5263
G.O.A.T.
And while Murry is a fantastic defender and all-round performer, his Fh is the least top 10 level shot in his game.
Hitting Long - Oscar Wegner's Explanation
- Thread starter JackB1
- Start date
And while Murry is a fantastic defender and all-round performer, his Fh is the least top 10 level shot in his game.
mightyrick
Legend
Yeah, and its a good thing that Dolgopolov isn't consistent.
If Dolgopolov was as consistent in that match as he was in earlier matches, Murray loses that match. The only reason Murray got by in that match was because of Dolgopolov's nine million unforced errors.
Tricky 'by transverse' you mean swinging through the ball more. Is that a transverse shoulder action?
FWIW I wish more pros would start teaching the WW from the get go like he does. I don't really care for his footwork theories that much but it's hard to argue with this.
I see how the extension thing is an issue but I think he is just advocating against the very old style of swinging through the ball and holding your finish out to the target.
Nowadays almost few pros - not even on the women's side hit with an OTS finish - its either the Rafa style lasso finish or the WW finish. These clearly are the two shots people should be learning, IMHO.
Plenty of pros still won't teach these shots - maybe because they didn't learn them. You actually have to go out and find a pro that hits with the WW finish before you should take lessons from them..
FWIW I wish more pros would start teaching the WW from the get go like he does. I don't really care for his footwork theories that much but it's hard to argue with this.
I see how the extension thing is an issue but I think he is just advocating against the very old style of swinging through the ball and holding your finish out to the target.
Nowadays almost few pros - not even on the women's side hit with an OTS finish - its either the Rafa style lasso finish or the WW finish. These clearly are the two shots people should be learning, IMHO.
Plenty of pros still won't teach these shots - maybe because they didn't learn them. You actually have to go out and find a pro that hits with the WW finish before you should take lessons from them..
Yes. It's a basic part of all strokes, but its role is often given lower priority (though not always) when learning the WW FH. One important difference between straight-arm FH, mild double bend, and strong double-bend is how much transversal movement is expressed in the movement, given a certain grip.
In traditional FH instruction, it's emphasized pretty early on (i.e. importance of hitting through the ball.) Whereas, I think, MTM says this should not be emphasized at all, because the player will learn to control and vary their depth as a matter of game situation.
FWIW, this is one the gray area issues when learning/teaching WW FHs as opposed to the traditional or old school style. You basically have two major versions of the WW FHs, and there's some subtle stuff that makes it one or the other.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
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gauchotennis
New User
tenniscoachFLA,
right on the money.
what makes a ball go long is the racquet face.
what causes the racquet face to open is entirely different issue.
on a serve at some point based upon the servers height and racquet head speed there comes a point that topspin really has to be applied to insure a safety margin to have the ball come into the box but the spin becomes important at speeds faster than 70 mph.
The federer forehand video shows a vertical racquet face at impact, 95% of all shot are vertical at impact so if that happen the better your chances are of getting the ball in the court
It's something that FYB talked about, though I've mentioned it too in other threads.
WW Forehand A (Djokovic, Murray, Roddick, Blake)
1) Strong double bend (i.e. so-so extension) at contact point
2) Steeper angle in forward swing (esp. with more extreme grips)
3) Loopy backswing
4) Elbow traces an arc to produce wiping motion
5) Contact height dependent on grip
6) Defensive topspin with ability to hit big, but flat
WW Forehand B (Federer, Nadal, Safin, Verdasco)
1) Weaker double-bend (i.e. more extension)
2) Flat swing angle, even with extreme grips
3) Straight backswing
4) Forearm pivots around elbow to produce wiping action
5) More flexible contact hight
6) Straight arm at contact point (sometimes)
7) Heavy shotmaking, but less margin for error
How would you describe Soderling's straight arm forehand? Like B but more so? A different category?
Soderling would fit under A. Even though his backswing straightens out, he still hits the ball with a strong double-bend. Whether the backswing straightens or retains a bent structure actually has no relationship with whether the forward swing will have a straight or bent structure. Each are caused by different things and function independently of each other. It's just that Federer and Nadal (at least a few years back) have that characteristic in both the takeback and forward swing.
5263
G.O.A.T.
thanks for taking the time.
I guess I can see where the players you mention may favor one of these directions over the other,
but feel there quite a bit of bleed over between
the groups and players. I know I hit the ww from both of these descriptions.
I can see the value in knowing the differences when teaching as well.
E
eliza
Guest
Any chances you will come to Detroit, MI (eheheh)? I would gladly offer you hospitality............
You need to move out of there
E
eliza
Guest
Are you going to get me a job? Because I could move tomorrow...I just finished shoveling (again!)......
Are you going to get me a job? Because I could move tomorrow...I just finished shoveling (again!)......
I am off to a tennis meetup in the warm sun. Talk to you later.
Hewex
Semi-Pro
Wow,
What a cool thread! I'm actually watching all of Oscar DVD's today and to see posts from Oscar is amazing!! I somehow went away from his method in the last 9 months of 2010. But, plan on going back to it tomorrow at drills. Especially since I was encouraged to go with the modern forehand in my thread on technique.
One image I especially love and was successful for me, is "holding the edge" and moving left on my forehand. That allowed me to have nice topspin, depth, and avoided my dumping it into the net(lowww into the net, LOL). I am going to use that from now on. It is funny how we get away from something that works.
I'm wondering how you all view that imagery, if it is something you think about or do naturally.
I would love to see his clinics, but I am in snowy Chicago
What a cool thread! I'm actually watching all of Oscar DVD's today and to see posts from Oscar is amazing!! I somehow went away from his method in the last 9 months of 2010. But, plan on going back to it tomorrow at drills. Especially since I was encouraged to go with the modern forehand in my thread on technique.
One image I especially love and was successful for me, is "holding the edge" and moving left on my forehand. That allowed me to have nice topspin, depth, and avoided my dumping it into the net(lowww into the net, LOL). I am going to use that from now on. It is funny how we get away from something that works.
I'm wondering how you all view that imagery, if it is something you think about or do naturally.
I would love to see his clinics, but I am in snowy Chicago
5263
G.O.A.T.
Wow,
What a cool thread! I'm actually watching all of Oscar DVD's today and to see posts from Oscar is amazing!! I somehow went away from his method in the last 9 months of 2010. But, plan on going back to it tomorrow at drills. Especially since I was encouraged to go with the modern forehand in my thread on technique.
One image I especially love and was successful for me, is "holding the edge" and moving left on my forehand. That allowed me to have nice topspin, depth, and avoided my dumping it into the net(lowww into the net, LOL). I am going to use that from now on. It is funny how we get away from something that works.
I'm wondering how you all view that imagery, if it is something you think about or do naturally.
I would love to see his clinics, but I am in snowy Chicago
Glad you found the Oscar/MTM techniques and enjoyed success with them.
I taught in a more tradition way for years before I began to experiment with some more modern approaches with some good success. I had heard of Oscar, but not paid too much attention due to all the skepticism you hear here in the US. But after awhile I looked to see what he was doing that drew so much attention, positive and negative.
Right away I realized that he had a system that incorporated all the modern things I had figured out along with a lot more that I had not gotten to yet. Even though I was initially skeptical of some issues like "waiting" and finding the ball before accel up and across, but with each issue, I found that he was right on the money. His system can really be helpful for those who can let go of some things they had been sure of in the past and make room for a new perspective.
Hewex
Semi-Pro
Thank you for the advice sir! When I was using his method, I was hitting so many shots in the sweet spot that I was fraying the strings. I had some set-backs, so I questioned the the technique instead of the execution. So many of us look for the quick fix when it comes to equipment or method and jump to something else at the first sign of imperfection. Now, I know what I have to do. If feel good to be committed to a racquet and a technique. It takes some of the guesswork out of playing.
E
eliza
Guest
Hewex, could you please give me more details for the DVDs? Where did you buy them?
For me it was like : Listen to your guts, instead of "racquet back! Racquet back!"(and I was complaining that I could not run to the ball and keep my racquet back)........
You should have seen me the last drill I took: the "Pro"puts the ladies at baseline and gives instructions (E grip, left foot forward etc.) I remain in open stance and when I get my ball it flies and he goes :"Wow we have a weapon here...."
I was going to reply: Yeah, b/c you saw how I hit....DO NOT MESS UP WITH MY TENNIS!!!!
But I just told him I disagreed with his closed stance, and please allow me to hit how I feel best. Of course, roll of the eyes, and explanation to the others: the way she hits is not for you, she is going to be tired soon, blahblah
I am reading his book again, and God I wish I could get one lesson if not with him with one of his followers.....
Suresh I do envy you, you are lucky.
I can't but work hard and pray for a better future......
For me it was like : Listen to your guts, instead of "racquet back! Racquet back!"(and I was complaining that I could not run to the ball and keep my racquet back)........
You should have seen me the last drill I took: the "Pro"puts the ladies at baseline and gives instructions (E grip, left foot forward etc.) I remain in open stance and when I get my ball it flies and he goes :"Wow we have a weapon here...."
I was going to reply: Yeah, b/c you saw how I hit....DO NOT MESS UP WITH MY TENNIS!!!!
But I just told him I disagreed with his closed stance, and please allow me to hit how I feel best. Of course, roll of the eyes, and explanation to the others: the way she hits is not for you, she is going to be tired soon, blahblah
I am reading his book again, and God I wish I could get one lesson if not with him with one of his followers.....
Suresh I do envy you, you are lucky.
I can't but work hard and pray for a better future......
tlm
G.O.A.T.
Great post.
Hewex
Semi-Pro
Eliza,
There are a total of 10 DVD's which have around 600 minutes of instruction. Some are from 2003 and there are some from 2009. I hope this helps you. I've found them to be very interesting. What I like is that he sticks with a core philosphy, such as "find, stalk or track the ball". There is some repetition, and some of the DVD's or lessons will strike you better than others. But, over all well worth the money. I'd love to find a teacher of his methods. So, if anyone knows one in the Chicago area.
Here is a link, I hope it helps you. The DVD;s are available there.
http://www.tennisteacher.com/
E
eliza
Guest
Hewex, thank you so much. I trust you will find a coach, I know your city has a magnificent Opera House (with a true program!!!) and Museums etc.etc. and when I was there people was just so nice to me.....
We have 4 teaching pros here in the club, all middle aged and beyond, and not one teaches like that. The pros do either of two things when running for groundies: they either take their racquet back in proportion to the distance from the ball (closer to the ball, more racquet back) so that they have time to meet the ball on the forward swing, or if they are confident, they will actually take their racquet back and forward very fast once they are close to the ball. Andy Roddick often does the second. They never position their racquet back like a tail and run awkwardly with it. No one has done that, from Laver to Djokovic, and there is nothing modern about it. It is an imaginary problem which has been corrected with an imaginary teaching.
E
eliza
Guest
The second seems to be in line with Oscar's teachings....Stalk the ball, get close, do not commit until it bounces, then swing and FINISH.
I do not know why, but I keep the racquet kind of aside (R or L, for FH or BH) then I do this loop that to the Pro here is awful. And then what ticks him off is that my finish is on the elbow (or maybe between shoulder and elbow)
Oh, well, how am I going to get the momentum? To me is like a pendulum: I let the racquet loop, then get down, then contact the ball.....Maybe is ugly, but it works for me. I truly hope to get a video I can post for you guys to comment/criticize....
I bought a Wegner's DVD today, can't wait.....
As you can probably guess, this is one of the things that pros do. For example, I saw Clijsters come to the net for a short slow ball, wait till her opponent commited to a move in a particular direction, THEN swung her racquet and put the ball on the opposite side. Now what kind of ball was it? A slow, short ball.
And then you will see the pros with their racquet started to take back an instant BEFORE the ball bounces, and complete by the time the ball has finished bouncing, with their anticipation skills, to meet a ball hit with a lot of pace.
It depends on your level, the incoming ball, and anticipation skills. Waiting to commit after the ball bounces is probably good advice for beginner levels, as I pointed out earlier. Play an advanced player, even having him just hit straight at you. The first thing you will notice is that you can never complete the takeback soon enough and are perenially late. Hence the advice on early takeback and it is done by all pros on faster balls.
BTW about "get close" LOL at that. Wouldn't every player wish he was close to shots hit by Fed or Nadal or Djokovic? You think Murray was thinking "geez I wish someone had told me to be close to the ball." LOL at such advice.
