Hitting Long - Oscar Wegner's Explanation

JackB1

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Do you guys agree with this and could someone explain it more clearly. It's confusing to me. He says there are 2 reasons for hitting long. One is starting your swing too early and the whip effect is magnified. The 2nd is
accelerating too early. He says you shouldn't accelerate until JUST BEFORE impact. Do you guys agree? Isn't it also possible to hit long by hitting late or not using enough low to high swingpath? He also says below that it's better to be a little late than a little early. This seems to contradict with the belief that you should always try and hit the ball "out in front".

Quote>>>>>

"Should the player start the acceleration sooner than the ball and racquet enter in this area, the hit will lack some control.

There are two ways to violate that safety zone. One is that the ball is not quite where "you think" it is and you start your regular swing too early. At which point the racket head, not having touched the ball, gets the whip effect magnified and the player loses control. That is why it is better to hit the ball slightly late, within that safety zone, than early - the ball will go in.

The other error is accelerating too early, with too much racquet head speed at impact time. It is much better to in order to be safer with your groundstroke, to hold off on racket head speed and acceleration until you are almost touching the ball.

That is why I say "touch" the ball before hitting it. This strange concept is an illusion, not quite "real", but it forces the player to focus and find the ball a lot more, almost exclusive of other factors, while he intends to power and finish the stroke regardless.

Notice, as well, how most pro players massage the ball rather than hit through it. Major muscles, contracting, contribute to connect the body mass (weight) to the chain of physical effort and provide more of a driving force than if you extend through the strike zone. You can include with this the action of loading on the outside foot. Extending the arm beyond impact actually disconnects major muscles that would otherwise connect the body's weight, supporting the stroke.

Contract your biceps and pectorals on your forehand and two-handed backhand, pull your arm in through impact, and you'll have much improvement in your control. Your power and consistency will improve as well."
 
this sounds like more complicated than it needs to be... with a repeatable swing, the central nervous system will know the optimal timing, thru trial and error.
 
Another thing he says that is confusing, is that you shouldn't extend through the ball. That extending beyond impact disconnect the major muscles from the ball.
 
^^ this would be specific to a WW type of motion, and if you look at Davydenko, Klijsters, Kutznetzova, after impact, the arm motions looks as if it never extend beyond the windshield.

this is a different mentality from the classic closed stance hitting thru the ball method.

in the pro world, the modern style is dominating... but for recreational players, both can work.
 
He says you shouldn't accelerate until JUST BEFORE impact.
Click to expand...

Major source of debate between MTM people and non-MTMers (i.e. rest of us.) However, I agree with the point it and "catching" the ball are more visualization techniques than literal movements.

MTM teaches the stroke in opposite order from conventional style. They start with the finish (or wiper movement), and then progressively work toward the unit turn.
 
It makes sense to me. I don't really find anything wrong with it. Hitting the ball out in front and hitting early don't directly correlate. Hitting early would be "too far" out in front.

I like the touch the ball imagery for learners. I think it helps them to visually locate the contact as well as help them to learn some feel for the ball.
 
I"m no master on technique, but 95% of the time my shots go long, it would go IN if I'd hit it lower to the net. My mistake, I clear the net by too much.
 
"too much topspin"....
That happens when your strongest forcing shot is a known sitter, because you hit a million rpm, and the ball goes barely 30 mph, giving your opponent a year to figure out and execute his winning shot against you.
 
Hitting long is often associated with strings getting loose/old or not finishing the swing. It is also strongly associated with not putting enough top on strokes and the ball just travels in a rainbow curve. Lots of players hit long when they consistently run through shots or as LeeD said, they hit way too far above the net. Can be a factor of grip and having the racquet face bent back at contact.

So, it might be related to one of these, combination of them or probably many other factors like too much power.

Although I'm not an MTM person, I do see his newletter every once in a while - yesterday or today, forget which, I did see the article your referring too.
 
NLBwell has it right, opening you racket face is probably the main reason for most long balls.

Be careful with Oscar's stuff. He is great but I don't think he has everything right. Federer and Nadal do occasionally not extend on forehands but on the vast majority of their shots they do extend up and thru the ball quite a bit. Tennis magazine has a hi-speed sequence of Fed's forehand and you could see his forehand follow thru go out to almost full extension before it wrapped around the left side of his body. Go to fuzzyyellowballs.com pro strokes to see slow-mo of many pros extending even on windshield wiper forehands. They go out and then wipe across to the left side. The degree of upward angle varies depending on how much top you want.

I will admit you will occasionally see practically no extension or a short extension before pulling across. But, I think this is used rarely and primarily for out of position shots - possibly a half-volley ground stroke or when late or trying to get excessive spin. I think the pros get good extension on 95+++% of their forehands. Joko and Berdych extend well out before they wrap too.

Extension is a fundamental that I would not vary. I think it helps with control and power.
 
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NLBwell said:
Hitting long is generally because your racket face is too open.
Tennis isn't that complicated a sport.
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Exactly. Most players have a pretty set stroke pattern, so the racquet face at contact is most times the variable that changes. It does not account for every ball hit long, but the majority of them.
 
Oscar Wegner said:
The other error is accelerating too early, with too much racquet head speed at impact time. It is much better to in order to be safer with your groundstroke, to hold off on racket head speed and acceleration until you are almost touching the ball.
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I have always assumed that the racquet head acceleration and the resulting speed varies throughout the swing. This statement sounds like Mr. Wegner is advocating for a compact swing that doesn't start (accelerating) until the last minute?

Or may be by 'racket head speed' he was actually referring to the last minute pronation?

patricia-mayr-wta.jpg
 
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I think he's working on a different level than the data analysis stuff that happens on these boards a lot. He's coaching using imagery. It really doesn't matter at all what you think you're doing when you hit the ball, just that you are doing the right thing.

One thing I learned early on is that many people have an image in their mind that they are doing one thing when they are really doing something else.

I think what he is describing in the quote posted above is stated the way it is in order to elicit a certain action on the part of his students. I don't know whether or not he believes that in reality it mirrors what should actually occur or not, but I like the image it portrays in terms of producing a solid stroke in a learner.
 
LeeD said:
"too much topspin"....
That happens when your strongest forcing shot is a known sitter, because you hit a million rpm, and the ball goes barely 30 mph, giving your opponent a year to figure out and execute his winning shot against you.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I know that book, it saved my serve. I know there is a web site and I am told there are coaches who teach his method. It would be great to have a DVD......

Do you know how many RPM Federer or Nadal or Venus (they follow Wegner) hit with?
 
Don't matter how many RPM's Nadal and Federer hit, because I"m not facing them on the tennis courts anyways.
At 4-5.5 levels, nobody who just adds topspin on every shot is going to blow me away, as I can flat block or hard slice it to make them run back and forth.
Once they hit a combination of topspin and pace, they bagel me.
Nobody at lower levels can hit with pure topspin and expect to win any matches against equal players. You need topspin to keep the ball in the court, but you need placement, change of pace and spin, deception, and your own good movement to WIN the point.
Don't believe me? Go play a match with FabriceSantoro, and tell me how effective your heavy topspin is.
 
LeeD said:
Don't matter how many RPM's Nadal and Federer hit, because I"m not facing them on the tennis courts anyways.
At 4-5.5 levels, nobody who just adds topspin on every shot is going to blow me away, as I can flat block or hard slice it to make them run back and forth.
Once they hit a combination of topspin and pace, they bagel me.
Nobody at lower levels can hit with pure topspin and expect to win any matches against equal players. You need topspin to keep the ball in the court, but you need placement, change of pace and spin, deception, and your own good movement to WIN the point.
Don't believe me? Go play a match with FabriceSantoro, and tell me how effective your heavy topspin is.
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Little overbearing are not you? And you go and try too.....The beauty of topspin IS that you can hit as hard as you want, but the ball goes down :)
 
You don't get it.
97% of us cannot hit with enough topspin to force any issue, as we're not strong enough, can't swing out hard enough often enough, and will mishit or place the ball poorly short, and and equal level opponent just steps in and blocks it DTL for a forcing approach.
Not YOU, not I, not anyone on these forums can hit with enough topspin to bother an equal level opponent.
Topspin is nice to have, but it is not the endall to effective tennis. There are at least 6 components more important than topspin, more if you include the mental aspect of tennis.
Nobody ever beat anyone with just pure topspin.
 
What Oscar is saying with regard to technique makes a lot of sense to me. I think "extension" in this context means extending the arm using the relatively weaker transverse shoulder adduction movement, which is the usual imagery the phrase "hit through the ball" evokes. Of course, the racquet still goes through the ball, even in Oscar's world I hope :), but using more of the core, the biceps, and big muscles in general, than a weak flailing of the arm.

All this aside, one completely unrelated reason why my forehand goes long is because I get too tight in a rally and clutch the racquet in a death grip... I'm still still working on it.
 
eliza said:
I disagree. I know that book, it saved my serve. I know there is a web site and I am told there are coaches who teach his method. It would be great to have a DVD......

Do you know how many RPM Federer or Nadal or Venus (they follow Wegner) hit with?
Click to expand...

They do?.........
 
LeeD said:
You don't get it.
97% of us cannot hit with enough topspin to force any issue, as we're not strong enough, can't swing out hard enough often enough, and will mishit or place the ball poorly short, and and equal level opponent just steps in and blocks it DTL for a forcing approach.
Not YOU, not I, not anyone on these forums can hit with enough topspin to bother an equal level opponent.
Topspin is nice to have, but it is not the endall to effective tennis. There are at least 6 components more important than topspin, more if you include the mental aspect of tennis.
Nobody ever beat anyone with just pure topspin.
Click to expand...

^ This. I wish more people understood what you are saying here.

While others spend gazillions of hours trying to figure out how to put huge RPMs of topspin on a ball...... I was out mastering a forehand dropshot and slice. While others were trying to figure out how to do a buggy-whip finish.... I was out mastering a hard, flat cross-court shot. While others were trying to figure out how to put lead tape on the top of their racquet for optimum performance... I was out mastering my volleys.

I welcome the 4.0 or 4.5 player who wants to try to impress me with their hyooouge RPM. Meanwhile, I'm just going to take that pace, remove it, and drop shot and win the point.

To eliza: The message, flatly put, is that you need a more complete game to beat a decent player. Even Nadal would lose if he wasn't able to volley, slice, and drop shot. Give up on the RPM game. Fill out the holes in the rest of your game.
 
JackB1 said:
Do you guys agree with this and could someone explain it more clearly. It's confusing to me. He says there are 2 reasons for hitting long. One is starting your swing too early and the whip effect is magnified. The 2nd is
accelerating too early. He says you shouldn't accelerate until JUST BEFORE impact. Do you guys agree? Isn't it also possible to hit long by hitting late or not using enough low to high swingpath? He also says below that it's better to be a little late than a little early. This seems to contradict with the belief that you should always try and hit the ball "out in front".
Click to expand...

Hopefully i can be of some help here.
I would expect that Oscar is talking about players here, as newbies can always make errors that no one can anticipate, lol.
While in MTM we do greatly emphasis the finish, I can't agree with Tricky that we teach it backwards. Our sequence is
- stalk it
- reach across (off hand) and start the loop (racket hand)
- find the ball (get excellent alignment for contact)
- accelerate right at contact ( just before with strong pull up and across)
- finish (this usually will indicate a lot about your accel up and across)

Yes, hitting out front is good, but like anything, only to a point. Just like on serving, if you toss too far into the court you will push it long or pull it down into the net. On ground strokes you will tend to get an extra push, taking the shot long, if you contact too far in front.

On the second point, too much early acceleration will lead to many of the errors mentioned, such as racket face too open and too much ball height over the net.
Working for perfect ball alignment, "finding the ball", leads to super string contact, less racket face errors, and strengthens the bodies connection to the racket at just the right moment, with increase the mass at contact. When you accel too early the connection to the body mass is lost as the racket has been essentially throw out on it's own with mostly just it's small amount of mass in the hitting equation.
 
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While in MTM we do greatly emphasis the finish, I can't agree with Tricky that we teach it backwards.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. My impression is that the MTM teaching progression goes from Finish to Unit Turn. Basically, you guys let the person kinda fill in their takeback and then the unit turn as they learn to finish and stalk the ball. Not true?
 
Excuse me, is the topic of the thread how to execute a shot Wegner's method, or how to develop a winning all court player?:evil:
 
5263 said:
Hopefully i can be of some help here.
I would expect that Oscar is talking about players here, as newbies can always make errors that no one can anticipate, lol.
While in MTM we do greatly emphasis the finish, I can't agree with Tricky that we teach it backwards. Our sequence is
- stalk it
- reach across (off hand) and start the loop (racket hand)
- find the ball (get excellent alignment for contact)
- accelerate right at contact ( just before with strong pull up and across)
- finish (this usually will indicate a lot about your accel up and across)

Yes, hitting out front is good, but like anything, only to a point. Just like on serving, if you toss too far into the court you will push it long or pull it down into the net. On ground strokes you will tend to get an extra push, taking the shot long, if you contact too far in front.

On the second point, too much early acceleration will lead to many of the errors mentioned, such as racket face too open and too much ball height over the net.
Working for perfect ball alignment, "finding the ball", leads to super string contact, less racket face errors, and strengthens the bodies connection to the racket at just the right moment, with increases the mass at contact. When you accel too early the connection to the body mass is lost as the racket has been essentially throw out on it's own with mostly just it's small amount of mass in the hitting equation.
Click to expand...

Alleluja.
Thank you very much for your post. Gratefully, E
 
Neither, but you can make of it anything your want, that's the beauty of internet forums.
There is one operative word on the title... EXPLANATION ! His view.
 
eliza said:
Excuse me, is the topic of the thread how to execute a shot Wegner's method, or how to develop a winning all court player?:evil:
Click to expand...

this thread asks about Wegner's method.

Tricky, I still think it comes more to emphasis more than reversing of the order. We don't focus on too many things at one time and the "focus" right at the start is on the finish, but we are not starting with it, as the stalking is where we start in a subtle fashion. While we do start with letting them fill in on the loop etc... we do hint and shape as we go.
 
LeeD said:
Neither, but you can make of it anything your want, that's the beauty of internet forums.
There is one operative word on the title... EXPLANATION ! His view.
Click to expand...

Do you agree that we are talking about a process (sequence of steps) in order to execute shots, according to the theory of Mr. Wegner?
 
5263 said:
this thread asks about Wegner's method.

Tricky, I still think it comes more to emphasis more than reversing of the order. We don't focus on too many things at one time and the "focus" right at the start is on the finish, but we are not starting with it, as the stalking is where we start in a subtle fashion. While we do start with letting them fill in on the loop etc... we do hint and shape as we go.
Click to expand...

No kidding
 
I think "extension" in this context means extending the arm using the relatively weaker transverse shoulder adduction movement, which is the usual imagery the phrase "hit through the ball" evokes.
Click to expand...

From a biomechanical perspective, that's where you see different points of view on the WW FH. In terms of learning the WW FH, I put more value on transverse shoulder adduction than shoulder rotation, because it's very easy to lose that. With that goes depth and pace.

FYB discusses how there are basically two different WW styles. The style associated with Federer and Nadal enables free wiping motion without impeding transverse shoulder adduction. This enables a heavy ball with less effort and time.
 
Hi, guys

:):):)Interesting discussion. To simplify matters, the MTM sytem divides the sequence in three aspects, symbolically called the three Fs. Find it, Feel it and Finish. This is applicable to any level of players. Beyond that, for over 40 years I have recommended WW topspin, open stance forehands and two-handed backhands (and sideways for the one handed backhand), tracking the ball as long as possible with the racquet in front (that generates the unit turn in a natural way, without forcing it), the full finish on groundstrokes (pointing the butt of the racquet to your placement of the ball), stopping the hand through the impact on the volley, hitting up and pronation on the serve, practicing over a string three feet above the net, hitting serves from the outside of the court and over the fence, a multitude of things that are now common knowledge and shown on the Tennis Channel.

As these techniques developed into highest gear, and knowing that the players liked the power and spins associated with these methodology, I noticed that more and more, with the new racquets developing excessive power, the players excelled more when they started pulling across than when they went forward. In their own words, they felt more confident and assured that the ball was going in. One of them, an incredible champion and athlete that I had the pleasure to coach for one month in 1992, after he had retired for 10 years, only needed to be reminded of what he did before retirement to get back his "lost" game back.

My question became, more than forty years ago: if these techniques helped the great, why couldn't they help beginners, intermediates and advanced? So I encourage the players I coached to do more of it and let me know if they felt it worked. They told me they felt it helped. Others watched my tapes or my tv shows or read my books. How many? I have no idea, but I heard from coaches, parents or players from Thailand to Brazil, Argentina, Spain, USA. Even Chinese coaches. Some of their students became top players, including a number one from Brazil and two girls from the USA.

If it worked for them, could it work for others? Counseled by a dear friend of mine, I recently released the Tennis Into the Future series knowing that I would be thought crazy again. It id create a new storm. Who in their right mind would recommend to hit like a whip, where you go forward and then pull your arm back to strike? Who in their right mind would pull or step backwards to help the whip rather than stepping into the ball? Well, the future will tell. Meanwhile, give it a little try and let us all know know the results in this wonderful forum, and please e mail me at tennisoscar@aol.com
 
Thanks Oscar!

Always good to hear from you when you get a chance to drop a line on here and let the members hear directly from you. And thanks for that newsletter that you provide for free to anyone who is interested in signing up. I believe it's content was the start of this interesting thread.
 
Wegner said:
:):):)Interesting discussion. To simplify matters, the MTM sytem divides the sequence in three aspects, symbolically called the three Fs. Find it, Feel it and Finish. This is applicable to any level of players. Beyond that, for over 40 years I have recommended WW topspin, open stance forehands and two-handed backhands (and sideways for the one handed backhand), tracking the ball as long as possible with the racquet in front (that generates the unit turn in a natural way, without forcing it), the full finish on groundstrokes (pointing the butt of the racquet to your placement of the ball), stopping the hand through the impact on the volley, hitting up and pronation on the serve, practicing over a string three feet above the net, hitting serves from the outside of the court and over the fence, a multitude of things that are now common knowledge and shown on the Tennis Channel.

As these techniques developed into highest gear, and knowing that the players liked the power and spins associated with these methodology, I noticed that more and more, with the new racquets developing excessive power, the players excelled more when they started pulling across than when they went forward. In their own words, they felt more confident and assured that the ball was going in. One of them, an incredible champion and athlete that I had the pleasure to coach for one month in 1992, after he had retired for 10 years, only needed to be reminded of what he did before retirement to get back his "lost" game back.

My question became, more than forty years ago: if these techniques helped the great, why couldn't they help beginners, intermediates and advanced? So I encourage the players I coached to do more of it and let me know if they felt it worked. They told me they felt it helped. Others watched my tapes or my tv shows or read my books. How many? I have no idea, but I heard from coaches, parents or players from Thailand to Brazil, Argentina, Spain, USA. Even Chinese coaches. Some of their students became top players, including a number one from Brazil and two girls from the USA.

If it worked for them, could it work for others? Counseled by a dear friend of mine, I recently released the Tennis Into the Future series knowing that I would be thought crazy again. It id create a new storm. Who in their right mind would recommend to hit like a whip, where you go forward and then pull your arm back to strike? Who in their right mind would pull or step backwards to help the whip rather than stepping into the ball? Well, the future will tell. Meanwhile, give it a little try and let us all know know the results in this wonderful forum, and please e mail me at tennisoscar@aol.com
Click to expand...

You do not mind if I e-mail you too? I am the odd here, would be nice to ask you questions (promise, not too many). Thanks
 
Oh, since Mr. Wegner is too humble, the champs mentioned are Gustavo, Venus, Serena etc etc.
I met a Mario Cabral few years ago who loved this school, and he went to Roland Garros..........
Thank you again, I truly hope to find a coach that follows your method.
 
eliza said:
Oh, since Mr. Wegner is too humble, the champs mentioned are Gustavo, Venus, Serena etc etc.
I met a Mario Cabral few years ago who loved this school, and he went to Roland Garros..........
Thank you again, I truly hope to find a coach that follows your method.
Click to expand...

where are you located? maybe I can point you to one.
 
Wegner said:
If it worked for them, could it work for others? Counseled by a dear friend of mine, I recently released the Tennis Into the Future series knowing that I would be thought crazy again. It id create a new storm. Who in their right mind would recommend to hit like a whip, where you go forward and then pull your arm back to strike? Who in their right mind would pull or step backwards to help the whip rather than stepping into the ball? Well, the future will tell. Meanwhile, give it a little try and let us all know know the results in this wonderful forum, and please e mail me at tennisoscar@aol.com
Click to expand...

Oscar, there is definitely more of a trend towards "rotational power" as opposed to "linear power" of shifting and stepping "into' the ball. This same trend happened in baseball about 15 years ago and is still going strong. The thinking is that when you use the body's core and natural winding/unwinding motion, it's more powerful and repeatable than trying to time a weight shift and step in. It's also more versatile for times when you are airborn and cannot plant and shift.

I do like you idea of accelerating JUST BEFORE impact. It allows your arm to be relaxed and loose when you start the swing. If you start fast right away, you will probably muscle the ball or get your timing messed up.
 
JackB1 said:
Oscar, there is definitely more of a trend towards "rotational power" as opposed to "linear power" of shifting and stepping "into' the ball. This same trend happened in baseball about 15 years ago and is still going strong. The thinking is that when you use the body's core and natural winding/unwinding motion, it's more powerful and repeatable than trying to time a weight shift and step in. It's also more versatile for times when you are airborn and cannot plant and shift.

I do like you idea of accelerating JUST BEFORE impact. It allows your arm to be relaxed and loose when you start the swing. If you start fast right away, you will probably muscle the ball or get your timing messed up.
Click to expand...

well stated
 
5263 said:
where are you located? maybe I can point you to one.
Click to expand...

Right now I am in MI.
You know what is great about this site? It confirmed so many ideas I had but could not discuss, as I am a woman, worker, recreational sucking player.
I firmly believe girls and adult ladies should be given the chance of learning the Wegner's method. Since I came back I had to hit flat, and every time I tried to tell the coach I remembered a different grip/stroke I would get the roll-up eyes.........I was told I could never have a good serve. Well, I read Wegner's book, I practise two hours (Honest to God) and for the FIRST time in my entire life I get an ace and another perfect Kick!!! It was an exilarating feeling, a "I can do it!!!!". Coaches out there, you have no idea how powerful your words and methods can be, you are molding a person's future.
And as for tournaments/USTA leagues, think how many baby boomers will soon retire.
Would not this be the best time to build a program for Grown up players (I hate the term OLD). Good for health, good for the goverment, good for the business, good for the sport!!!!!!
Seriously, I am so happy I came back to tennis, and hope in the future not only to become better, but to be somehow involved....
 
tricky said:
FYB discusses how there are basically two different WW styles. The style associated with Federer and Nadal enables free wiping motion without impeding transverse shoulder adduction. This enables a heavy ball with less effort and time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the FYB pointer, tricky - I will look it up.
 
I am watching a rerun of Murray-Dolgo now, and Murray has his racquet well back before the ball even bounces. All this find and feel stuff works only at beginner levels where the ball is very slow. Even at the higher club levels, early takeback and timing through repeated practice is the only way to excel.
 
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