Highest % return vs. someone serving from out wide in singles?

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
This is at the 4.5 level:

If in singles someone stands out towards the doubles alley and does a flat or kick that pulls you out wide what is the highest % return?

The guy's serve isn't that hard but has a lot of spin and I have time to setup but am not sure where to aim as this isn't something I've encountered often in singles. Is he tempting me to drill my BH down the line? Should I go heavy topspin crosscourt? Try for a short return down the line or cross court?

I found this old thread and some comments said either a drop shot DTL or deep cross court return.

What do you think?

 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Too many DEPENDS!
Can he hit effective forehand odd your shorter deeper cc returns?
Can he hit those against your slices orr high bouncers?
How's his backhand cc that makes you run to the other alley?
How's your running to cover the other alley?
Do you want him at net or baseline?
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Too many DEPENDS!
Can he hit effective forehand odd your shorter deeper cc returns?
Can he hit those against your slices orr high bouncers?
How's his backhand cc that makes you run to the other alley?
How's your running to cover the other alley?
Do you want him at net or baseline?
I want him dead, so I aim for a ROS that doesn't come back, myself.
 

Zodd

Hall of Fame
agree w @LeeD that it depends. For one, does he charge the net often and does he have a weaker volley side? If he stays back, how quickly does he move to cover centre/ad side leaving himself vulnerable to a sharp angle cc?

His actions aside, for just getting your return in play cc is the higher percentage shot
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
What do you think?
A player who adopts an extreme wide service position is usually trying to drag their opponent off the court. To what end is highly contextual.

Perhaps he is trying to get you to feed his inside groundstroke, or protect his outside one. Perhaps he doesn't want to be forced back behind the baseline, so he is trying to create geometry where you cannot hit strongly through the court. Perhaps it is as simple as noticing that you do not return these sorts of serves very well. Or maybe it is something else. This is something that you need to be able to unpack on your own, based on how you observe points unfolding on court.

Once you know what he is trying to achieve, you can start thinking about the best way to counter it. A player who adopts a wide service position gives himself a couple of disadvantages. The most obvious one is leaving a lot of court open, but equally important is that they're giving up a big slice of the service box. The latter is the one I usually focus on - their serve just became way more predictable, so if I can dial in on it and start crushing the return I am giving myself a huge advantage. Once I am returning comfortably, I can start thinking about where to put that ball to minimise my risk and maximise my opponent's discomfort.

It's important to get used to thinking this way during a match - constantly asking yourself, who is doing what to whom? If my opponent is controlling how points unfold, forcing me to hit my worst shots, creating opportunities to hit his best shots, forcing me to take too many risks - how can I change that? Because at 4.5, your opponent is probably thinking this way - and if you get on top of his wide serve, he will change it up and you will have a new set of problems to deal with.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
The key is not to miss the return and in terms of high % options on returns, it would be in order:

- Deep DTM on any serve
- Crosscourt on outside serves
- Inside-in pull shot to DTL target on inside serves
- Inside-out CC on inside serves
- DTL on outside serves. The wider you are, it might be easier to hit a DTL draw (outside-in) with contact from outside the sideline. If you make contact from inside the sideline off an outside serve to hit a DTL fade shot (inside-out), it is the toughest return.

DTM and DTL returns have to be deep - if you leave them midcourt, it is an easy +1 shot for the server. Crosscourt returns can be short angles also. If the serve is weak, you can also hit short dropshots effectively to draw them in and then pass/lob them.

If he is standing very wide, he is making things easy for you as long as you can handle his wide angles as he is leaving a large space open DTL. You should also take a wide stance for two reasons - all inside serves can be pulled DTL with inside-in shots without too much risk. On wide serves if you are wide of the sideline, you can hit DTL with a draw shot (rather than fade) which is higher-%. However, you have to hit a deep DTL return and recover quickly to the other side of the centerline as otherwise, he can make you run a lot with his +1 crosscourt shot. If you hit a great DTL return that puts him in trouble, you can also approach the net. If you can hit dropshots DTL effectively, he is going to be in a lot of trouble as he has to run a lot from his wide service stance.

If his serve is strong, think about making high-% returns. If his serve is average to weak, make him pay for his wide stance by hitting a lot DTL from a wide position or by hitting dropshots.

Lastly, you might need different strategies in terms of high-% or aggression for the deuce and ad court returns as most players are stronger returning from one side of the court relative to the other especially on wide serves. On your weaker side, you might want to play high-% and on your stronger side, you might want to be more aggressive. I’m a lefty and I’m more conservative in general on deuce returns (BH) and more aggressive on ad returns (FH) off outside serves - on inside serves, I am more even on both sides. I also drop shot better on inside/body returns and so, I tend to stand wide for my return position in general.

My general philosophy in singles is to be aggressive (play short points using serve as weapon) during my service games and be more conservative during return games. If you get all your returns in play and try to play long points so that the server has to earn four points with their play during every service game, there is a good chance of breaking them once or twice per set.
 
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socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Or maybe it is something else
It might be a doubles player who doesn’t play singles too often. Unless the OP has a major weakness returning wide serves that his opponent has identified, hard to think that this is a good strategy in singles.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
It might be a doubles player who doesn’t play singles too often. Unless the OP has a major weakness returning wide serves that his opponent has identified, hard to think that this is a good strategy in singles.
I have mostly seen it used at lower levels, where servers cannot hit with much spin and returners do not vary their position very well. A strong flat server can use an extreme service position to get the ball moving laterally in a way that is very difficult to track and hit from a conventional return position.

My understanding from this board is that 4.5 is a fairly good level of player though. I would expect most good returners to just set up at an angle in the tramlines and start crushing the return.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
This is at the 4.5 level:

If in singles someone stands out towards the doubles alley and does a flat or kick that pulls you out wide what is the highest % return?

The guy's serve isn't that hard but has a lot of spin and I have time to setup but am not sure where to aim as this isn't something I've encountered often in singles. Is he tempting me to drill my BH down the line? Should I go heavy topspin crosscourt? Try for a short return down the line or cross court?

I found this old thread and some comments said either a drop shot DTL or deep cross court return.

What do you think?


DTL DS would be one of the last things I'd consider because it's the lowest %.

I'd start with deep CC and see how he reacts: is the wide serve part of a serve+1 combination where he then drills his FH DTL? Is he baiting me to go for the DTL winner? Is his BH stronger than his FH?

My response will be determined by what's working for me that day and what he does with my return.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
How good is your return though?
If you can take the ball early, then just hit back CC to the feet.
If you can't, stand far and prepare to run.
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
So that means you can probably step far inside the court and hit an approach shot down the line, correct? What is blocking you from doing a deep DTL shot (not necessarily a straight out winner, but stretch the opponent at the minimum and get an easy volley).

Is he "predicting" and getting there early? Do you lack the skills to execute a deep down the line ? Or is it that you have trouble with his spin to control the return. (lefty slice spin for example). In that case you just need to develop those skills first.

You can also mix it up with short angle cross court and short DTL drop shot, but I think deep DTL is high percentage if the opponent is not predicting, in this specific scenario.

The guy's serve isn't that hard but has a lot of spin and I have time to setup
 
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Dragy

Legend
Deep DTM is safest neutralizing option. If you get pulled off the court - higher, slower

If you want to return with more aggression, you can consider stepping in and taking it on the rise DTL. Shouldn’t be too hard or too close to the line - your main goal is to take time away and use his positioning in your favor. Put him on the run and stay inside the lines yourself - take the net maybe
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
agree w @LeeD that it depends. For one, does he charge the net often and does he have a weaker volley side? If he stays back, how quickly does he move to cover centre/ad side leaving himself vulnerable to a sharp angle cc?

His actions aside, for just getting your return in play cc is the higher percentage shot

He stays back and seems to cover the court very well. Since he moves and absorbs pace well I think the placement of my return is important.

A player who adopts an extreme wide service position is usually trying to drag their opponent off the court. To what end is highly contextual.

Perhaps he is trying to get you to feed his inside groundstroke, or protect his outside one. Perhaps he doesn't want to be forced back behind the baseline, so he is trying to create geometry where you cannot hit strongly through the court. Perhaps it is as simple as noticing that you do not return these sorts of serves very well. Or maybe it is something else. This is something that you need to be able to unpack on your own, based on how you observe points unfolding on court.

Once you know what he is trying to achieve, you can start thinking about the best way to counter it. A player who adopts a wide service position gives himself a couple of disadvantages. The most obvious one is leaving a lot of court open, but equally important is that they're giving up a big slice of the service box. The latter is the one I usually focus on - their serve just became way more predictable, so if I can dial in on it and start crushing the return I am giving myself a huge advantage. Once I am returning comfortably, I can start thinking about where to put that ball to minimise my risk and maximise my opponent's discomfort.

It's important to get used to thinking this way during a match - constantly asking yourself, who is doing what to whom? If my opponent is controlling how points unfold, forcing me to hit my worst shots, creating opportunities to hit his best shots, forcing me to take too many risks - how can I change that? Because at 4.5, your opponent is probably thinking this way - and if you get on top of his wide serve, he will change it up and you will have a new set of problems to deal with.

Not really sure what he's trying to achieve other than opening up the court for his next shot. Something else I should have mentioned is he only does this on the ad side (both of us are righty). Most of the time I've been returning cross court since I hate missing returns and am afraid of leaving myself open to his +1 FH crosscourt into the open court. Now that I'm thinking about it though it's a lot of ground for him to cover and I'm returning from a few steps inside the court so if I hit a decent return to a big target DTL I should be able to get into a good position to approach the net and be ready for his passing shot, right?

Glad you mentioned he's giving up a bit slice of the serve box. I feel a bit awkward standing out wide to return, but I know he can't blast a serve down the T from out wide like that and I should move over wide and inside the doubles alley to return.

There is definitely a lot of strategy involved as well as execution.


DTL DS would be one of the last things I'd consider because it's the lowest %.

I'd start with deep CC and see how he reacts: is the wide serve part of a serve+1 combination where he then drills his FH DTL? Is he baiting me to go for the DTL winner? Is his BH stronger than his FH?

My response will be determined by what's working for me that day and what he does with my return.

He can definitely drill his FH DTL. There were a few points where I crushed returns as hard as I could but didn't force him to move and he just redirected them DTL for a winner. If I go deep CC he'll reply with a deep TS shot to either corner. Both his GS are pretty solid. I think he actually does make few more errors with this FH, but can also hit more angles with it.

I'm trying to balance being consistent and not giving away free points on the return with keeping him off balance a bit. He loves running side to side and hitting heavy TS as well as baiting you to come in so he can either pass you or force you to hit up and then pass you with the next shot.

So that means you can probably step far inside the court and hit an approach shot down the line, correct? What is blocking you from doing a deep DTL shot (not necessarily a straight out winner, but stretch the opponent at the minimum and get an easy volley).

Is he "predicting" and getting there early? Do you lack the skills to execute a deep down the line ? Or is it that you have trouble with his spin to control the return. (lefty slice spin for example). In that case you just need to develop those skills first.

You can also mix it up with short angle cross court and short DTL drop shot, but I think deep DTL is high percentage if the opponent is not predicting, in this specific scenario.

Yep. I can step far inside the court and go deep DTL. Only thing stopping me is that he's fast and has great passing shots/lobs. If it were a lefty spin I would definitely have trouble, but in this case I'm able to drive it.
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
Since you both are at same level, if he appears to be fast, and reaching all your DTL shots without stretching, he is definitely predicting. If that is the case, you need to "hold your shot" longer in the fully setup/loaded phase, instead of trying to hurry the shot. My suggestion may appear to be counter productive, since now you are "delaying" the shot. But this "slight pause" enables you to judge the opponents move and execute a better shot, especially when opponent is trying to "predict" and make his move "as" you are hitting the ball. When you catch the opponent "cheating to one side", you don't have to execute a fast shot to stretch the opponent.

he's fast
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
The guy I actually played, not conjecture, serving from out wide, said he needed the distance to allow his serve to arc in wide slice, or dead flat, or he'd hit long.
He was 6'3" tall, did not hit with topspin, but used hard slice.
He regularly went 3-4 rounds in B tourneys.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
He can definitely drill his FH DTL. There were a few points where I crushed returns as hard as I could but didn't force him to move and he just redirected them DTL for a winner. If I go deep CC he'll reply with a deep TS shot to either corner. Both his GS are pretty solid. I think he actually does make few more errors with this FH, but can also hit more angles with it.

I'm trying to balance being consistent and not giving away free points on the return with keeping him off balance a bit. He loves running side to side and hitting heavy TS as well as baiting you to come in so he can either pass you or force you to hit up and then pass you with the next shot.

How does he handle low slices?

Floaty, deep shots?

Here's something he's not expecting: C&C by slicing the return DTL and coming in.
 
This is at the 4.5 level:

If in singles someone stands out towards the doubles alley and does a flat or kick that pulls you out wide what is the highest % return?

The guy's serve isn't that hard but has a lot of spin and I have time to setup but am not sure where to aim as this isn't something I've encountered often in singles. Is he tempting me to drill my BH down the line? Should I go heavy topspin crosscourt? Try for a short return down the line or cross court?

I found this old thread and some comments said either a drop shot DTL or deep cross court return.

What do you think?

Trying to paint the corner opposite where he served is the most definitive "get this **** out of here" response.
 

Dragy

Legend
Trying to paint the corner opposite where he served is the most definitive "get this **** out of here" response.
You don't need to exactly paint it, but hit through that opposite half of the court. Prerequisites are confidence to place the ball and ability to hit through, actually - flattish, with decent pace, or taking the ball very early. I like the chip-down idea, relying on the ball dying fast and far away from his initial position. No chance he pulls out a good passer even if gets there
 
You don't need to exactly paint it, but hit through that opposite half of the court. Prerequisites are confidence to place the ball and ability to hit through, actually - flattish, with decent pace, or taking the ball very early. I like the chip-down idea, relying on the ball dying fast and far away from his initial position. No chance he pulls out a good passer even if gets there
I prefer aspirational language.

Yeah agree with everything else. The crosscourt short shot is also a good one if he is cheating towards recovering to the other side.
 

Dragy

Legend
I prefer aspirational language.

Yeah agree with everything else. The crosscourt short shot is also a good one if he is cheating towards recovering to the other side.
The biggest thing is how much command you have over the ball returning. I personally picked Jeff Salzenstein advice and serve from wider position to the ad side, as a righty. From halfway between hash mark and sideline. This allows me to serve really wide with my kick and topslice serves, open up the court and also have easier FH play on DTM returns. I rely on my serves being rather tough to return for my competition, so they cannot punish me... well, and I don't give up too much of real estate, my recovery position is solid.
 
The biggest thing is how much command you have over the ball returning. I personally picked Jeff Salzenstein advice and serve from wider position to the ad side, as a righty. From halfway between hash mark and sideline. This allows me to serve really wide with my kick and topslice serves, open up the court and also have easier FH play on DTM returns. I rely on my serves being rather tough to return for my competition, so they cannot punish me... well, and I don't give up too much of real estate, my recovery position is solid.
That's pretty much the only time I think serving this way makes sense because otherwise it's just setting things up on a platter for a good returner as the OP describes his opponent doing.
 

derick232

Rookie
Might not be the highest percentage shot, but if his serve really isn't anything more than a lot of spin, I'd start wide and inside the court (make sure to get a good splitstep). Planning on taking the ball on the rise topspin DTL. The shot is wide open and if you're inside the court you'll be taking away lots of time from him. Doesn't even need to be a hard shot, but within a few feet of the doubles alley and moderately deep will have him chasing it. It's a good time then to come to the net for the put away volley. This could also be done with a a nicely controlled BH slice DTL if the ball is jumping up to high. Eventually if it works they will probably stop trying to hit such a wide serve which puts you in a more natural position.
 
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