Hitting across

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by 5263, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I do not think anyone did so. At least 5263 said
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  2. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Could be.
    You do not know that.
     
  3. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    You do not shy away from making up stuff do you? Anyway, it has been an interesting thread about hitting across.
     
  4. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I try to view this as not a competitive environment, but more of a friendly hitting one. You know, a cyber community of people of similar intrests or something like that?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
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  5. mightyrick

    mightyrick Legend

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    Exactly. Some think this is a competitive environment (especially with all of the "chest-thumping"), but it really isn't. In a truly competitive environment, there is money and/or points on the line. Team wins/losses. But it would take a lot for me to play a person with a truly competitive attitude in a friendly environment.

    But don't get me wrong, I have played with people who treat every match like they have money on it. These kind of people will also frequently end up throwing racquets, cussing madly, hitting balls violently after a miss, or simply walking off the court.

    The times that I have played those types of people... and they start that kind of behavior... I usually just walk to the net, offer my handshake, and resign. I don't really enjoy the company of those kinds of people.
     
  6. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Laver is incredibly humble in my observations. I was impressed that upon his winning the Grand Slam in '62, he turns pro, finds out he is getting his butt kicked, then goes back to his childhood coach Charlie Hollis to work on getting better. He even went to Pancho Segura for lessons. Listen to his comments one year after winning the '69 Grand Slam, after losing to 40 year plus old Pancho Gonzalez in the 1970 $10K challenge winner take all match and you realize what a gracious human being he was.
     
  7. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    I was a Braden worshiper before I moved to working with Oscar for twelve years and Oscar and I no longer associate so if I defend him after I moved beyond MTM, it's because of what the evidence indicates. I have all of Braden's works. I know what he printed and it was he in front of me and at least 80 other coaches at least who said he and Harold Broady's research would likely prove Wegner's recently published 1992 book and it's claims wrong. I thus ignored Wegner for ten years and continued to struggle as a coach and player. Vic may have taught topspin, as did all coaches, but it's interesting that in the early 1970s, Braden was one of the advisory board members for the Classic Instruction Series written by Jack Kramer and they advised not to hit like the best forehands of the day, such as Tom Okker, and Bjorn Borg. That book alone published from 1973 to 1975 probably set back USA tennis instruction 30 years and we are finally catching up.
     
  8. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Teaches,
    Why won't Wegner talk to you?
     
  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have volunteered at his wife's memorial tournament and talked to him in person.
     
  10. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Sure I do. I read the thread before commenting and saw that it disintegrated into arguing. Pretty simple stuff.
     
  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I understand you like to think you speak for "most" but most people realize they rather think and speak for themselves. I get quite a few emails and pm's from posters and even those who don't care to post, who comment on my patience with some of the regulars.
     
  12. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes you always get these amazing letters of praise and support that no one ever sees but you. And you never start theads to instigate fights or have used dupe accounts so you have artificial backing in your arguments.

    This same old charade happens every year and you are always fighting with someone. I guess you are just the persecuted good samaritan here.
     
  13. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    Seriously man, you need to chill a bit. WTF are you even talking about? OP is about a technical issue and you are claiming some big conspiracy? The people obsessing about MTM and Oscar are Roger and you.
     
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  14. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    Maybe because we have seen videos of tlm and videos of you in your basement demonstrating your 3.5 FH.
     
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I made no such implications, but did you really mis-read it that way or .....are you just creating another diversion from the unfortunate truth that haunts you? Like MTM or not, Gordon's finding couldn't have described the central issue of the MTM instruction any better than he did in that video. It is what it is, in this case and will be hard for you to spin. Have you not been able to have the USPTA vid taken from youtube yet? Don't waste your effort because we have it backed up a couple of times since we know how things tend to just disappear when they don't fit the agenda.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I really wish you guys could stick to truth and facts so I don't get sucked in to looking like I'm defending MTM. Then again, maybe you guys are the spies for MTM, throwing out lame mistakes knowing they will bring out posters to correct the facts and thereby, promoting Oscar on the sly.....ah ha....you guys have been caught!
     
  17. mightyrick

    mightyrick Legend

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    I think the point has been beaten to death. As I've said before, I've been beaten by people who have worse looking strokes than I do, and I've beaten people who have better looking strokes than me. Speaking about matches in competition. The look of a stroke doesn't matter much.

    For example, I certainly didn't criticize "white hat" in that Oscar video. Regardless of how ugly his forehand is, if he is match-experienced, he might be able to beat 90% of the people here.
     
  18. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Yeah you better back it up...I don't try to get you tube videos taken down unless they use my footage. Stupidity is not a reason.
     
  19. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    You know how it appears to you, not how it appears to most people here, imo.
     
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  20. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    John Yandell and Suresh as a false flag operation, nah. Luckily I am no conspirationist.
     
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  21. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    [​IMG]

    wanted to post this here too. I think you can see pretty clearly how the spin is generated and that the Hand already goes slightly inward but the head actually travels outward to contact and doesn't go across or over the ball.

    eventually the finish will go across but mostly after the ball has left the strings, the spin is still created by vertical bathead movement.
     
  22. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    It differs a bit according to how low the ball is hit. But still racket head snap/speed is aided by across/upward pull/swing. Across factor is clearer in the later/higher shots in the video.
     
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  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    then why in the frame after contact is the ball looking lower and more near the end of the frame? Doesn't that show the direction the racket has traveled in that brief frame of reference. Even with the ball rising from contact, the racket has risen more as well as it has followed that hand across.
     
  24. Service Ace

    Service Ace Hall of Fame

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    Not sure what the 12 pages of discussion is about but in no way, shape or form do pros hit "across" the ball. Just as demonstrated in the gif, your racquet head should approach the ball in a straight line from behind the path of the incoming ball. The spin is coming only from the angle of the racquet face at contact (and the velocity at which it arrives there). The "vertical movement" you think is creating the spin is actually just the racquet flipping through the contact zone as a natural byproduct of the grip & a correct swing path.
     
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  25. Pete Player

    Pete Player Semi-Pro

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    I don’t quite aggree. Where the hand needs to be going, if the racket angle; the shaft changes from butt end towards the ball into perpendicular at impact, if the string bed is approaching the ball in a straight line from behind?


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    On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
     
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  26. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Conspiracist.
     
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  27. Service Ace

    Service Ace Hall of Fame

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    Not quite sure I understand. You should be able to draw a straight line from the path of your swing to the point of impact. The wrist only acts as a hinge allowing the racquet head to store energy during the lag moment in your swing path and then to release it at and through contact. Whatever happens after contact is immaterial to the outcome of shot and what most perceive as brushing/vertical movement is actually just the denouement of the last second adjustment pros make to ensure their racquet face angle is how they want it right at impact. It's hard to conceptualize because of how much the racquet moves before it reaches the beginning and end of it's phase but the reality is the head still needs to travel in a straight line towards contact and it is probably best illustrated in this side angle view:



    Hitting "across" the ball would imply a swing path involving the racquet travelling from right to left when in actuality you want the racquet coming from directly behind the ball (as seen above) with the squaring of the racquet happening at impact. And it's only logical as what sense would it make to try to return a low slice with your racquet coming across your body? It'd be like trying to get a plane off the ground by getting up to speed on a level surface and than blasting straight up as if it were a rocket or helicopter. Rather, just like a plane gaining lift and taking off, your racquet needs to approach the ball in the same linear path as the ball is coming towards you. The spin is created merely by a combination of the velocity and the racquet face angle at the point of collision.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  28. Old Skool Graphite

    Old Skool Graphite Rookie

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    Bottom line: everyone on Talk Tennis is an expert until it comes time to actually show footage of themselves hitting. Then it's crickets...

    The people that post the most on Tips and Instructions typically have zero evidence to support their claims and most likely don't even play tennis.
     
  29. Pete Player

    Pete Player Semi-Pro

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    There is a fair chance, the metaphora has been understood and spoken out wrong all these years.

    @Sevice Ace is talking of swing path as of the racket face path. However while the racket is pulled from the handle from back swing, the hand path is a lot closer to the racket face watching from behind, than at the impact, because of the cosine of the lag angle goes from ~ 180 to 90° at impact and equals 1, which is the equivalent of fist distance to the sweet spot at impact. In common language, the racket is perpendicular to the direction, where you’re hitting the ball, which launches off the racket face. (Omitting the closed/open and head up/down orientation).

    Initially the hand moves in front of the face quite much towards the ball parallel to each other. However at the release the directions divert as hand path turns inside the ball and racket face continues towards the ball.

    As a conclusion, you hit across to the inside with your hand and racket releases out relative to the divertinfg hand, onto the ball.


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    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  30. dennis

    dennis Rookie

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    if you hit across the ball, wouldn't it bounce to the left when it landed? And curve sideways in flight? Or is 'hitting across' just a teaching cue?

     
  31. Pete Player

    Pete Player Semi-Pro

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    I’m gonna get torched for this, but Wegner is telling to hit across to your left (righthander) with a lagged racket. The swipe on the ball would then be right to left, not the other way around.

    That Goffin passing shot and Nadal’s bananas are hitting across to the outside on the run. On more stationary, towards the target shots they change the face orientation to be perpendicular to the target and the swipe is more upwards than sideways, while the hand stil moves from behind the ball to the inside.

    My understanding on the hitting across is, that it is a teaching cue - not to be taken litterally, which results more rhs, if the racket is not forced to the out to in path and orientated to the same direction as the hand is moving.

    Pulling back is another cue, that falls into the probably most missinterpreted cues there is. The basis for that to be sort of true lies in the physics and geometry of the racket path and acceleration of the racket head relative to the hand and wrist.


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  32. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    It will curve to the right, but bounce slightly to the left. You can see it happening on this beautiful training session with Federer:

    But, on shots hit low, the racket head will be moving more outwards, regardless of any pull across/inwards by the hand. Because of hitting in the lower part of the arc of the racket (below 3 o'clock). Typical of on the run banana shots.
    So, height of contact matters, also in what direction hand, and racket head are moving at impact.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I do admit to using some bait to lure the Oskies in, especially when the place gets boring.
     
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  34. Tennisanity

    Tennisanity Legend

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    And whose fault is that Mr I don't shoot videos?????????
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Hitting across is exactly what causes the curve in flight, just like a curveball pitch in baseball...and before the torches come out....this isn't particularly a MTM thing.

    In the example you give, how else would the ball make that curve without some side spin? And where would the side spin come from except hitting across. You can hit across 2 ways and the one you shared there I call a "draw", like with golf. You can spin it the other way and hit the "fade". Both shots require a type of hitting across to get the spin for that effect. Often it is very slight and unnoticeable when the intent is more about topspin or power, but here, the player accentuated "the across" for the required bend to save this shot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  36. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I would say that hitting on the run, closed stance, perhaps a bit late, with the ball at your feet, it is is hard to play anything but a draw/hook. Which luckily is just what you need for a down the line pass. But agree it can then be accentuated by the player.
     

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