Hitting below the sweetspot - Optimum Contact Point for groundstroke

[drakulie]

I was writing about off center hits and the like and saying that I really question anyone suggesting that its preferable to strike the ball off of this center axis.

and I already agrred with you. Please read.

I was also discussing the "sweet spot" which for someone must be a sensitive area to get into. I think that in Oscar's book (at least the original one) there is very little discussion of it. I think the racquet folks, especially at Prince and Wilson, have used it to market their products. I'm familiar with both of these companies, at least to a limited degree, and I believe they are the ones to suggest that the "sweet spot" keeps getting bigger - look it sell more racquets because it gives you a greater margin for error. Suggesting the entire racquet is the "sweet spot" is just plain nonsense and I think everyone would realize that.

One of Oscar's books suggest that the entire string bed of a frame is the "MODERN SWEET SPOT". I have already repeatedly stated in this thread and others this information is entirely false.

what are you not following????

 

[Power Player]

Your post is very honest. I like that you pointed out for the many readers here and said it is a risky move.

It certainly is a riskly move and the reason why is because if you are swinging and using the WW motion, you have two vectors mainly that are contributing to that. First you generally have your upward swing. Then you have your motion of the WW.. When you attempt to raise the racquet and raise the head in a violent very fast swing, you risk mishitting, or just missing the ball and sending into the net. Sometimes you just hit a lot of short balls because you skimmed the ball.

To complicate this more, if a player has grown accustomed to overhitting, overrotating, or has other technical flaws in their stroke, you magnify the risk of erroring.

Players need to go for consistency. Maybe more advanced players like you can manage this on a more consistent basis. However, if hitting the ball sqaure were such a problem, we would have ditched this a long time ago. The truth is (and I provided evidence for this) is pros do not think about hitting below the center of the racquet, they just simply hit the ball.

I would agree 100% with what you said. In fact I never thought about this too much myself except for noticing ball marks on strings. I also notice that some of my best shots felt like I hit them lower on the bed, but there is no way to ever prove this.

I actually have worked on hitting the ball more square because I simply come over the ball too much sometimes and it frames or I get lucky due to trajectory and spin and I get it to drop in. My main strokes are a driving, flatter topspin shot and a deeper forehand that gives me good net clearance and lets me reset a point when needed. After a lot of practice, working on weight transfer and footwork, I have noticed a lot more consistency in my strokes. It was not pretty for a while though, I can assure you of that.

Michael Chang, I was a junior tennis player. Played from 8 to around 15 years of age and was a USTA tourney player and team tennis player from 12-15. I quit and pursued other interests until getting my game back this year. I never really had great coaching, but I did take clinics and played about 6 hours a day. I basically taught myself the topspin forehand and was using a western grip from an early age simply because it felt right. My team coaches said I had great strokes and would be a college player, but never helped me really develop them. Because of this I would do a lot of brushing the ball weak shots and basically was playing off raw talent with no knowledge of how to develop a great consistent swing..so I quit after getting frustrated wih the game, knowing I could do better, but not knowing how to do it.

 

[MichaelChang]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Solat]

does this mean that if we gave a pro a freshly stenciled wilson racquet and they were only allowed to hold it one way up that they would wear off the lower part of the W not the centre part like I do?

 

[dParis]

In the book he provides a photo of a volkl frame, and he outlines the ENTIRE STRING BED as the "Modern Sweet Spot".

Of course, we all know he is dead wrong, as there is no such racquet that the entire string bed is a sweet spot.

But if there were, it would be a Volkl.:wink:

You people in this thread are crazy, and now you're making me crazy as well!!! I wish I never opened this thread. I hope to Jah that the next time I play, I'm not thinking about what fraction of the sweet spot I'm hitting. Otherwise, I'm hitting you guys up to pay for my Sports Psychologist.

 

[drakulie]

does this mean that if we gave a pro a freshly stenciled wilson racquet and they were only allowed to hold it one way up that they would wear off the lower part of the W not the centre part like I do?

Yes, this is what Oscar is claiming the pros do, and what he would refer to as "modern/reovlutionary" tennis coaching. (which he invented) :roll:

 

[Sublime]

does this mean that if we gave a pro a freshly stenciled wilson racquet and they were only allowed to hold it one way up that they would wear off the lower part of the W not the centre part like I do?

I think he's saying the \ part of the W would be worn off.

 

[Power Player]

The point is to feel it, not to think about it.

 

[dozu]

this has to be the most stupid thread of all-time.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

The point is to feel it, not to think about it.

The point is to understand it, practice it, develop it, and master it. Feel just grows along the way. You have to understand what to feel before you know how to feel. The "how" is part of the development cycle and requires the use of your brain to obtain the information needed to perform.

 

[Power Player]

Yeah. I think I skipped that step when I was a junior..lol.

 

[yessir]

So after 11 years guys it seems that Oscar was right and all of you were completely clueless or we are seeing 11 minutes of the best players in the world consistently miss hitting on purpose during practise ROFL

 

[ChaelAZ]

So after 11 years guys it seems that Oscar was right and all of you were completely clueless or we are seeing 11 minutes of the best players in the world consistently miss hitting on purpose during practise ROFL

11 years of a grudge with a thread. Man....

 

[yessir]

11 years of a grudge with a thread. Man....

I just checked the thread out , and oh man 90% in this forum dont know what they are talking about

 

[user92626]

So after 11 years guys it seems that Oscar was right and all of you were completely clueless or we are seeing 11 minutes of the best players in the world consistently miss hitting on purpose during practise ROFL

 

[TheIntrovert]

Lmao no. Nonsense

 

[ChaelAZ]

I just checked the thread out , and oh man 90% in this forum dont know what they are talking about

Sure. Whatever you need to tell yourself.


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[pencilcheck]

This is a very old thread, can someone summarize what this thread is arguing about that is worth arguing 11 years later??

 

[Shroud]

So after 11 years guys it seems that Oscar was right and all of you were completely clueless or we are seeing 11 minutes of the best players in the world consistently miss hitting on purpose during practise ROFL

whatever dude:

 

[Shroud]

This is a very old thread, can someone summarize what this thread is arguing about that is worth arguing 11 years later??

basically Oscar Wegner says that the pros hit on the bottom half of the racquet. That they aim there. This vid was supposed to show that, but lol the quality was pretty bad and lots of shots are hitting the center but because of the vertical swing of the racquet, sliding of the strings and the ball falling down it APPEARS that its hitting the bottom but I posted a pict from the "proof" vid and you can see Murray hitting in the dead center. The ones before that were inconclusive because of the video quality. Its basically bad video quality and paralytic errors combined with a theory.

But do try to aim for the bottom of the stringbed and report here. Also go to a tournament and ask the stringer to look at the wear patterns and see the off center patterns...

 

[Shroud]

 

[TennisDawg]

Nice videos! So, so perused that interesting discussion. It was mostly a discussion of topspin shots. I don’t know why a player would want to hit below the sweet spot for topspin. It could be due to the way a pro hits that results in unintentionally hitting it there. So, does this also apply to hitting a kick serve? And this brings up another question on slicing the ball. Are we then saying that pros aim above the sweet spot for slicing the ball on ground strokes? What are the advantages for hitting off center? It would be great if we were able to see the wear pattern on the strings of these pro players. For me this is mostly academic as I still struggle with the basics of tennis.

 

[Shroud]

Nice videos! So, so perused that interesting discussion. It was mostly a discussion of topspin shots. I don’t know why a player would want to hit below the sweet spot for topspin. It could be due to the way a pro hits that results in unintentionally hitting it there. So, does this also apply to hitting a kick serve? And this brings up another question on slicing the ball. Are we then saying that pros aim above the sweet spot for slicing the ball on ground strokes? What are the advantages for hitting off center? It would be great if we were able to see the wear pattern on the strings of these pro players. For me this is mostly academic as I still struggle with the basics of tennis.

no one is intentionally trying to hit off center. Don't do it.

 

[tlm]

Here are some forehands of Fed practicing. It looks like he hit all but one slightly below the center line. If you notice how the racket twists quickly right after contact. That is a direct result of hitting lower on the string bed.

 

[tlm]

no one is intentionally trying to hit off center. Don't do it.

I agree I don’t think it’s good advise to try and hit below center. But look at Fed above in the video I posted, he hits the majority of those shots slightly below center.

 

[pencilcheck]

I agree I don’t think it’s good advise to try and hit below center. But look at Fed above in the video I posted, he hits the majority of those shots slightly below center.

I think no one can perfectly hit clean all the time, in fact pros all hit the best that they can. I don’t think they can really or want to hit off sweet spot

 

[Shroud]

Here are some forehands of Fed practicing. It looks like he hit all but one slightly below the center line. If you notice how the racket twists quickly right after contact. That is a direct result of hitting lower on the string bed.

The video quality is not good enough to be conclusive. Fed is a bad example because his string bed is soft and snappy. So the ball digs in and as the racquet travels it might look like contact but the video is not good enough to know if its initial contact or end contact where the ball has slid down.

I posted some screen shots from the other video posted here that is supposed to be proof and the quality there is enough to see initial contact.

 

[tlm]

The video quality is not good enough to be conclusive. Fed is a bad example because his string bed is soft and snappy. So the ball digs in and as the racquet travels it might look like contact but the video is not good enough to know if its initial contact or end contact where the ball has slid down.

I posted some screen shots from the other video posted here that is supposed to be proof and the quality there is enough to see initial contact.

The racket twisting right after contact is proof the contact was below center. I do agree that sometimes it appears the ball is sliding down in the string bed some.

 

[tlm]

I think no one can perfectly hit clean all the time, in fact pros all hit the best that they can. I don’t think they can really or want to hit off sweet spot

I agree not even pro players can hit perfectly all the time. But do you really think that Fed in a relaxed practice is going to miss hit the ball that many times?

 

[Shroud]

The racket twisting right after contact is proof the contact was below center. I do agree that sometimes it appears the ball is sliding down in the string bed some.

Not necessarily. The ball is typically falling and the racquet is moving up typically. With contact dead center under those conditions the racquet will twist too because the racquet face is slightly closed.

Anyhow here are wear picts:

Keep in mind too that in these picts the W is not exactly centered and if you look at it these picts and take this into account that wear pattern is consistent with center wear pattern.

Also if this was true the stringer would know there is an off center wear pattern. Fed uses string savers but the pattern is center of the racquet and a bit toward the top. Certainly those savers would be offcenter if that was the contact pattern.

Its kind of like putting a stick in water and thinking it actually bends. SUre it looks like it but the stick doesn't bend.

You really need high frame rate video that isn't destroyed by uploading to youtube and good luck getting that. THough Yandell has it I think and IIRC he says they don't hit off center intentionally.

 

[sureshs]

I agree not even pro players can hit perfectly all the time. But do you really think that Fed in a relaxed practice is going to miss hit the ball that many times?

In topspin, racket moves low to high. If the ball is taken slightly after reaching its apex, on the downward path, as is common for topspin, and even if it is taken literally "on the rise," the upward racket movement will create a depression on the strings at contact which bulges towards the bottom, and the ball will then slide a minuscule distance down the strings due to gravity, and will appear to be at a position lower than the center.

It is very difficult in normal play to deliberately hit slightly lower than center.

 

[tlm]

The racket twisting right after contact is proof the contact was below center.

In topspin, racket moves low to high. If the ball is taken slightly after reaching its apex, on the downward path, as is common for topspin, and even if it is taken literally "on the rise," the upward racket movement will create a depression on the strings at contact which bulges towards the bottom, and the ball will then slide a minuscule distance down the strings due to gravity, and will appear to be at a position lower than the center.

It is very difficult in normal play to deliberately hit slightly lower than center.

I never said that any player deliberately hits below center.

 

[TennisDawg]

Here are some forehands of Fed practicing. It looks like he hit all but one slightly below the center line. If you notice how the racket twists quickly right after contact. That is a direct result of hitting lower on the string bed.

It looks to me like he’s contacting the ball more towards the top of the frame. I would love to talk to his stringer. The best evidence would be the wear pattern on his strings. I still don’t understand why Federer would want to deliberately hit off center

 

[tlm]

It looks to me like he’s contacting the ball more towards the top of the frame. I would love to talk to his stringer. The best evidence would be the wear pattern on his strings. I still don’t understand why Federer would want to deliberately hit off center

We are discussing the contact point of the horizontal part of the string bed, not from throat to top of hoop. I agree though that the contact point looks to be closer to the top of the frame also.

 

[tlm]

Not necessarily. The ball is typically falling and the racquet is moving up typically. With contact dead center under those conditions the racquet will twist too because the racquet face is slightly closed.

Anyhow here are wear picts:

Keep in mind too that in these picts the W is not exactly centered and if you look at it these picts and take this into account that wear pattern is consistent with center wear pattern.

Also if this was true the stringer would know there is an off center wear pattern. Fed uses string savers but the pattern is center of the racquet and a bit toward the top. Certainly those savers would be offcenter if that was the contact pattern.

Its kind of like putting a stick in water and thinking it actually bends. SUre it looks like it but the stick doesn't bend.

You really need high frame rate video that isn't destroyed by uploading to youtube and good luck getting that. THough Yandell has it I think and IIRC he says they don't hit off center intentionally.

I thought we were discussing topspin forehands not backhand slices.

 

[pencilcheck]

I agree not even pro players can hit perfectly all the time. But do you really think that Fed in a relaxed practice is going to miss hit the ball that many times?

Btw, if you really tried hitting slightly off sweet spot you should feel the torque. And it should feel very familiar as it is the same as those mishits. That’s why some low level players keeps spraying and can’t hit consistently because they don’t hit the sweet spot consistently.

 

[TheIntrovert]

You guys really are selling yourself short if you believe and follow this nonsense. This is a pure case of people trying to find some sort of magic short cut instead of focusing on the basics. It’s such a massive problem. You’re focusing too much on on the minute little details the pros themselves don’t know about, and in the process of finding these small tricks, you’re misrepresenting vids and info.
There is no secret. You don’t want to hit the ball anywhere but the dead centre. Simple.

 

[tennisbike]

A teacher may use whatever idea to make the student learn. Let's say looking at a number line from 0 to 10. You want to go to 5, but missed you are at 7. So the instruction says to go toward 0. Though 0 isn't what the target is, the direction go toward 0 may take the student to 5.

There are ideas or imageries that meant to help people play. But those idea are prompts, trigger point, often not reality. Different people need different prompts in different time in their development stages. If you treat these prompts like physical laws or something factual, then there is a problem. We sometimes are confused between ideas/beliefs and facts.

Let's all keep an open mind. And assume positive intent.

 

[tlm]

Btw, if you really tried hitting slightly off sweet spot you should feel the torque. And it should feel very familiar as it is the same as those mishits. That’s why some low level players keeps spraying and can’t hit consistently because they don’t hit the sweet spot consistently.

What miss hits are you talking about? I’m not advocating trying to hit off center just pointing out that that video of Fed shows him hitting most of those forehands slightly lower than the center. Do you really think that Fed miss hit that many shots in an easy hit around?

 

[tlm]

You guys really are selling yourself short if you believe and follow this nonsense. This is a pure case of people trying to find some sort of magic short cut instead of focusing on the basics. It’s such a massive problem. You’re focusing too much on on the minute little details the pros themselves don’t know about, and in the process of finding these small tricks, you’re misrepresenting vids and info.
There is no secret. You don’t want to hit the ball anywhere but the dead centre. Simple.

What is misrepresented in the video’s? I for one am not saying to not shoot for the sweet spot, of course you should try to hit in the middle of the string bed. There is no magic shortcut that I know of. I think the reason I have seen many slow motion videos of pro players hitting slightly below center is just a product of their swing, not an intentional effort to hit the ball off center.

 

[TennisDawg]

I thought we were discussing topspin forehands not backhand slices.

T

You guys really are selling yourself short if you believe and follow this nonsense. This is a pure case of people trying to find some sort of magic short cut instead of focusing on the basics. It’s such a massive problem. You’re focusing too much on on the minute little details the pros themselves don’t know about, and in the process of finding these small tricks, you’re misrepresenting vids and info.
There is no secret. You don’t want to hit the ball anywhere but the dead centre. Simple.

I don’t think that many are looking to try this on the court. It’s just an interesting discussion at least a lot of us find it interesting, nothing wrong that. I don’t know whether or not pros know about it or not, they play at a dimension that us mere mortals will never fully grasp.

 

[Happi]

Does TW sell such a modern racquet with a modern sweetspot that extends to all the mains? I would like to buy one.

Here you go

Sergetti | Tennis stringing method that optimizes the performance of your racquet

By using the Sergetti stringing process, you will optimize the performance of your tennis racquet by increasing its sweet spot size.

sergetti.com

 

[Shroud]

I thought we were discussing topspin forehands not backhand slices.

I wrote “anyhow here are wear picts” before the picts

Look at the wear pattern. They show center hits

 

[tlm]

I wrote “anyhow here are wear picts” before the picts

Look at the wear pattern. They show center hits

Oh okay but from that one picture I can’t see the wear pattern. I see some string savers up higher on the stringbed but can’t tell if they are worn out more.

 

[rogerroger917]

Mtm advocates trying to hit below center.

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[sureshs]

Mtm advocates trying to hit below center.

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Can you expand on that?

 

[rogerroger917]

Can you expand on that?

Hit the ball on the bottom half for more top spin. I just got my mtm certificate

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[Shroud]

Oh okay but from that one picture I can’t see the wear pattern. I see some string savers up higher on the stringbed but can’t tell if they are worn out more.

Please re read my post. The wear pattern is not in THAT pict but it IS in the others. The pict with the string savers was to show their location which if you look is set up for a center impact pattern. My point is that if the wear was somehow off center, the string savers would not be where they are either in terms of affecting the feel and performance or saving on wear.

 

[5263]

basically Oscar Wegner says that the pros hit on the bottom half of the racquet. That they aim there.

but quoting him in this thread from page 1......

And that is the secret. Even though players may not know it consciously, they most likely feel it and learn it from experience.

 

[sureshs]

but quoting him in this thread from page 1......

He also says:

It is much better to hit closer to the edge, especially on groundstrokes.