Higher level coaches: how much of the TTW advanced mechanics stuff do you use?

[dominikk1985]

This goes mostly to the higher level coaches here. Of course that is subjective but I'm basically talking about guys who coach for a living and regularly work with different good juniors and good adult players (say 5.0+ and college or even itf circuit).

Do you use stuff you learned here? And if yes what is it?

Btw I'm not trying to discriminate dad coaches, "housewife teaching" type of pros and other guys who want to learn which is great but I'm mostly interested in coaches in serious player development. You don't have to have world ranked guys just a bunch of good players so don't be shy to answer if you feel you are fringy.

 

[mad dog1]

This goes mostly to the higher level coaches here. Of course that is subjective but I'm basically talking about guys who coach for a living and regularly work with different good juniors and good adult players (say 5.0+ and college or even itf circuit).

Do you use stuff you learned here? And if yes what is it?

Btw I'm not trying to discriminate dad coaches, "housewife teaching" type of pros and other guys who want to learn which is great but I'm mostly interested in coaches in serious player development. You don't have to have world ranked guys just a bunch of good players so don't be shy to answer if you feel you are fringy.

Uh, high level coaches aren’t going to be learning anything new from this board. They’re coming here to get their laughs. This place is Comedy Central.

 

[dominikk1985]

Uh, high level coaches aren’t going to be learning anything new from this board. They’re coming here to get their laughs. This place is Comedy Central.

There is much bad stuff but also guys like Chas and yandell posting some good biomechanical stuff. Not all high level coaches have super detailed knowledge of biomechanics but teach a more feel and cue based system with success and still might want to learn a little about biomechanics.

 

[mad dog1]

There is much bad stuff but also guys like....posting some good biomechanical stuff. Not all high level coaches have super detailed knowledge of biomechanics but teach a more feel and cue based system with success and still might want to learn a little about biomechanics.

Lolololol!

High level coaches teach based on feel and cue because it’s impossible to accurately measure and correct real-time what angle the hips, shoulders, arms were at when the student hit the ball correctly or when they do not.

 

[WildVolley]

Lolololol!

High level coaches teach based on feel and cue because it’s impossible to accurately measure and correct real-time what anlgle the hips, shoulders, arms were at when the student hit the ball correctly or when they do not.

This is a short-sighted perspective. We have tools to more accurately measure than ever before. It really depends on the stroke and what the player is trying to accomplish.

High speed video allows us to see and identify errors that are easy to miss. Feedback times can be shortened by using the tools to identify and develop observable cues.

It simply isn't true that professional tennis players never receive technical coaching based on high speed video, the sort of stuff that's discussed here sometimes. Of course, this isn't the only sort of coaching necessary to be a high level player, but those who ridicule it are doing so based on ignorance.

 

[mad dog1]

This is a short-sighted perspective. We have tools to more accurately measure than ever before. It really depends on the stroke and what the player is trying to accomplish.

High speed video allows us to see and identify errors that are easy to miss. Feedback times can be shortened by using the tools to identify and develop observable cues.

It simply isn't true that professional tennis players never receive technical coaching based on high speed video, the sort of stuff that's discussed here sometimes. Of course, this isn't the only sort of coaching necessary to be a high level player, but those who ridicule it are doing so based on ignorance.

Not ridiculing the technical aspect. Ridiculing the thought that high level coaches are coming to the tips/instruction board for high level stuff.

The high speed video stuff isn’t easy to do REAL TIME.

 

[dominikk1985]

I think with pros it is very different. There are certainly some who go into the biomechanical lab while others prefer to follow more their feel.

An example is Novak who did change his serve because he had arm problems and it did get better. But there are certainly also some pros who just stick with what they have learned as kids, some had success with kinda unorthodox techniques.

 

[WildVolley]

Not ridiculing the technical aspect. Ridiculing the thought that high level coaches are coming to the tips/instruction board for high level stuff.

The high speed video stuff isn’t easy to do REAL TIME.

OK, that's reasonable. On the other hand, some high-level coaches have at least visited here. The signal to noise ratio can be terrible at times.

It is true that the high speed video isn't easy to use in real time. Still, I think it is probably underutilized at the professional level.

 

[dominikk1985]

You also have to consider that changing a pro stroke is very hard because he has hit it millions of times.

Even if a stroke is slightly inefficient it will take months to engrain it so stable that he does it under match stress and in the meanwhile he likely gets worse. Because of this you only change a pro stroke because it is a glaring weakness or if injury mandates it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here is a video involving some tennis serve biomechanics, Nadal and Oscar Borras. I believe that there has been controversy on this subject.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

This goes mostly to the higher level coaches here. Of course that is subjective but I'm basically talking about guys who coach for a living and regularly work with different good juniors and good adult players (say 5.0+ and college or even itf circuit).

Do you use stuff you learned here? And if yes what is it?

Btw I'm not trying to discriminate dad coaches, "housewife teaching" type of pros and other guys who want to learn which is great but I'm mostly interested in coaches in serious player development. You don't have to have world ranked guys just a bunch of good players so don't be shy to answer if you feel you are fringy.

i've definitely learned stuff here.
and/or been motivated to try stuff, that led to some insightful discovery.
and definitely youtube links posted have helped alot (or helped reinforce what i already knew, but wasn't sure about)... they especially help with ideas on how to train (not just technique)

in the last year, the biggest thing i've been focusing on is my serve... and guys like jolly helped inspire me to practice, and really explore getting better at serving.
years ago, switching to ebh for serve helped alot in getting spin (though i've since moved back to conti for slightly more pace)
reading about people's training scheds (especially our beloved ttps), helps keep me motivated to practice, especially on those days, when it's too hot, too early, too tired, too sore, etc...

occasional the comedy on here, is pretty good too... 360 serves probably topping the list. omg, i need to ask for an updated vid.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

OK, that's reasonable. On the other hand, some high-level coaches have at least visited here. The signal to noise ratio can be terrible at times.

It is true that the high speed video isn't easy to use in real time. Still, I think it is probably underutilized at the professional level.

+1
definitely more noise than not.
high speed vid is interesting... but you can't glean "feel and timing" from the vid... ie. what is the athlete engaging & when... what are they feeling (ie. the timing of the lag and snap, or the timing of all segments of the serve)
for me i had to watch stuff, then mimic it 1000's of times... and in the darkness of when i think i'll never get it... i'll have an aha moment that changes my mental model and catapults me to the next level of learning (even if it does actually set me back in the short term, because i've embarked on the "correct" but unpracticed path)

 

[FiReFTW]

I agree with @mad dog1 , the stuff that chas posts with degrees of angles of forearm and shoulder and whatever is interesting, but completely useless in teaching someone tennis.

 

[J011yroger]

On TW people care more about how a stroke looks than what it does.

Same as lousy coaches.

Real coaches don't do that.

Most real coaches come to TW to laugh at people and occasionally might come across something that makes them think a little.

90% of people aren't going to get better anyway so why bother wasting your breath?

Same with anything, if you are a grown adult who is fat and out of shape you aren't going to get in shape, it doesn't matter what gym you join, what class you take, what fitbit you buy.

But hey, look at all these pros collecting money from people who never get better and all these gyms collecting money from people who never get in shape.

J

 

[mad dog1]

On TW people care more about how a stroke looks than what it does.

Same as lousy coaches.

Real coaches don't do that.

Most real coaches come to TW to laugh at people and occasionally might come across something that makes them think a little.

90% of people aren't going to get better anyway so why bother wasting your breath?

Same with anything, if you are a grown adult who is fat and out of shape you aren't going to get in shape, it doesn't matter what gym you join, what class you take, what fitbit you buy.

But hey, look at all these pros collecting money from people who never get better and all these gyms collecting money from people who never get in shape.

J

So much truth in this post that it hurts reading it.

 

[TennisCJC]

Uh, high level coaches aren’t going to be learning anything new from this board. They’re coming here to get their laughs. This place is Comedy Central.

I once saw a guy coaching a young female collegiate player from what I picked up during the conversation. I had seen the coach practicing his serve at the courts before and he was legitimately very good - 5.0+++ player. He was left handed and serving absolute bombs hitting the fence very high with loads of spin, pace and movement. His form was excellent with almost all serves in and monster pace and spin. I've been playing 40 years and like to think I can at least see who's got it and who doesn't have it. In my opinion, I think this guy played at a very high level at some point - much much higher than good 4.5 level.

I was practicing my serve next to this coach while he was giving the very good female player a lesson. I thought it was one of the worst lessons I've ever witnessed. He was positioning the student in different areas of the court and telling her all the possible options she had for spin and placement based on the type of incoming ball she faced from each location. He was giving this poor student so many options for each contact location (where he positioned her) that it was completely impossible for anyone to digest and comprehend it. He seemed to assume that the student could hit any spin from any height and place the ball to a variety of locations. He did one or 2 demo strokes of a few of the myriad of options but in general, 98% of the time was spent talking and mostly him running through way too much information. Personally, I think the guy was probably respected by the student because she could tell he was the real deal as far as playing the game, but I thought the lesson was a total waste of time - too much information, not enough demonstration, not simplifying options (how many people can evaluate 4 to 6 options for every stroke). The student probably only hit a few drop feeds and I mean very few. Even a good collegiate player needs more demonstration, feedback on practice attempts and simplification of tactics. Tactics should stress high percentage options but this guy seemed to assume the student player had unlimited talent. I saw her hit a few balls and she was very good but no way should could apply all the options. I almost laughed out loud because some of his instruction was just goofy - telling her so many option so quickly that it seemed silly.

I just wanted to make the point that some "high level" coaches are terrible as coaches even though they may be great players.

 

[TennisCJC]

I agree with @mad dog1 , the stuff that chas posts with degrees of angles of forearm and shoulder and whatever is interesting, but completely useless in teaching someone tennis.

Yea, Chas' stuff is interesting and sometimes hits the point but it sometimes it goes over my head. I tend to learn through demonstration and visualization. Chas might be a great coach if he could reduce it down to simple progressions based on a few key visualization or demonstrable points. But, Chas is very educated and enjoys the intellectual analysis a lot so good for him. He has fun.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@dominikk1985 ... since you summoned the coaches, I am going to ask them a question:

For those that use video review/analysis ... do you find it more useful for coiling than uncoiling?

This is what I mean ... based on just using video for my 2hbh DIY purposes.

Starting with uncoiling examples where video didn't really help. My assumption is a skilled experienced coach would have a bag of drills/tricks to help get the player to their own aha moment.

1) time drop and swing. A coach or video can't show/tell you how to do this ... you have to feel/learn this for yourself. Coaches will use medicine balls, drills, etc to help you learn for yourself.
2) all the stuff that can't really be measured ... grip pressure, k-chain, etc ...

But for coiling, I found video and checkpoint snapshots very helpful/useful:

Examples ... all right there in slow mo video or frames:
- stance
- feet/hips/shoulders in backswing
- backswing prep in relation to bounce
- arms and hands racquet angle at backswing
- racquet face in stroke/contact
- can even check contact point on strings
- check arm/racquet lag (how big) and at what point in forward swing the lag releases ... even if lag happens passively ... trust but verify.

I could make a much longer list ... but my gist is I have found coiling video review very useful, and uncoiling not as much. There are exceptions ... check lag, check contact point, racquet face orientation, etc... but the forward swing is dnamic to me, where prep is static. Teach good coil ... much of the uncoil takes care of itself (has to be learned/felt) by player.

?

 

[J011yroger]

@dominikk1985 ... since you summoned the coaches, I am going to ask them a question:

For those that use video review/analysis ... do you find it more useful for coiling than uncoiling?

This is what I mean ... based on just using video for my 2hbh DIY purposes.

Starting with uncoiling examples where video didn't really help. My assumption is a skilled experienced coach would have a bag of drills/tricks to help get the player to their own aha moment.

1) time drop and swing. A coach or video can't show/tell you how to do this ... you have to feel/learn this for yourself. Coaches will use medicine balls, drills, etc to help you learn for yourself.
2) all the stuff that can't really be measured ... grip pressure, k-chain, etc ...

But for coiling, I found video and checkpoint snapshots very helpful/useful:

Examples ... all right there in slow mo video or frames:
- stance
- feet/hips/shoulders in backswing
- backswing prep in relation to bounce
- arms and hands racquet angle at backswing
- racquet face in stroke/contact
- can even check contact point on strings
- check arm/racquet lag (how big) and at what point in forward swing the lag releases ... even if lag happens passively ... trust but verify.

I could make a much longer list ... but my gist is I have found coiling video review very useful, and uncoiling not as much. There are exceptions ... check lag, check contact point, racquet face orientation, etc... but the forward swing is dnamic to me, where prep is static. Teach good coil ... much of the uncoil takes care of itself (has to be learned/felt) by player.

?

Option B you don't know what to look for.

J

 

[coupergear]

A coach would not find much value here, IMO. The scope of this forum is more narrow.

Tips are short concise bits of advice meant for the player to digest and work on in their game, however they see fit. They can be very valuable, or not. They are tweaks meant to take an inefficient existing movement, and improve it to make it closer to the ideal movement. I don't think there is a lot of disagreement over the ideal mechanics for tennis strokes. (OK some argue for 2HFH and 360serve) Even if you're not technical, you know them when you see them. But tips/cues (the bulk of this forum) are not the bulk of coaching.

Coaching is another thing entirely. How do you build a multi-hour lesson/clinic/training that incorporates and teaches the mechanics of tennis? Which cues are appropriate? What kind of learner is your player(s)? How do you teach a progression--how long at each step? How to feed balls for that step? How often to train? How to keep people interested? Talking too much? Too little? Using a ball machine? Use the wall? Games? Point play? Match play? Tournaments? How often? Drills? Training balls? Small courts? Stretchy bands behind your legs attached to a belt? Leather whips? How much aerobic training? How much strength training? Agility drills? Stretching? The permutations are endless about how to actually coach.

This forum does not get into nuts and bolts of developing a real coaching or teaching plan over a long term lesson or season, but focuses mainly on cues. I think a coach could possibly get some new ideas for teaching cues here, but would not find much of value to use towards their actual coaching.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Option B you don't know what to look for.

J

Any player can check the coiling stuff. Did you turn your shoulders, how much? What was your stance? I learned some of what to look for here ... some from painful Jolly reviews.

I don't buy the ttw slamming. For one thing, much of the information here comes from ttw members that do coach/instruct, videos they link, and players like you with access to top instructors. If we don't know what to look for, you need to do a better job of telling us.

 

[ByeByePoly]

A coach would not find much value here, IMO. The scope of this forum is more narrow.

Tips are short concise bits of advice meant for the player to digest and work on in their game, however they see fit. They can be very valuable, or not. They are tweaks meant to take an inefficient existing movement, and improve it to make it closer to the ideal movement. I don't think there is a lot of disagreement over the ideal mechanics for tennis strokes. (OK some argue for 2HFH and 360serve) Even if you're not technical, you know them when you see them. But tips/cues (the bulk of this forum) are not the bulk of coaching.

Coaching is another thing entirely. How do you build a multi-hour lesson/clinic/training that incorporates and teaches the mechanics of tennis? Which cues are appropriate? What kind of learner is your player(s)? How do you teach a progression--how long at each step? How to feed balls for that step? How often to train? How to keep people interested? Talking too much? Too little? Using a ball machine? Use the wall? Games? Point play? Match play? Tournaments? How often? Drills? Training balls? Small courts? Stretchy bands behind your legs attached to a belt? Leather whips? How much aerobic training? How much strength training? Agility drills? Stretching? The permutations are endless about how to actually coach.

This forum does not get into nuts and bolts of developing a real coaching or teaching plan over a long term lesson or season, but focuses mainly on cues. I think a coach could possibly get some new ideas for teaching cues here, but would not find much of value to use towards their actual coaching.

Great post. At a minimum you get data on player confusion in a more detailed form than the hour on the court with them. Oh cr@p ... we are being studied ... we are lab mice.

 

[mad dog1]

I once saw a guy coaching a young female collegiate player from what I picked up during the conversation. I had seen the coach practicing his serve at the courts before and he was legitimately very good - 5.0+++ player. He was left handed and serving absolute bombs hitting the fence very high with loads of spin, pace and movement. His form was excellent with almost all serves in and monster pace and spin. I've been playing 40 years and like to think I can at least see who's got it and who doesn't have it. In my opinion, I think this guy played at a very high level at some point - much much higher than good 4.5 level.

I was practicing my serve next to this coach while he was giving the very good female player a lesson. I thought it was one of the worst lessons I've ever witnessed. He was positioning the student in different areas of the court and telling her all the possible options she had for spin and placement based on the type of incoming ball she faced from each location. He was giving this poor student so many options for each contact location (where he positioned her) that it was completely impossible for anyone to digest and comprehend it. He seemed to assume that the student could hit any spin from any height and place the ball to a variety of locations. He did one or 2 demo strokes of a few of the myriad of options but in general, 98% of the time was spent talking and mostly him running through way too much information. Personally, I think the guy was probably respected by the student because she could tell he was the real deal as far as playing the game, but I thought the lesson was a total waste of time - too much information, not enough demonstration, not simplifying options (how many people can evaluate 4 to 6 options for every stroke). The student probably only hit a few drop feeds and I mean very few. Even a good collegiate player needs more demonstration, feedback on practice attempts and simplification of tactics. Tactics should stress high percentage options but this guy seemed to assume the student player had unlimited talent. I saw her hit a few balls and she was very good but no way should could apply all the options. I almost laughed out loud because some of his instruction was just goofy - telling her so many option so quickly that it seemed silly.

I just wanted to make the point that some "high level" coaches are terrible as coaches even though they may be great players.

What you described is a high level PLAYER, not a high level COACH. Very different things. I haven’t seen many good coaches.

 

[5263]

@dominikk1985 ... since you summoned the coaches, I am going to ask them a question:

For those that use video review/analysis ... do you find it more useful for coiling than uncoiling?

This is what I mean ... based on just using video for my 2hbh DIY purposes.

Starting with uncoiling examples where video didn't really help. My assumption is a skilled experienced coach would have a bag of drills/tricks to help get the player to their own aha moment.

1) time drop and swing. A coach or video can't show/tell you how to do this ... you have to feel/learn this for yourself. Coaches will use medicine balls, drills, etc to help you learn for yourself.
2) all the stuff that can't really be measured ... grip pressure, k-chain, etc ...

But for coiling, I found video and checkpoint snapshots very helpful/useful:

Examples ... all right there in slow mo video or frames:
- stance
- feet/hips/shoulders in backswing
- backswing prep in relation to bounce
- arms and hands racquet angle at backswing
- racquet face in stroke/contact
- can even check contact point on strings
- check arm/racquet lag (how big) and at what point in forward swing the lag releases ... even if lag happens passively ... trust but verify.

I could make a much longer list ... but my gist is I have found coiling video review very useful, and uncoiling not as much. There are exceptions ... check lag, check contact point, racquet face orientation, etc... but the forward swing is dnamic to me, where prep is static. Teach good coil ... much of the uncoil takes care of itself (has to be learned/felt) by player.

?

about equal for me... coiling and uncoiling issues are key...

 

[5263]

This goes mostly to the higher level coaches here. Of course that is subjective but I'm basically talking about guys who coach for a living and regularly work with different good juniors and good adult players (say 5.0+ and college or even itf circuit).

Do you use stuff you learned here? And if yes what is it?

Btw I'm not trying to discriminate dad coaches, "housewife teaching" type of pros and other guys who want to learn which is great but I'm mostly interested in coaches in serious player development. You don't have to have world ranked guys just a bunch of good players so don't be shy to answer if you feel you are fringy.

yes, while I've seen lots of things not so good, over the years I've seen quite a few useful things to use and learn more about on this forum. I think some would be totally surprised who is lurking and reading this board from around the world. I've had contact with many of them who follow it on the reg.

 

[mad dog1]

yes, while I've seen lots of things not so good, over the years I've seen quite a few useful things to use and learn more about on this forum. I think some would be totally surprised who is lurking and reading this board from around the world. I've had contact with many of them who follow it on the reg.

Are you now teaching the post modern strokes?

 

[5263]

Are you now teaching the post modern strokes?

You can say that if you like, but there is a lot more to tennis than stroke mechanics...

 

[ByeByePoly]

about equal for me... coiling and uncoiling issues are key...

I assume you use video review ... any opinion on my question/observation? Video review more helpful for coiling phase than uncoiling phase? Coiling a static endpoint before uncoiling? I think of the coiling/uncoiling delineation point as when the shoulder starts forward ... others might say leg drive or hip. Regardless ... I find coiling checkpoints (pics) fairly obvious, not that much to debate (but we do ). The forward swing ... just consider the atp fh flip/swivel threads ... ceases to be static checkpoints. I can (did) easily teach myself 2hbh coiling ... I did (I say teach myself ... but that includes online instruction and pro 2hbh video). The major learning curve is the uncoiling. I think it partly takes care of itself with reps if you start from proper coiling, but if your goal is elite level ... you would want elite level uncoiling instruction. IMO.

For purposes

 

[mad dog1]

You can say that if you like, but there is a lot more to tennis than stroke mechanics...

Agreed. Footwork, fitness, movement, agility, body balance...all more important after decent stroke mechanics are achieved.

 

[WildVolley]

+1
definitely more noise than not.
high speed vid is interesting... but you can't glean "feel and timing" from the vid... ie. what is the athlete engaging & when... what are they feeling (ie. the timing of the lag and snap, or the timing of all segments of the serve)
for me i had to watch stuff, then mimic it 1000's of times... and in the darkness of when i think i'll never get it... i'll have an aha moment that changes my mental model and catapults me to the next level of learning (even if it does actually set me back in the short term, because i've embarked on the "correct" but unpracticed path)

I've discovered going by "feel" can be highly deceptive. The great thing about video is you can see what you're actually doing and how widely it can diverge from what you "feel" or "believe" you're doing. So one thing that professionals have over the rest of us is a lot of video these days of how they hit, if they're willing to look at it.

 

[J011yroger]

I've discovered going by "feel" can be highly deceptive. The great thing about video is you can see what you're actually doing and how widely it can diverge from what you "feel" or "believe" you're doing. So one thing that professionals have over the rest of us is a lot of video these days of how they hit, if they're willing to look at it.

TW Poster: I have achieved identical coil and hip/shoulder separation angles to Federer.

Real Coach: Hit the ****ing ball harder.

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I've discovered going by "feel" can be highly deceptive. The great thing about video is you can see what you're actually doing and how widely it can diverge from what you "feel" or "believe" you're doing. So one thing that professionals have over the rest of us is a lot of video these days of how they hit, if they're willing to look at it.

agreed, i need to both to help me get to a better mental model, both visually and kinethetically.

 

[WildVolley]

I agree with @mad dog1 , the stuff that chas posts with degrees of angles of forearm and shoulder and whatever is interesting, but completely useless in teaching someone tennis.

But a lot of these discussions of angles and whatnot are NOT useless in high-level technique coaching. Professionals already know how to play tennis. The technical stuff can be used to identify how to optimize technique, especially on the serve, the only self-fed shot in tennis.

I've seen convincing (at least to me) video analysis of professionals showing how they could improve a shot by making some small changes in toss location and racquet path. Some professionals do make obvious technical changes (Djokovic for example) but most don't seem to want to change what they do. Of course, a coach needs to intelligently identify what's seen on video into practical changes that can be visually identified by the player and the coach, such as a change in toss location, a change in elbow position, etc.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

TW Poster: I have achieved identical coil and hip/shoulder separation angles to Federer.

Real Coach: Hit the ****ing ball harder.

J

haha, so true.
imagine using slow mo video to teach toddlers how to walk

 

[J011yroger]

But a lot of these discussions of angles and whatnot are NOT useless in high-level technique coaching. Professionals already know how to play tennis. The technical stuff can be used to identify how to optimize technique, especially on the serve, the only self-fed shot in tennis.

I've seen convincing (at least to me) video analysis of professionals showing how they could improve a shot by making some small changes in toss location and racquet path. Some professionals do make obvious technical changes (Djokovic for example) but most don't seem to want to change what they do. Of course, a coach needs to intelligently change what's seen on video into practical changes that can be visually identified by the player and the coach, such as a change in toss location, a change in elbow position, etc.

Cilic!

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

TW Poster: I have achieved identical coil and hip/shoulder separation angles to Federer.

Real Coach: Hit the ****ing ball harder.

J

Hey ... save your $ ... I will tell you that every morning with my coffee.

 

[FiReFTW]

I've discovered going by "feel" can be highly deceptive. The great thing about video is you can see what you're actually doing and how widely it can diverge from what you "feel" or "believe" you're doing. So one thing that professionals have over the rest of us is a lot of video these days of how they hit, if they're willing to look at it.

I don't think any pro player looks at their strokes in slow motion and analyzes how much angles he has and how he should change them, most pro players don't even know what grip they use on their strokes, its natural and achieved by feel, they know how to grip the racquet because it feels like its a natural thing, extension of their arm.

Video can be good to improve fundamentals and flaws and such, but most pro players have quite high technique and very solid fundamentals, and wouldn't really get much from this.

 

[J011yroger]

Hey ... save your $ ... I will tell you that every morning with my coffee.

They actually never say hit the ball harder, they say swing faster.

J

 

[WildVolley]

I don't think any pro player looks at their strokes in slow motion and analyzes how much angles he has and how he should change them, most pro players don't even know what grip they use on their strokes, its natural and achieved by feel, they know how to grip the racquet because it feels like its a natural thing, extension of their arm.

Video can be good to improve fundamentals and flaws and such, but most pro players have quite high technique and very solid fundamentals, and wouldn't really get much from this.

Probably true for most players. However, my friends saw Djokovic work for about a half-hour on backhand technique and discussion with his coaches a few years ago. The coach needs to know how his player hits and why something now seems "off."

Yandell has used video for technique work on players who have "lost" a stroke. He was able to identify what had changed and then give practical coaching cues to regain the old form.

 

[WildVolley]

Cilic!

J

I don't think Goran actually used slow motion video. But making Cilic drop the toss level and not bend his knees so much clearly improved his serve, at least for a while.

 

[J011yroger]

I don't think Goran actually used slow motion video. But making Cilic drop the toss level and not bend his knees so much clearly improved his serve, at least for a while.

I'm convinced Delpo would serve 140+ if he tossed 2' lower and 1.5' to the right.

J

 

[user92626]

I agree with @mad dog1 , the stuff that chas posts with degrees of angles of forearm and shoulder and whatever is interesting, but completely useless in teaching someone tennis.

I disagree. Stuff that Chas posts is good if you have an idea of what you're looking for.

He was the one that brought me into awareness of ISR through his persistent mentioning. It works.



Why would you want Chas to post like the rest of the peanut gallery?

 

[USAFA10s]

Uh, high level coaches aren’t going to be learning anything new from this board. They’re coming here to get their laughs. This place is Comedy Central.

New here and I coach mostly strong juniors, but so far I'm here for the LOLs Some entertaining stuff for sure. My procrastination has been greatly aided by this forum

 

[ByeByePoly]

They actually never say hit the ball harder, they say swing faster.

J

Got it ... every morning ... swing faster you big wuss

 

[5263]

Agreed. Footwork, fitness, movement, agility, body balance...all more important after decent stroke mechanics are achieved.

I prefer to develop most of them in parallel and observe that going for a higher level of stroke mechanics first is an easy way to not hit the other stuff adequately if ever.

 

[J011yroger]

I prefer to develop most of them in parallel and observe that going for a higher level of stroke mechanics first is an easy way to not hit the other stuff adequately if ever.

I went to a clinic on movement for prospective college or professional athletes. It was mind blowing to me that this stuff wasn't taught to every person before they ever play a game/match/whatever.

J

 

[mad dog1]

...He was able to identify what had changed and then give practical coaching cues to regain the old form.

Exactly. High speed video is very useful for sure. But I’m sure he didn’t say, “you need to turn you hips an additional 5 degrees and your wrist pronation by 2 degrees. How does a player even measure it they’ve achieved those exact angles during practice?

 

[WildVolley]

Exactly. High speed video is very useful for sure. But I’m sure he didn’t say, “you need to turn you hips an additional 5 degrees and your wrist pronation by 2 degrees. How does a player even measure it they’ve achieved those exact angles during practice?

This is true, but I've always taken it as a given that the particular degree stuff is just precision for precision's sake. I don't take it too seriously. I try to analyze what effective pros do and see how I can possibly train to hit in a similar way.

For example, if I find the racquet is too inline with my forearm at contact on the serve, I can move my toss more to the left and attempt to slightly drop the contact point.

Of course, for most rec-players, we need work on both technique and just basic stuff like moving our feet. Sometimes it is just helpful to be told you were standing around after you hit the ball in your match. You'd think that was just common sense, but on this board we actually have people arguing that split-stepping is for losers, etc. I think more of the criticism should be directed at those people rather than those obsessing on racquet angles in the optimal forehand.

 

[5263]

I assume you use video review ... any opinion on my question/observation? Video review more helpful for coiling phase than uncoiling phase? Coiling a static endpoint before uncoiling? I think of the coiling/uncoiling delineation point as when the shoulder starts forward ... others might say leg drive or hip. Regardless ... I find coiling checkpoints (pics) fairly obvious, not that much to debate (but we do ). The forward swing ... just consider the atp fh flip/swivel threads ... ceases to be static checkpoints. I can (did) easily teach myself 2hbh coiling ... I did (I say teach myself ... but that includes online instruction and pro 2hbh video). The major learning curve is the uncoiling. I think it partly takes care of itself with reps if you start from proper coiling, but if your goal is elite level ... you would want elite level uncoiling instruction. IMO.

For purposes

Sure, I get your point and see where you can get a lot out of looking at the 'optimal coil' as a goal.

 

[mad dog1]

You'd think that was just common sense, but on this board we actually have people arguing that split-stepping is for losers, etc. I think more of the criticism should be directed at those people rather than those obsessing on racquet angles in the optimal forehand.

Yes, these are the people I was referring to in my Comedy Central reference. Also the same folks who can’t do mini tennis properly so therefore they proclaim it to be useless and make fun of those who can do it properly. And those who advocate everyone should be hitting all forehands from an open stance.

Notice I actually removed yandell and Chas’ names from the original message I quoted. I understand the value and believe in the use of high speed video for instruction. But if you can’t even do mini tennis which is generally done in slower motion than the baseline strokes at full speed, how is high speed video going to help you? If you are spraying forehands all over the court on slow balls fed from a ball machine, maybe it’s better to focus on the basic elements of a proper forehand instead of looking at advanced mechanics. Do you really think a high level coach is going to be coming here to grow his technical understanding of strokes from those who don’t even understand the fundamentals?