Hip vs. Shoulder rotation open stance fh

[Dunlopkid]

I read in Tennis Magazine that all great forehands have a lot more shoulder than hip turn on the open stance. One of the pros I know is always telling the kids to "turn their hips more on that open stance." Is he wrong, partially wrong, right?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The differential between the hips and the torso (shoulders) is important.

For the unit turn using a neutral stance, the hips are turned completely to the side. Just before the forward swing of the racquet commences, the hips are starting to rotate back to toward the net. Shortly after, the torso rotates forward. Thus we see a differential between the hip turn & the torso rotation.

For an open stance, the hips are partially open while the torso is coiled to the side during the preparation phase of the stroke. In this case you start with a differential between the hips and the shoulders (torso). Since the hips start partially open, only a slight hip rotation is required prior to commencing the shoulder turn. Much of the hip rotation that is seen on an open stance FH occurs later in the stroke -- the torso/body rotation pulls the hips around a bit more.

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[Bungalo Bill]

Just make sure you rebalance on both feet (over your left foot) after your shot. Staying too much on the right foot (back foot) can injure your hip over time.

 

[stormholloway]

Logically speaking it seems like the shoulder turn should lead the hip turn, but I think something like this should be more subconscious.

Edit: WRONG.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Logically speaking it seems like the shoulder turn should lead the hip turn, but I think something like this should be more subconscious.

The hips leads the shoulders. This supports the kinetic chain. On some balls the shoulders will be turning because a player cant get their hips into the shot. On these balls you should be moving in because chances are high it will be a short ball. In fact, a savvy player will know this well before their opponent hits the ball!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFibX-inICg&feature=related

 

[stormholloway]

You are correct sir. After doing some mock swings it's obvious the hips lead the shoulders, then the hips uncoil and the shoulders follow. Of course the hips follow the legs. All starts from the base up.

But yeah, you can quasi-exclude the hips from the shot and just use shoulder power if there's no time. You can always exclude from the top down, but never bottom up. You can't just 'leg' a shot, but you can arm one.

I'm going to edit my above post because there's nothing "logical" about it. Everything both loads and uncoils bottom to top.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

You are correct sir. After doing some mock swings it's obvious the hips lead the shoulders, then the hips uncoil and the shoulders follow. Of course the hips follow the legs. All starts from the base up.

But yeah, you can quasi-exclude the hips from the shot and just use shoulder power if there's no time. You can always exclude from the top down, but never bottom up. You can't just 'leg' a shot, but you can arm one.

I'm going to edit my above post because there's nothing "logical" about it. Everything both loads and uncoils bottom to top.

Yup, very true. Your post supports another post I had regarding players needing to learn how to hit the ball with their legs and torso vs. their shoulder turn and arm. If you watch Fernando closely, you can see how his entire swing follows the kinetic chain and the arm is blended in very well and sort of slings forward using what is given to it. There is no "extra" stuff going on.

His swing just follows and compliments what happens below it. Watch the knees, then the hips/torso, then the shoulders, then the arm and followthrough. This is a good clip to watch the kinetic chain happen and uncoil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFibX-inICg&feature=related

 

[stormholloway]

Still think he's too loopy with his take back. Nothing wrong with it necessarily but I prefer a more compact setup. Then again, he's a pro and I'm a guy typing on a computer.

I think most people's problems come from lack of faith in the kinetic chain. They tend to intervene at some point during the uncoiling because they don't trust the technique. I do it too after a long layoff, hence "muscling the ball". I did it today actually. Some part of me simply would not let the racquet swing itself once I set it in motion. It's a mental disease.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Still think he's too loopy with his take back. Nothing wrong with it necessarily but I prefer a more compact setup. Then again, he's a pro and I'm a guy typing on a computer.

Oh yeah, I am with you. I am not big on the "biggness" of the takeback. However, he is able to do so by at least keeping the racquet head on the same side.

I think most people's problems come from lack of faith in the kinetic chain. They tend to intervene at some point during the uncoiling because they don't trust the technique. I do it too after a long layoff, hence "muscling the ball". I did it today actually. Some part of me simply would not let the racquet swing itself once I set it in motion. It's a mental disease.

I dont fault the players. I fault the instruction and coaching. Yes, "swinging itself" is the feel you want. Very good choice of words. It is exactly what players should be working on. Hence, the reason I work on footwork a lot because that is where the action is. The stroke, if done right, just "swings itself".

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Just make sure you rebalance on both feet (over your left foot) after your shot. Staying too much on the right foot (back foot) can injure your hip over time.

This is a very important consideration. I may be wrong, but I believe that hitting with a fully open stance most of the time may be more stressful to the hip (of the back foot) than hitting more often with a partially open stance. The overuse of the open stance is probably the cause of the severe right hip problems experienced by Gustavo Kuerten and Lleyton Hewitt. Some sources also indicate that overuse of a fully-open stance may also place excessive stress on the hitting shoulder for some players.

 

[stormholloway]

Staying too much on the back foot also creates a sense of weakness or excessive defense as well.

I think open stances, true open stances, are over emphasized. I feel they've evolved mainly due to the faster pace of the game but people seem to take to heart that it's the optimal way to hit. I'm just a few degrees more closed than 45 degrees--slightly more closed than open. Feels good.

I agree about the stress on the hitting shoulder as well. It makes perfect sense. in an open stance you have to strain to turn the shoulders that much more.

I also like how a more closed stance carries you into the court.

 

[oldhacker]

Hi Guys - I recently sarted a thread asking a question about the pros and cons of different weight transfer / balance on the forehand but got no responses so I am interested to read this. My thread is at:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=231218

That clip of Gonzo is really interesting. Particularly how 'quiet' his lower body stays through the stroke. His back foot hardly comes off the ground as his body rotates through the shot so there is no airborne jumping going on as you see in so many wannabe big hitters.

I am really working to try to get more lower body (legs /hips) into my forehand. Mind you with my legs and knees I find the back foot plant and depth of the knee bend scary to contemplate. It is interesting that most of the experts on this forum are big advocats of players learning 'ground up' tennis technique from the start. Having now played for 4 years (the first 3 self-taught wrongly - arghh !!) I completely agree but I do not believe it is practcial for most (epsecially time and cash-strapped adult learners) to do so. A level of conditioning and footwork is required to do it which most beginner adults do not possess and so the easier option of using the arm prevails. Also when you start out in a sport you do not know whether it is for you for some time (took me 2 years to get hooked on tennis) so you are unlikely (and most do not have the resources) to invest the time and money early on trying to get good technique.

This is a very important consideration. I may be wrong, but I believe that hitting with a fully open stance most of the time may be more stressful to the hip (of the back foot) than hitting more often with a partially open stance. The overuse of the open stance is probably the cause of the severe right hip problems experienced by Gustavo Kuerten and Lleyton Hewitt. Some sources also indicate that overuse of a fully-open stance may also place excessive stress on the hitting shoulder for some players.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

This is a very important consideration. I may be wrong, but I believe that hitting with a fully open stance most of the time may be more stressful to the hip (of the back foot) than hitting more often with a partially open stance. The overuse of the open stance is probably the cause of the severe right hip problems experienced by Gustavo Kuerten and Lleyton Hewitt. Some sources also indicate that overuse of a fully-open stance may also place excessive stress on the hitting shoulder for some players.

You probably know this already but sometimes we forget. Send the feeling of turning the shoulders with your students down more in the core muscles. We need to get students to feel their shot more down in the stomach. Obviously, core training helps a lot here and with the added emphasis of feeling your hit in the stomach and legs, it helps reduce strain in the shoulder. A player does not need much in the core to help here. Also, it supports relaxed angular momentum.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Hi Guys - I recently sarted a thread asking a question about the pros and cons of different weight transfer / balance on the forehand but got no responses so I am interested to read this. My thread is at:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=231218

That clip of Gonzo is really interesting. Particularly how 'quiet' his lower body stays through the stroke. His back foot hardly comes off the ground as his body rotates through the shot so there is no airborne jumping going on as you see in so many wannabe big hitters.

Note the threads above. You want to rebalance on your left foot after contact. So you should be rising off your back foot for your main technique in the open stance forehand. Watch this clip and note how Federer shifts his weight back towards his left foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31IYa7VsZYg&feature=related

Use your angular momentum to help you do this so it is in sync with your effort. Doing this is sort of like what Storm Holloway indicated, "the racquet needs to take care of itself." I think I said that right. Well in this case let your momentum carry you back over to your left while not overrotating out of the shot.