Hitting flatter and a bit higher mph as I age?

[haqq777]

Hi folk,

So I went to a Playsight court and some of the numbers I saw were a bit fascinating. Cutting long story short, I am hitting considerably flatter, and with a few more mph on ground strokes as compared to numbers from a few years back.

My background: former South Central Div II player, currently in my mid 30s. Still hit with local DII team players and their coach who was also a former college player. I can keep up with them although last few months I have barely been hanging on in sets and point play. I like to think that is because of multiple injuries but it could be that my game is sliding. At 35, I am not too worried about losing bit to young college kids anyhow. Anyway, I weigh 170-172lbs (was 160 when I played college tennis) and 5'9.

Could the flatter strokes be because I played non stop on indoor courts all through the winter? Balls are faster and surface super quick in my indoor facilities. The whole spin game just is not fruitful there. So maybe I adapted to that. But then I asked a couple of guys I hit with whole of last year and they mentioned that my game has definitely leaned towards flatter hitting since last year or two - which makes me think it just isn't the few months of winter that I played indoors.

So I guess what I am trying to figure out is that my game evolving to more flatter strokes, is it because of fitness (or lack thereof), or cutting point shorts? I played as an aggressive baseliner for as far as I can remember and my game has started becoming a bit more all court recently I noticed. Or is that a general trend - that as you age you start hitting more flatter as your racquet head speed goes down and you try to compensate by hitting flatter and a bit harder?

Finally, one last bit is that my grip is the same. Modern eastern (think Fed, not the conservative eastern but more towards semiwesten) and backhand is easter OHBH.

Thanks for all your thoughts/feedback.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

i can see that.
flatter strokes reward you on hard/fast surfaces.
my game has gotten spinnier, since i play mostly on clay these days (really hard to hit through people because the ball slows down so much, compared to slick outdoor haven't been surfaced in 10y public courts).

 

[Morch Us]

All of the below.

As you age, you know "unconsciously" that you cannot grind with the younger kids from baseline, and you develop a sense of accuracy. Yes, heavy loopy shots can be accurate, but flat is more "pinpoint" and you find from random points that you better take that risk to not get bullied at baseline.

And yes, definitely playing indoor courts helped that habit.

And yes, you are starting to take a slightly more risk to cut points a bit more shorter (gradual habit developed from point play results), and also your finesse increase when you adjust your game for that, and that probably explains more allcourt and more volley game.

In a way I think these are good adaptations. Do you see any issue with it? Obviously in the end the younger & better players are going to win against you, but I guess you are not too worried about it, and accepted that fact already.

I am hitting considerably flatter, and with a few more mph on ground strokes as compared to numbers from a few years back

I played non stop on indoor courts all through the winter

cutting point shorts?

as you age you start hitting more flatter as your racquet head speed goes down and you try to compensate by hitting flatter and a bit harder?

 

[haqq777]

i can see that.
flatter strokes reward you on hard/fast surfaces.
my game has gotten spinnier, since i play mostly on clay these days (really hard to hit through people because the ball slows down so much, compared to slick outdoor haven't been surfaced in 10y public courts).

Oh absolutely, on clay I can definitely see game evolving to a more spin game (granted fitness is high and willingness to grind it out is there). Our hard courts are medium-fast and relatively newly surfaced university courts so definitely not as slick as you explained. And definitely slower than rubber/synthetic based indoor courts. Though I am sure if a regular clay court player played there he would find them fast. Thanks for the thoughts/feedback

 

[haqq777]

All of the below.

As you age, you know "unconsciously" that you cannot grind with the younger kids from baseline, and you develop a sense of accuracy. Yes, heavy loopy shots can be accurate, but flat is more "pinpoint" and you find from random points that you better take that risk to not get bullied at baseline.

And yes, definitely playing indoor courts helped that habit.

And yes, you are starting to take a slightly more risk to cut points a bit more shorter (gradual habit developed from point play results), and also your finesse increase when you adjust your game for that, and that probably explains more allcourt and more volley game.

In a way I think these are good adaptations. Do you see any issue with it? Obviously in the end the younger & better players are going to win against you, but I guess you are not too worried about it, and accepted that fact already.

Thanks for the detailed and succinct reply. Definitely makes sense to me. I especially like your point about gradual habit developed from point play etc. In the end I feel these are some welcome changes to my game. Just wasn't sure about if that's a normal evolution. Cheers.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

Were your strings the same and the same age both times?

 

[zalive]

Were your strings the same and the same age both times?

Don't forget the racquet too

 

[J011yroger]

Were your strings the same and the same age both times?

Only on TW lol.

J

 

[bitcoinoperated]

Only on TW lol.

J

New vs dead poly is going to play very different. OP posted no numbers either.

 

[Sardines]

Hi folk,

So I went to a Playsight court and some of the numbers I saw were a bit fascinating. Cutting long story short, I am hitting considerably flatter, and with a few more mph on ground strokes as compared to numbers from a few years back.

My background: former South Central Div II player, currently in my mid 30s. Still hit with local DII team players and their coach who was also a former college player. I can keep up with them although last few months I have barely been hanging on in sets and point play. I like to think that is because of multiple injuries but it could be that my game is sliding. At 35, I am not too worried about losing bit to young college kids anyhow. Anyway, I weigh 170-172lbs (was 160 when I played college tennis) and 5'9.

Could the flatter strokes be because I played non stop on indoor courts all through the winter? Balls are faster and surface super quick in my indoor facilities. The whole spin game just is not fruitful there. So maybe I adapted to that. But then I asked a couple of guys I hit with whole of last year and they mentioned that my game has definitely leaned towards flatter hitting since last year or two - which makes me think it just isn't the few months of winter that I played indoors.

So I guess what I am trying to figure out is that my game evolving to more flatter strokes, is it because of fitness (or lack thereof), or cutting point shorts? I played as an aggressive baseliner for as far as I can remember and my game has started becoming a bit more all court recently I noticed. Or is that a general trend - that as you age you start hitting more flatter as your racquet head speed goes down and you try to compensate by hitting flatter and a bit harder?

Finally, one last bit is that my grip is the same. Modern eastern (think Fed, not the conservative eastern but more towards semiwesten) and backhand is easter OHBH.

I'm a former college player, with a similar game to you, but older than you. I think if anyone is advanced enough, the game adapts and compensates to what is needed, against the ones you hit with most. Even from my tennis academy days, the game was transitioning to more and more topspin. I went into the academy a flatter hitter and came out with more topspin and variety, by the time I got to college, because I needed it to get better.
However, if you're saying this new "evolution" isn't a winning strategy, then I'd say your game is merely deteriorating either from lack of practice or injuries.

 

[haqq777]

I'm a former college player, with a similar game to you, but older than you. I think if anyone is advanced enough, the game adapts and compensates to what is needed, against the ones you hit with most. Even from my tennis academy days, the game was transitioning to more and more topspin. I went into the academy a flatter hitter and came out with more topspin and variety, by the time I got to college, because I needed it to get better.
However, if you're saying this new "evolution" isn't a winning strategy, then I'd say your game is merely deteriorating either from lack of practice or injuries.

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

With regard to a winning strategy as you put it, I have a pretty positive scoreline record with college kids in the team even today. Except for the #1 and #2, I can usually keep up with the rest of the guys in point play. I even beat the number 1 kid last year but was a one off although I can spar with him easily. He just wins in points and sets etc. I think the transformation towards a flatter game is more subtle than I described I guess, and like you said, game depends on opponent as well.

I have no complaints in all honesty, it is what it is. I wasn't an overly spinny player anyway. Was just curious if others had similar experiences.

 

[haqq777]

New vs dead poly is going to play very different. OP posted no numbers either.

Thanks but not my first rodeo. I don't play with dead poly. I either break string before it dies or cut it out after 8-10 hour mark when I feel string is gone. My string tension and strings remain constant. Things are much easier to deal with that way. I play matches with RS Lyon at 50lbs. I do switch racquets and strings from time to time to try them out but my string and tension stays the same on my go-to sticks for matches and point play.

 

[J011yroger]

Does playsight give RPM data? Maybe you are just getting better and hitting the ball harder instead of trading rpm for mph.

J

 

[haqq777]

Does playsight give RPM data? Maybe you are just getting better and hitting the ball harder instead of trading rpm for mph.

J

Oh Playsight actually gives every number imaginable. My avg RPM has gone down, and avg mph has gone up compared to two years ago. Net clearance for both forehand and backhand has gone lower as well (hitting higher percentage of balls with lower net clearance). Interestingly the percentage of forehands and backhands 'in' as shown on Playsight was very very close to when I was hitting a loopier & higher rpm ball from two/three years back. So technically my game is not deteriorating (but not getting better either). Noticed this over multiple Playsight sessions. Also, this years numbers are closer to last year than the year before that. So whatever 'transition' numbers are suggesting is gradual but definitely there.

 

[J011yroger]

Oh Playsight actually gives every number imaginable. My avg RPM has gone down, and avg mph has gone up compared to two years ago. Net clearance for both forehand and backhand has gone lower as well (hitting higher percentage of balls with lower net clearance). Interestingly the percentage of forehands and backhands 'in' as shown on Playsight was very very close to when I was hitting a loopier & higher rpm ball from two/three years back. So technically my game is not deteriorating (but not getting better either). Noticed this over multiple Playsight sessions. Also, this years numbers are closer to last year than the year before that. So whatever 'transition' numbers are suggesting is gradual but definitely there.

I have to try this out.

J

 

[Steady Eddy]

Oh Playsight actually gives every number imaginable. My avg RPM has gone down, and avg mph has gone up compared to two years ago. Net clearance for both forehand and backhand has gone lower as well (hitting higher percentage of balls with lower net clearance). Interestingly the percentage of forehands and backhands 'in' as shown on Playsight was very very close to when I was hitting a loopier & higher rpm ball from two/three years back. So technically my game is not deteriorating (but not getting better either). Noticed this over multiple Playsight sessions. Also, this years numbers are closer to last year than the year before that. So whatever 'transition' numbers are suggesting is gradual but definitely there.

Yes, because flat balls more penetration than topspin balls. Allen Fox believes that topspin is for passing shots, but that flat is better for rallies.

 

[J011yroger]

Yes, because flat balls more penetration than topspin balls. Allen Fox believes that topspin is for passing shots, but that flat is better for rallies.

Sounds like the opposite of what I believe.

J

 

[haqq777]

Yes, because flat balls more penetration than topspin balls. Allen Fox believes that topspin is for passing shots, but that flat is better for rallies.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Higher spin with more net clearance for rally balls and flatter hitting - with less margin for error and lower net clearance - when hitting winners/passing shots?

 

[Steady Eddy]

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Higher spin with more net clearance for rally balls and flatter hitting - with less margin for error and lower net clearance - when hitting winners/passing shots?

I like rallying with topspinners. The ball bounces up nice and high. Flat shots stay now, and are hard to take a full swing at.

But at the net, topspin always the passer to use greater angles in passing.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Tennis is always the same at all levels:

Can I out-grind this guy?

If yes, do that.

If no, do something else... probably going to lose unless the "something else" is "good enough net play". There is a long line of losing "bigger and flatter" something elsers in rec tennis.

Was that helpful?

 

[Sardines]

With regard to a winning strategy as you put it, I have a pretty positive scoreline record with college kids in the team even today. Except for the #1 and #2, I can usually keep up with the rest of the guys in point play. I even beat the number 1 kid last year but was a one off although I can spar with him easily. He just wins in points and sets etc. I think the transformation towards a flatter game is more subtle than I described I guess, and like you said, game depends on opponent as well.

I have no complaints in all honesty, it is what it is. I wasn't an overly spinny player anyway. Was just curious if others had similar experiences.

Well, I've found as I get older, racquet head speed doesn't deteriorate that much from 20-40, assuming no injuries and proper strength training. The marked difference is from 20-50, as fast twitch muscles don't grow but deteriorate. I don't train 3 hrs a day so obviously I'm not hitting as big as when I was playing D1, but relatively speaking, especially with newer racquet/string tech, as long as the technique is solid, I'm within the ball park.
I know one thing that is definitely worsening is foot speed, movement and physical recovery.
I noticed from my Playsight video vs clips from the yesteryears is that I'm reaching the ball a little later as the decades progress, so I'm hitting the ball more stretched out and out of proper stance, more often.
I probably hit with more spin now because my racquet is more powerful and I need the control. What rpms are you dropping in 2 years? 200-300 rpm?

 

[chrisb]

Hi folk,

So I went to a Playsight court and some of the numbers I saw were a bit fascinating. Cutting long story short, I am hitting considerably flatter, and with a few more mph on ground strokes as compared to numbers from a few years back.

My background: former South Central Div II player, currently in my mid 30s. Still hit with local DII team players and their coach who was also a former college player. I can keep up with them although last few months I have barely been hanging on in sets and point play. I like to think that is because of multiple injuries but it could be that my game is sliding. At 35, I am not too worried about losing bit to young college kids anyhow. Anyway, I weigh 170-172lbs (was 160 when I played college tennis) and 5'9.

Could the flatter strokes be because I played non stop on indoor courts all through the winter? Balls are faster and surface super quick in my indoor facilities. The whole spin game just is not fruitful there. So maybe I adapted to that. But then I asked a couple of guys I hit with whole of last year and they mentioned that my game has definitely leaned towards flatter hitting since last year or two - which makes me think it just isn't the few months of winter that I played indoors.

So I guess what I am trying to figure out is that my game evolving to more flatter strokes, is it because of fitness (or lack thereof), or cutting point shorts? I played as an aggressive baseliner for as far as I can remember and my game has started becoming a bit more all court recently I noticed. Or is that a general trend - that as you age you start hitting more flatter as your racquet head speed goes down and you try to compensate by hitting flatter and a bit harder?

Finally, one last bit is that my grip is the same. Modern eastern (think Fed, not the conservative eastern but more towards semiwesten) and backhand is easter OHBH.

Thanks for all your thoughts/feedback.

 

[chrisb]

There are several factors involved 1. The faster court gives u less prep time to get to contact point so letting racket head drop intuitively gets shorter producing flatter shots, 2. on fastre courts in higher level tennis the ball does not come up as high and tends to go through the court more making forcing shots a premium again flatter shots, 3 as we age the eye focus becomes slower giving u less time to find the ball again leading to less time to prepare 4 the spin u have for slower courts will get the ball above the ideal contact point of your opponent this will not happen as much on fast court making it easier for your opponent to attack your ball. I have found my strokes get shorter and flatter on fast indoor hard and get longer and have more top outdoor slower hard and clay

 

[haqq777]

Well, I've found as I get older, racquet head speed doesn't deteriorate that much from 20-40, assuming no injuries and proper strength training. The marked difference is from 20-50, as fast twitch muscles don't grow but deteriorate. I don't train 3 hrs a day so obviously I'm not hitting as big as when I was playing D1, but relatively speaking, especially with newer racquet/string tech, as long as the technique is solid, I'm within the ball park.
I know one thing that is definitely worsening is foot speed, movement and physical recovery.
I noticed from my Playsight video vs clips from the yesteryears is that I'm reaching the ball a little later as the decades progress, so I'm hitting the ball more stretched out and out of proper stance, more often.
I probably hit with more spin now because my racquet is more powerful and I need the control. What rpms are you dropping in 2 years? 200-300 rpm?

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

Interestingly enough I chatted with multiple coaches there on the courts (was a university facility with a meet happening as well) and they told me RHS does indeed drop quite a bit if you don't practice as much as you did during college days so that is definitely a factor for me - on top of foot speed and movement like you said. I obviously am not drilling twice a day and doing conditioning everyday as I used to back in college either.

That said, fitness wise I am pretty fit still, no recovery issues yet either. I still use ice baths and eat proper and train with weights - just not how I used to though. Movement wise I am good too, not late on the balls. One thing I have noticed is that with college level kids if you are late on the ball and have movement issues, you are not going to survive out there.

Yes my rpm dropped by avg 200 ish compared to two/three years ago and I am hitting the ball by avg 3-4mph faster. Still decent enough spin on the ball as my opponents said, but not like it used to be.

 

[haqq777]

There are several factors involved 1. The faster court gives u less prep time to get to contact point so letting racket head drop intuitively gets shorter producing flatter shots, 2. on fastre courts in higher level tennis the ball does not come up as high and tends to go through the court more making forcing shots a premium again flatter shots, 3 as we age the eye focus becomes slower giving u less time to find the ball again leading to less time to prepare 4 the spin u have for slower courts will get the ball above the ideal contact point of your opponent this will not happen as much on fast court making it easier for your opponent to attack your ball. I have found my strokes get shorter and flatter on fast indoor hard and get longer and have more top outdoor slower hard and clay

Thanks, all good points.

 

[haqq777]

Tennis is always the same at all levels:

Can I out-grind this guy?

If yes, do that.

If no, do something else... probably going to lose unless the "something else" is "good enough net play". There is a long line of losing "bigger and flatter" something elsers in rec tennis.

Was that helpful?

lol, indeed. Thanks!

 

[ARKustom93]

i can see that.
flatter strokes reward you on hard/fast surfaces.
my game has gotten spinnier, since i play mostly on clay these days (really hard to hit through people because the ball slows down so much, compared to slick outdoor haven't been surfaced in 10y public courts).

If you're talking about PB, sad to hear ... Any cracking going on?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

If you're talking about PB, sad to hear ... Any cracking going on?

PB?

 

[ByeByePoly]

lol, indeed. Thanks!

It is ok if they are faster if they are doing all the running. Think Davenport.

 

[ARKustom93]

PB?

Pine Brook ...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Pine Brook ...

yeah PB is run down,... don't play there any more... not to mention, it's no longer a spot where folks go to pick up a decent game (not sure of anywhere, where that exists in NY... then again i'm no longer a 3.5)
mostly play at private clubs featuring clay courts.

there's a rumor that a company is planning to lease PB, fix it up, and make it into an academy of sorts... i guess tennis is not dead (there have been quite a few places (i can think of 5) that have opened up in the last 10y)

 

[J011yroger]

yeah PB is run down,... don't play there any more... not to mention, it's no longer a spot where folks go to pick up a decent game (not sure of anywhere, where that exists in NY... then again i'm no longer a 3.5)
mostly play at private clubs featuring clay courts.

there's a rumor that a company is planning to lease PB, fix it up, and make it into an academy of sorts... i guess tennis is not dead (there have been quite a few places (i can think of 5) that have opened up in the last 10y)

Might have to take my services over the bridge in 2019.

J

 

[Ruark]

Maybe as you get older, you don't squeeze the racket as hard and/or try to hit as hard as you do when you were a hyperhormonal lunatic. As a result, your arm and wrist are more relaxed, which allows more racket speed and a faster ball.

 

[MotoboXer]

This would be the time for you to try and learn some new shots to add to your game like a 1HBH or straight-arm FH (assuming you dont already) now that your mind-set is in more adaptive.

 

[haqq777]

This would be the time for you to try and learn some new shots to add to your game like a 1HBH or straight-arm FH (assuming you dont already) now that your mind-set is in more adaptive.

Thanks, I actually have both - 1HBH and a straight-arm FH and I am not too keen on switching to a two handed BH or a bent elbow forehand. I would have to reinvent my whole movement for that. But definitely see your point about learning new things. That's always a good thing.

 

[haqq777]

Maybe as you get older, you don't squeeze the racket as hard and/or try to hit as hard as you do when you were a hyperhormonal lunatic. As a result, your arm and wrist are more relaxed, which allows more racket speed and a faster ball.

Yeah could be. Good point.

 

[34n]

I noticed the same trend in my game.
Topspin in school years, even more topspin when I was around 30 and played 5.0 in Texas and way flatter game now when I am 50.
( regardless of the equipment )
My theory is that I just got weaker in terms of mass/power ratio and can not set up a topspin shot fast enough.
Nowadays I can ether produce spin or produce pace, not both. When I play consecutive topspin shots I loose depth. I also loose time because of staying back and aiming higher. Hard time closing points this way.
I can't set up fast and move towards the ball with a top spin shot . But I can do this with a flat shot.
So basically I resorted to predominantly flat game and use topspin for short angles and passing shots.

 

[Bender]

backhand is easter OHBH.

Is this because your BH has a tendency to lay an egg and go on holiday?

 

[haqq777]

Is this because your BH has a tendency to lay an egg and go on holiday?

Ok that was legitimately funny! - anyway, it does have a mind of it's own and can lay eggs and disappear anytime through the year so there's that too, lol

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Pine Brook ...

recently ran into a kid that i used to hit with (at PB) when he was a teen...
back then i was taller than him.
now he's 6'4 with a monster serve
i wouldn't have recognized him, but his parents were there (who i remember playing dubs with in my 20's)
turns out the brother/sister duo are now playing 9.0 together... pretty cool, but damn, i'm getting old...

rumors of PB turning into an academy apparently were squashed.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Could the flatter strokes be because I played non stop on indoor courts all through the winter? Balls are faster and surface super quick in my indoor facilities. The whole spin game just is not fruitful there. So maybe I adapted to that. But then I asked a couple of guys I hit with whole of last year and they mentioned that my game has definitely leaned towards flatter hitting since last year or two - which makes me think it just isn't the few months of winter that I played indoors.

my strokes flatten on fast hc... and become spinnier on clay.
in general, i'm trying to match the ball trajectory being given to me.
so while the surface is a factor, i think it's more a function of the types of people you'll tend to play on a surface.

i see a similar thing with juniors... when they are young, everyone is a moonballer/pusher... and some kids develop a really extreme western grip to counter all the high balls