help on serve?

[naturallight]

I play 4.5 and my serve is the weakest part of my game. I’d love to improve the pace, consistency, and free points (there aren’t many).

Some things I am working on now (and still need to keep working on)

• higher contact point
• ball toss a little more to the left
• “quieting” the lower body with less knee bend and instead bowing my hips forward like the bow of any arrow.

Any other tips? Should I think about some lessons?

Thanks!

 

[TheBoom]

Really good! Biggest things are
1. Loosen your grip. It looks like you have quite a tight grip and you’ll get more power loosening your wrist.

And

2. Get your hips more into your serve. Nailed it by describing it as a “bow” with your body. Keep working on it and you’ll add serious power.

You already do a great job bending your knees and your motion is pretty smooth. Keep up the great work!

**second ball toss was low, but the first was good so I don’t think that’s a serious issue with your serve. Just a minor error.**

 

[washingmachine]

I think your racket can go back further to generate more racket head speed on the upswing. The reason why it's not going back far enough is because you're holding the racket too tight. You can keep the ball toss the same height, but you'll need to work on bending your knees more (which might be difficult) and increasing the racket head speed.

 

[Dragy]

Your biggest issue right now is in your arm and near the actual contact. Contact height is part of it, but possibly consequence.

What’s most glaring, is your bent arm and trying to hit the ball as if you are using a flyswatter — leading with the head, pushing it forward and over.

Meanwhile best technique would imply:
- Pulling the handle to achieve racquet head going where it needs to go. This is quite a simplification, but you might benefit a lot from mostly focusing on this

- Having racquet head “inside” the arm — to the left in your case. So as you pull the handle, racquet head should follow around, not just over the hand.

If you combine this with overall more relaxed forearm and wrist, releasing racquet head into the ball instead of pushing (after you initially accelerated the whole racquet with your overall good whole body involvement and then upward throwing motion) — it will feel much better and allow you to find best contact point and smoothen everything else. And finally — get significant power boost and free points.

* I would limit leg drive for practice purposes first and do grounded serves with focus on the arm, powered by smooth uncoiling.

 

[mad dog1]

I play 4.5 and my serve is the weakest part of my game. I’d love to improve the pace, consistency, and free points (there aren’t many).

Some things I am working on now (and still need to keep working on)

• higher contact point
• ball toss a little more to the left
• “quieting” the lower body with less knee bend and instead bowing my hips forward like the bow of any arrow.

Any other tips? Should I think about some lessons?

Thanks!

Yes, you should definitely get some lessons but you need to find a good coach. If you are in Denver, you should try to get in touch with Meike Babel.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Compare your serve to pro. The bent elbow that Draggy pointed out means you are not using the pro technique. Find sharp high speed videos (as 240 fps) and look at the elbow angles approaching impacts.

If you put a bend in your arm and do Internal Shoulder Rotation, the head of the racket will move in a complicated way that will depend on that angle. Suppose your angle at impact varies? When you use a near straight elbow, there is probably less variation in the head position & orientation between serves - to be determined by measurements, someday. You will not be able to compare your serve to a pro because you have changed their technique to a DIY serving technique involving a bent elbow.

I have seen a technique where ISR may be used for significant racket head speed, but the forearm is too vertical and the elbow is bent. (Very rough estimate - 1 of 20 of posted serve videos and not a Waiter's Tray). I think that your technique might be that technique. I don't study other techniques, other than to point out it is a different, DIY technique. (DIY - Do-it-Yourself)

If you decide to change your technique, Todd Ellenbecker has a video called "Rotator Cuff Injury". See the posts on the forum and Ellenbecker's video that recommends not to put the upper arm at too high an angle to the shoulder as it increases the risk of impingement. ATP players are usually examples of good practice. Tennis Resources has the video available for viewing the last I checked. Pay for 3 month membership and view their videos. The thread with David Whiteside's posts has a lot of discussion.

 

[tendency]

I play 4.5 and my serve is the weakest part of my game. I’d love to improve the pace, consistency, and free points (there aren’t many).

Some things I am working on now (and still need to keep working on)

• higher contact point
• ball toss a little more to the left
• “quieting” the lower body with less knee bend and instead bowing my hips forward like the bow of any arrow.

Any other tips? Should I think about some lessons?

Thanks!

You must have a helluva return game, FH, BH netplay etc. to beat people at the 4.5 level w/ that serve sorry, not trying to be a d!ck.

You have a decent motion but there are significant issues with your unload into the ball concerning shoulder rotation etc. (@Dragy touched on these). best advice, as others mentioned, is to find a good coach to address these problems.

 

[Digital Atheist]

You must have a helluva return game, FH, BH netplay etc. to beat people at the 4.5 level w/ that serve sorry, not trying to be a d!ck.

Then I would say you succeeded without even trying. I guess we can't all be that lucky!

 

[ballmachineguy]

Then I would say you succeeded without even trying. I guess we can't all be that lucky!

I was gonna say the same thing as T. It’s nice to have someone else carry the load at times.

 

[naturallight]

You must have a helluva return game, FH, BH netplay etc. to beat people at the 4.5 level w/ that serve sorry, not trying to be a d!ck.

You have a decent motion but there are significant issues with your unload into the ball concerning shoulder rotation etc. (@Dragy touched on these). best advice, as others mentioned, is to find a good coach to address these problems.

ha ha I do love me some groundie games. Also it might not be clear on the video, but what my serve lacks in ascetics and pace, it somewhat makes up for in accuracy. Even with 4.5s there's often a huge delta on forehand return vs backhand return.

 

[naturallight]

I think your racket can go back further to generate more racket head speed on the upswing. The reason why it's not going back far enough is because you're holding the racket too tight. You can keep the ball toss the same height, but you'll need to work on bending your knees more (which might be difficult) and increasing the racket head speed.

I run into big problems if I bend my knees more--it makes it harder for my chest to be pointing up, and then the serve goes into the net. The Serve Doctor video has a good segment on this subject.

Hmm, not sure how I can hold my racquet looser. Do you mean just a looser wrist?

 

[naturallight]

Yes, you should definitely get some lessons but you need to find a good coach. If you are in Denver, you should try to get in touch with Meike Babel.

My friends have gone to Meike's classes on dubs strategy and have rave reviews.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

R elbow a bit too low during trophy phase. This might result in timing issues. The elbow should be more in line with the shoulder tilt. (Might also try to get the L shoulder a bit higher for the trophy phase for a better shoulder tilt).

Definitely need to reach up a bit more for contact. A very mild bend (comfortably straight) might be ok but much too much bend at contact on this serve. A better trophy elbow position may or may not help with timing for getting the arm straighter at contact.

 

[badmice2]

Your weight transfer is wrong. The rock back is fine but get your weight on your left knee before you toss the ball, hence you’re having issues with your load.

Instead, work on syncing your forward momentum (step up) AFTer your ball toss. Should be toss - step - knee bend.

 

[Steady Eddy]

You must have a helluva return game, FH, BH netplay etc. to beat people at the 4.5 level w/ that serve sorry, not trying to be a d!ck.

You have a decent motion but there are significant issues with your unload into the ball concerning shoulder rotation etc. (@Dragy touched on these). best advice, as others mentioned, is to find a good coach to address these problems.

Then what about MEP? He succeeds at 4.5 and his 'serve' doesn't seem to do more than put the ball in play.

 

[Digital Atheist]

I was gonna say the same thing as T. It’s nice to have someone else carry the load at times.

With @Curious strangely absent, I would've thought your workload much lighter these days!

Your biggest issue right now is in your arm and near the actual contact. Contact height is part of it, but possibly consequence.

What’s most glaring, is your bent arm and trying to hit the ball as if you are using a flyswatter — leading with the head, pushing it forward and over.

+1. In case you are confused, this is what you want to try and avoid.

There are some other things to look at also. Camera angle isn't very good but your toss could use a revamp.

First frame is right about your release (yes, you are about to let the ball go). That's very early (should be approximately eye level), and also the arm appears bent and tucked in to your body. This is all wrong. Here is a good summary of the serve toss.

As you load into trophy, you have a large lean or tilt back and when you drive with your legs to go up at the ball, your entire body continues to fall left. See below:

It is only in that last frame that you start to move directly up. Observe the position of your tossing arm in frames 3 and 4 - in your case it should fall more on your right side before tucking, but you can't help use it as a counterbalance.

I run into big problems if I bend my knees more--it makes it harder for my chest to be pointing up, and then the serve goes into the net. The Serve Doctor video has a good segment on this subject.

That's because you bend then tilt then get stuck as you fall to the left. Imo you need to rebuild starting with learning a fundamentally sound toss and work from there. I would also learn a proper upper body/arm action while working on the toss, since that is the cause of your bent arm at contact.

I am curious, how is your throw?

Edit: some of those things are made to look worse than they are due to camera angle. Try recording from higher up if possible (5 or 6 feet).

 

[fuzz nation]

I run into big problems if I bend my knees more--it makes it harder for my chest to be pointing up, and then the serve goes into the net. The Serve Doctor video has a good segment on this subject.

Hmm, not sure how I can hold my racquet looser. Do you mean just a looser wrist?

Most of us get generally too tight through the racquet arm if gripping pressure is too much. If the arm can remain more loose and fluid, there's less restriction when swinging over the top through contact. A looser arm is typically faster for things like a serve or a throwing motion.

If you sense that you need to use some grip pressure to keep your racquet from slipping out of your hand when you swing faster, you might benefit from having just a little extra flare at the butt end of your handle. I'm not saying that we all need to turn the end of our racquet handles into doorknobs, but having enough of bump at the handle's end helps keep the racquet in our hands using relatively light pressure.

When I build up the flare on my handle, I just place one or two layers of old overgrip on top of the butt cap, tape it so that it stays snug, and then cover that along with the rest of the handle using a new overgrip.

Aside from being able to hold onto the racquet using lighter grip pressure for fast swings, there's another factor to help with swinging loose and fast. The tempo of your motion and your swing timing (relative to when you toss) should contribute to an unrushed swing. Take some practice motions without hitting a ball and focus on staying loose through a full release. Listen to the "whoosh" - hopefully it happens up in the neighborhood of your contact zone and not further out in front of you.

Once you've got the feel of that full, fluid release with those practice motions, hit two or three serves - don't worry about placement, just focus on that tempo. If you find yourself suddenly steering the racquet or arming it to the ball with an overactive wrist/arm, you might need to tweak your sequence so that your actual serve remains as loose as that practice motion.

Although you don't look like you're trying to catch up to your toss by arming your racquet to the ball in a late rush, your arm does look like it's a little tight in that video clip (thanks for posting!!). You might be more comfortable with performing a looser motion if you also set your racquet just a little earlier ahead of your toss. Not at all mandatory, but something that could be worth a try. Just take your racquet directly to that "set" position (trophy pose) so that it's ready to drop-and-release whenever that toss arrives where you want it. One more way to help with taking the rush out of the overall move to the ball.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Comparing videos to ATP serves is the best information. For most accurate comparisons, the camera angles should be as close as possible to your camera angles.

Very few Youtube videos that were recorded with the camera on the ground so you will waste a lot of time finding ATP serves to compare when using a towel as a tripod. One of my cheap tripods cost about $20. A tall tripod was about $40. (Polaroid)

It is easier to first find an ATP Youtube taken with a ground level camera mounted on a tripod - then duplicate the ATP serve video that you found.. Also, with camera looking along the ball's trajectory and showing the bounce. Then you can find very similar camera angles in ATP serves - because it is a very popular camera arrangement. This is particularly important to get the racket drop and show the orientation of the upper arm are out from the body to the side.

Videos from higher angles that show the ball bounce are my favorite for comparisons.

Best is an elevated camera from behind - camera looks right along the ball's trajectory and sees the bounce.

See ball spin and bounce.

But at the court you need a step ladder.

Hand held cameras work OK but you want to stay in one place and not be walking. A camera mounted on the fence does not work to cover the bounce as you need a steeper down angle to get the bounce with a close up as the ball flies away curving down.

Instead of camera looking along the ball's trajectory have it looking along the hand's path at the time of impact. That shows the hand path, and racket path with ISR at the time of impact and gives an indication of the angle of those paths to the ball's trajectory. Of course, the best camera for these paths is the camera overhead shot.

Only the high level serve technique with ISR will display this signature. See 1:05.

You need a recording frame rate of about 240 fps for tennis strokes and a very fast shutter speed to minimize motion blur. Most high speed cameras have automatic exposure control and it is difficult to know the shutter speed. Shutter speed is minimized in bright sunlight, so if you have too much motion blur video in bright sunlight. I still recommend the Casio cameras with high speed video modes. They are low resolution but have shutter speed down to 25 microseconds with full manual control. I bought a Casio Ex-FH100 used for $85.

SEARCHTENNISSTROKEVIDEO

 

[Chas Tennis]

Comparing videos to ATP serves is the best information. For most accurate comparisons, the camera angles should be as close as possible to your camera angles.

Very few Youtube videos that were recorded with the camera on the ground so you will waste a lot of time finding ATP serves to compare when using a towel as a tripod. One of my cheap tripods cost about $20. A tall tripod was about $40. (Polaroid)

It is easier to first find an ATP Youtube taken with a ground level camera mounted on a tripod - then duplicate the ATP serve video that you found.. Also, with camera looking along the ball's trajectory and showing the bounce. Then you can find very similar camera angles in ATP serves - because it is a very popular camera arrangement. This is particularly important to get the racket drop and show the orientation of the upper arm are out from the body to the side.

Videos from higher angles that show the ball bounce are my favorite for comparisons.

Best is an elevated camera from behind - camera looks right along the ball's trajectory and sees the bounce.

See ball spin and bounce.

But at the court you need a step ladder.

Hand held cameras work OK but you want to stay in one place and not be walking. A camera mounted on the fence does not work to cover the bounce as you need a steeper down angle to get the bounce with a close up as the ball flies away curving down.

Instead of camera looking along the ball's trajectory have it looking along the hand's path at the time of impact. That shows the hand path, and racket path with ISR at the time of impact and gives an indication of the angle of those paths to the ball's trajectory. Of course, the best camera for these paths is the camera overhead shot.

Only the high level serve technique with ISR will display this signature. See 1:05.

You need a recording frame rate of about 240 fps for tennis strokes and a very fast shutter speed to minimize motion blur. Most high speed cameras have automatic exposure control and it is difficult to know the shutter speed. Shutter speed is minimized in bright sunlight, so if you have too much motion blur video in bright sunlight. I still recommend the Casio cameras with high speed video modes. They are low resolution but have shutter speed down to 25 microseconds with full manual control. I bought a Casio Ex-FH100 used for $85.

SEARCHTENNISSTROKEVIDEO

With the OP's technique it is impossible to hit a kick serve.

How could the OP cause the strings to rise with speed when impacting the ball?

He can't.

 

[Digital Atheist]

But at the court you need a step ladder.

Any standard camera tripod, or even your everyday gorilla tripod (one you attach to the back fence or similar) will allow for video that is the same as a lot of professional practice footage.

https://www.amazon.com/JOBY-GorillaPod-325-Compact-Flexible-dp-B074WC6W5H/dp/B074WC6W5H

 

[badmice2]

With the OP's technique it is impossible to hit a kick serve.

How do you get the strings to rise with speed when impacting the ball?

It’s possible, he will have to change his toss and a few adjustments. He has the bulk of the technique down.

 

[Chas Tennis]

It’s possible, he will have to change his toss and a few adjustments. He has the bulk of the technique down.

How does his racket head move up with pace? The kick serve tilts the racket head up rapidly, but it is already up about as far as it can go.....?

Compare to ATP kick serves from the same camera angle.

One should explain to one's self how the kick serve impacts the ball. If you don't have it clearly. search videos that will show you. That worked for me.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Any standard camera tripod, or even your everyday gorilla tripod (one you attach to the back fence or similar) will allow for video that is the same as a lot of professional practice footage.

https://www.amazon.com/JOBY-GorillaPod-325-Compact-Flexible-dp-B074WC6W5H/dp/B074WC6W5H

This worked and I had steps to get up to align and focus the camera and then to push the video start button. The camera is higher than the server and placed closer to the server so the angle can be adjusted. The fence is lower and has a fixed position. The spin on the ball can be seen.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Any standard camera tripod, or even your everyday gorilla tripod (one you attach to the back fence or similar) will allow for video that is the same as a lot of professional practice footage.

https://www.amazon.com/JOBY-GorillaPod-325-Compact-Flexible-dp-B074WC6W5H/dp/B074WC6W5H

I used a cheap tripod and strapped it on the outside of the fence, maybe with a sponge between the tripod and fence to soften ball hits there. That way I could use the gear height adjustment of the tripod and head angle adjustment to adjust the camera so that its lens looked through the wire in the chain link fence. The gorilla tripod does not allow camera safe mounting with tripod head adjustments (I should have added something in the fence wire so that a ball could not get through the opening.) I never place my cameras inside and on the fence where they might get hit or on a tripod if they might get hit.

The overhead camera is a valuable and rare observation, that provides many important angles accurately. By the same token, the under-impact camera provides the same angles and does not require - somehow - holding the camera above the players.

Application of High Speed Video to Tennis Strokes - School

Want to use high speed video to observe something about a tennis stroke? Post what you would like to observe. #SEARCH_VIDEO_TENNIS_STROKES

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

I took some forehand shots to demonstrate that it worked and posted. I used a ball machine, placed the camera on a towel and blocked the feed balls from hitting the camera with my tennis bag.

Kinovea used for video analysis. Avoid the sun in the camera.


If some college or ATP player wanted to work on a stroke, I'd be glad to consult on the camera work. A lot of it has been posted here.

 

[Digital Atheist]

This worked and I had steps get up align and focus the camera and then to push the video start button. The camera is higher than the server and placed closer to the server so the angle can be adjusted. The fence is lower and has a fixed position.

Looks like fun! Just one question - where's the video?