High school coach does not care for results

Nowhere in this discussion do I see anything about how the daughter feels. Does she think it's a waste of her time? Or is she, perhaps, making great friends and enjoying the team aspect? Maybe she's never played on a team before?

UTR 8 at age 13 is pretty darn good. However, life is unpredictable and any number of things could happen that could derail tennis-specific plans. I'd also want to take into account her whole development as a person, not just tennis.
 
First of all a team with a utr 8, 7 and big dropoffs after that is not going to win a state championship.
If you want her to be on a team, why don't you look into zonals?
 
Thanks again for all your responses. I think HS varsity should be mutually beneficial both to the kid and the team. I agree HS varsity team provides an opportunity for kids to develop skills beyond tennis as well. However there are plenty of other higher impact opportunities to develop non-tennis skills. Downplaying a player doesn’t help kids or the team. The first match they lost (my daughter won but both of the 1st two singles positions lost).

Last year there was a player with a 9+ UTR on the team however she is not coming to the team this year. Same coach last year and this year (the coach’s 2nd year). Not sure why that player decided not to do HS varsity any more.

In my state only the first 2 positions go to sectionals and state. My daughter being 3rd position won’t even be provided that opportunity, considering she is the best (again i am not boasting, just stating a fact). I talked to my daughter, She said she’ll do her best to help the team as well as developing herself. But after a while if things don’t change, she’ll quit just like the other girl.
 
jered said:
I would try having a friendly conversation with the coach with the approach that you just want to understand how he's deciding the lineup and you want opportunities for your daughter to be challenged. If that gets you nowhere or he's rude/dismissive then you're screwed in my experience. Since this isn't Varsity (I assume), winning may not be the priority and you may have to be prepared to accept that his goals differ from yours. Many non-varsity HS coaches have questionable capability or are teachers who are just filling in the coaching spot.
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If it’s #1,2 and 3 it has to be varsity?
 
Do they have challenge matches? When I coached HS tennis I created a team ladder with a round robin early in the season. That’s the only fair way to do it. If you daughter can beat the other 2 players, then she should play# 1. UTR ratings are great but the # 1 player has to prove she’s the better player. I found the team ladder to be essential because eventually a parent will confront the coach about their child not playing varsity or #1,2 etc etc. The coach has to be able to defend his decision. If your coach has a team ladder and your daughter has beat the other 2 players then you have a good argument.
 
GoTennis said:
My daughter being 3rd position won’t even be provided that opportunity, considering she is the best (again i am not boasting, just stating a fact). I talked to my daughter, She said she’ll do her best to help the team as well as developing herself. But after a while if things don’t change, she’ll quit just like the other girl.
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If she really likes the sport, rather than quit the team stay I suggest she stay and work on solidifying her leadership skills. Use her team as fodder to mature her technical ability. Meanwhile, get her to as many tournaments during the off-season as possible. If she is piling up sanctioned tournament wins, how could her coach not play her at #1 or #2 in the next season. Same question as @TennisDawg, doesn't the coach allow players to challenge top players for match positions??? If not, that would be a shame. At least your daughter has three more opportunities to become a state finalist.
 
LocNetMonster said:
If she really likes the sport, rather than quit the team stay I suggest she stay and work on solidifying her leadership skills. Use her team as fodder to mature her technical ability. Meanwhile, get her to as many tournaments during the off-season as possible. If she is piling up sanctioned tournament wins, how could her coach not play her at #1 or #2 in the next season. Same question as @TennisDawg, doesn't the coach allow players to challenge top players for match positions??? If not, that would be a shame. At least your daughter has three more opportunities to become a state finalist.
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Right I think team ladders are a must. As a coach, the most annoying thing was confronting upset parents that wanted their kid on varsity or moved to #2 or 1 because they won junior tournaments or were getting lessons from a
good tennis instructor. They didn’t get the big picture if you bend the rules for one parent, you start a mess because other parents will do the same. You become nothing more than an organizer with no team stability. I’m not saying the OPs daughter hasn’t challenged and won her matches. I don’t know If her coach has a
Team ladder and challenge matches if so that would solve the problem. UTR rating are a good argument but only if a player wins her matches on the ladder.
 
Get over it. Im glad my son is not a junior player anymore. You parents are insane.

Even some top college programs do not have a set challenge system. It's the coaches call.

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TennisDawg said:
Do they have challenge matches? When I coached HS tennis I created a team ladder with a round robin early in the season. That’s the only fair way to do it. If you daughter can beat the other 2 players, then she should play# 1. UTR ratings are great but the # 1 player has to prove she’s the better player. I found the team ladder to be essential because eventually a parent will confront the coach about their child not playing varsity or #1,2 etc etc. The coach has to be able to defend his decision. If your coach has a team ladder and your daughter has beat the other 2 players then you have a good argument.
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You are a fair coach. Unfortunately this coach depends on her own perception which blatantly defies any objective data based approach.
 
This whole thread is strange.

If you don’t want to deal with the BS that comes with being on a team, don’t be on the team. It doesn’t matter one bit for your daughter’s tennis future.

Tennis is great because it’s a meritocracy. Avoiding the crazy political BS that comes with sports like basketball, soccer, baseball, etc. is the best part for a true competitor.

If you’re being forced into the commonplace team sports situation of BS politics either get out or accept it. Sadly it’s the way team sports work at the high school level and below.
 
rogerroger917 said:
Get over it. Im glad my son is not a junior player anymore. You parents are insane.

Even some top college programs do not have a set challenge system. It's the coaches call.

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I had a team ladder and used challenge matches because it made the job easier for me and it was fair. Willey nilly team order just gets a coach tangled up with angry parents without any way to defend your decision. College tennis is different compared to HS. One big difference is parents have very little influence and since you are a student athlete expectations are different.
 
TennisDawg said:
I had a team ladder and used challenge matches because it made the job easier for me and it was fair. Willey nilly team order just gets a coach tangled up with angry parents without any way to defend your decision. College tennis is different compared to HS. One big difference is parents have very little influence and since you are a student athlete expectations are different.
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I agree. My sons hs coach had a ladder. But a lot of really good teams messed with the lineup up against the rules. There is rules in place but the coaches easily get around it.

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GoTennis said:
What are zonals? How does she get in?
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Zonals are team competition between usta sections. Kids are selected by their sectional ranking. I’m not sure if utr 8 for girls 14 is good enough to make the team. I know for boys’ zonal 14 Utr 8 is for sure not good enough.
 
TennisDawg said:
If it’s #1,2 and 3 it has to be varsity?
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Well, if it’s varsity then that might explain what’s going on. A freshman coming into varsity is unlikely to get first position unless they are all-state material. Too many politics around the parents of junior/senior kids. Pretty common issue in HS sports. Highly dependent on how the coach runs things though.

Is OP’s daughter regularly crushing Varsity 1 18 year olds? Impressive if so given the developmental chasm between 14 and 18.
 
TennisDawg said:
Right I think team ladders are a must. As a coach, the most annoying thing was confronting upset parents that wanted their kid on varsity or moved to #2 or 1 because they won junior tournaments or were getting lessons from a
good tennis instructor. They didn’t get the big picture if you bend the rules for one parent, you start a mess because other parents will do the same. You become nothing more than an organizer with no team stability. I’m not saying the OPs daughter hasn’t challenged and won her matches. I don’t know If her coach has a
Team ladder and challenge matches if so that would solve the problem. UTR rating are a good argument but only if a player wins her matches on the ladder.
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If the coach isnt having challenge matches, they are already doing a bad job. Match play against teamates is stressful, allows us to see how they handle things. There is no reason to have 10 kids standing in line feeding xcourt drills, while you could have them play actual sets. Meanwhile you focus on a couple things you saw with a couple students that need to be corrected.

Do you know about al bundys high school career at Polk?

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Many seem to forget HS College coaches should have round robin and challenge matches to determine order. If not you are cheating straight up and should be fired. I teach juniors and am appalled at hs coaches and their lineups. Part of the deal is to teach the kids some integrity. When you cheat you are sending a message to the kids its all right to cheat. That is one of the most serious problems in this country cheating and lying, In the realm of what is important, after about 10 minutes coaches who actually wins is relevant to very few, how you played and were you honest or cheating will stay with you forever. Please be fair
 
I do highschool tennis and I know exactly what you are talking about. Sometimes coaches "stack" the lineups, but that's very rare. No coach is perfect in terms of ranking the players.

But she is a freshman, I understand where the coach is coming from. It's like any team sport, the rookie has to prove themselves. Almost no rookie makes an instant impact. The coaches have their "trust players," and those are the 1 and 2 singles in this situation.

But, there must be a way to challenge, no? If she's that good she will take the top position easily. Ask the coach about challenging.

(And there's also going to be tougher opponents for her lol, don't base this off of a couple matches.)
 
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chrisb said:
Many seem to forget HS College coaches should have round robin and challenge matches to determine order. If not you are cheating straight up and should be fired. I teach juniors and am appalled at hs coaches and their lineups. Part of the deal is to teach the kids some integrity. When you cheat you are sending a message to the kids its all right to cheat. That is one of the most serious problems in this country cheating and lying, In the realm of what is important, after about 10 minutes coaches who actually wins is relevant to very few, how you played and were you honest or cheating will stay with you forever. Please be fair
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How often do you think this happens? We've run into multiple teams where I question the integrity of the coach.
 
dominikk1985 said:
Do you mean with cheating intentionally tanking the top match so you can easily win match 2 and 3?
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Well, at least in my conference you get 3 singles and 4 doubles teams. So if you put your top players in the doubles you have a higher chance of winning overall, even at the expense of the singles.

But yes, technically they could also arrange the singles to put the worst player at the top and win 5-2 or 6-1.
 
Like many have said... many HS tennis coaches are simply teachers who know very little, or if they actually play are not very good and have pretty bad understanding of the game. It's kind of sad because tennis gets so little attention at many schools as a sport. When I played for my HS tennis team our coach was a teacher at the school and played pretty regularly... but he knew nothing about coaching tennis... at all. We were one of the better HS teams in our area and often had a player or two go to the state championship. It was all because we lived a nice area where parents paid for the kids to have lessons at some nice clubs and our coach benefited greatly from the talent that he just lucked out with. We basically told our coach to not bother us when we were playing because we literally knew a heck of a lot more than he did. He was relegated to cheerleader status, but always tried to act like he was a part of why we won so much... it was ridiculous. He also had his favorites and claimed to have a challenge system which he never used. Practices were not organized... we just played each other.

Bottom line a lot of coaches in HS have their favorites and have a lot of ego. There are some good coaches, but from what I've seen... not many for tennis.

1. You have to let your daughter fight her own battles on this. She's in HS and learning to grow up... she needs to learn to advocate for herself and find a way to get the coaches attention. Even if the coach is wrong or PIA, learning to deal with that and how to succeed will serve her well in the future.
2. At some point if she's not getting the competition she deserves and you feel it's really hurting her development... it might be time to chat up the coach and give them a warning. That might catch their attention. If it doesn't... quit and go to a private school that has a better tennis team/coach if that's an option or have her just play USTA tourney's etc. to get a ranking if she can, etc.

I at one point quit my HS team, because I had earned my spot on Varsity, but the coach kept having me play lower level competition. I spoke about it with them several times. It wasn't till I quit and told them why that they finally relented, and to their credit, allowed me to earn my varsity letter. I never whined about it, but I was direct with them and I didn't place any blame or point fingers. I simply stated facts they were aware of regarding my level, record, etc. and how it was being wasted and it was no longer worth my time to continue despite my high desire to stay on the team.

Hopefully, your daughter won't have to go to that extent, but encourage to approach the coach continuously in an adult fashion, respectfully with no whining, excuse making, etc. and see if she can push the coach to see reason. If she can do that I think the coach will have a hard time not giving her some better competition.
 
for those who are against the freshman playing up, I completely disagree. Holding her back can send the wrong message in that her hard work does not pay off. If seniority is the reason, then it's only fair for the coach to state his intend so there is a level of understanding for all. It's bad coaching to simply tell someone to "shut up and play ball", these kids who actually train deserves to be recognize. And if their level is clear above the rest, then it would be bias to run the team as is.

If I was the parent of the freshman, I would setup a meeting with the coach to see whether his decisions have any merit. Worst case is to leave the team and continue development on your own. High school tennis is not the only place you can engage in team tennis.
 
I think a lot of what folks are pointing to is that HS tennis is different from your individual tennis your daughter has been playing through USTA. My son was luke-warm about USTA tennis. But once he hit HS and was part of a team, things changed. Now, he's been UTR 8 since 14. But he stopped playing USTA and only plays for fun. He's gone to State twice and is going into senior year. HS tennis is all about the team.

There's a lot of life lessons to be learned and it's a great sport.

There are exceptions, like those that are heading to D1. The team can't support "practice" with that player. Usually they'll come and play for a season, win Singles State Champ and then never play HS tennis again. They often practice with their private club and only show up for the minimum number of practices to participate.

I wouldn't go by UTR. It has some merit. But a freshman playing against a crafty senior can lead to a melt-down. So what an individual did on their own and what they do playing against an 18y/o that never plays USTA is different.

Tell your daughter to have fun. Make new friends. Be sure to bring good drinks and snacks to the matches if parents are allowed to attend. HS tennis is about building relationships with other classmates. Build team/school spirit. They get a group of peers that share the same interest. This can be more important than being ranked top 100 in the state.
 
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Traffic said:
There are exceptions, like those that are heading to D1. The team can't support "practice" with that player. Usually they'll come and play for a season, win Singles State Champ and then never play HS tennis again. They often practice with their private club and only show up for the minimum number of practices to participate.
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Do you guys know how many kids from a graduating class get to play on D1 teams?
 
At that age a utr 8 or 7 is mix and match. A 15 year old 8 utr against a 18 year old 7 utr I would bet on the older girl.

Also depends if the 7 utr is a rising 7 utr or falling 7 utr. Or how far she can throw a football. And the spider drill time.

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rogerroger917 said:
At that age a utr 8 or 7 is mix and match. A 15 year old 8 utr against a 18 year old 7 utr I would bet on the older girl.

Also depends if the 7 utr is a rising 7 utr or falling 7 utr. Or how far she can throw a football. And the spider drill time.

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The way to settle it is 2 of 3 set match.
 
OP, I was like your daughter. I was cocky as hell. I had to decide whether to stay on the team or not, because it does take a lot away from USTA tennis, but in the end I stayed because I loved my coach and my teammates were my best friends. If I didn't have that, it would not have been worth it for me to play high school. I would stay out of it and let her have this season/year, then she can decide which route to follow.
 
GoTennis said:
My daughter is a freshman playing on her high school team. She has a UTR of 8 while the next best player is a 7. The coach assigns my daughter to play singles position 3, trailing a UTR 7 and a UTR 5. In their 1st match against another school, first 2 singles positions lost. Only my daughter won (0,0) against her opponent, within one hour.

Feels like if coach had a different lineup, all 3 positions could have won. Not sure why coach lined my daughter as position#3. In practice the coach always asks my daughter to play with same group of kids who are at the lower end of capability. My daughter is not happy because she is not getting the right workout. She talked to the coach about her concerns. However both the coach and the school athletic director bluffed away her concerns by asking her to focus on team work.

What can we do to get the coach to do what’s right for the team and for my daughter? Brainless lineup does not help anybody. Please share your advice. Thanks!
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Not sure how the coach does their line-up but we always have scrimage matches to earn positions. Our top 3-4 guys played mini sets and the results picked the line-up that week from 1-4. Sometimes their overall play and ranking made a difference and we adjusted as needed. But HS is also fair play activity for a lot of schools, so everyone participates and mixes up. Depends on what the school and AD support.
 
What ever happened to ”just let your racquet do the talking" ? Most college recruiters don't care what position you play on the HS team. They do look at your attitude and your interaction with your teammates.

If you're good, you should be able to compete against anyone at any position, anytime, under any circumstances and do well.
 
baowow said:
What ever happened to ”just let your racquet do the talking" ? Most college recruiters don't care what position you play on the HS team. They do look at your attitude and your interaction with your teammates.

If you're good, you should be able to compete against anyone at any position, anytime, under any circumstances and do well.
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That's long gone.

There's way too many helicopter parents, tiger parents, whatever - I've lost track of all the terms - to let even one moment of slight perceived unfairness pass by without an epic meltdown and uncovering the nuclear button.
 
Also. High school coaches are not well paid. They are teachers 1st.

Even college coaches in tennis are low paying. Its not like people actually care who coaches the tennis team. Its not football.

If I was making tennis coach wages I would not put up with any stupid parents either. Get the kids to the match and home safely and have a beer.

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