my swing path. Much easier for me to control my launch angles.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The eastern forehand grip is generally regarded as the most powerful grip. Very good for hitting low and medium height contact points. Players will often have a difficult time with high bouncing balls with an Eastern grip. Spin potential is decent. Sampras, Federer and Agassi use variations of the eastern grip.

A full western grip has the greatest topspin potential and is very good with high shots. It can be very difficult to use on a little shots. More difficult to hit flat and nearly impossible to hit underspin. Players using a full western grip often will hit the ball short or might not be able to put much forward speed on the ball. I usually discourage students from using for western grip. The SW grip is good compromise and is pretty much the de facto standard for the modern game.

I generally will let students use an Eastern or a SW grip or anything in between for their forehand. Continental grip on the forehand ground stroke only for drop shots and other underspent shots. Other than that, avoid the extremes — Avoid the full Western and avoid the continental for topspin ground strokes.

 

[Friedman Whip]

I'm trying to figure out how a ten year old girl gets into a western forehand grip in the first place. I'm talking about a western FH where the index knuckle is lined up on bevel number 5. Seems to me that it's difficult for a young kid to even hit a forehand over the net with this grip with the normal swing path that it requires. Now I've seen a lot of beginner younger kids hit big high moonballs back and forth with something similar to a western grip by taking a badmitton type swing with the racket pretty much straight up and down - getting almost underneath the ball and hitting it when it is about head high. I'm having a hard time picturing this situation.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I'm trying to figure out how a ten year old girl gets into a western forehand grip in the first place. I'm talking about a western FH where the index knuckle is lined up on bevel number 5. Seems to me that it's difficult for a young kid to even hit a forehand over the net with this grip with the normal swing path that it requires. Now I've seen a lot of beginner younger kids hit big high moonballs back and forth with something similar to a western grip by taking a badmitton type swing with the racket pretty much straight up and down - getting almost underneath the ball and hitting it when it is about head high. I'm having a hard time picturing this situation.

Not at all usual for young players to adopt a Western FH grip. The W Grip is very good for high bouncing balls. When you are a young kid, a high percentage of balls are high because you are so short. Seems like a natural choice. Often, when those kids are older and taller and still using W grip, it can become a liability.

 

[Curious]

Emphasis is always on the index knuckle position with grips but where your heelpad is also important isn't it? Especially for volleys. Your index knuckle maybe on the 2nd bevel for conti crip but at the same time the heelpad all the way from bevel 1 to 3, which will change the grip significantly. My coach used to check my heel pad all the time to see whether my grip was proper conti as my heelpad tended to slide towards bevel 1.

 

[golden chicken]

My reference points are second thumb knuckle and first index knuckle. Second thumb knuckle is always three bevels away. For RH continental, thumb knuckle on bevel 7 and index knuckle on bevel 2.

 

[Friedman Whip]

Emphasis is always on the index knuckle position with grips but where your heelpad is also important isn't it? Especially for volleys. Your index knuckle maybe on the 2nd bevel for conti crip but at the same time the heelpad all the way from bevel 1 to 3, which will change the grip significantly. My coach used to check my heel pad all the time to see whether my grip was proper conti as my heelpad tended to slide towards bevel 1.

Oh yeah. My personal version of continental grip is actually heel pad 2, knuckle 2 and a half.

 

[snvplayer]

My 10 year old plays a good game and is competitive in tournament tennis. Overall, her game is more about consistency than power. She has fast feet and a will to win. We have noted that her forehands are good but that the other kids at her level seem to have a more powerful forehand across the board.

A pro at another facility told us that part of the issue is that she uses a western grip and that her forehand needs to be broken and changed to a semi-western grip. He advised this would be a big change that would take a bit of transition time.

Can someone help me understand what the differences are to western and semi-western for juniors? When I google the grips, I see what the mechanical differences are but don't see much about the pros and cons and particularly as it relates to kids. We aren't sure what to do with this feedback. Thanks.

The pros of western grip to kids are
1) it's easier to deal with high balls (above shoulder levels). Each grip has its own "ideal contact zone". Western grip is above chest/shoulder height. Semiwestern is between shoulder and waist. The bounce of shots tend to be high for kids because of their height, so western grip can make it feel like it's easier to hit higher balls with western grip.

2)It can make them feel like they are more consistent. Western grip naturally puts more topspin on the ball - which means their shots are more likely to drop inside the lines. This can make them difficult to beat and look good, but this can mask any flaws or shortcomings in their skill or technique if there is any

The cons of western grip to kids are
1) More topspin usually means less speed. So, their shots won't look as fast unless they are strong enough to hit harder and drive.
2) Western grip gives you less leverage on the wide shot. It can be harder to hit aggressive forehand when pulled wide especially when they aren't quite strong. They will probably compensate by looping.
3) I think western grip usually puts a little more torque on the joint. Just my personal opinion/experience...

Semiwestern grip is more versatile grip - it's easier to apply topspin or to flatten out. It's definitely more conventional choice of grip. Everyone's a little different, but in general you want to avoid from the extremes.

Technical change at 10 year old isn't late at all. Some kid is more open to changes and trusting than others. Technical change will usually come with drop in performance...So, talk to your kid. Most top WTA players have semiwestern forehand girps...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@Curious @Friedman Whip

My reference points are second thumb knuckle and first index knuckle. Second thumb knuckle is always three bevels away. For RH continental, thumb knuckle on bevel 7 and index knuckle on bevel 2.

Are you serious? Never heard anyone using a thumb reference for tennis grips. Seems like an unnecessary complication. Base index knuckle is the primary reference. Heel pad is the secondary reference. The classic conti grip is a 2-2 grip (knuckle and heel pad both on bevel 2).

Some will use a different continental for serves than for volleys. Some may use a 2-1 grip for 2nd serves but might use something closer to a 2-2 for volleys and/or 1st serves. Serena supposedly uses some version of a semi-conti (2.5 bevel) for 1st serves. Boris Becker may have also used this for 1st servesand a more standard conti for 2nd serves.

It is possible that Pat Rafter used a semi-conti for high volleys (both Fh and Bh) and and a 2-2 conti for low volleys on both sides. Images and videos I’ve seen of his volleys suggest us.

 

[Chas Tennis]

1) The grip depends on the stroke. Determine your strokes with high speed video.

2) You can adjust the angle of the racket shaft to the palm by picking two contact points on the palm and racket handle. This give the forearm-to-racket shaft angle with a neutral wrist joint.

3) Once you have the contact points and have fixed the racket shaft to the palm, you can change the string direction to the palm by rotating the racket shaft to new bevels.

4) For high level strokes, the 'heel pad' or 'fat pad' of the hand is usually not where the butt of the racket contacts although there are many internet sources that say it is. More often the butt of the racket ends around the little finger. Look for the handle butt in high speed videos and pictures.

Try with a racket.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Not at all usual for young players to adopt a Western FH grip. The W Grip is very good for high bouncing balls. When you are a young kid, a high percentage of balls are high because you are so short. Seems like a natural choice. Often, when those kids are older and taller and still using W grip, it can become a liability.

additionally, i recall as a kid, how insanely satisfying it was to hit a crapton of topspin with an extreme western grip, and have my ~3.5 dad and his buddies, struggle with my spin... so that encouraged me to do it more...
but at 4.5+ everyone takes it on the rise.
arguably on clay it's ok to stick with that game style, as it's harder to take the ball on the rise (irregular bounces either due to spin or court surface, are amplified)... but it's a very grinding style of play...

 

[meltphace 6]

4) For high level strokes, the 'heel pad' or 'fat pad' of the hand is usually not where the butt of the racket contacts although there are many internet sources that say it is. More often the butt of the racket ends around the little finger. Look for the handle butt in high speed videos and pictures.

Try with a racket.

Some questions.

What is the definition of "high level stroke"? Do you think there's a connection between racquet properties (swing weight, balance point, etc.) and the point you make (4)?

Below is a pic of my forehand grip. It looks as if the butt of the racquet contacts the "heel pad" of my hand AND ends "around the little finger". I've accepted my forehand and don't want to change anything at the moment but how would I have to hold the racquet differently in case I wanted a "high level stroke"?

Please ignore my questions if it takes too much effort to answer. I don't want to waste your time since I won't change anything anyway.

 

[PMChambers]

I think more Eastern from Semi Western is good Not sure a pure Eastern {Hand Shake) grip is great but it does get basic mechanisms developed and once you have the strength changing to a more neutral Semi Western is not hard. I think anywhere from eastern to semi western is fine. More extreme grips require technique that can be problematic in today's game but probably OK if just a social player.

 

[PMChambers]

Some questions.

What is the definition of "high level stroke"? Do you think there's a connection between racquet properties (swing weight, balance point, etc.) and the point you make (4)?

Below is a pic of my forehand grip. It looks as if the butt of the racquet contacts the "heel pad" of my hand AND ends "around the little finger". I've accepted my forehand and don't want to change anything at the moment but how would I have to hold the racquet differently in case I wanted a "high level stroke"?

Please ignore my questions if it takes too much effort to answer. I don't want to waste your time since I won't change anything anyway.

Its a little hard to see where the v is or index finger knuckle lands but that looks almost continental or weak eastern It's a little disceptive as the top bevel in the photo is 8th bevel rather than 1st which is normally depicted. If the index knuckle lands on the small bevel it's continental if centre large than Eastern and likely in between so strong continental or weak eastern This is very old school pre 80s grip. Could be wrong photo funny angle

 

[Chas Tennis]

Some questions.

What is the definition of "high level stroke"? Do you think there's a connection between racquet properties (swing weight, balance point, etc.) and the point you make (4)?

Below is a pic of my forehand grip. It looks as if the butt of the racquet contacts the "heel pad" of my hand AND ends "around the little finger". I've accepted my forehand and don't want to change anything at the moment but how would I have to hold the racquet differently in case I wanted a "high level stroke"?

Please ignore my questions if it takes too much effort to answer. I don't want to waste your time since I won't change anything anyway.

What is the definition of "high level stroke"? As shown in high speed videos of current and recent ATP players with successful strokes. Many better tennis players use high level strokes that are similar. Forum posters have unknown strokes unless compared in videos and shown to have high level strokes.

Reference books such as the Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis and Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production, B Elliott et al. illustrate the kind of biomechanical stroke analyses that I consider models. See serve analysis. Books available from the ITF Store and Kindle.

Do you think there's a connection between racquet properties (swing weight, balance point, etc.) and the point you make (4)? NO for point #4. But racket characteristics are a smaller effect that I can't see or understand in high speed videos. I am most interested in subjects where high speed video can show what is going on. (Gold rush subjects like this grip issue..)

Below is a pic of my forehand grip. It looks as if the butt of the racquet contacts the "heel pad" of my hand AND ends "around the little finger". I've accepted my forehand and don't want to change anything at the moment but how would I have to hold the racquet differently in case I wanted a "high level stroke"? Your grip picture is close to what I see in high level strokes regarding the contact position of the butt cap near the little finger.
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Search: tennis grips fat pad pictures.

For example, pictures and videos of most ATP players with one hand grips do not often show the red dot contact point illustrated here.

From a thread on grips.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lly-the-fat-pad-doesnt-touch-anything.565060/

Post #16 -

"Following the discussion of reply # 12, I held the racket from the index knuckle to the fat pad and then to the little finger wrap around area. The blue line represents bevel #2 to the fat pad. The red line represents bevel #2 to the area of the little finger. The two "T"'s at the ends of each line were traces of the end of bevel #2.

Here is how the hand looks without the racket. The white bar can be used for a direction reference.

This is bevel #2 resting on the fat pad, blue line. Note the angle between the forearm and the racket.

This is bevel #2 to the area where the little finger wraps around the butt of the racket, red line. Note the decreased angle between the forearm and racket. I measured the angular difference between the red and blue lines on the hand in the first picture with a protractor as 10 degrees.

The two figures shown are applicable to the forearm-to-racket angle on the serve.

In my opinion 10d. is a large angle in biomechanics and especially for the forearm-to-racket angle for the serve. One point is that the kick serve has a smaller forearm-to-racket angle at impact."

Another thread on grips.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/can-someone-clarify-continental-grip.572263/

 

[PMChambers]

For example, pictures and videos of most ATP players with one hand grips do not often show the red dot contact point illustrated here.

This is not quiet correct, they're mixing FH and BH up without indicating which.
SW - Forehand
West - Forehand
East - Backhand (FH 4 & 3)
Ex East - Backhand (no FH equivalent)
Cont - FH and BH same either side.

 

[PMChambers]

Better add, some call grip between Eastern and Semi Western FH and extreme Eastern FH. But its not concensus. Gets called closed eastern, hard eastern, open SW soft SW, hybrid Eastern, Federer grip or Fedr

 

[golden chicken]

Are you serious? Never heard anyone using a thumb reference for tennis grips. Seems like an unnecessary complication. Base index knuckle is the primary reference. Heel pad is the secondary reference. The classic conti grip is a 2-2 grip (knuckle and heel pad both on bevel 2).

Yes, I am serious. I tend to hold the racket further down than most people. On serve, I used to have my pinkie 90% off the end of the buttcap and I used my ring finger to pivot the racket in my hand between my second thumb knuckle and first index knuckle. I used to tear the skin off the inside of my thumb knuckle until I grew callouses. Now, I tend to hold the racket on all strokes with my pinkie about 50% on the end of the buttcap, so the buttcap doesn't touch the heel of my hand at all. It looks much more like Chas Tennis's last photo than his second to last photo.

I don't think I would necessarily teach someone how I reference the racket bevels, unless it was a case where someone just wasn't getting it the traditional first index knuckle way. I just threw it out there because it is different than most people, but for me, it works and it may work for someone else.

 

[time_fly]

I'm trying to figure out how a ten year old girl gets into a western forehand grip in the first place. I'm talking about a western FH where the index knuckle is lined up on bevel number 5. Seems to me that it's difficult for a young kid to even hit a forehand over the net with this grip with the normal swing path that it requires. Now I've seen a lot of beginner younger kids hit big high moonballs back and forth with something similar to a western grip by taking a badmitton type swing with the racket pretty much straight up and down - getting almost underneath the ball and hitting it when it is about head high. I'm having a hard time picturing this situation.

Well in my son's case, he basically took his baseball grip and swing, and slid his top hand down the racquet. The results are that he uses a Western grip with a relatively flat swing, and he's a much better baseball player than tennis player.