Help with ATP backhand

BaddJordan

New User
Hi guys, I have been transitioning my my WTA forehand into the ATP forehand (macci style) but I am a bit confused with the backhand.

On the forehand I learnt to pull with the upper arm so the racket goes back by itself, but what do I do on the backhand? Like on essential tennis, they say Novak drops his racket but Macci says its a pull and the racket goes down by itself like the forehand. If it is a pull, what body part do I pull? I am so confused. Please help.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I don't think it'd be a pull unless he just angles the racquet and is pulling the wrist along now for his swing...but I don't see Novak pulling anything. I just see a unit turn where he's sometimes beyond perpendicular to net shoulder wise, wrist angles and position and that's it.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Hi guys, I have been transitioning my my WTA forehand into the ATP forehand (macci style) but I am a bit confused with the backhand.

On the forehand I learnt to pull with the upper arm so the racket goes back by itself, but what do I do on the backhand? Like on essential tennis, they say Novak drops his racket but Macci says its a pull and the racket goes down by itself like the forehand. If it is a pull, what body part do I pull? I am so confused. Please help.
Macci recommends pulling the racquet with the bottom hand and then the top hand takes over creating the flip.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Macci recommends pulling the racquet with the bottom hand and then the top hand takes over creating the flip.

That's just weird to me cause then you're using a little energy with your right hand when it should really be your left hand doing most of it, if not really pushing the racket and not the right pulling.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That's just weird to me cause then you're using a little energy with your right hand when it should really be your left hand doing most of it, if not really pushing the racket and not the right pulling.

2hbhs are impossible to describe with words. :D

That, however doesn't stop me. I never feel like I'm pulling with the right hand. I feel like I start forward with a relaxed arm triangle working together. It's like both arms together are an elephant's trunk, relaxed ... and it get sent on it's way from your shoulder turn into the shot. At some point (depending on player's 2hbh), the rotation of the racquet forward around the butt cap. This is the point of the active left arm/hand in the stroke. Pros like Agassi and Djokovic can delay that rotation to the last. Many rec players won't even have the rotation (butt cap forward), and then it's just a old style FH type of swing. I suspect on those, the left arm/hand fire right when shoulders start uncoiling.

Just my 2 cents, which can't be proven wrong since it can't be done with words. :D
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
That's just weird to me cause then you're using a little energy with your right hand when it should really be your left hand doing most of it, if not really pushing the racket and not the right pulling.
It's really the Agassi style... it's weird to me too.
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
I made a thread on racquet lag stretch/extend on the 2hbh which got like 1 reply so I doubt you'll get much sense here. My 2hbh is excellent now after I discounted a lot of advice I see which I assume is from people who I think still hit with fixed wrists:

Totally relaxed shoulders
Pull from the right shoulder and leave your left arm as soft and floppy as you can (very important). Be sure to not raise the left shoulder at all, it feels like it comes through 'under' the right
If you manage that right, the racquet does the stretch/extend whip like the ATP fh and the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through
Any tension and any attempt to actively use the left arm and this goes wrong and you end up with an awkward forced shot not a freely flowing whip

I'd suggest doing air swings focusing on relaxation and a freely flowing swing with no hitches or awkwardness, it is very easy to have the left arm screw this up. I don't understand why the top pros don't keep the racquet tip pointing in front of the hand like the 'ATP' forehand, when I try it it works pretty well too.
 
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iChen

Semi-Pro
I made a thread on racquet lag stretch/extend on the 2hbh which got like 1 reply so I doubt you'll get much sense here. My 2hbh is excellent now after I discounted a lot of advice I see which I assume is from people who I think still hit with fixed wrists:

Totally relaxed shoulders
Pull from the right shoulder and leave your left arm as soft and floppy as you can (very important). Be sure to not raise the left shoulder at all, it feels like it comes through 'under' the right
If you manage that right, the racquet does the stretch/extend whip like the ATP fh and the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through
Any tension and any attempt to actively use the left arm and this goes wrong and you end up with an awkward forced shot not a freely flowing whip

I'd suggest doing air swings focusing on relaxation and a freely flowing swing with no hitches or awkwardness, it is very easy to have the left arm screw this up. I don't understand why the top pros don't keep the racquet tip pointing in front of the hand like the 'ATP' forehand, when I try it it works pretty well too.

First, dunno why everyone's all about this "whip". But why wouldn't the left arm be used? It's going to be a main ingredient in the swing along with the body uncoiling. Also why would you keep the racquet tip pointing in front? It has to be turned when you swing.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I made a thread on racquet lag stretch/extend on the 2hbh which got like 1 reply so I doubt you'll get much sense here. My 2hbh is excellent now after I discounted a lot of advice I see which I assume is from people who I think still hit with fixed wrists:

Totally relaxed shoulders
Pull from the right shoulder and leave your left arm as soft and floppy as you can (very important). Be sure to not raise the left shoulder at all, it feels like it comes through 'under' the right
If you manage that right, the racquet does the stretch/extend whip like the ATP fh and the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through
Any tension and any attempt to actively use the left arm and this goes wrong and you end up with an awkward forced shot not a freely flowing whip

I'd suggest doing air swings focusing on relaxation and a freely flowing swing with no hitches or awkwardness, it is very easy to have the left arm screw this up. I don't understand why the top pros don't keep the racquet tip pointing in front of the hand like the 'ATP' forehand, when I try it it works pretty well too.

I liked most of that up until "don't actively use the left arm". Maybe you just mean at the start of the forward swing... because somewhere in that forward swing before contact the left arm/hand "actively gets after it".
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
First, dunno why everyone's all about this "whip". But why wouldn't the left arm be used? It's going to be a main ingredient in the swing along with the body uncoiling. Also why would you keep the racquet tip pointing in front? It has to be turned when you swing.

The left arm is used. You don't point the racquet head forward (if I understood @bitcoinoperated correctly) like a Jack Sock FH ... because there are 2 hands involved and you can't duplicate the FH flip. At least not exactly ... watch Nadal in slow motion, and he comes close.

The "whip" ... or "snap" is just an attempt to describe the action at the hands that happen on many high level 2hbhs. Watch Djokovic or Agassi slow motion 2hbh. Note the butt cap going forward toward target (actually past the line of the target). Also note earlier at the back of the slot the racquet head dropped below the hands. In order to hit big pace with a 2hbh, the arms and hands have to be relaxed so the hands act as a hinge in the stroke. Try to to hit a stiff arm/hand 2hbh ... weak tea, not much on it. But let the racquet head drop below the hands, and lead with the butt cap forward ... and then let those hands work together as a relaxed hinge with the racquet head rapidly rotating around the butt cap ... EASY pace. (Assuming you had a good shoulder turn.

Later the whip/release the better as far as easy pace. I will come back and edit this and add a cool Djokovic pic on "the late whip thing".

EDIT: Check out Djokovic's racquet below. The ball is almost on him, and the butt cap is still pointed forward. The racquet head has to flip around by contact from a very short distance... max RHS. I'm happy if my racquet rotates around at the belly button.

YG5tbKOm.gif
 
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iChen

Semi-Pro
The left arm is used. You don't point the racquet head forward (if I understood @bitcoinoperated correctly) like a Jack Sock FH ... because there are 2 hands involved and you can't duplicate the FH flip. At least not exactly ... watch Nadal in slow motion, and he comes close.

The "whip" ... or "snap" is just an attempt to describe the action at the hands that happen on many high level 2hbhs. Watch Djokovic or Agassi slow motion 2hbh. Note the butt cap going forward toward target (actually past the line of the target). Also note earlier at the back of the slot the racquet head dropped below the hands. In order to hit big pace with a 2hbh, the arms and hands have to be relaxed so the hands act as a hinge in the stroke. Try to to hit a stiff arm/hand 2hbh ... weak tea, not much on it. But let the racquet head drop below the hands, and lead with the butt cap forward ... and then let those hands work together as a relaxed hinge with the racquet head rapidly rotating around the butt cap ... EASY pace. (Assuming you had a good shoulder turn.

Later the whip/release the better as far as easy pace. I will come back and edit this and add a cool Djokovic pic on "the late whip thing".

Oh yeah, I mean the butt cap has to go forward a bit and yes I do drop the racquet head, I don't know it just drops since your grip is pretty relaxed. The right arm should be really relaxed, left sort of guiding the swing.

I mean yeah I do the whip thing but it does take a lot of practice to really time it well. I also like to swing more low to high I'm finding, probably going to try someday less of low to high and see how that goes too.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Oh yeah, I mean the butt cap has to go forward a bit and yes I do drop the racquet head, I don't know it just drops since your grip is pretty relaxed. The right arm should be really relaxed, left sort of guiding the swing.

I mean yeah I do the whip thing but it does take a lot of practice to really time it well. I also like to swing more low to high I'm finding, probably going to try someday less of low to high and see how that goes too.

I'm not talking about trying to actively "whip" with the hands. For me, it just the relaxed hands taking their natural hinge as my left arm takes over. At backswing ... the right arm is straight/flexed and the left arm is bent. By contact that reverses ... right arm bent, left arm straight. My left arm/hand is actively hitting ... right hand just relaxed hanging on. I think I have heard some refer to there right (lower) hand offering active resistance, but that's not how it works with mine.

My method for learning the 2hbh was learn the basic low to high first as the staple. I figured it would be easier to learn to flatten out shots later, rather than the other way around. That actually worked out as hoped. I think adding variety earlier than I did could shorten the total learning curve. The one exception to me would be falling in love with the flat shot and not completing the learning curve on the ts shot. IMO you want that ts 2hbh in the toolbox ... for angles if nothing else.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
There is an ATP bh? CR@P!!!

Hahaha!

2hbhs are impossible to describe with words. :D

That, however doesn't stop me. I never feel like I'm pulling with the right hand. I feel like I start forward with a relaxed arm triangle working together. It's like both arms together are an elephant's trunk, relaxed ... and it get sent on it's way from your shoulder turn into the shot. At some point (depending on player's 2hbh), the rotation of the racquet forward around the butt cap. This is the point of the active left arm/hand in the stroke. Pros like Agassi and Djokovic can delay that rotation to the last. Many rec players won't even have the rotation (butt cap forward), and then it's just a old style FH type of swing. I suspect on those, the left arm/hand fire right when shoulders start uncoiling.

Just my 2 cents, which can't be proven wrong since it can't be done with words. :D

The next time you play, try focusing on keeping your right hand passive and hitting a left handed forehand and see how that works for you.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
One of the issues here is there are at least three different combinations in the way the arms are used. Macci's is bent front arm then straight back arm. Agassi and Nadal are straight straight. Most women are bent bent, but a few excellent men for example Coric are bent bent also. Bent bent is the most left arm driven--Serena hits it with not even a continental bottom hand grip. straight straight the most front arm. Bent straight starts with a big front arm pull and goes to the back arm push.
There is no better or worse--usually people are naturally one of the three.
Film yourself, determine that and then you work on the balance of the arm use.
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
I liked most of that up until "don't actively use the left arm". Maybe you just mean at the start of the forward swing... because somewhere in that forward swing before contact the left arm/hand "actively gets after it".

That's why I said "the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through". What I'm trying to get over is for people not not force the use of the left hand and not involve it too early. It is hard in words.

First, dunno why everyone's all about this "whip".

Racquet head speed, just like the 'ATP' forehand. Just about every top pro's 2hbh has it now.

But why wouldn't the left arm be used? It's going to be a main ingredient in the swing along with the body uncoiling.

Why? Why not the right arm? 1hbhs can be hit with coil. The left arm is used it just gets involved naturally near contact as the 'whip'/stretch/extend comes through otherwise this process is inhibited.

Also why would you keep the racquet tip pointing in front? It has to be turned when you swing.

Not with the 'ATP' style forehand so why not the backhand to? [this is an open question really, the only pro that kind of does it is zverev]
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
That's why I said "the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through". What I'm trying to get over is for people not not force the use of the left hand and not involve it too early. It is hard in words.



Racquet head speed, just like the 'ATP' forehand. Just about every top pro's 2hbh has it now.



Why? Why not the right arm? 1hbhs can be hit with coil. The left arm is used it just gets involved naturally near contact as the 'whip'/stretch/extend comes through otherwise this process is inhibited.



Not with the 'ATP' style forehand so why not the backhand to? [this is an open question really, the only pro that kind of does it is zverev]

Well cause the 2H I think is more of a lefty FH with right arm there relaxed. No idea on atp style thing. The right arm doesn't really do much compared to left arm.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That's why I said "the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through". What I'm trying to get over is for people not not force the use of the left hand and not involve it too early. It is hard in words.



Racquet head speed, just like the 'ATP' forehand. Just about every top pro's 2hbh has it now.



Why? Why not the right arm? 1hbhs can be hit with coil. The left arm is used it just gets involved naturally near contact as the 'whip'/stretch/extend comes through otherwise this process is inhibited.



Not with the 'ATP' style forehand so why not the backhand to? [this is an open question really, the only pro that kind of does it is zverev]

"That's why I said "the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through". What I'm trying to get over is for people not not force the use of the left hand and not involve it too early. It is hard in words."

Got it. I think generally ... it's easy to pick out on video when a players left arm/hand fires in a 2hbh. It's when the racquet head starts to rotate around the handle. For a player without the "butt cap forward lag", the left arm will fire immediately on the forward swing. @Traffic 's recent video shows this type of 2hbh. Then we could look at mine, where I have "some" butt cap forward ... but not past the line like Djokovice and not as delayed on the rotation/whip. My left arm fires somewhere between past the back leg and the belly button. Then you can watch Djokovic ... and his left arm is firing somewhere around front leg.

Based on my 2hbh painful learning curve, I would differ on your description that the left arm "gets involved naturally". I spent a couple of painful early weeks trying to hit the Agassi straight/straight 2hbh with minimum left arm. I had hit a 1hbh for 4 decades, and based on Yandell's article, it seemed logical the easiest migration from and existing 1hbh would be straight/straight. About the 2nd week ... maybe by accident, I started thinking in terms of actively hitting with the left arm/hand. BINGO ... never looked back. If I was teaching a beginner ... one of the first things I would say is 1) everything relaxed 2) good backswing prep 3) get after it with the left arm/hand. I hear you, and think you are promoting the butt cap forward lag 2hbh where the left arm doesn't fire until time to whip/rotate. I agree... I just didn't find my left arm cooperated in the hitting part "naturally".
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Well cause the 2H I think is more of a lefty FH with right arm there relaxed. No idea on atp style thing. The right arm doesn't really do much compared to left arm.

Agree with the left arm doing "more" in most 2hbhs. I do not think the 2hbh is a "left handed forehand", however (you didn't say that). It is a unique creature ... with two hands on the racquet and the weight of an extra arm. The right arm is actively participating in the arm triangle unit turn into the shot ... but then the left arm/hand takes over in that group participation. IMO.
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
"That's why I said "the left hand will get involved naturally just as the racquet comes through". What I'm trying to get over is for people not not force the use of the left hand and not involve it too early. It is hard in words."

Got it. I think generally ... it's easy to pick out on video when a players left arm/hand fires in a 2hbh. It's when the racquet head starts to rotate around the handle. For a player without the "butt cap forward lag", the left arm will fire immediately on the forward swing. @Traffic 's recent video shows this type of 2hbh. Then we could look at mine, where I have "some" butt cap forward ... but not past the line like Djokovice and not as delayed on the rotation/whip. My left arm fires somewhere between past the back leg and the belly button. Then you can watch Djokovic ... and his left arm is firing somewhere around front leg.

Based on my 2hbh painful learning curve, I would differ on your description that the left arm "gets involved naturally". I spent a couple of painful early weeks trying to hit the Agassi straight/straight 2hbh with minimum left arm. I had hit a 1hbh for 4 decades, and based on Yandell's article, it seemed logical the easiest migration from and existing 1hbh would be straight/straight. About the 2nd week ... maybe by accident, I started thinking in terms of actively hitting with the left arm/hand. BINGO ... never looked back. If I was teaching a beginner ... one of the first things I would say is 1) everything relaxed 2) good backswing prep 3) get after it with the left arm/hand. I hear you, and think you are promoting the butt cap forward lag 2hbh where the left arm doesn't fire until time to whip/rotate. I agree... I just didn't find my left arm cooperated in the hitting part "naturally".

Ah I see. I think we are after the same things but have had two different journeys to get there because we had opposite issues getting it to work.

I wish I could post a decent vid of my backhand but the flip would get lost in 30fps video.

Well cause the 2H I think is more of a lefty FH with right arm there relaxed. No idea on atp style thing. The right arm doesn't really do much compared to left arm.

I disagree. The right arm extension and angle is in a far better position to provide power than the cramped left arm.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I disagree. The right arm extension and angle is in a far better position to provide power than the cramped left arm.

It's not cramped though. Like I see a lot with Novak it's just a straightened extended left arm guiding/pushing or catching up with the shoulders uncoiling.

Like it's been said, both arms should be relaxed. But if there was one that should be straightened, I'd definitely want it to be the left, not the right.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Ah I see. I think we are after the same things but have had two different journeys to get there because we had opposite issues getting it to work.

I wish I could post a decent vid of my backhand but the flip would get lost in 30fps video.



I disagree. The right arm extension and angle is in a far better position to provide power than the cramped left arm.

Yep ... we all end up at a similar 2hbh destination. With a 40+ year 1hbh ... you have to get past "WTF ... get that left hand off the racquet". :D

IMO regarding power and 2hbh arm positions, the left/top arm position at contact is key. I have found what @iChen is saying ... straight left arm at contact is a power arm position.

This is what I found experimenting with the 2hbh ... from most power to least:

Straight/straight -> bent/straight -> bent/bent.

I think there is a bigger jump from bent/bent to bent/straight the bent/straight to straight/straight. That said, I was surprised when I came back and tried straight/straight again a following summer of the power boost with straight/straight. I had settled on bent/straight ... and still have ... but really good easy pop from straight/straight. This is all assuming equal quality lag/whip in the stroke. You do get max 2hbh reach with the straight/straight ... not that far from 1hbh reach.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Well if you also think about it...if you're late on hitting or short swing, an extended back arm should provide more power. If you're using your front or right arm, you won't be hitting the ball in front of your body like the BHs that are hitting the ball in front of where the front foot is. You'd also probably be flicking the wrist more.

Otherwise if you are using the front arm more, I'm guessing you'd find more success just 1H BH.
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
Here is a good vid that may help discussion


Key point is that his right arm stays straight until the racquet goes into the lag/snap part where the left arm then starts to get blended in you can kinda see from muscle contraction which arm is doing more work. The 'pull' macci talks about is clearly from the right arm imo.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Here is a good vid that may help discussion


Key point is that his right arm stays straight until the racquet goes into the lag/snap part where the left arm then starts to get blended in you can kinda see from muscle contraction which arm is doing more work. The 'pull' macci talks about is clearly from the right arm imo.

More work? The left. I don't get the point of a pull on an arm unless it's just the hands?

If you think about Novak sliding to his left, which will create more power? A right arm pulling or a left arm pushing?
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
More work? The left. I don't get the point of a pull on an arm unless it's just the hands?

If you think about Novak sliding to his left, which will create more power? A right arm pulling or a left arm pushing?

Maybe I wasn't clear: more work at an instant in time in the stroke, the blend of right/left it changes throughout as you can see by the muscles in his arms.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Maybe I wasn't clear: more work at an instant in time in the stroke, the blend of right/left it changes throughout as you can see by the muscles in his arms.

I think it's always the left. The left is pushing through with the shoulder uncoiling. The left hand too is guiding and changing the racquet angle at contact. And you can see sort of the right arm bending first while left extended to get max plow through.
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
I think it's always the left. The left is pushing through with the shoulder uncoiling. The left hand too is guiding and changing the racquet angle at contact. And you can see sort of the right arm bending first while left extended to get max plow through.

I don't agree. It is obvious from these which are at the point where the left hand is about to start taking over just before impact. His right arm muscles are clearly heavily contracted.

Novak-Djokovic-1083480.jpg

hi-res-462271965-novak-djokovic-of-serbia-plays-.jpg
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I don't agree. It is obvious from these which are at the point where the left hand is about to start taking over just before impact. His right arm muscles are clearly heavily contracted.

Novak-Djokovic-1083480.jpg

hi-res-462271965-novak-djokovic-of-serbia-plays-.jpg

Well yeah I think for the first 20% maybe it's the right arm but really I think of it as the shoulder leading the way while your left arm is ramping up power and your right hand pulling that butt cap.

I mean I remember I think Agassi really being the one guy who talks about the right arm being the power since he described it as one hand BH with 2 hands for his.

I mean everyone has their own preferences and what works for them :D
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
So it sounds like we all agree at some point (by contact, starting at the whip) the left arm/hand becomes dominant.

So the discussion really is from the start of the shoulder turn forward (uncoiling) to the end of the butt cap forward.

I've seen (been a part of) the discussion with "right side/arm pull" or "left arm push". Allowing for the fact we all probably do have different ways to hit a 2hbh, let me say what I think is happening with Djoker above ... and what I feel is happening with my 2hbh.

First, I think the right arm carries almost all the weight of the racquet during the stroke. The left arm/hand gets off easy ... until it's time to fire and actively hit. Try a shadow swing and note any weight bearing by the left arm. Really not much.

That alone would account for right arm muscle tension to some degree.

So what is happening, IMO ... his that initial part of the stroke from back of slot to end of butt cap forward is a shoulder turn. You might feel, or define that as a "right pull", but to me it's just the shoulder starting to uncoil and the arms having to follow because the upper arms are attached. So the shoulder turn starts, the right arm maintains the weight and the arm alignment with the turning shoulder. If you are hitting the butt cap forward 2hbh like the pic above, then the left arm is doing very little ... certainly not pushing. The right hand is moving on plane with the front side of the shoulder ... so call it right hand pulling shoulder or right shoulder turning shoulder turn or whatever, not sure it matters that much. The shoulders/arms/hands are married to each other ... kind of have to move together regardless.

So I guess I really don't see the right muscle thing as an indicator of Macci pulling. I see it as an indicator that the right arm has to carry the load and control the swing at the start.

Note: this entire discussion changes if one isn't hitting the butt cap lag 2hbh. For example, if @iChen hits a 2hbh without the butt cap lag (just swings around his body from the backswing), then he for sure is going to get left arm dominance right at the start. Not an apples to apples discussion.

For example, check out @Traffic 2hbh at 02:32ish in the video. He hits a 2hbh without the butt cap forward lag. The arm triangle immediately turns with the shoulders. Hard to say for sure ... might be a 50/50 arm participation at the start of the forward swing... or probably most left arm push.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/i-now-hate-looking-into-a-mirror.596787/
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I mean with all this discussion, it's just choose one you like :D and that feels right and comfy and works for you :D

I mean Agassi had one of the best BHs of all time and he described it as one hand in a 2H BH. He's really pulling or I guess swinging with the right arm dominant and I'm not going to say that's bad at all about an all time great.

I mean it's probably easier to start with left arm just because it's about looseness and shoulders uncoiling to start learning with so you are relaxed and not tense. But whatever works for you is best :D
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Well yeah I think for the first 20% maybe it's the right arm but really I think of it as the shoulder leading the way while your left arm is ramping up power and your right hand pulling that butt cap.

I mean I remember I think Agassi really being the one guy who talks about the right arm being the power since he described it as one hand BH with 2 hands for his.

I mean everyone has their own preferences and what works for them :D

I think Agassi was describing what he felt right up until the end of the lag (pic below). I don't think pros always can describe their strokes, and I think he is just describing the dominant right shoulder turn in the shot. But regardless, watch any Agassi 2hbh video, and by contact he is hitting the hockey out of the ball with his left arm/hand. The only 2hbh that gives me pause and confusion is Borg's. That release of the leading arm thing is hard to guess what arm is in control of what. It's more like a sling of both arms together.

04KyyF9m.gif
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
Annoyingly macci's 2hbh vids all seem to be gone from youtube.

So what is happening, IMO ... his that initial part of the stroke from back of slot to end of butt cap forward is a shoulder turn. You might feel, or define that as a "right pull", but to me it's just the shoulder starting to uncoil and the arms having to follow because the upper arms are attached. So the shoulder turn starts, the right arm maintains the weight and the arm alignment with the turning shoulder. If you are hitting the butt cap forward 2hbh like the pic above, then the left arm is doing very little ... certainly not pushing. The right hand is moving on plane with the front side of the shoulder ... so call it right hand pulling shoulder or right shoulder turning shoulder turn or whatever, not sure it matters that much. The shoulders/arms/hands are married to each other ... kind of have to move together regardless.

This good description matches my stroke and how it feels.

So I guess I really don't see the right muscle thing as an indicator of Macci pulling. I see it as an indicator that the right arm has to carry the load and control the swing at the start.

Yes by 'pull' I meant 'tension along' due to rotation of the shoulders. Bad use of word maybe I just assumed people would assume it came from the shoulder.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I mean with all this discussion, it's just choose one you like :D and that feels right and comfy and works for you :D

I mean Agassi had one of the best BHs of all time and he described it as one hand in a 2H BH. He's really pulling or I guess swinging with the right arm dominant and I'm not going to say that's bad at all about an all time great.

I mean it's probably easier to start with left arm just because it's about looseness and shoulders uncoiling to start learning with so you are relaxed and not tense. But whatever works for you is best :D

Sorry ... you probably already said ... I have forgot the plot. Do you lead with the butt cap (have a lag)?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Annoyingly macci's 2hbh vids all seem to be gone from youtube.



This good description matches my stroke and how it feels.



Yes by 'pull' I meant 'tension along' due to rotation of the shoulders. Bad use of word maybe I just assumed people would assume it came from the shoulder.

I think we ended in agreement. Now what do we do ... watch US Open? :D
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Sorry ... you probably already said ... I have forgot the plot. Do you lead with the butt cap (have a lag)?

When uncoiling slightly but not really. I don't do the wrist lag as much or I don't think I do. But then again I have shoulders past perpendicular. It lags a little maybe but it's such a small thing in this whole swing...
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I think we ended in agreement. Now what do we do ... watch US Open? :D

Well I mean we should all agree that the main thing in the BH is

1. Knees. Knees are so important and that's one thing I think really separates a god BH from a bad one.

2. Shoulders perpendicular if not past it :D
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Well I mean we should all agree that the main thing in the BH is

1. Knees. Knees are so important and that's one thing I think really separates a god BH from a bad one.

2. Shoulders perpendicular if not past it :D

I'll be back. :cool:
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
One of the issues here is there are at least three different combinations in the way the arms are used. Macci's is bent front arm then straight back arm. Agassi and Nadal are straight straight. Most women are bent bent, but a few excellent men for example Coric are bent bent also. Bent bent is the most left arm driven--Serena hits it with not even a continental bottom hand grip. straight straight the most front arm. Bent straight starts with a big front arm pull and goes to the back arm push.
There is no better or worse--usually people are naturally one of the three.
Film yourself, determine that and then you work on the balance of the arm use.
John, I'm totally with with you in everything you wrote above except the last half of the last sentence in bold. How exactly does the back arm push if it's already straight? I would think that the only push a player can create with the straight left arm is a small but powerful push from the shoulder. Is that what you're referring to?

Also, would you agree that in the straight/bent 2hbh the right arm pull is critical? For top players with that 2hbh configuration the lower right arm is generally in line with the racquet and you can see the bicep of the right arm activating through contact. That tells me that the right arm is pulling through contact.

Interested in your thoughts.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I'll be back. :cool:

I hit a weak BH before I really realized I didn't use my knees and push off. Then it's really become my only since I'm new, weapon and not my FH.

Yeah I mean people think about swing so much they forget about the knees sometimes. It's so important that you push off back foot, left leg if righty. That weight transfer and shoulders uncoiling are just the keys.

I think however one wants to swing, whether pushing with left arm or pulling with right like the great Agassi...Happy Hitting :D
 
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iChen

Semi-Pro
Curious...who are some good Americans with good backhands? We know about the Djokovic and the Murray and the old Agassi, who is currently an American with a good backhand?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Perhaps we are off base describing the 2hbh in terms of "arm" pushing and pulling. Isn't really shoulder hitting?

On FHs ... ttw has spoken ... NO ARMING. :D On a good FH ... the hand travels in plane with shoulder. We pride ourselves on the k-chain ... and hitting with the big muscles. I have changed my thinking on FHs to "I hit with the shoulder". This is a good teaching aid ... because when I don't turn my shoulders enough ... my stroke is weak (as it deserves).

On the 2hbh, we have something similar, just with two arms at the same time. The right hand traveling in plane with the right shoulder, and the left hand with the left shoulder.

If we apply the ttw FH "no arming" standard to the 2hbh ... we need to explain it in terms of k-chain and big muscles.

Try this:
At the start of the slot, we doing our k-chain thing and handing off to the right shoulder like a 1hbh. We don't refer to a 1hbh as a right arm pull ... and should cease and desist doing so with the 2hbh. The left arm at this point is just a weak dangler ... hardly part of the story.

Then at the end of the butt cap forward, the left arm joins the action. We have now entered the "hitting with the left shoulder" phase of the plot. Just as we are banned from "arming" FHs ... we also can't with a straight face describe a 2hbh as a "arming LH FH".

Note: the right arm does not revert to a right arm dangler like that weak lefty at the start of the slot. It is still a weight bearing hinge for the arm triangle ... even at max rhs contact.

Now ... where's my opioids?

Edit: in plane on FHs means in line with shoulder line. On 2hbh ... arms are bent at shoulder and the hand stays in plane with the outer edge of the shoulder throughout the shoulder turn forward.
 
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