EddieBrock
Hall of Fame
When I played I hit 2 or 3 kick serves in a couple sets where I ended up hitting the frame and obviously missing them. That's not really something I've done before that I can remember and am not sure why it just started.
Hitting frame on kick serve
- Thread starter EddieBrock
- Start date
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
That's always a fraction away on a kicker. I have hit a kicker forever, so that rarely happens when I'm playing regularly. I hadn't hit a serve for 2 months because of no matches due to hamstring injury. A couple of days ago I decided to serve some after ball machine session. In the first dozen, I framed the hockey out of a couple. Made me laugh ... can't remember the last time that happened. I remember having the thought ... "yeah, there is a lot of timing in a kicker".
I almost killed a mixed doubles partner learning a kicker. Probably best to do that by yourself.
I watched John McEnroe hit a 2nd serve into the side stands off to his L in a televised Davis Cup match years ago. He framed it so bad, he hit it almost due West. It happens.
Attacking on edge is good but you have to time the opening of the racket face as it has to open a bit to present some string to the ball.
Attacking on edge is good but you have to time the opening of the racket face as it has to open a bit to present some string to the ball.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.
J
J
Wise one
Hall of Fame
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Edge of what?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Pickle9
Professional
EddieBrock
Hall of Fame
So it's just a timing issue?
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Prehaps but usually its just not paying attention and looking up before contact to see if it kicks over the fence this time
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
First, determine your serving technique with high speed video. Chances are that it is not a high level technique.
There is very little clear video on how a racket head meets the ball on a high level kick serve, but there is a little.
For unknown serving techniques there's nothing available for you to compare with. I don't know how a kick serve can be hit with a Waiter's Tray technique. My friend hits a pretty good slice with a WT technique.
In a high level serve at impact, the racket rises from swings (at elbow, wrist, etc.) as it rotates from ISR. For the kick serve, the impact occurs lower in this pattern while the racket is still rising rapidly. For slice or flat serves, impact occurs closer to the highest point that the racket will reach. In time, kick serve impact occurs, say, 5 milliseconds earlier. In space, it occurs a few inches/several centimeters lower in the 3D path. In angle, impact occurs some degrees earlier while the racket head is still facing more to the left for a right hander. Therefore, the upper body has to face more to the right so that the racket face points more to the right and the ball will have the correct trajectory in azimuth. But the upper body does not 'face to the side' on a high level kick serve. These small differences cannot possibly be seen with 30/25 frame per second video, capturing a frame every 33/40 milliseconds. 240 fps, capturing a frame every 4.2 milliseconds, does a good job. The camera view from above the server is very useful for seeing these 3D features.
There is very little clear video on how a racket head meets the ball on a high level kick serve, but there is a little.
For unknown serving techniques there's nothing available for you to compare with. I don't know how a kick serve can be hit with a Waiter's Tray technique. My friend hits a pretty good slice with a WT technique.
In a high level serve at impact, the racket rises from swings (at elbow, wrist, etc.) as it rotates from ISR. For the kick serve, the impact occurs lower in this pattern while the racket is still rising rapidly. For slice or flat serves, impact occurs closer to the highest point that the racket will reach. In time, kick serve impact occurs, say, 5 milliseconds earlier. In space, it occurs a few inches/several centimeters lower in the 3D path. In angle, impact occurs some degrees earlier while the racket head is still facing more to the left for a right hander. Therefore, the upper body has to face more to the right so that the racket face points more to the right and the ball will have the correct trajectory in azimuth. But the upper body does not 'face to the side' on a high level kick serve. These small differences cannot possibly be seen with 30/25 frame per second video, capturing a frame every 33/40 milliseconds. 240 fps, capturing a frame every 4.2 milliseconds, does a good job. The camera view from above the server is very useful for seeing these 3D features.
Last edited:
EddieBrock
Hall of Fame
I don't have a waiter's tray technique.
What confuses me is that you say your upper body does not 'face to the side' on a high level kick serve", but also that "the upper body has to face more to the right..."
I just remember a video I saw a while ago that talked about hitting the racket with the edge by accident.
Look at 3:25 here: Guess I'm making that beginner mistake a few times
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I base my information for racket angles mostly on what I can find in high speed videos and the descriptions by Cross & Lindsay in Technical Tennis.
This is my model for angles on the kick serve. Shows ISR, upper body angles, racket path from above, hand path from above, racket face at impact, impact location relative to the head and other information. Toly composite pictures from Fuzzy Yellow Balls rare overhead high speed videos. See original FYB videos. Server is Frank Salazar.
Look at the angle that the upper body is facing at impact for these three type serves. The chest on the kick serve faces more to the side than the chest on the flat or slice serves. I don't have many examples of this clarity or statistical information to show variety in use.
The upper body does not 'face to the side' as is stated in some instructions and discussions. Facing completely to the side may work for instruction or at lower levels but do any ATP servers hit kick serves that way?
The orientation of the edge of the racket is changing rapidly, mostly because of ISR. I don't see that ISR rotation mentioned in instructional videos, including the Avery video. Simplified in words, the racket has both a rotation from ISR and a total closing swing resulting from the body, shoulder, elbow and wrist swings together. Both are clearly seen in high speed videos.
The racket appears longer at impact for the kick serve because it is at a greater viewing angle to the camera.
See angles in the other posts of this thread.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/kick-serve-wrist-movement-video.557005/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ve-wrist-movement-video.557005/#post-10090644
Last edited:
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
You might possibly be dropping your head too early, maybe trying to see where it's going to land in the court?
I also frame a kick serve once in a while, but it seems to happen less if I mentally focus on watching the ball until I hit it. I seem to frame more often against a strong returner, if I'm worried about him running around his backhand on a 2nd serve, which I attribute to me dropping my head too early try to watch his return.
I also frame a kick serve once in a while, but it seems to happen less if I mentally focus on watching the ball until I hit it. I seem to frame more often against a strong returner, if I'm worried about him running around his backhand on a 2nd serve, which I attribute to me dropping my head too early try to watch his return.
