Help me understand

Discussion in 'Other Equipment' started by Boyd Clary, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    377
    How my racket head speed correlates with pro's racket head speeds. If there a listing of average or, say, Fedalovic's racket head speed for the basic shots?

    I am wondering, because I have been hitting around w/Zepp sensor and the Sony. Getting racket head speeds which are consistent across platforms and am just curious as to what it really means. I mean, I know that I can compare me to me and see how I change... but what does it mean in the greater scheme.

    Would love to see:
    Serve
    Forehand
    Backhand
    avg swing speeds.

    Thanks!
     
    #1
  2. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    377
    I am guessing that no one has data on Racket Swing speeds? I certainly haven't been able to find, but am still curious.
     
    #2
  3. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    This is from the Zepp website for serve speeds by pros:
    "The standard for male tennis professionals, average serve speed is 100-135 mph. For female tennis professionals, average racket speed is around 80-105 mph.
    https://support.zepp.com/customer/portal/articles/1559107-ball-speed-potential?b_id=3042

    The usual standard for male tennis professionals is an average racket speed of 70-85 mph. For female tennis professionals, the average racket speed is around 55-70 mph."
    https://support.zepp.com/customer/portal/articles/1559027-racquet-speed-impact?b_id=3042"

    By knowing the racket speed you can somewhat figure out the ball speed. The ball speed is the speed you see on pro tennis matches on TV.

    It depends on your racket speed, but if you're hitting a racket speed of about 49mph like they show on the Zepp site, you're ball speed around 69mph. By knowing this, you can times your racket speed by about 1.41 (though the 1.41 formula does go up or down exponentially the faster or slower your racket speed)

    As far as average racket speed for forehands this is what I found online for BALL speed:
    "70-80 mph is usually the range for most professional tennis players (even the top WTA players). Jack Sock's average groundstroke speed was 75 mph. Serena's average groundstroke speed is almost always in the mid to high 70s"


    Not sure how good you are at math, but you can figure out ratios from the racket and ball speed measures they give you. As a rule of thumb (NOT perfect) times your racket speed by about 1.45 (this is the ratio of 55mph racket speed to get 80mph ball speed) (goes up and down exponentially) and you'll get a fairly close ball speed+-.

    I have to say that I have the Babolat Pop Piq sensor (the one that allows you to see your serve speed right away on the readout) and I am demoing the Zepp sensor now from TW and the Zepp is 8mph faster than my Piq.

    I've heard that the Zepp is more accurate, so I'm going with that:) Now I have to up my piq speed 8mph and times by 1.45+-!
     
    #3
  4. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    So a male pro is typically hitting 55mph racket speed for a forehand based on the the 80mph ball speed.

    And not to sound like a jerk, but if you google: "average racket serve speed" the zepp results I shared come up second.

    Sometimes just googling what you're wondering will result in a good result. Though I do realize sometimes people type something logical in and can't for the life of them find the answer (or find an answer that's misleading or not quite close enough). That's why it's also good to ask here.
     
    #4
  5. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    377
    I eventually found the info from Zepp, but i am sure that it exists in other areas but can't find published data.

    And i wonder, because according to my zepp sensor, my average racket speed on serves in a match is 80mph. In practice, i peak at 97mph. For ground strokes I average 53mph on the forehand and 46 on the backhand, with "peaks" in the low 70's for my forehand and high 70's for my backhand - flat and top-spin strokes. The slices are faster, but also "wristy".

    Based off the Zepp sensor readings i have potential 1st serve speeds of approaching 140...

    I really wanted to find out how realistic these speeds are, but for me over multiple resets and practices (prob 35hours total time) it is nothing if not consistent. And interestingly the few times i have been pulled out of my "game" when using in match play, my racket speed dropped on average 18%- I was pushing...
     
    #5
  6. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    Andy Roddick, I knew it was you!

    Seriously though, this seems off, but I have no idea what level of play(ed) at, so maybe you truly are A Rodesque.

    Do your opponents or friends you play with struggle with your serve? Do your friends tell you it's coming in fast?

    My PIQ Sensor Tennis Wristband (similar to the POP and the only diff is, is that it shows the speed instantly on the device) shows speeds 8-12mph slower than the Zepp for racket speed. I tested my PIQ against a radar gun and it was fairly accurate +-.

    There’s been research showing that players can generally expect that the ball speed will average 25% – 50% faster than the actual racquet swing speed so knowing your racquet speed you can roughly estimate your ball speed.

    Maybe you need an update, maybe you're not calibrating it right, maybe, maybe etc... If this is truly your speed (even if it's 10mph) then quit typing and get on the dang tour!

    I've read that calibrating wrong, or having it held at a certain angle, swinging funny etc. can garner bad results.


    At any rate, even if it isn't super accurate, you're finding out that you're holding back in your matches on your serves. This is good data and if you are hitting hard and it's off by 10mph compared to a radar gun, then it's still a useful tool.

    The ball speed is also projected ball speed, but I bet a lot of thought went into that calculation. The only way for you to know is to get a hold of radar gun and see what you get.

    Here's how to use a radar gun to get your speed. Maybe your local club has a gun or you can find them pretty cheap now and tech has improved a lot over the years:



    Good luck! It is interesting and these tools are only going to get better.
     
    #6
  7. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    377
    With regard to my power, college football player (lineman) so never been an issue. Control is my issue. These stats are my normal playing, not banging away. I like to play with people who hit hard, and crafty players give me fits tbh. I have been told that my serve is 110-120's, by former Div players. But, IDK.

    With regard to the Zepp or PIP or Sony Sensor it would be real nice to see a review comparing them to PLAYSITE data to know how real they were, and to have some data from other players available for comparison.

    I do find that in "serve mode" the sensor records 5-8mph faster than in normal sensing mode on serves, for what it matters.

    For me, I use it to assess how I am playing vs other playing outings. I use the pro-mount and know that I am calibrating it correctly (and re-calibrate every time I use it).

    At this point, moving away from using it regularly, and will use it more to check in on how I am progressing.
     
    #7
  8. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    I'd say you probably are serving 100mph to 120mph then. I'd rather return 120mph flat than 100mph with spin though.

    If you're trying to get the racket speed as fast as you can, but you have no control then I'm probably not telling you anything, the speed is worthless. It then becomes like a strongman carnival game.

    From what you're saying about "serve mode", the Zepp is close to the Piq, because I only tried the Zepp in serve mode.

    Like I said before though, I tested my Babolat Piq (basically the POP) against a gun and it was pretty accurate. Within a few MPH. The gun was checking racket speed.

    I had my serve checked against a gun for ball speed and it's pretty close to what I get with my Piq sensor. Since they are consistent even if the MPH is off by +-.

    I've seen top rated speed guns go for $100 bucks or so. They are not as pricey as they used to be. Maybe get your pals to split it with you if they are interested too.

    These things are basically a cr@ppy speed gun ball counter. They get the speed pretty close and keep track of of it for you and give you some other data. For 100 bucks that's not bad.

    These devices will only get better in the future and I think they add some fun element to the game, plus give you an idea of how you do in practice and matches.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    #8
  9. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    Very interested to see what other people are finding. I don't believe mid 70's avg and peak racket speeds in the low 80's is 120 serve speed. I've got a decent serve, I'm hitting these numbers in every session. I'm an athletic 52 year old, my guess is high 90's with occasional close to 100 actual speed. So 83 racket speed is maybe 95 or something. And I use a pure drive plus, so it's popping more than on my 95s and I still don't believe I'm over 100 actual ball speed.
     
    #9
  10. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    Cool story bro. I suppose you know more than a company that dedicated years to research and development.
     
    #10
  11. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    And you claim to know the algorithm they are using? Didn't think so.... zepp ain't babolat...
     
    #11
  12. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    377
    Well there is the disclaimer of "potential" ball speed based off that racket speed.
     
    GameSetBeer likes this.
    #12
  13. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    Troll. Facts are horrid things, aren't they? Pearls before swine I tell you
     
    #13
  14. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    Physics bro.
     
    #14
  15. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    But to be fair, it really depends on how you think ball speed is being calculated. Calculating right off the racket (where the pros get clocked) or when it reaches your opponent are going to be drastically different speeds.

    If you're going for ball speed like what shows up in pro matches (ball speed right off the racket) then ball speed will average 25% – 50% (notice, not exact) faster than the actual racquet swing speed. It's all over the google, it's not like it's some hidden secret sauce.
     
    #15
  16. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    Well- I'm an engineer and 'all over google' isn't good enough.


    How about everyone with a babolat pop start helping to correlate real data so we can figure this out.

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
    #16
  17. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    I'm sharing because I really want to understand more....And here is this serie thing graph on the pop from today.

    How about everyone with a babolat pop start data so we can figure this out. Data today was from a practice session then two sets at the end. My first serve was about as good as it gets in the first set. I'm still guessing actual ball speed is 100 at best. I'll head to Orlando soon and try out the playsight courts if I can get on one.


    . [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
    #17
  18. GameSetBeer

    GameSetBeer Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    USA
    Remind me not to go over any bridges you designed
     
    #18
  19. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    I can tell you're a genius, by your logic I'm hitting a lot of 120mph serves. Go out of your way to be a di@@ much?

    Babolat doesn't try and calculate a speed factor in their algorithm on the pop? You know this? Share your data, let's see your pop serie. Probably can't afford one....

    Any actual pop users out there so I don't have to dialogue with this DA anymore?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #19
  20. beltsman

    beltsman Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,818
    Location:
    Strong era
    Just measure the sensor and radar gun side by side. Problem solved.
     
    #20
  21. Dan W

    Dan W New User

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Does Playsight calculate serve speed off the racket? I haven't looked into that so I don't know how this correlates, but the last time I played on a Playsight court and was wearing my POP (this was over a year ago so algorithms may have likely changed), my max serve speed was low 90's with Playsight and mid 70's on POP.
     
    #21
  22. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    Yea, except I don't have a radar gun. I did get to use a babolat play racket today though. I wasn't cranking all out for most serves, but I found that the data is very similar to the pop- within reason.

    So the pop is clearly trying to estimate ball speed.

    Now this makes sense. My old *** is probably peaking out around 90mph when I'm really on. Maybe 95 when I'm using my pure drive plus rackets. The pop is taking a pretty good shot at it, not bad at all.

    Here is the data from the Play racket:

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #22
  23. tim-ay

    tim-ay New User

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Florida
    Thank you for this. Very interesting and based on data and experience. I would guess playsight is ball coming off the racket, otherwise speeds would drop off too much and not correlate to court measurements from guns.

    Maybe in 2 weeks I'll get on a playsight court and see if I can confirm what you also saw.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #23
  24. mike1ace

    mike1ace New User

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    6
    A less costly way to estimate average and peak serve speed is to simply use an iphone video. Use speed = distance/time to get the average speed. Time can be found by counting the frames from contact until impact on the court. You can determine the frames per second by using quicktime player and seeing how many frames cause the seconds counter to trip. Standard iphone video will normally be 30 fps. Video several serves so that you can get one where you get both the contact point and impact point. Estimate the distance the ball traveled (60 ft. from baseline to opposite service line). This will give you average speed. Then multiply by 1.186 to get approximate peak speed. Here's an example: Serve hit at ~54 ft with 13 frames from contact to impact. 54*30 fps/13 frames = 124.6 ft/s. 124.6 ft/s * 15/22 = 84.965 mph average speed. 1.186 * 84.965 = 100.77 mph. That was my fastest for my first attempt at this, most were in the low 90 mph range for peak speed. You can be more accurate by using slow motion video but it is going to be a huge file. My factor for peak speed comes from a screen shot of an app showing a max speed of 103 mph vs an average speed of 88 mph and then using the fact that the ball travels about 1.4% further due to being hit from about 9 feet above the ground. If the app included that then my estimate is about 1.4 mph too high. If you want to be conservative use 1.17 instead of 1.186. The factor will vary somewhat with initial serve speed but it is close enough given that there is a bit of estimating involved.
     
    #24
  25. gplracer

    gplracer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    1,618
    My son got higher speed results on the playsight court in Orlando than he did on his Sony sensor.
     
    #25
  26. gplracer

    gplracer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    1,618
    My son's serve according to the sony sensor averages 14mph slower ball speed than his swing speed. Also, it says his serve speed was faster 2 years ago. There is no way that is correct.
     
    #26

Share This Page