Higher level coaches: how much of the TTW advanced mechanics stuff do you use?

USAFA10s said:
New here and I coach mostly strong juniors, but so far I'm here for the LOLs :) Some entertaining stuff for sure. My procrastination has been greatly aided by this forum
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To the guys that "like" this post, why would you like it if you frequently hand out tips and such? Is this post not an insult to you guys or at least making fun of you? :) Strange humor!.


(I probably can laugh cuz I almost never offer tips, coaching stuff. hehehe :))
 
user92626 said:
To the guys that "like" this post, why would you like it if you frequently hand out tips and such? Is this post not an insult to you guys or at least making fun of you? :) Strange humor!.


(I probably can laugh cuz I almost never offer tips, coaching stuff. hehehe :))
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first of all if you can't laugh at yourself, you have no right laughing at anyone else.
if i got insulted/offended/angry/etc... so easily by someone making fun of me... well i should probably get over myself and not be such a pansy.

so while i do hand out tips (more like share my own experiences), i'm trying to do 2 things:
1) share, so it might help others...
2) if it gets lolz, that's ok, as long as i can also get some feedback on how i might get better (ie. point how i'm wrong)

so for example, if i demostrated that the "tip" that worked for my serve was to spin 360, i'd hope someone would lol, but then proceed to educate me on why not doing the 360 might be a better approach.
or if my "tip" was to hit a fh by exaggerating, and "timing" the windshield wiper motion at contact... i'd hope that someone would help me down a brighter path.
 
user92626 said:
Where did you get that from, fortune cookies?

I guess it must be true, since I like fortune cookies too.
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aha! now i know where you got your self rating of UTR12.9... from the lucky numbers of the your fortune. if that's the case, it must be true!
 
5263 said:
Sure, I get your point and see where you can get a lot out of looking at the 'optimal coil' as a goal.
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No ... not exactly what I meant here. I wasn't declaring a goal ... i.e. maximum coil. I was saying whatever your coil goals were ... fairly straightforward to check by video.

Pick any coil goal you want. Maybe something as simple as:

1) hit from semi open stance
2) my hips were turned past my feet
3) my shoulders were turned past my hips ... and shoulder line more or less toward back fence.

That is an easy thing to check by anyone by video.

Now consider the following goal:

To hit the fh flip like Fed ... hand leads butt cap, yada yada yada:

A bit more of a challenge to verify by video, or use pro video visual cues to DIY. That was my only point here.
 
ByeByePoly said:
No ... not exactly what I meant here. I wasn't declaring a goal ... i.e. maximum coil. I was saying whatever your coil goals were ... fairly straightforward to check by video.

Pick any coil goal you want. Maybe something as simple as:
.
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That why I said "optimal" instead of maximum...you can decide what is optimal for you in a given situation...
 
mad dog1 said:
Do you really think a high level coach is going to be coming here to grow his technical understanding of strokes from those who don’t even understand the fundamentals? :D
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I doubt they come to grow from those who don't understand, but they do come to see what is being discussed and grow from some who DO understand the fundamentals.

Do you remember when many top coaches scoffed at the idea of the ATP timing enhanced Fh? Now it has changed the landscape of Pro tennis. This forum was one of the early places this was debated and berated by coaches who didn't understand it yet. That is just one of several concepts that got intense interest here before most high profile coaches ever heard of it.
 
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5263 said:
I doubt they come to grow from those who don't understand, but they do come to see what is being discussed and grow from some who DO understand the fundamentals.

Do you remember when many top coaches scoffed at the idea of the ATP timing Fh? Now it has changed the landscape of Pro tennis. This forum was one of the early places this was debated and berated by coaches who didn't understand it yet. That is just one of several concepts that got intense interest here before most high profile coaches ever heard of it.
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what is the “atp timing fh”?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
WildVolley said:
This is true, but I've always taken it as a given that the particular degree stuff is just precision for precision's sake. I don't take it too seriously. I try to analyze what effective pros do and see how I can possibly train to hit in a similar way.

For example, if I find the racquet is too inline with my forearm at contact on the serve, I can move my toss more to the left and attempt to slightly drop the contact point.

Of course, for most rec-players, we need work on both technique and just basic stuff like moving our feet. Sometimes it is just helpful to be told you were standing around after you hit the ball in your match. You'd think that was just common sense, but on this board we actually have people arguing that split-stepping is for losers, etc. I think more of the criticism should be directed at those people rather than those obsessing on racquet angles in the optimal forehand.
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Welcome to Tee Dubya where 3.5ish players who would be better off kicking the ball over the net with their foot than attempting a legitimate second serve criticize the teaching of Salzy/Phillipousis/Soderling.

J
 
user92626 said:
To the guys that "like" this post, why would you like it if you frequently hand out tips and such? Is this post not an insult to you guys or at least making fun of you? :) Strange humor!.


(I probably can laugh cuz I almost never offer tips, coaching stuff. hehehe :))
Click to expand...

I like it because I know most people ignore my tips and will never get better and it gives me satisfaction to see people fail when they ignore me.

J
 
mad dog1 said:
Do you really think a high level coach is going to be coming here to grow his technical understanding of strokes from those who don’t even understand the fundamentals? :D
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You know, a good coach (anyone) can learn also by avoiding million, common pitfalls, right? This place can be great for that.

Theoretically, once you have eliminated all the problems, you will only have solutions, the right stuff left.

So, I would say, soldier on, tips forum contributors!! :D
 
Deleted member 23235 said:
what is the “atp timing fh”?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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This is the takeback that keeps the racquet on the same side as the hitting side and avoids the WTA wrap at the back.... We see even many Tour Pros that have worked to eliminate "the wrap" backswing and usually refer to it as a "shortened backswing". I find that title problematic, because we don't won't to shorten the backswing, but instead we just want it to be more direct. One of the newest adjustments we are seeing worked on now came on TT back around 2007 (roughly) as the swivel to the slot entry. Players are now actively working to be more direct in this aspect too and getting away from the big C's wasted motion.
 
5263 said:
This is the takeback that keeps the racquet on the same side as the hitting side and avoids the WTA wrap at the back.... We see even many Tour Pros that have worked to eliminate "the wrap" backswing and usually refer to it as a "shortened backswing". I find that title problematic, because we don't won't to shorten the backswing, but instead we just want it to be more direct. One of the newest adjustments we are seeing worked on now came on TT back around 2007 (roughly) as the swivel to the slot entry. Players are now actively working to be more direct in this aspect too and getting away from the big C's wasted motion.
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It seems like the “Gravity for power” idea behind huge loop is almost dead.
 
5263 said:
Yes, the receiving big spin and velocity pretty much killed it other than winding up for a big hit on an easy sitter.
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What’s your thought on ‘the forward swing path should be inside out’?
When you keep the racket on hitting side is it less likely to happen?
 
5263 said:
This is the takeback that keeps the racquet on the same side as the hitting side and avoids the WTA wrap at the back.... We see even many Tour Pros that have worked to eliminate "the wrap" backswing and usually refer to it as a "shortened backswing". I find that title problematic, because we don't won't to shorten the backswing, but instead we just want it to be more direct. One of the newest adjustments we are seeing worked on now came on TT back around 2007 (roughly) as the swivel to the slot entry. Players are now actively working to be more direct in this aspect too and getting away from the big C's wasted motion.
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i am "deleted 23235 = nytennisaddict", like this thread, resurrected as nyta2, thx for answering my 6y old question :)
"working to be more direct.." from my experience, this is the same as making my "C" smaller and smaller (eg. at minimum the tip of the racquet always makes a C)
Curious said:
What’s your thought on ‘the forward swing path should be inside out’?
When you keep the racket on hitting side is it less likely to happen?
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when i first started trying the "atp fh" i think i incorrectly started swinging outside-in...
ballmachineguy said:
Umm, when was it ever a thing?
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even when i make a "small C" (eg. wrist circle), gravity is pulling the racquet down (vs. me actively tracing a C with my wrist)
 
It seems like this section has been taken over by 3.5 players giving tips to each other that you won’t find in any coaching handbook. They seem to have driven away all the actual coaches who used to post more regularly years ago.

Some of the biomechanics research studies posted on here have been interesting to me.
 
At what level rec players are qualified to give tips? 4.5? Aren’t 3.5s able to think, observe, understand? Are their brains also 3.5? What if a 6.0 thinks 4.5s giving tips are laughable?
 
travlerajm said:
Yes
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I asked a “when” question. I assume you were answering “is it a thing?”
If you wanted to use gravity to increase swing speed, you would drive the hitting shoulder as the racquet started to drop during a big loop forehand . The problem with that would be that it would be extremely difficult to get the racquet head up to ball height for contact. Your shoulder drive/rotation would be over by the time the racquet was near its lowest point and you’d have to use just the arm to lift. What actually happens is that a WTA forehand waits until the racquet is very nearly fully dropped before the drive portion. Then, it is not so hard to get the racquet head up, as when you drive the shoulder, centrifugal force naturally helps raise the hand/racquet. WTA loop is to create spin. ATP creates spin just differently. With either stroke, any high to low to high movement is about spin production.
 
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Curious said:
At what level rec players are qualified to give tips? 4.5? Aren’t 3.5s able to think, observe, understand? Are their brains also 3.5? What if a 6.0 thinks 4.5s giving tips are laughable?
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They should probably just not.

Professionals are professionals for a reason.

Maybe you can change your bathroom sink, and maybe your neighbor who is handy with a wrench can help you change your sink, but neither of you should be giving internet strangers plumbing advice.

I'm sure there is something that you do for a living and are fairly competent at. Think of a few other people who have the same job as you and kind of suck at it. Then think of how much worse than those people who suck at your job hobbyists are.

J
 
ballmachineguy said:
I asked a “when” question. I assume you were answering “is it a thing?”
If you wanted to use gravity to increase swing speed, you would drive the hitting shoulder as the racquet started to drop during a big loop forehand . The problem with that would be that it would be extremely difficult to get the racquet head up to ball height for contact. What actually happens is that a WTA forehand waits until the racquet is very nearly fully dropped before the drive portion. Then, it is not so hard to get the racquet head up, as when you drive the shoulder, centrifugal force naturally raises the hand/racquet. WTA loop is to create spin. ATP creates spin just differently. With either stroke, any high to low to high movement is about spin production.
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No.

J
 
I work for a high performance juniors training program, and by all means I’m still learning from the owner who have been teaching tennis for 20+ years. I would say my perception on how tennis should be taught is far different than what many people thinks. It’s an absolute joke reading all the advises.

For one…many posts on TT will try to break down someone’s execution and compare them to pro video breakdown, movement for movement. It is completely wrong to make any direct comparison, and it’s an epic mistake to try to pin anyone to correlate their execution to a pro execution. Most of these pros have been learning since they are 5/6/7, they know exactly what they need to gain and how to adjust. The MM adjustments they’re getting advise for is to get a competitive edge, but not necessarily guaranteed results.

Secondly…teaching tennis is part art, part science, part emotional and physical feel. You can’t teach technique if someone doesn’t know what to feel for. More so, the right technique doesn’t guarantee the ball going in. And I think that’s the biggest mistake TT assumes. Even if you know what to change, do you know what you’re feeling for?

Lastly, all the technique changes ultimately promotes racket control. This single point is never a point of discussion in anything anyone posts.
 
J011yroger said:
They should probably just not.

Professionals are professionals for a reason.

Maybe you can change your bathroom sink, and maybe your neighbor who is handy with a wrench can help you change your sink, but neither of you should be giving internet strangers plumbing advice.

I'm sure there is something that you do for a living and are fairly competent at. Think of a few other people who have the same job as you and kind of suck at it. Then think of how much worse than those people who suck at your job hobbyists are.

J
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Ok but isn’t this place 90% about hobbyists helping hobbyists?
 
Curious said:
At what level rec players are qualified to give tips? 4.5? Aren’t 3.5s able to think, observe, understand? Are their brains also 3.5? What if a 6.0 thinks 4.5s giving tips are laughable?
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I chuckle every time I read some 4.5 player claiming 4.5 is exactly where “higher-level” starts :laughing:

Though the comedy of the situation doesn’t automatically make him wrong. Just like a 3.5 player or a 6.0 player, he can simply be observant and smart and interpret things correctly. And just happen to be borderline good enough — into the “better” pack :-D
 
Curious said:
At what level rec players are qualified to give tips? 4.5? Aren’t 3.5s able to think, observe, understand? Are their brains also 3.5? What if a 6.0 thinks 4.5s giving tips are laughable?
Click to expand...

Dragy said:
I chuckle every time I read some 4.5 player claiming 4.5 is exactly where “higher-level” starts :laughing:

Though the comedy of the situation doesn’t automatically make him wrong. Just like a 3.5 player or a 6.0 player, he can simply be observant and smart and interpret things correctly. And just happen to be borderline good enough — into the “better” pack :-D
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ken DeHart - PTR master pro. NTRP 3.5.

Does his rating disqualifies him from giving advise?

Probably not.
 
J011yroger said:
They should probably just not.

Professionals are professionals for a reason.

Maybe you can change your bathroom sink, and maybe your neighbor who is handy with a wrench can help you change your sink, but neither of you should be giving internet strangers plumbing advice.

I'm sure there is something that you do for a living and are fairly competent at. Think of a few other people who have the same job as you and kind of suck at it. Then think of how much worse than those people who suck at your job hobbyists are.

J
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Unfortunately, “rec tennis coach” as a profession doesn’t have too good of reputation. It looks like there’s a deficit of competent coaches to cover the needs, and you also don’t expect to get a lot of personalized high-quality advice free of charge (which is legit).

Those high-level guys who are willing to share and reply just do it, and don’t care about no “3.5 giving advice to each other”. They just don’t feel offended. I mean Serve Doc, John Yandell, Chuck Tomlin (5263) and likely some others. Those who don’t need to prove anything, just be helpful and sharing when they like to, or not — when they are not feeling it worth it or just busy.
 
What sort of formal training/education do you need to take to be a qualified tennis coach and say you’re a professional ?
 
Dragy said:
Unfortunately, “rec tennis coach” as a profession doesn’t have too good of reputation. It looks like there’s a deficit of competent coaches to cover the needs, and you also don’t expect to get a lot of personalized high-quality advice free of charge (which is legit).

Those high-level guys who are willing to share and reply just do it, and don’t care about no “3.5 giving advice to each other”. They just don’t feel offended. I mean Serve Doc, John Yandell, Chuck Tomlin (5263) and likely some others. Those who don’t need to prove anything, just be helpful and sharing when they like to, or not — when they are not feeling it worth it or just busy.
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Or maybe they don’t want to engage in arguments over the 3.5 putting up a YouTube video to compare themself against, and stating the still frame of a particular movement looks the same.

Those guys are not trying to convince you they’re right. The 3.5 is trying to convince the advice given is wrong.

Mostly why the people who understands stop giving inputs.
 
badmice2 said:
Mostly why the people who understands stop giving inputs.
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It’s usually spiral dynamics :)

If you need to communicate with wide audience, you will. It has it’s own value.

If you don’t need to, you find target group to work with, you are happy — that’s great, you also don’t come to tell 3.5s how they are wrong on the forum and how much they miss. They are ok, world is ok, coaches are ok, everything is as it should be :cool:
 
Coaches either suck at teaching tennis or don’t give a sh1t whether their adult students are really learning or improving. My one handed backhand is proof!
 
Curious said:
Coaches either suck at teaching tennis or don’t give a sh1t whether their adult students are really learning or improving. My one handed backhand is proof!
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You are just a 2HBH guy, and it’s only laziness that keeping you from being good with it!

(Knees ares not my department, deal with it yourself!)
 
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