got into a disscussion with a friend that even on flat serves you have to hit up on the serve to get it into the box unless your contact point is 12 ft or so above the grond meaning you would have to be 9 ft tall or something like that. does anyone have the link to the picture of the line from contact to the service box which shows the height and geometry. anything else ican do to support my position would be appreciated. my friend is 6'4 and beleives he hits down on his flat serve
Hitting Up On The Serve
- Thread starter larry10s
- Start date
mikeler
Moderator
My coach used to always say this and the geometry never made sense on a flat serve. A kick serve is a different story because I've seen shorter guys hit it and the ball does go up a little bit before it comes back down.
Depends how tall and how fast you hit the ball.
At my 5'11", for 115 flat first serves, I basically hit straight out, not up, not down, for it to go in. Slower serves need to be hit higher.
Tall guys with harder serves hit dowward.
5'5" guys have to hit slightly upwards on all serves, but most can't get a flat serve into the opponent's service court.
At my 5'11", for 115 flat first serves, I basically hit straight out, not up, not down, for it to go in. Slower serves need to be hit higher.
Tall guys with harder serves hit dowward.
5'5" guys have to hit slightly upwards on all serves, but most can't get a flat serve into the opponent's service court.
Tennis Dunce
Semi-Pro
Also platform stance=more horizontal drive
pinpoint stance=more vertical drive
pinpoint stance=more vertical drive
split-step
Professional
My best friend and I stat each other's matches.
My first serve percentage averages at 62%. (My first serves are almost always flat serves. I throw in the occasional slice serve)
I don't hit up on my flat serve. At least it doesn't feel like I do. I hit forward/outward.
I do make sure my toss is high and I am reaching up for the ball.
This may cause me to hit up on the ball unknowingly.
My first serve percentage averages at 62%. (My first serves are almost always flat serves. I throw in the occasional slice serve)
I don't hit up on my flat serve. At least it doesn't feel like I do. I hit forward/outward.
I do make sure my toss is high and I am reaching up for the ball.
This may cause me to hit up on the ball unknowingly.
gzhpcu
Professional
Every fast serve has a combination of topspin and slice spin. We need some topspin to force the ball down into the court. Less on a flat serve, but still there nonetheless. This means that the racket at impact, to achieve this bit of topspin, must be going upwards a bit.
agree completely .also that there is spin on a flat serve . the spin on the flat serve i can convince my friend now that i have a source to show my friend. i still need back up if your diagram is not enough. anyone else with more data proving you dont hit down on the serve.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Do you have a sheet, or software you use?
I want to chart my matches when I start recording them.
J
split-step
Professional
We have a sheet.
I can't remember where we got it; my buddy downloaded it from some website and then we made changes.
It is not very extensive.
We keep track for winners, and errors broken down by forehand, backhand, fh volley, bh volley and overhead.
We also keep track of 1st serves made, 1st serve pts won, 2nd serves made, 2nd serve pts won and double faults.
The tally of 1st serves made, 2nd serves made and doublefaults gives the total serves which we use to calculate the percentages.
THe last thing we stat is returns
1st serve return made, 1st serve return missed, 2nd serve return made, 2nd serve return missed.
This is so we can chart the % of returns got into play.
My friend puts it in a spreadsheet which calculates the stats.
I can't remember where we got it; my buddy downloaded it from some website and then we made changes.
It is not very extensive.
We keep track for winners, and errors broken down by forehand, backhand, fh volley, bh volley and overhead.
We also keep track of 1st serves made, 1st serve pts won, 2nd serves made, 2nd serve pts won and double faults.
The tally of 1st serves made, 2nd serves made and doublefaults gives the total serves which we use to calculate the percentages.
THe last thing we stat is returns
1st serve return made, 1st serve return missed, 2nd serve return made, 2nd serve return missed.
This is so we can chart the % of returns got into play.
My friend puts it in a spreadsheet which calculates the stats.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
That is pretty neat. I will do a google search, and if that doesn't turn anything up, I will start a thread.
J
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I got your e-mail asking me to comment on this thread. But I am a little unsure of what you are asking, or trying to convince your friend of. Are you talking about the service motion itself, or ball trajectory?
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Addendum: Here is one of my flatter deliveries if you wanted to ask me something about it.
http://vimeo.com/3793468
J
http://vimeo.com/3793468
J
gzhpcu
Professional
It is certainly the latter, unless you are as tall as Wilt Chamberlain....
Will try and find some additional references for you...
nousername
Rookie
the truth is both are correct.
the main difficulty in talking about this issue is that one must distinguish between racket attitude and racket velocity. the concept of "hitting up" is in regard to velocity, meaning the velocity of the racket at contact has forward AND upward components. this is true for ALL serves: flat, kick, slice ... the link in post #8 of this thread proves that point. it's extremely important for serve development that one realizes this misnomer of a "flat" serve: i.e. it should NOT be flat!!!
BUT, as you point out, it is also true that the attitude of the racket face will be downward (actually, only very slightly downward) at contact. gravity and spin do the most work to bring the ball down into the service box, that is why only a slight downward attitude is necessary.
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gzhpcu
Professional
Could very well be: racket face angled slightly down, but moving up. Serve is a pretty complex movement...
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Almost straight out, and gravity and spin bring the ball down, if I am hitting down, it is slightly, certainly not at an angle that would send the ball into the service box on a line.
J
nousername
Rookie
i cannot recall all the reference right now, but there are quite a few. most notably there were some frame-by-frame of murray's serve that clearly showed a downward face to the racket at contact ... it was funny though, b/c a guy on these boards was actually using those pictures to disprove the concept of "hitting up on the ball". i think he had a tough time separating the concepts of attitude and velocity.
i also remember some analysis of sampras's serve showing the flight path of the tip of the racket. it showed that at contact the tip had upward velocity in all serves: flat, kick, slice. if i remember correctly, the analysis also showed racket attitude at contact. but it was viewed from a weird angle and it was somewhat hard to see the "downward" angle.
nousername
Rookie
well, here's the sampras analysis i was talking about. doesn't really prove the point about the downward face of the racket, b/c the views are poor but it clearly shows upward velocity at contact, even on flat serves.
http://www.tennisserver.com/set/set_03_11.html
found in this thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=73886
gzhpcu
Professional
Found this (again Bruce Elliot) (source:http://www.stms.nl/download/BJSM/2006/Unforced_errors_and_error_reduction_in_tennis.pdf
Note that the "no spin" line is theoretical, since you can not hit a serve so precisely as to avoid having some spin on it...
Note that the "no spin" line is theoretical, since you can not hit a serve so precisely as to avoid having some spin on it...
Sorry if this is off topic, but wow... you hit so hard Jo11y (I watched some of your vids). I need to work on my racquet head speed. I think I better understand now what you meant by it after watching your strokes (in no way am I going to copy the way your strokes look, but my racquet head speed could use a bit of fine tuning ;] ).
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Um. . . Thanks. . . I think
Making progress with the FH over the past week +. I am almost scared to think about how nasty it will be once I get it squared away.
Unscrewing my FH and getting my flat ball into the 130s are my two main goals for 09. Secondly all the other stuff I suck at
J
Found this (again Bruce Elliot) (source:http://www.stms.nl/download/BJSM/2006/Unforced_errors_and_error_reduction_in_tennis.pdf
Note that the "no spin" line is theoretical, since you can not hit a serve so precisely as to avoid having some spin on it...
great find. this is what i was looking for. sooooo if contact is higher than 8 ft 9 in you could hit down and get the ball in the box. my friend was right d**** it. still think(i am stubborn) its best to think you are hitting up so you get full extension
gzhpcu
Professional
Glad to Larry. It interests me too... Phil
I think nousername pretty much had it right. You want your "hit" or swing to be moving in an of upward direction, but you want the racquet face to be angled downward slightly. This is going to be true for most serves. You can hit a kick serve with the racquet almost flat, but even then if you want to hit a hard kicker, you need some downward angle.
I was at Newks a year or so ago and we got to watch some of the top juniors play. There was one kid who was 14 with a very nice serve. His service motion was picture perfect. We were sitting directly to the side and I immediately noticed that his flat serve and kicker both had significant lean on them. It was one of those things that I really didn't think about too much, but after watching how effective both of his serves were, I started paying attention. I'd guess it was maybe 15 - 20 degrees from vertical.
I've never been able to see a pro serve from that close, but from video I've seen, I'd guess it's pretty standard.
I was at Newks a year or so ago and we got to watch some of the top juniors play. There was one kid who was 14 with a very nice serve. His service motion was picture perfect. We were sitting directly to the side and I immediately noticed that his flat serve and kicker both had significant lean on them. It was one of those things that I really didn't think about too much, but after watching how effective both of his serves were, I started paying attention. I'd guess it was maybe 15 - 20 degrees from vertical.
I've never been able to see a pro serve from that close, but from video I've seen, I'd guess it's pretty standard.
Jonny S&V
Hall of Fame
Sorry Jo11y, but I had to post. Just to get it off my chest, your game both amazes and awes me but also makes me want to throw up (the 20 ft toss, literal throwing of the body weight into the forehand, etc...). Still, you hit the living crap out of the ball, so it's ok... :wink:
But to actually add to the convo, I'm about 5'10" and I hit down on flat serves.
BorisBeckerFan
Professional
I guess I'd need footage of myself to know for sure what I'm doing but I'm only 5'8" and I'm intentionally trying to hit somewhat down on the ball eventhough the racquet head is travelling upward. A previous poster said that even your flat serve will have some spin on it and I think if you are doing it right this absolutely correct. To hit a purely flat serve you would almost need to have a patty cake motion to your serve.
Jonny S&V
Hall of Fame
Not following through would help with this as well, but your arm would fall off.
