Hewitt vs Federer Highlights | ATP Finals 2002 Semi-Final | TennisTV Highlights

metsman

G.O.A.T.
How would you compared Hewitt of the USO 05 SF to Djokovic of the USO 15 F level wise?
I'll humor you, we know 12-14 USO Joe is probably not even at peak Murray(=peak Hewitt) levels, 11 is better, and 15 is somewhere in between. 15 Joe probably bit tougher matchup against old Fed due to hitting a deeper ball, however, Hewitt probably is harder to rush and rattle with forward play. Any matchup advantage Djokovic really had was rendered moot by his big ups and downs in that match (and given Djokovic's US Open history, huge fluctuations within a match should really be expected). Same with his serve advantage. Put it this way, pretty easy to see peak Hewitt beating old Fed in tight-ish 4 setter, and 15 Joe going down to 05 Fed by similar scoreline.

Obviously a part of it is Djokovic establishing mental advantage over Federer due to prior meetings which is hard to translate in hypotheticals. But in general I think Federer would be vulnerable to any high level mover and baseliner.
 
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mike danny

Bionic Poster
I know you consider Fed in 2005 better :D That is why some people might give Hewitt a decent shot of beating Djokovic or taking him 5.
I don't know whether he was better, I just know that he wasn't worse.

Some people always point out to the Agassi final and say Federer was terrible, but not a peep about 2015 Djokovic nearly going 5 vs old man Lopez.
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
I don't know whether he was better, I just know that he wasn't worse.

Some people always point out to the Agassi final and say Federer was terrible, but not a peep about 2015 Djokovic nearly going 5 vs old man Lopez.
Maybe not you just following the general opinion here USO 2005 Fed > USO 2011 Djokovic (slightly) and USO 2011 Djokovic > USO 2015 Djokovic (clearly) that most people do but maybe not you.

So if you think these things then you can say Hewitt was equal to that Djokovic or at least close.
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
I'll humor you, we know 12-14 USO Joe is probably not even at peak Murray(=peak Hewitt) levels, 11 is better, and 15 is somewhere in between. 15 Joe probably bit tougher matchup against old Fed due to hitting a deeper ball, however, Hewitt probably is harder to rush and rattle with forward play. Any matchup advantage Djokovic really had was rendered moot by his big ups and downs in that match (and given Djokovic's US Open history, huge fluctuations within a match should really be expected). Same with his serve advantage. Put it this way, pretty easy to see peak Hewitt beating old Fed in tight-ish 4 setter, and 15 Joe going down to 05 Fed by similar scoreline.

Obviously a part of it is Djokovic establishing mental advantage over Federer due to prior meetings which is hard to translate in hypotheticals. But in general I think Federer would be vulnerable to any high level mover and baseliner.
So more or less the same level .
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
I don't know whether he was better, I just know that he wasn't worse.

Some people always point out to the Agassi final and say Federer was terrible, but not a peep about 2015 Djokovic nearly going 5 vs old man Lopez.
Fed nearly went 5 vs Kiefer also.

The bigger difference is that Agassi was completely hopeless for 2.5 sets in 2005 and played the absolute best he could play to take his set (if he was anywhere near as sloppy as Fed was, even in 2nd set of 15 USO, he would have found it very hard to even win that, but he was basically perfect). But you knew that if Federer stopped coughing up crap on his BH there was almost nothing Agassi could do. At no point in 2015 was Fed playing his cleanest stuff and Djokovic's wild inconsistencies were only exceeded by Federer's even wilder ones and tentativeness on big points. 2005 USO final is more similar in dynamics to 2016 AO just with the set orderings changed a bit, but there it felt like Federer just had no shot in the neutral rallies, Djokovic was just too good. Very different from 2015 USO where Djokovic never brought that level and decisive edge was just flatness from Federer (first set), tentativeness (third set), or just sloppiness (4th set). Even 2015 Wimby seemed much more decisive as Djokovic choked Fed in the first set TB, 3rd set break was a gift, but from there on out was very convincing.
 
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metsman

G.O.A.T.
So more or less the same level .
Really hard to say given complete lack of sample of those two players against any other quality opponent besides Federer (and of course the level and style of Federer was so wildly different).
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Fed nearly went 5 vs Kiefer also.

The bigger difference is that Agassi was completely hopeless for 2.5 sets in 2005 and played the absolute best he could play to take his set (if he was anywhere near as sloppy as Fed was, even in 2nd set of 15 USO, he would have found it very hard to even win that, but he was basically perfect). But you knew that if Federer stopped coughing up crap on his BH there was almost nothing Agassi could do. At no point in 2015 was Fed playing his cleanest stuff and Djokovic's wild inconsistencies were only exceeded by Federer's even wilder ones and tentativeness on big points. 2005 USO final is more similar in dynamics to 2016 AO just with the set orderings changed a bit, but there it felt like Federer just had no shot in the neutral rallies, Djokovic was just too good. Very different from 2015 USO where Djokovic never brought that level and decisive edge was just flatness from Federer (first set), tentativeness (third set), or just sloppiness (4th set). Even 2015 Wimby seemed much more decisive as Djokovic choked Fed in the first set TB, 3rd set break was a gift, but from there on out was very convincing.
Didn't almost go 5 vs Kiefer. It ended 6-4 in the 5th with Fed getting an earlier break as opposed to 7-6 in the 4th like with Djokovic-Lopez.
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
Really hard to say given complete lack of sample of those two players against any other quality opponent besides Federer (and of course the level and style of Federer was so wildly different).
Thought you would be tempted to give Hewitt at least a 5th set in a H2Hconsidering you think a peak Fed > peak Djoko at the USO but fair dues for the answer :cool:
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Thought you would be tempted to give Hewitt at least a 5th set in a H2Hconsidering you think a peak Fed > peak Djoko at the USO but fair dues for the answer :cool:
Hewitt going 5 or winning is definitely possible, but hard to make any definite judgements since only comparison point is a hell and heaven Federer.
 

Kralingen

Legend
How would you compared Hewitt of the USO 05 SF to Djokovic of the USO 15 F level wise?
Hewitt facing the worst crowd in tennis history or not? That was ridiculous, honestly.

Hewitt was definitely impressive especially from the baseline. My only nitpick would be end of 2nd set when he had all those SPs but eventually just succumbed to Fed’s Fearhand as nearly everyone in tennis history would have. He did a nice job of attacking what was a slightly shaky BH, moved well, had a strong mentality for the most part.

I think ‘15 Fed’s bag of tricks would run out before Hewitt did so could definitely see Hewitt beating ‘15erer. But that crowd was insane, it isn’t talked about enough in terms of influencing djokovic’s performance.

as for a direct comparison - Djokovic would be a lot more comfortable in Hewitt’s service games than ‘15 Fed’s. So Novak wins in 4/5. But from the baseline I’ll call it even.

But if both lose to 04-06 Federer anyways what’s the point in comparing them?:(:(:(
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Didn't almost go 5 vs Kiefer. It ended 6-4 in the 5th with Fed getting an earlier break as opposed to 7-6 in the 4th like with Djokovic-Lopez.
Yeah but Kiefer would have broken in third had Fed not GOATed a passing shot.

Kiefer also served for the 4th or was a break up I believe at wimbledon. Point being to not take the earlier matches seriously (although Lopez match was a QF) as top guys don't get up the same for every match. Joe obviously has more than his share and then some of late round weirdness in matches he should have gotten up for at USO to make the point regardless.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Yeah but Kiefer would have broken in third had Fed not GOATed a passing shot.

Kiefer also served for the 4th or was a break up I believe at wimbledon. Point being to not take the earlier matches seriously (although Lopez match was a QF) as top guys don't get up the same for every match. Joe obviously has more than his share and then some of late round weirdness in matches he should have gotten up for at USO to make the point regardless.
Well, that's why I brought up the match vs Lopez. It was a QF which is pretty much a later stage.
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
Hewitt facing the worst crowd in tennis history or not? That was ridiculous, honestly.

Hewitt was definitely impressive especially from the baseline. My only nitpick would be end of 2nd set when he had all those SPs but eventually just succumbed to Fed’s Fearhand as nearly everyone in tennis history would have. He did a nice job of attacking what was a slightly shaky BH, moved well, had a strong mentality for the most part.

I think ‘15 Fed’s bag of tricks would run out before Hewitt did so could definitely see Hewitt beating ‘15erer. But that crowd was insane, it isn’t talked about enough in terms of influencing djokovic’s performance.

as for a direct comparison - Djokovic would be a lot more comfortable in Hewitt’s service games than ‘15 Fed’s. So Novak wins in 4/5. But from the baseline I’ll call it even.

But if both lose to 04-06 Federer anyways what’s the point in comparing them?:(:(:(
Djokovic losing seems the majority view but some people think Djokovic wins as well.
 

Kralingen

Legend
Djokovic losing seems the majority view but some people think Djokovic wins as well.
With the whole “if old Fed can ___, then peak Fed would ___” thesis behind him Fed will ride the wave to a comfortable hypothetical victory 10/10 times.

However if Djokovic had played say Cilic in the final and put up his SF performance he might have a shot. Unfortunately he is doomed to lose this hypothetical until the end of time. Dropping more than 8 total games to any player over the age of 30 basically means you suck and their younger version would routine you, except if we’re talking about Agassi vs peak Federer of course.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
as for a direct comparison - Djokovic would be a lot more comfortable in Hewitt’s service games than ‘15 Fed’s. So Novak wins in 4/5. But from the baseline I’ll call it even.
a little more comfortable, but not lot more.
Also hewitt would be even more comfortable in djokovic's service games than he was against 05 fed, quite a bit more in fact.
15 fed had 10 return games with BPs (total of 23 BPs), of which he converted 4. hewitt would convert atleast a couple more.
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
With the whole “if old Fed can ___, then peak Fed would ___” thesis behind him Fed will ride the wave to a comfortable hypothetical victory 10/10 times.

However if Djokovic had played say Cilic in the final and put up his SF performance he might have a shot. Unfortunately he is doomed to lose this hypothetical until the end of time. Dropping more than 8 total games to any player over the age of 30 basically means you suck and their younger version would routine you, except if we’re talking about Agassi vs peak Federer of course.
That iswhy your guy wins the most hypotheticals :confused:
 
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RS

G.O.A.T.
Hewitt going 5 or winning is definitely possible, but hard to make any definite judgements since only comparison point is a hell and heaven Federer.
Sometimes one match vs a considered pesk ATG and post-prime ATG is considered all the difference though :D
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly :D
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly :D
Yeah, would need 2013 Djokovic for the possibility of 2005 Hewitt going 5 existing.

2005 Hewitt wins vs 2014 Djokovic though :D
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly :D
In time travel matches you could make them play in USO 2005 speeds as well.
 

Kralingen

Legend
I thought Hewitt 2005 AO final > 2005 USO SF pretty clearly. Both were inspired performances though. Do you guys agree with that?
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly :D
Fed hit a much heavier ball than Djokovic, much easier for Hewitt to deal with...

Yeah, would need 2013 Djokovic for the possibility of 2005 Hewitt going 5 existing.

2005 Hewitt wins vs 2014 Djokovic though :D
I edited my post.

I could see 2005 Hewitt pushing 2013 Djokovic to 5, just don't know whether he'd win :D
lol Hewitt would have chances to win against 2013'ovic not just go five, he could definitely go five with 2015'ovic too.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I thought Hewitt 2005 AO final > 2005 USO SF pretty clearly. Both were inspired performances though. Do you guys agree with that?
Possibly, he was very good there. I think tactically he was better at the USO, the way he attacked the net as a change up was great but maybe pure ballstriking was slightly more solid at the AO particularly the first set of each?
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Hewitt has never played a baseliner like Djokovic so it becomes pointless if we think about it anyway :D
News flash, he's played him a bunch of times...metal toe Hewitt even took at a set at the slowest AO of all time in 2012.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Fed hit a much heavier ball than Djokovic, much easier for Hewitt to deal with...




lol Hewitt would have chances to win against 2013'ovic not just go five, he could definitely go five with 2015'ovic too.
Yeah, 2005 USO Hewitt played well vs Fed, would probably have a chance to beat 2013 USO Djokovic.
 

Kralingen

Legend
Possibly, he was very good there. I think tactically he was better at the USO, the way he attacked the net as a change up was great but maybe pure ballstriking was slightly more solid at the AO particularly the first set of each?
I might just be overrating that because of the breadstick he delivered to GOATing Marat in the first set. He was incredibly on point there. Like 1 UE I believe. A shame it only counted as one set.

I do think he got tight in the later stages of the AO final due to the home pressure of it. Missed a lot of first serves iirc, while Marat was dinging them in at like a 70% rate. That more than anything else made the difference in the match, Safin had more winners but a lot of them were serve+1 putaways. He hung with both peak Safin and Federer from the baseline admirably.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He did face Federer though and some people would put peak Federer with a peak Djokovic as a baseliner.
Fed was never as good of a baseliner as Djokovic. He just had more options, baselining being one of them, but was always elite there anyway.
 
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RS

G.O.A.T.
Fed was never as good of a baseliner like Djokovic. He just had more options, baselining being one of them, but was always elite there anyway.
On fast surfaces some people think Federer was just as good from the ground as Djokovic in his peak but just in a different way. I saw this debate in a older thread somewhere.
 

Kralingen

Legend
Safin of the SF would have straight setted Hewitt :D
lol I do think he was a bit exhausted and lethargic in that first set tbf, no way Safin should be getting breadsticked. But Hewitt was also beasting.

Also as good as Safin was in that SF he arguably should have gone down in 4 with a tiny bit of Fed clutching. I thank the tennis gods for allowing him to save that MP and win the 4th set. Would have been a cruel outcome otherwise

Have you watched Hewitt-Nadal AO '05 btw?
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
lol I do think he was a bit exhausted and lethargic in that first set tbf, no way Safin should be getting breadsticked. But Hewitt was also beasting.

Also as good as Safin was in that SF he arguably should have gone down in 4 with a tiny bit of Fed clutching. I thank the tennis gods for allowing him to save that MP and win the 4th set. Would have been a cruel outcome otherwise

Have you watched Hewitt-Nadal AO '05 btw?
If Fed won in 4 vs Safin people might have considered that his best AO. I think any of them winning in 5 was the fairest outcome.

Seen Hewitt vs Nadal AO 05 :(
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
He did face Federer though and some people would put peak Federer with a peak Djokovic as a baseliner.
I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic :D
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic :D
He was still incredibly elite from the baseline in his younger years. Great defense.

And in the AO 2009 F he was incredibly good from the baseline which is the only reason he made the match close because he had a terrible serving day :D
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic :D
Who do you think had better ground game a peak Federer or a peak Murray?
 

RS

G.O.A.T.
I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic :D
Some of those people count variety and attacking play as part of ground game. Were as most count it as longer rallies and more defensive type play and running.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Some of those people count variety and attacking play as part of ground game. Were as most count it as longer rallies and more defensive type play and running.
To me baselining just means exchanging rallies with little to no variety, kinda like how everyone does today.
 

Mustard

Talk Tennis Guru
Aye, Hewitt had match points for a 7-5, 6-4 victory. Instead, he had to struggle mightily to win 7-5, 5-7, 7-5. Federer finished 2002 pretty strongly, and was starting to seriously rise.
 
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