Hitting intentionally off center

sureshs

Bionic Poster
well read up on the sweet spots and you will know more about them


thanks System

Irrelevant to what you wrote and what I wrote. No pro is going: I will avoid the center of bounce and focus on the center of percussion. The question is about hitting lower on the sweetzone intentionally.
 

paulfr

New User
I am the OP and here is my reasoning and observations

If you hit anywhere, including the center, on the strings while swinging low to high, you will get topspin.
This of course assumes the strings are vertical or closed [upper edge ahead of lower edge]
But if you are also rotating your forearm CW [supinating] and thus the face moves
from closed to less closed to square/vertical through the ball,
for the purpose of getting more spin with the gear effect, it will tend to fly on you.

However, you can counter the CW rotation with a
CCW torque created by hitting below the center.

The supination CW rotation of your arm/wrist exerts a Force
on the ball and the ball exerts a reaction Force on
the strings which yields a CCW torque about the long axis
from the butt to the tip of the frame.
This is due to Newton's 3rd Law ...... Action => Reaction

This balancing of the CW and CCW torques/rotations leads to more stability and consistency.
And the supination provides more topspin by the gear effect than simply swinging low to high.
It does feel funny at first and you get less power, But the benefits are worth it.

If you minimize or eliminate supination thru the ball, like hitting flat,
hitting below center is not necessary.

Those who think this is all BS should look at Bautista-Agut hit a FH
And he does it on some BHs too.
He does not do it on his return of serve; he hits that one flat.
Slow it down to 1/4 th speed with settings in the lower right.
You will be able to see it much more clearly.
Be patient and look for at least 4 - 5 minutes.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I am the OP and here is my reasoning and observations

If you hit anywhere, including the center, on the strings while swinging low to high, you will get topspin.
This of course assumes the strings are vertical or closed [upper edge ahead of lower edge]
But if you are also rotating your forearm CW [supinating] and thus the face moves
from closed to less closed to square/vertical through the ball,
for the purpose of getting more spin with the gear effect, it will tend to fly on you.

However, you can counter the CW rotation with a
CCW torque created by hitting below the center.

The supination CW rotation of your arm/wrist exerts a Force
on the ball and the ball exerts a reaction Force on
the strings which yields a CCW torque about the long axis
from the butt to the tip of the frame.
This is due to Newton's 3rd Law ...... Action => Reaction

This balancing of the CW and CCW torques/rotations leads to more stability and consistency.
And the supination provides more topspin by the gear effect than simply swinging low to high.
It does feel funny at first and you get less power, But the benefits are worth it.

If you minimize or eliminate supination thru the ball, like hitting flat,
hitting below center is not necessary.

Those who think this is all BS should look at Bautista-Agut hit a FH
And he does it on some BHs too.
He does not do it on his return of serve; he hits that one flat.
Slow it down to 1/4 th speed with settings in the lower right.
You will be able to see it much more clearly.
Be patient and look for at least 4 - 5 minutes.

Please give the time(s) of the video for the stroke(s) that you are referring to.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
..................................
If you hit anywhere, including the center, on the strings while swinging low to high, you will get topspin.
This of course assumes the strings are vertical or closed [upper edge ahead of lower edge]
But if you are also rotating your forearm CW [supinating] and thus the face moves
from closed to less closed to square/vertical through the ball,
.........................

"But if you are also rotating your forearm CW [supinating] and thus the face moves
from closed to less closed to square/vertical through the ball,"


I am getting lost here. Is the above for a forehand? What stroke and grip are you discussing?

Sorry, if I missed an earlier post where you explained it.

For the current SW forehand, pronation or ISR causes the head of the racket face mostly to rise around impact. The angle between the forearm and racket shaft with a SW grip near impact is large, so pronation or ISR makes the racket head rise. But if the racket were more in line with the forearm, supination would open the face of the racket. ( I used to have the concept that the racket shaft was oriented mostly as a straight extension of the forearm until I studied the current forehand with a SW grip at impact. Imagine the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle as viewed from above.)

This is where a few frames of videos makes communication clear.

[ Also, CW and CCW depends on the viewing direction.]
 
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Dragy

Legend
I am the OP and here is my reasoning and observations

If you hit anywhere, including the center, on the strings while swinging low to high, you will get topspin.
This of course assumes the strings are vertical or closed [upper edge ahead of lower edge]
But if you are also rotating your forearm CW [supinating] and thus the face moves
from closed to less closed to square/vertical through the ball,
for the purpose of getting more spin with the gear effect, it will tend to fly on you.

However, you can counter the CW rotation with a
CCW torque created by hitting below the center.

The supination CW rotation of your arm/wrist exerts a Force
on the ball and the ball exerts a reaction Force on
the strings which yields a CCW torque about the long axis
from the butt to the tip of the frame.
This is due to Newton's 3rd Law ...... Action => Reaction

This balancing of the CW and CCW torques/rotations leads to more stability and consistency.
And the supination provides more topspin by the gear effect than simply swinging low to high.
It does feel funny at first and you get less power, But the benefits are worth it.

If you minimize or eliminate supination thru the ball, like hitting flat,
hitting below center is not necessary.

Those who think this is all BS should look at Bautista-Agut hit a FH
And he does it on some BHs too.
He does not do it on his return of serve; he hits that one flat.
Slow it down to 1/4 th speed with settings in the lower right.
You will be able to see it much more clearly.
Be patient and look for at least 4 - 5 minutes.
Why would you supinate hitting a FH?
One actuaclly swings arm forward and up, which causes racquet face to open. Simultaneously, one can perform internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and, to some degree, forearm pronation, which causes RF to close for most grips but full Western/Hawaiian. That's the balancing act which ensures that RF open/close angle remains reasonable through hitting zone:
YxCwpSl.jpg


Even when ball hits above or below center, and racquet wobbles, it doen't affect the ballflight drastically, they still make decent shots - the ball leaves too soon, RH and string vertical action is so much dominant against that twist action.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Tennisspeed has a fine way to display racket face orientation regarding how closed it is. Federer has a near straight elbow and an Eastern Forehand Grip. The red lines are likely due to impact effects such as hitting below the racket shaft centerline and other conditions. Impact racket motion as shown in red probably causes pronation of the wrist joint. The racket shaft appears short because it is at a larger angle to the camera. The best way to observe the forearm-to-racket angle (120 d. ?) is from above.
RF%2BRacket%2BPath%2B008.jpg


I have heard it said that the racket during about 4 milliseconds of impact does not have time enough to change orientation. I have not seen any evidence to support that. The ball embeds into the strings and the elastic strings and elastic distorted ball cause forces to accelerate the ball. That's complicated. I don't think that anything short of serious scientific measurements are useful for understanding the effects of impact.


Djokovic has a bent elbow and, I believe, a Semi Western Grip. The red line with the "12 d" is the frame after impact. The green line is impact. Notice that the racket is directly toward the camera and the racket shaft appears to have no length from this camera angle. It is hard to estimate the angle of the forearm from this camera view. Again, the best camera angle to observe this forearm-to-racket-shaft angle would be camera viewing from above.
ND+IZ+Pronation+005.jpg


Looking at these on Tennisspeed it does seem as if the majority of the red lines show that the racket face is closing after impact (needs confirmation). That is interesting. ? If true, what is the cause? Maybe Tennisspeed selected the ones where the racket closed?

Google: Tennisspeed Djokovic forehand pictures

On topic information here.
 
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Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
OP, please go out and try to hit the ball on the bottom part of the strings consistently. Come back and tell us how that worked out for you.

There is too much variability in tennis to do anything other than try to get the center of the racquet stringbed on the ball and hope you hit within the 6 inch window. If you intentionally reduce your window of opportunity for a good shot to 1-2" you are going to make an inordinate number of UE's.

The ball speed and bounce height varies too much for a pro to hit within such small margins. Impossible for a rec player.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Tennisspeed has a fine way to display racket face orientation regarding how closed it is. Federer has a near straight elbow and an Eastern Forehand Grip. The red lines are likely due to impact effects such as hitting below the racket shaft centerline and other conditions. Impact racket motion as shown in red probably causes pronation of the wrist joint. The racket shaft appears short because it is at a larger angle to the camera. The best way to observe the forearm-to-racket angle (120 d. ?) is from above.
RF%2BRacket%2BPath%2B008.jpg


I have heard it said that the racket during about 4 milliseconds of impact does not have time enough to change orientation. I have not seen any evidence to support that. The ball embeds into the strings and the elastic strings and elastic distorted ball cause forces to accelerate the ball. That's complicated. I don't think that anything short of serious scientific measurements are useful for understanding the effects of impact.


Djokovic has a bent elbow and, I believe, a Semi Western Grip. The red line with the "12 d" is the frame after impact. The green line is impact. Notice that the racket is directly toward the camera and the racket shaft appears to have no length from this camera angle. It is hard to estimate the angle of the forearm from this camera view. Again, the best camera angle to observe this forearm-to-racket-shaft angle would be camera viewing from above.
ND+IZ+Pronation+005.jpg


Looking at these on Tennisspeed it does seem as if the majority of the red lines show that the racket face is closing after impact (needs confirmation). That is interesting. ? If true, what is the cause? Maybe Tennisspeed selected the ones where the racket closed?

Google: Tennisspeed Djokovic forehand pictures

On topic information here.
It has been shown that during the last phase of the impact between the ball and the stringbed, the ball is exerting an upward force on the stringbed due to overspin (the ball’s surface is moving upward faster than the strings).

The upward component of that force vector acts at an offset from the neutral plane of the stringbed (because of pocketing).

Thus, the final parting impulse from the ball to the racquet results in a torque that causes the racquet to twist more closed after impact.
 

paulfr

New User
Why would you supinate hitting a FH?
One actually swings arm forward and up, which causes racquet face to open. Simultaneously, one can perform internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and, to some degree, forearm pronation, which causes RF to close for most grips but full Western/Hawaiian. That's the balancing act which ensures that RF open/close angle remains reasonable through hitting zone:

Why would you supinate ?
Just look at most videos of ATP FHs. That is what you see. When the racquet is behind the body the strings are nearly facing the court and they square up coming in to the ball. That is a CW rotation of the forearm. If the CW motion goes too far, the low to high swing path, combined with the opening face will send the ball long ............. This is where the hitting below center becomes a useful technique to master as hitting below center applies a CCW torque which compensates for the danger of flying the ball.

One reason this is confusing and hard to get is that there is another different FH swing that is just the opposite. You come in to the ball with a square or slightly open string face and pronate through the ball which closes the face toward the ground. This is usually hit when the ball is taken way out in front. Here is an example of Fed hitting in this way. Please note that to see it clearly you need to set playback speed to 1/4 with the Settings in the lower right corner.
....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plIo9IfIvtA. ................. Notice how he comes thru the ball with a nearly square face and after contact the stringface is closing and pointing to the court.
Look at lots of ATP FHs and this is what you will see much of the time.
 

Dragy

Legend
Why would you supinate ?
Just look at most videos of ATP FHs. That is what you see. When the racquet is behind the body the strings are nearly facing the court and they square up coming in to the ball. That is a CW rotation of the forearm. If the CW motion goes too far, the low to high swing path, combined with the opening face will send the ball long ............. This is where the hitting below center becomes a useful technique to master as hitting below center applies a CCW torque which compensates for the danger of flying the ball.

One reason this is confusing and hard to get is that there is another different FH swing that is just the opposite. You come in to the ball with a square or slightly open string face and pronate through the ball which closes the face toward the ground. This is usually hit when the ball is taken way out in front. Here is an example of Fed hitting in this way. Please note that to see it clearly you need to set playback speed to 1/4 with the Settings in the lower right corner.
....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plIo9IfIvtA. ................. Notice how he comes thru the ball with a nearly square face and after contact the stringface is closing and pointing to the court.
Look at lots of ATP FHs and this is what you will see much of the time.
What you talk about happens well before contact. Approaching contact arm performs ISR, which causes RF rise towards above handle and stay relatively stable with stringbed “closeness”. That’s what you see on Stef frames I posted.
If you don’t do it, you might find it useful to learn.
 

paulfr

New User
OP, please go out and try to hit the ball on the bottom part of the strings consistently. Come back and tell us how that worked out for you.

There is too much variability in tennis to do anything other than try to get the center of the racquet stringbed on the ball and hope you hit within the 6 inch window. If you intentionally reduce your window of opportunity for a good shot to 1-2" you are going to make an inordinate number of UE's.

The ball speed and bounce height varies too much for a pro to hit within such small margins. Impossible for a rec player.

You are right that an imprecise hit will not turn out well.
First one should be trying to hit below center, NOT "on the bottom part of the strings". There is a difference.
So if you hit too close to the center, there is not much of a problem.
BUT
If you hit too low you risk framing the ball.
This is clearly a technique ONLY for advanced players and pros.
And there are good reasons whey Oscar Wegner and other teachers teach it.
And in this thread there is a scientific study confirming that it is a useful technique for getting more spin.

If you are sure this is foolish, just ignore the idea.
But if you want to remain open minded [not easy for many of us] I would suggest
going to YT FH videos and you will see contact being made below center for many pro FHs
Here is a precise well respected player Baustista-Agut hitting below center on most FHs
You should be able to find many others.
Not Delpo. He hits flat.
Not Wawrinka, he hits more out toward the tip of his Yonex frame
But look at Theim FHs here

Cheers
 

FiReFTW

Legend
OP, please go out and try to hit the ball on the bottom part of the strings consistently. Come back and tell us how that worked out for you.

There is too much variability in tennis to do anything other than try to get the center of the racquet stringbed on the ball and hope you hit within the 6 inch window. If you intentionally reduce your window of opportunity for a good shot to 1-2" you are going to make an inordinate number of UE's.

The ball speed and bounce height varies too much for a pro to hit within such small margins. Impossible for a rec player.

It sure is funny reading these threads tho, and these ridicilous discussions, you have to admit that much.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Good video of Thiem above, now it became abundantly clear to me why Thiem can't break through and win a Slam, hes clearly not hitting low enough and getting enough spin.

Does anyone have his number so we let him know?

Jh7U3Q0.jpg
Remember... the gear effect is counterintuitive. Thiem is actually doing it right, hitting the top part of the stringbed for more spin. ;)
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
It has been shown that during the last phase of the impact between the ball and the stringbed, the ball is exerting an upward force on the stringbed due to overspin (the ball’s surface is moving upward faster than the strings).

The upward component of that force vector acts at an offset from the neutral plane of the stringbed (because of pocketing).

Thus, the final parting impulse from the ball to the racquet results in a torque that causes the racquet to twist more closed after impact.
I believe that you will see less of this post-impact face closing effect if you look at slo-mo vids of pro players in the pre-poly era, because the level of residual overspin at the end of the impact was much lower without so much main string movement.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Contact zone is also dictated partially by height of the ball. People forget this. That is why I said before that on low scoops, we will naturally hit on the lower half. Why? Because there is not enough space above the ground for the racket if we hit higher up, duh.

Don't over-analyze this.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
It has been shown that during the last phase of the impact between the ball and the stringbed, the ball is exerting an upward force on the stringbed due to overspin (the ball’s surface is moving upward faster than the strings).

The upward component of that force vector acts at an offset from the neutral plane of the stringbed (because of pocketing).

Thus, the final parting impulse from the ball to the racquet results in a torque that causes the racquet to twist more closed after impact.
That sounds interesting, do you have the reference?

I have seen very high speed videos where the strings slide on other strings and are stretched. They appear to push on the ball in my interpretation and that produces top spin. Some research was done where lubricants were applied to the string to increase spin.
 

paulfr

New User
Good video of Thiem above, now it became abundantly clear to me why Thiem can't break through and win a Slam, hes clearly not hitting low enough and getting enough spin.

Does anyone have his number so we let him know?

Jh7U3Q0.jpg
So you believe Oscar Wegner and the scientific studies are all wrong ??
Or that top players hitting a FH who supinate to the ball ignore those facts ?

BTW, Common sense tells us a frame moving low to high will be below a ball coming in [pre-contact]
and above a ball going out [post-contact]
So I believe these Thiem snaps are all pre contact.
But it can not be proven for sure without a side view.

EDIT IN ...... The Baustista Agut video I posted above does have a side view
and it is very clear he is hitting below center on most of his hits.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
That sounds interesting, do you have the reference?

I have seen very high speed videos where the strings slide on other strings and are stretched. They appear to push on the ball in my interpretation and that produces top spin. Some research was done where lubricants were applied to the string to increase spin.
There have been a number papers published on tennis ball-racquet oblique impact. This is the first.
The ball exerts a downward force on the stringbed during the first half of the impact, but the direction of the force vector reverses due to overspin. Overspin happen when the ball’s radius increases as it decompresses, and its rotational moment of inertia causes the ball’s surface to move faster upward than the stringbed. As the ball exits the impact, the ball is exerting an upward force on the stringbed.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
EDIT IN ...... The Baustista Agut video I posted above does have a side view
and it is very clear he is hitting below center on most of his hits.

Do you mean the video in post #63?

Most of his hits are not clear. Some of the hits have to be examined to determine if the ball location is before or after impact. You can determine that by looking at how far the incoming ball travels in one frame time.

A higher frame rate would catch more balls on the strings. With 240 fps I nearly always catch the ball on the strings. 240 fps captures one frame every 4.3 milliseconds. The ball is on the strings for about 4 milliseconds, so it is most often caught on the strings with 240 fps. I'd estimate that most videos showing strokes use 240 fps, a very common high speed recording rate offered on many cameras in the USA.

In Europe and other 50 Hz electric power countries, I don't know the common high speed recording rate for tennis strokes? Anybody know? 200 fps or 250 fps?
 
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Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
So I believe these Thiem snaps are all pre contact.
But it can not be proven for sure without a side view.

There are several of the snaps where the ball is clearly compressed so I believe you are wrong.

In a normal groundstroke there is a spin window that the ball will cross as the racket moves from low to high. At maximal compression the ball is ideally in the sweetspot of the racket face, that will give you the most consistent response. As the ball leaves the racket it will appear to be coming off the lower part of the stringbed due to the racquet traveling more vertically and ball traveling more horizontally. But the strings that are making the most consistent contact with the ball are the 4 middle mains.

Sweetspot is always the goal. It's why it's called the sweetspot. If you want to alter ball flight characteristics, it's far more expedient to alter your swing plane and racquet face angle than to try to avoid the sweetspot in any way. Doesn't matter if you are a golfer, tennis player, baseball player.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
There have been a number papers published on tennis ball-racquet oblique impact. This is the first.
The ball exerts a downward force on the stringbed during the first half of the impact, but the direction of the force vector reverses due to overspin. Overspin happen when the ball’s radius increases as it decompresses, and its rotational moment of inertia causes the ball’s surface to move faster upward than the stringbed. As the ball exits the impact, the ball is exerting an upward force on the stringbed.

That reference is only available for $40.

In a real case, the incoming ball is spinning and the racket is also rising laterally to the ball's trajectory. For a hard hit the ball briefly and deeply pockets into the strings. Strings may be moved back and downward by the impact and later spring back and push up on the ball. ? The later forces are probably the stretched strings pushing into and up on the back of the ball to add pace and create topspin and the ball pushing into and down on the strings while it accelerates. I can see the displaced strings and the people doing the work discuss them.

I have found the impact subject too complicated and the experimental short cuts don't always seem to me to simulate the real cases.

You might find some research experiments on Tenniswarehouse University to support your views.

Here is a spinning ball hitting a single string.

String is to the right on the ball. Go full screen and use the slider to single frame.
 
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travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
That reference is only available for $40.

In a real case, the incoming ball is spinning and the racket is also rising laterally to the ball's trajectory. For a hard hit the ball briefly and deeply pockets into the strings. Strings may be moved back and downward by the impact and later spring back and push up on the ball. ? The later forces are probably the stretched strings pushing into and up on the back of the ball to create topspin and pace and the ball pushing into and down on the strings while it accelerates. I can see the displaced strings and the people doing the work discuss them.

I have found the impact subject too complicated and the experimental short cuts don't always seem to me to simulate the real cases.
Research Tip:
you can pull most references for free by visiting Sci-Hub and pasting the article title into the search field.

It is a pirate site that is now so widely used and user friendly that most university researchers don’t even bother to use their own library site anymore.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
In a real case, the incoming ball is spinning and the racket is also rising laterally to the ball's trajectory. For a hard hit the ball briefly and deeply pockets into the strings. Strings may be moved back and downward by the impact and later spring back and push up on the ball. ?
No. The strings grab the ball and push upwards on the ball during the initial phases of the impact. Then, as the ball decompresses and its radius enlarges, its surface starts to spin faster due to rotational inertia (like when an ice-skater spins faster by bringing in her arms to harness her rotational inertia). In the last phase of the impact, the part of the ball in contact with the stringbed is moving upward faster than the stringbed, and the stringbed is actually pushing downward on the ball, which limits the topspin. The more freedom for the strings to move laterally within the plane of the stringbed without pocketing, the more overspin will remain, and the more topspin will be generated.
You might find some research experiments on Tenniswarehouse University to support your views.
Thanks. I've actually already read every article on the subject that I'm aware of, as I try to keep fully up to date on tennis physics.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
In Europe and other 50 Hz electric power countries, I don't know the common high speed recording rate for tennis strokes? Anybody know? 200 fps or 250 fps?

Power supply frequency, which used to play a role in analog television because initial implementations of PAL and NTSC used the mains frequency as a reference clock, has no role here.

Today, everything is digital. There is NO correlation between power supplies and FPS. Digital circuits derive their clock from a quartz piezo-electric oscillator.
 
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paulfr

New User
Do you mean the video in post #63?

Most of his hits are not clear. Some of the hits have to be examined to determine if the ball location is before or after impact.

A higher frame rate would catch more balls on the strings. With 240 fps I nearly always catch the ball on the strings. 240 fps captures one frame every 4.3 milliseconds. The ball is on the strings for about 4 milliseconds, so it is most often caught on the strings with 240 fps. I'd estimate that most videos showing strokes use 240 fps, a very common high speed recording rate offered on many cameras in the USA.

In Europe and other 50 Hz electric power countries, I don't know the common high speed recording rate for tennis strokes? Anybody know? 200 fps or 250 fps?
Yes I meant post #63 for the Bautista-Agut video.
You need to put the speed down to 1/4 speed to see it.
It is quite clear to me the ball hits the lower part of his stringbed.
 

paulfr

New User
There are several of the snaps where the ball is clearly compressed so I believe you are wrong.

In a normal groundstroke there is a spin window that the ball will cross as the racket moves from low to high. At maximal compression the ball is ideally in the sweetspot of the racket face, that will give you the most consistent response. As the ball leaves the racket it will appear to be coming off the lower part of the stringbed due to the racquet traveling more vertically and ball traveling more horizontally. But the strings that are making the most consistent contact with the ball are the 4 middle mains.

Sweetspot is always the goal. It's why it's called the sweetspot. If you want to alter ball flight characteristics, it's far more expedient to alter your swing plane and racquet face angle than to try to avoid the sweetspot in any way. Doesn't matter if you are a golfer, tennis player, baseball player.
You say the "sweetspot is always the goal"
This is quite logical and certainly true for maximum power.
But not all shots need maximum power. Pace has its place, but an advanced player considers other things
which may be more important like 1/ placement, 2/ depth and 3/ variety [ giving the opponent a "differrent look" ].
***** Hitting below center also makes hitting long less likely so you have a better chance of hitting deep safely. ****

And I have said this topic of hitting below center is for advanced and professional players ONLY.

Look ..... this idea seems weird. I understand.
But top artists in any field use techniques that the average player
knows nothing about. This is true for this idea.

As a point of evidence, when a golfer faces a slippery, short, downhill putt,
a well known technique is to hit the ball on the tip of the putter, NOT the center sweetspot.
This is an INTENTIONAL MISHIT so the ball does NOT come off "hot" which is the last thing you want on a delicate putt.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
You say the "sweetspot is always the goal"
This is quite logical and certainly true for maximum power.
But not all shots need maximum power. Pace has its place, but an advanced player considers other things
which may be more important like 1/ placement, 2/ depth and 3/ variety [ giving the opponent a "differrent look" ].
***** Hitting below center also makes hitting long less likely so you have a better chance of hitting deep safely. ****

And I have said this topic of hitting below center is for advanced and professional players ONLY.

Look ..... this idea seems weird. I understand.
But top artists in any field use techniques that the average player
knows nothing about. This is true for this idea.

As a point of evidence, when a golfer faces a slippery, short, downhill putt,
a well known technique is to hit the ball on the tip of the putter, NOT the center sweetspot.
This is an INTENTIONAL MISHIT so the ball does NOT come off "hot" which is the last thing you want on a delicate putt.

If it is a well-known golf technique, it contradicts your claim that the pros use techniques amateurs don't know anything about.

I can guarantee that several posters on this forum, who are generally between 3.5 and 4.5, know much more about tennis than the pros. They are just not good, that is all. There is NO secret knowledge that Fedalovic have that we don't know about.
 

paulfr

New User
If it is a well-known golf technique, it contradicts your claim that the pros use techniques amateurs don't know anything about.

I can guarantee that several posters on this forum, who are generally between 3.5 and 4.5, know much more about tennis than the pros. They are just not good, that is all. There is NO secret knowledge that Fedalovic have that we don't know about.
Nevermind .... don't know how to cancel the post :-(
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Perhaps
But do you understand and know how to hit Rafa's Forehand ??
I'd love to hear your analysis of what he's doing

That has been analyzed so many times here, and also by other former pros and coaches on the Internet.

Western grip, massive coiling, often a reverse finish, needs more time and hence stands back, uses Bab and poly for maximum spin, and all the characteristics of an ATP forehand like laid back wrist, lag, etc.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes I meant post #63 for the Bautista-Agut video.
You need to put the speed down to 1/4 speed to see it.
It is quite clear to me the ball hits the lower part of his stringbed.
ok lets see some screen shots from that vid to show us what you are seeing.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
So, in this video, I counted 5-7 off center hits, definitely 5 that really twisted the racket in his hand, and a couple that caused a wiggle, but not a real twist...out of almost 25 hits not counting the two or three that are out of frame. The rest are dead center, or darn close. All the strikes are practice shots at what seems like low intensity. If someone were to intentionally try to hit below centerline in order to produce more topspin, wouldn't you think that'd be something they try to ingrain in practice when there is much less on the line?

 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
So, in this video, I counted 5-7 off center hits, definitely 5 that really twisted the racket in his hand, and a couple that caused a wiggle, but not a real twist...out of almost 25 hits not counting the two or three that are out of frame. The rest are dead center, or darn close. All the strikes are practice shots at what seems like low intensity. If someone were to intentionally try to hit below centerline in order to produce more topspin, wouldn't you think that'd be something they try to ingrain in practice when there is much less on the line?

But that’s because Fed is old school. He is not using the modern forehand technique practiced by NextGen players of intentionally hitting off-center. He is a tennis dinosaur.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Power supply frequency, which used to play a role in analog television because initial implementations of PAL and NTSC used the mains frequency as a reference clock, has no role here.

Today, everything is digital. There is NO correlation between power supplies and FPS. Digital circuits derive their clock from a quartz piezo-electric oscillator.

Lighting sources are changing. In checking, I read that older fluorescent fixtures that have ballasts flicker but newer ones with an electronic control have less or none. LEDs.....?

Light output from many light sources has an intensity variation where it peaks once with each voltage peak of the electrical voltage, for positive and negative peaks. For 60 Hz electrical power, sodium or Hg lighting have 120 light peaks per second. If a video camera records a frame every 1/30 sec, 1/60 sec or 1/120, then it tends to capture the same amount of light in each frame and there is no flicker. Maybe 240 fps would still be a problem.....? A similar relation between lighting and video frame rates applies to a county with 50 hz electrical power.

If the lights flicker with 120 peaks per second and your camera records at 25 fps then there would be flicker.

Article discussing light output variations and video frame rates.
.

I believe that Europe has a law that cameras sold there should be 25 fps and perhaps 30 fps is excluded??
 
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Enga

Hall of Fame
I guess it has already been said but Ill just repeat it anyway. I cant think of a good reason not to aim with the center of the racket. You could catch someone off guard with a shot characteristic they didnt expect, but you can also catch them off guard in lots of other ways too.
 

J_Ring

New User
Why and how do advanced players intentionally hit the ball off the center of the strings ?
Do they also hit off center of the ball when not changing direction of the ball ? When and why ?
Thanks for your insight !
I believe a lot of players hit forehands off center on the lower half of the racket to generate more topspin. When the ball hits on the lower half, it is easier for the racket to move over the ball and generate more spin.
 

Hit 'em clean

Semi-Pro
This thread really cracks me up... so many opinions on purported video evidence or pics. People please understand that video and frame images are very misleading because people often lose the context.

You can see what you want to see. How can you judge if a player is trying to hit the sweet spot based on data alone or vids/pics that don’t show what shot the player hits... you can’t see where the ball goes, flight path, etc. Heck you don’t know what the player was trying to achieve... if they were doing what they intended or if it was a mistake... which makes so much of this just wasted energy and time because none of us have the full context.

I’m pretty sure that they are trying to hit the sweet spot or wherever they feel is their spot almost 100% of the time. It’s been said earlier but that’s where the most consistent control, feel, power, etc is. Everything else they do like swing path, racquet face angle, contact point, etc is what they use to create the shot. Like in golf players hit fades and slices, etc not by intentionally missing the sweet spot as that is too unpredictable. They use club swing path and club face angle, etc.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Irrelevant to what you wrote and what I wrote. No pro is going: I will avoid the center of bounce and focus on the center of percussion. The question is about hitting lower on the sweetzone intentionally.

I think there's a better question to be asking here, better than "are there any pros who intentionally hit the lower than the sweetspot?"

IMO The better question is "would pros gain performance benefit they intentionally hit below the sweet spot?"
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
You say the "sweetspot is always the goal"
This is quite logical and certainly true for maximum power.
But not all shots need maximum power. Pace has its place, but an advanced player considers other things
which may be more important like 1/ placement, 2/ depth and 3/ variety [ giving the opponent a "differrent look" ].
***** Hitting below center also makes hitting long less likely so you have a better chance of hitting deep safely. ****

And I have said this topic of hitting below center is for advanced and professional players ONLY.

Look ..... this idea seems weird. I understand.
But top artists in any field use techniques that the average player
knows nothing about. This is true for this idea.

As a point of evidence, when a golfer faces a slippery, short, downhill putt,
a well known technique is to hit the ball on the tip of the putter, NOT the center sweetspot.
This is an INTENTIONAL MISHIT so the ball does NOT come off "hot" which is the last thing you want on a delicate putt.

hitting below centre makes hitting short much more likely which is a disaster in pro tennis.

A tricky downhill putt requires a minimal stroke against a stationary ball. It's an entirely different scenario than hitting a moving target at variable speeds and heights and swinging a full stroke. You could definitely convince me a pro intentionally hits drop volleys off the frame because that would at least be generally achievable with enough hand eye coordination and preparation. But a consistent baseline ground stroke? No way. I don't care how athletic you are. There are limits.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I think there's a better question to be asking here, better than "are there any pros who intentionally hit the lower than the sweetspot?"

IMO The better question is "would pros gain performance benefit they intentionally hit below the sweet spot?"
No its not. Hi Oscar.

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rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Who's oscar?

Why don't you think it's a better question?

Perhaps I could rephrase: I think it's a more interesting question. Leads down more potential avenues.
Who is Oscar? Lol..

I can also ask would a pro have a performance benefit if he intentionally played tennis using his off hand. But that's just silly. Just like your question.



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