Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by fundrazer, Jun 9, 2011.
"In couple of years I'll become clay court specialist. Because that will be the fastest."
Karlovic speaks the truth, this is the slowest era in the history of the sport and it seems it is still not slow enough to maximize profits for the ATP and ITF.
This is why its a joke to compare achievements across different surfaces today to 'equivalent' achievements of others in other eras where the surfaces were highly polarised not to mention the worse equipment in other eras which highlighted the differences in the polarised surfaces further.
At Roland Garros Gasquet said it was faster than Wimbledon.The transition from hard to clay to grass is very minimal today compared to other eras.
Aegon Championships, Queen's Club
It was Ivan Ljubicic, the Croatian, who earlier in the week described the grass at Queen's as slower than the clay of Roland Garros and there were times when it looked like he was right. Murray and Malisse shared a host of lengthy baseline rallies and it took 51 minutes before the Scot even served and volleyed for the first time.
I don't understand why it was so slow," Murray said. "I don't mind a slow grass court but it's the slowest I've seen it. But it's good because I've got to play a lot of rallies and test it out and do a lot of running, so in that respect it's good."
It's the weather. Paris was mostly hot and sunny. London has been cloudly and rainy thus far.
Isn't that the norm, thought?
Not much going on in cloudy little Britain.
Strange,I watched Roddick-Anderson,set of Janko-Murray and 2 sets of Nadal-Stepanek and it didn't seem that slow to me to be honest,there were still plenty of service and ground winners and Stepanek was able to use the net very well against Nadal.I'm not doubting grass is slower than before but it seems to me that they might be exaggerating a bit.
Paris was mostly hot and sunny, like in 1996 when 3 of the 4 semi finalists in the men's singles were serve and volleyers. There's also the fast Babolat balls that were used at the 2011 French Open, to take into account.
Wimbledon has been sun-drenched the last 2 years.They haven't been able to use the new Centre Court roof since it was installed in 2009 (apart from a very brief shower)!
Watching the same matches it appeared slower than I can ever recall, I don't think the players are exaggerating why would they? A player doesn't expect his volleys to bounce up above waist height on grass, yet that is exactly what I saw quite a few times in the Stepanek-Nadal match.
Yeah it figures that just when they get the roof installed, the weather improves.
I only recall the Wimbledon roof being used twice so far, the first because of rain and bad light, and the second one because of bad light.
2009 Wimbledon R16: Andy Murray def. Stanislas Wawrinka (2-6, 6-3, 6-3, 5-7, 6-3) (the whole match)
2010 Wimbledon R128: Novak Djokovic def. Olivier Rochus (4-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2) (sets 4 and 5)
On the opposite side of the spectrum, Nadal will be a grass court specialist because that will be the slowest
but that is the truth lol
Pretty much this.
We have posters telling us to trust the player(karlovic in this case) but when murray and rafa were saying in last uso that WB is one of the fastest surfaces on tour their opinions were dismissed by many TW'ers.
Grass(even slow grass) is one of the few surfaces where serve matters still.
To give an example, Nadal got taken to five in several WB by guys that hit big and/or served big in those matches.
IIRC the first match it was ever used was between Amelie Mauresmo and Dinara Safina that year.
Yeah pretty much, and look at where Nadal is returning and how he is playing vs. at the French. The ball is bouncing way lower at Queen's than it does on clay or hard court. Still gotta find all this talk totally hilarious. If grass was actually slower than clay, Roddick would never win a match.
Ok, so instead of using our own eyes to judge the height of bounce or the players own perceptions, we should judge court pace by how many sets a player can take off Rafa.
I have heard it all now, Rafa is a mathematical tennis constant.
5 Rafa sets= fast pace court
4 Rafa sets= medium pace court
3 Rafa sets= slow pace court
Of course not, but Nadal has a very Borg like pattern in how he wins Roland Garros vs. Wimbledon.
Go look at the scorelines for Borgs French vs. Wimby wins. He would usually breeze through RG with crushing style, and struggle mightily at Wimbledon, with many tight matches and some five setters. Seriously, go look it up. Nadal follows this pattern almost exactly. He's an all around player that is more comfortable on the higher bouncing surfaces, just like Borg. The grass really hasn't changed much. How could it? It's basically just grass. All of the evidence supports the fact that things haven't changed, except for Federer fans crying foul, and a few complaints from players here and there (while the players saying grass is still the fastest surface around are, at the same time, disregarded).
Nameless was simply saying that Nadal had touch matches against guys who were able to serve big at Wimbledon, and that that simply wouldn't be the case anywhere else. It's because grass still rewards big hitting and big serving more than any other surface. It's certainly not difficult to comprehend this.
This homogenization is terrible for the sport. Think how much more exciting it would be if guys like Karlovic, Isner and Roddick actually had chances to make big upsets and win on the grass.
If they're going to try to eliminate the differences between the different surfaces, why not just play all on one surface?
Court pace ratings are determined by the coefficient of friction of the surface and the subsequent height of ball bounce. The composition of the court is of secondary importance.
If the ball is bouncing higher it is not covering the same distance in the same amount of time, it doesn't matter if the surface is made of grass, clay, or hard court. All of these surfaces can be manipulated to play faster or slower by changing the coefficient of friction. Grass is no exception.
One of the reasons there are more aces on grass isn't because it is necessarily faster, some of it is footwork related, it is harder to react and return serve on grass than any other surface. Players can't cut and change direction as quickly on grass.
What's interesting is that for all the hyped up slowing down of the courts, the percentage of service games being held is actually higher at Wimbledon than it was in the 90's.(someone posted stats a while ago comparing the decades) It seems the serve might matter even more than it did when the courts were still lightening quick. How do we explain this?
What homogenization? Those guys DO have chances to make big upsets and win on grass. Did you not see Berdych out slug Federer last year? The grass plays FAR differently from hard courts or clay, it's so totally obvious when you just watch the matches. The points play out so much faster, with greater opportunity for big winners (since they can't be tracked down), more net play, playing closer on the baselines because of the low bounces etc. It's a vastly different game.
I think the "problem" here is Nadal and Federer are so much better than the rest of the crowd overall that they are simply dominating and it LOOKS like the same thing over and over. Sure, they are baseline players, but that has more to do with the evolution of the game. Bigger power and spinnier strokes lead to the styles we have now. If guys were charging the net all the time they are much more likely to have their heads taken off. It just doesn't work as well. This has more to do with the equipment and athleticism in the game, not the surfaces.
For those who think the surfaces are being homogenized, I'd love to see an experiment where you took 1970's clay/hard/grass courts and you blindly compared them to 2010's clay/hard/grass courts and see if you could ever spot the differences in a numerically meaningful fashion. I'd bet my life you couldn't do it. The properties of physical materials do not change in a few decades. Clay is clay, grass is grass, and concrete remains concrete. It is a silly and absurd notion to think otherwise.
ok. the village dunce, tennis & music doesnt trust the word of Ivo Karlovic... he knows best than Dr K...!!!
I've actually played on a world class grass court that they used for Davis Cup (America vs. Chile, played at Mission Hills in Palm Springs). Have you?
I've played on red and green clay courts. Have you?
Furthermore Murray and Nadal say the grass courts are faster than any other court in the world. Are they now dunces? Real smart there Gor.
And in this Roland Garros, Nadal was taken to five "by guys that hit big and/or served big in those matches." That guy in this case was John Isner.
But I guess that doesn't prove anything...
In addition, if serve matters so much for SW19, how does Nadal, whose serve is not one of the best on tour, win so many? Is serve truly a staple on today's grass if no-serve Nadal can win on it?
Have you ever played on a grass court? After the 3rd or 4th time you slip and fall on your behind, you realize you can not cut as quick and need to stay on balance more, moving around the court.
It isn't just speed of the serve, accuracy of the serve is just as important, an accurate serve at the same speed and location on grass is harder to return than it is on a HC, because the player can not cut and react as explosively to get to the ball to return it.
I think players overall serve bigger and more accurately now than 20 years ago, sure there were big servers than, but the average overall probably wasn't as high as it is now.
You're not a pro and you'll never be one, therefore your opinion means as much as nothing. If tens of professionals claim that clay is faster than grass nowadays, who are you to question them?
But if the courts are so much slower than before, and the returning supposedly so much easier these days, then why would the percentage of serve held go UP at Wimbledon since the lightening quick days of the 90's grass. I'm not trying to be facetious, I genuinely want to know what would factor explain this.
you are second best thing that happened to tennis after Rafito. you are the best. btw, did i say that i have been to the moon? have you? i also have been to the center of the world. have you? i have saved Burkina Faso from starvation. have you?
now what the frack you know about what and where have i played to assume that i dont know the speed of different courts? and what does it relate the fact that you know the speed of one specific grass court to the fact that pros everywhere are feeling tired of the slowing down of surfaces?
fyi, i have played in all the most important surfaces - dumbo
Nope, not a pro, but I am experienced. I've hit with a former number 1 US 16's junior (in the womens, that's where the pic in my avatar was from), and held my own just fine. I've played all over. I know how the surfaces play from personal experience.
If Nadal and Murray and several other pros say grass is faster, who are YOU to question them? We should keep these discussions outside the realm of the absurd. Grass is grass, clay is clay. Grass plays fast because of low bounces, not speed through the court necessarily. Clay plays slow because of the high bounces, giving players plenty of time to track shots. It's not rocket science, and it's surely nothing that will change in our lifetimes. Just because one player sends out a sarcastic tweet does not mean physical properties have changed.
sir... i think you have what it takes to beat Federer & Nadal!!!
Overall I think it is safe to say on average players serve bigger now across the board than 20 years ago.
Yeah, even though everything is absolutely identical this year compared to the past (apart from the weather)... Queens Club surface is now slow
Next, people will blame nature for surface homogenization.
Karlovic, meet sour grapes for losing early :lol:
Well considering how many insults you throw around rather than making points, I think it's safe to say I've made my point.
So where have you played? I've played on more than one grass court actually, just that Mission Hills was definitely the best one. Roddick and his crew said it was as good as Wimbledon. Don't get mad at me just because I like to actually talk tennis.
Why, thank you miss!
Erm, didn't Murray comment that the grass was playing very slow at queens?
Yeah he did, but he did say Wimbledon was the fastest major (or maybe it was tournament) last year. The weather has been rainy and cold at Queen's, hence it will be slower.
Isner almost did it against Nadal at the French. That speaks for itself...that clay is where these guy have a better chance than grass. That is sad.....even Ljubo was goating at RG! If you pick your spots on grass it can do well for those guy's serves....but the grass has slowed down even more so than the last few years. Hopefully WImbledon is a diff story!
Dude I saw a few videos that you've posted previously..that girl must have been taking it really easy on you because you looked 4.0 or lower to me lmao...
Grass? Toronto Tennis Club ... HPC..
all the other surfaces, my dear tennis acrobat, i have tried all over from my country to canada, us, domincan, greece, france spain... pretty much everywhere i went for vacations or biz. just that i dont brag about playing former u16 female number ones...
It is the revenge of the baseline players - for taking crap in the times where 3 of 4 slams were played on grass.
Not bragging, she would school me in a match. I'm not all that great. I would be the first to point out where my deficiencies are, but on the other hand I know where my talents are. I'm confident in myself and don't shrink from confrontation or dealing with the truth. Not a big deal. I do like how this gets turned into a T&M attack fest though just because I dare to speak out against the ridiculousness of some of the things said here. :lol:
Another hilarious tweet by Karlovic:
I just learned how to hit a non-slice backhand
That's right, I read that tweet too Suresh. Didn't he tweet it just after he gave Ralph a fright earlier this year?
I've seen that happen on grass since about 2004.Of course the grass is much slower compared to the 90s but I still think said players were exaggerating a bit to prove their point.Grass still rewards aggressive play and big serving more than even FO this year I think.
Here's what Henman said back in 2002:
"I remember sitting at a change-over in 2002 in utter frustration and thinking 'What on earth is going on here? I'm on a grass court and it's the slowest court I've played on this year,” remarked Tim Henman after noticing a difference on his favourite surface that far from favoured his natural game". The link won't post,just take my word for it then.
This is just old news,they screwed up grass long time ago.
Here is what Marat Safin said after beat Djokovic in the first round.
Also, Fed had the same opinion
Yeah,I remember that interview,I think Safin even thanked them for slowing down grass LOL.I miss his interviews,I'd always read his interviews before everyone else's,really was quite a character(along with having a great game).
Interesting,I think Fed said it the best,a combination of many things(overall slower conditions but also a lack of guys who know how to volley as well).My point was though that it is something that has happened quite a while ago,not this year and not even the year Nadal won Wimbledon.There was a conscious effort to slow down the game ever since the early 2000s.
does anyone really deny that grass courts are getting slower? every year for the past decade we've heard tons of pros saying the grass courts are getting slower. its too bad, id like to see more serve and volleying and guys with more offensive, attacking styles put up better results.
Thing is, with technology nowadays, it wouldn't be serve-and-volley.
It would be just serve.
That's the problem. While fast courts favor net play, they ALSO favor guys that just hit the serve and never need to volley because their serve is so good. Faster courts would give you an occasional match with more netplay, at the expense of EVERY OTHER MATCH featuring lots more one-shot points, unreturned serves and aces.
I can see why courts are being slowed down. I wish it could be otherwise, but it's the way it is.
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