Hmmm, down-rated, what to do...

Old_Crow

Old_Crow

Rookie
Just got a call from my mother who captains a team at another club that I was on the prelim changes list to be downrated.

Backstory - never played organized tennis but I worked at a tennis club the last couple years of college so played a fair amount informally for about 4 years. Always been athletic, played soccer in college, etc. Toward the end, I was probably a bit less than .500 against friends that played on the mens "B" team. This was '88 - '91.

Didn't play more than 2x per year for 15 years... Now in my early 40's.

Wife started playing from scratch in 2001. Lost all her 2.5 matches, then crushed everyone she played in her second season and was bumped two spots to 3.5. Was about .500 to start but has gotten stronger. Borderline 4.0 now, beats 4.0 women in informal singles matches regularly.

So... to spend more time with the wife, I more of less gave up golf and started playing tennis last Fall. Self-rated 3.0 and joined a team at our club. Ended up playing #1 singles all season and got my *** beat. 0-4 in singles but won the only doubles match I played (last match). Losses were mostly to strong players, a couple probably aren't really 3.0. My problem was inconsistency and being very weak mentally.

Been practicing hard since, weekly lessons, clinics, etc. The wife and I beat the dogpoop out of three different 7.0 mixed team (2&1, etc). I haven't lost to a 3.0 in a while and have beat a couple 3.5's playing short sets during clinics, etc.

So today I find out I'm on the list to be bumped down to 2.5 due to getting smoked in singles last season. We had been planning on playing mixed 7.0 but now we can play mixed 6.0..? Also - if there are a limited number of spots for people 'playing up' and I get bumped from my 3.0 team, wouldn't I just be asking for trouble joining a 2.5 team? But if I didn't join a 2.5, how would I get back to 3.0 and beyond (low 4.0 is a realistic goal for me according to comments from pros)?

OC
 
What list are you talking about? The NTRP ratings do not come out until year end. I would say it's unusual to get bumped down from 3.0 to 2.5.

As for the 3.0 team even if your a 2.5 you can play up a level.
 
aidenous said:
What list are you talking about? The NTRP ratings do not come out until year end. I would say it's unusual to get bumped down from 3.0 to 2.5.

As for the 3.0 team even if your a 2.5 you can play up a level.
Click to expand...

It's an interim change list posted by USTA to be used for Fall Leagues. For me it would be for Mixed Doubles.

There are limits to the number of player that can play up - although I just found out it's 50% for my league so I should be fine.
 
Cruzer said:
The ratings that come out mid-year are referred to as "Early Start Ratings" and become effective for the mixed and senior seasons.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of leagues that start in the Fall at all levels. GA and Texas have Fall leagues that count in 2008 End of Year ratings, these leagues are what use the Early-Start/Mid-Year Ratings. Also in many Sections Mixed Doubles is already well underway.
 
yeah but you dont NEED a combo team to be the exact rating theyre playing at do you? I mean, didnt he already say he and his wife played 7.0 when shes a 3.5 and hes a 3.0? and I say just have fun kicking everyone's ass in 2.5 for a season, you might even get to go to sectionals or nationals (especially in mixed doubles where a few strong teams can carry everyone else through the playoffs)
 
Thx all. I'm going to talk to my pro about it this weekend. I seriously doubt he'd be supportive of us playing 6.0 mixed as we're regulars in his 3.5/4.0 clinic and nowhere near the worst players.

We've already been recruited for a 7.0 team so that's the first choice. Would I need to appeal up since we'd be two levels down (3.5 + 2.5)?

Thx,

OC
 
randomname said:
yeah but you dont NEED a combo team to be the exact rating theyre playing at do you? I mean, didnt he already say he and his wife played 7.0 when shes a 3.5 and hes a 3.0? and I say just have fun kicking everyone's ass in 2.5 for a season, you might even get to go to sectionals or nationals (especially in mixed doubles where a few strong teams can carry everyone else through the playoffs)
Click to expand...

Yes, we've been playing against 7.0 teams. Last three matches:

Won (6-2, 6-1) against 3.5 man, 3.5 woman
Won (6-1, 6-2) against 3.0 man, 3.5 woman
Won (6-1, 6-1, 6-1) against 3.0 man, 4.0 woman

All the above rating are computer generated, active USTA league players who win matches in their teams.

A team of 4.0 man, 3.0 woman would beat us but we'd be very competitive with any other 7.0 combination in our area. Wife is very athletic, last two years 4-0 at #1 singles and 5-1 at doubles. I suck, especially between the ears, but am improving. We play well together.

We would do very well at 6.0 mixed but would catch a ton of stinkeye.

OC
 
Old_Crow said:
Would I need to appeal up since we'd be two levels down (3.5 + 2.5)?
Click to expand...

No, you don't need to appeal up, you can just play up.

The rating level for the league is just the maximum, not a minimum.

Also, don't be quite so sure that you'll clock everybody at the 6.0 level! Things have a way of changing when there's an official, high-stakes, league match on the line!

You can play both (ordinarily, unless your particular USTA section or local league prohibit that). Why not do that--at the very least you'll play more tennis, get more match experience, and become more "match-tough."

Also, the 6.0 league is where you'll be more likely to meet 3.0 players who might be inclined to invite you onto their 3.0 team for next year--especially if you do as well as you think you will.

BTW, Ordinarily--again, depending on your section--your play in the mixed league(s) won't affect your rating at all if you play in the single-gender league that year.
 
gjoc said:
Also, don't be quite so sure that you'll clock everybody at the 6.0 level! Things have a way of changing when there's an official, high-stakes, league match on the line!

You can play both (ordinarily, unless your particular USTA section or local league prohibit that). Why not do that--at the very least you'll play more tennis, get more match experience, and become more "match-tough."
Click to expand...

:mad: This kind of attitude is the exact reason why league tennis is out of whack.

The OP's teaching pro was correct that he should be playing at the correct level, and not at a level to win. His wife is near 4.0, he himself is capable of reaching 4.0 now that he's actively practicing again. Since they're able to regularly beat 3.5 pairs, they should be playing Mixed 7.0 and not Mixed 6.0.


To the OP "Old Crow": Is this USTA league play? It's a bit strange that your mother was able to see the list of players getting their ESR NTRP lowered. You may need to play USTA tournaments to get your NTRP back to the correct level. It sounds like your teaching pro wants everyone to play fair, and I'm sure he would support you joining your club's 3.0 team for the next adult season.
 
Just play 3.0 and 7.0 mixed otherwise you will be bored with the weak competition. Play up if you want to improve.
 
i've never seen a league where the majority of doubles teams have higher level women playing with lower level men.

sounds like people that want to lose often and quickly!
 
Vitaly Evchenkov said:
i've never seen a league where the majority of doubles teams have higher level women playing with lower level men.

sounds like people that want to lose often and quickly!
Click to expand...

Pick your poison. If you're in a 7.5 league and have a 4.0 man playing with a 3.5 woman, the guy will be FAR superior to the gal - giving opponents an easy target. In the same league, a 3.5 man playing with a 4.0 woman will be a team of nearly equals - making it harder on your opponent.

There are pro's an con's either way, but in my opinion the team of equals will usually beat a team with an obvious weakness.
 
Raiden.Kaminari said:
To the OP "Old Crow": Is this USTA league play? It's a bit strange that your mother was able to see the list of players getting their ESR NTRP lowered.
Click to expand...

It's public, on the USTA regional websites. Go to: www.XXXX.usta.com
where XXXX=your section and look for "2008 USTA League Early Start Ratings Now Available".

It's funny really... We were a new fairly weak 3.0 team, went 2-5. They had been a 2.5 team the year before that moved up en mass. So some members moved up to 3.0 in the early start adjustments and I moved down.

If I had played #2 singles instead of #1, this wouldn't have happened. Of my 4 losses, 3 of the guys have been moved up to 3.5. One went 5-0 including wins at divisionals, one went 3-0 and the other actually played up and won 3 matches at 3.5...

No worries for me. I start 7.0 practice in a couple weeks. I've actually been recruited for a new 3.5 team next season so may play doubles with them and singles with my old team. Playing/practicing/lessons 5 days a weeks and losing 20lbs has helped a lot. ;)

Thx for the comments, off to hit...
 
SoCal eliminated ESR and NorCal hasn't published theirs yet :(

Good for you that you will be playing at the correct level, despite what the algorithm decided.

Were any of your matches blow outs? If so, that may have pushed you to about 2.49x range. Which means, you can most likely appeal and be adjusted back up :)
 
Followup after my first USTA 7.0 mixed match. Actually my first USTA mixed match period.

We played against a 4.0 man and a 3.0 woman. We won 6-2, 6-3. Our only hiccup was my wife getting broken in the second to last game of the second set due to a couple double faults and my crappy volley. Otherwise, we were pretty solid. I held serve every time and we broke the woman every time except one and broke the guy one time.

I practice a lot with my wife and we both play best when we swing from our heels and slug it out hitting heavy top (for our level). When we practice, we start baseline and as soon as someone hits one short, the other moves in. Then the baseline player doesn't try to pass, rather they drill it at the net player as many times as possible. The net player volleys down the middle. This seems to have gotten her ready for the standard mixed strategy of 'nail it at the woman'... Actually, that's my strategy too but I have to keep reminding my wife as she always wants to bang it out with the other man for the "challenge" (quote).

On the 7.0 mixed kick serve thing. I hit one last night, not hard but with good bite and it caught the woman in the forehead... Whoops!
 
Last edited:
One note of caution - if your wife moves up to 4.0, you may not be eligable to play with her. According to my local section (Mid Atlantic) teams members cannot be more that two levels apart (1 point rating difference)
 
Scout around for a strong 2.5 team, join, play dubs a couple times, and see how far the team can go. Just don't unleash hell on the competition.
 
If you are winning at 7.0 mixed and worried about getting rated down to a 2.5, certainly appeal up because 2.5 will be a complete waste of your time. Plus you want to be closer to your wife's rating for the 1 full point spread rule.
 
Old_Crow said:
Just got a call from my mother who captains a team at another club that I was on the prelim changes list to be downrated.

Backstory - never played organized tennis but I worked at a tennis club the last couple years of college so played a fair amount informally for about 4 years. Always been athletic, played soccer in college, etc. Toward the end, I was probably a bit less than .500 against friends that played on the mens "B" team. This was '88 - '91.

Didn't play more than 2x per year for 15 years... Now in my early 40's.

Wife started playing from scratch in 2001. Lost all her 2.5 matches, then crushed everyone she played in her second season and was bumped two spots to 3.5. Was about .500 to start but has gotten stronger. Borderline 4.0 now, beats 4.0 women in informal singles matches regularl

So... to spend more time with the wife, I more of less gave up golf and started playing tennis last Fall. Self-rated 3.0 and joined a team at our club. Ended up playing #1 singles all season and got my *** beat. 0-4 in singles but won the only doubles match I played (last match). Losses were mostly to strong players, a couple probably aren't really 3.0. My problem was inconsistency and being very weak mentally.

Been practicing hard since, weekly lessons, clinics, etc. The wife and I beat the dogpoop out of three different 7.0 mixed team (2&1, etc). I haven't lost to a 3.0 in a while and have beat a couple 3.5's playing short sets during clinics, etc.

So today I find out I'm on the list to be bumped down to 2.5 due to getting smoked in singles last season. We had been planning on playing mixed 7.0 but now we can play mixed 6.0..? Also - if there are a limited number of spots for people 'playing up' and I get bumped from my 3.0 team, wouldn't I just be asking for trouble joining a 2.5 team? But if I didn't join a 2.5, how would I get back to 3.0 and beyond (low 4.0 is a realistic goal for me according to comments from pros)?

OC
Click to expand...

We have almost the exact same playing history. Never played organized tennis, played a lot '88-'91, stopped playing for 15 years, early 40s............I picked up a racket again for the spring USTA (3.0) season this year. I think you made a big mistake by starting out in singles. It takes us old guys a bit longer to gain our step back. Starting out in doubles would have allowed you to ease back into the game a little more comfortably. Like you, I've lost some matches due to mental weakness. That being said, I'm looking to play one more spring in 3.0 (I really like the team), and then play 7.0 mixed in the fall.
 
Old_Crow said:
Just got a call from my mother who captains a team at another club that I was on the prelim changes list to be downrated.

Backstory - never played organized tennis but I worked at a tennis club the last couple years of college so played a fair amount informally for about 4 years. Always been athletic, played soccer in college, etc. Toward the end, I was probably a bit less than .500 against friends that played on the mens "B" team. This was '88 - '91.

Didn't play more than 2x per year for 15 years... Now in my early 40's.

Wife started playing from scratch in 2001. Lost all her 2.5 matches, then crushed everyone she played in her second season and was bumped two spots to 3.5. Was about .500 to start but has gotten stronger. Borderline 4.0 now, beats 4.0 women in informal singles matches regularly.

So... to spend more time with the wife, I more of less gave up golf and started playing tennis last Fall. Self-rated 3.0 and joined a team at our club. Ended up playing #1 singles all season and got my *** beat. 0-4 in singles but won the only doubles match I played (last match). Losses were mostly to strong players, a couple probably aren't really 3.0. My problem was inconsistency and being very weak mentally.

Been practicing hard since, weekly lessons, clinics, etc. The wife and I beat the dogpoop out of three different 7.0 mixed team (2&1, etc). I haven't lost to a 3.0 in a while and have beat a couple 3.5's playing short sets during clinics, etc.

So today I find out I'm on the list to be bumped down to 2.5 due to getting smoked in singles last season. We had been planning on playing mixed 7.0 but now we can play mixed 6.0..? Also - if there are a limited number of spots for people 'playing up' and I get bumped from my 3.0 team, wouldn't I just be asking for trouble joining a 2.5 team? But if I didn't join a 2.5, how would I get back to 3.0 and beyond (low 4.0 is a realistic goal for me according to comments from pros)?

OC
Click to expand...

If you dont really want to play 2.5, then appeal up. There is no reason to carry around a 2.5 rating even if you can play up anyway.

If you really feel that you are not 2.5 and you've improved then you shouldnt waste your time playing anything where you need a 2.5 rating. (which is very likely for a lot of players, especially if you are athletic)

You have a better chance of redeeming yourself in a 3.0 league, then you do playing 2.5. Even if you clobber everyone at 2.5, depending on their specific rating, you may not get moved up anyway. (plus what's the point??)

I used to run a 3.0 team (men's though), and I had a few players who got moved down to 2.5 and were up to 3.0 right away the following year after they improved it wasnt a big deal. In the last year I stopped running the team so if any of them had a 2.5 rating then, I recommended they appeal up just to improve their shot of getting on another team.
 
The current rating thing is a short-term computer anomaly. I'll play up in USTA men's next season. I haven't lost to a 3.5 in social play for a while now. My problem is a 3.5+ game with a 2.5- mental state.

Winning so much in mixed has helped a lot - we haven't lost in social play in a long time. We also won our flight in the club championships. I was a little nervous serving out the last set but nothing like last USTA season. I wasn't nervous at all serving out the first mixed 7.0 match.

We played a 6.0 match last night and it was wasn't so fun with a 1&0 win. We'll support that team too but I figure we've got one season playing together at 6.0 & 7.0 then we'll have to play 8.0 or get different partners (or both).

We're both practicing our asses off playing 5-6 days a week including a couple coached sessions so we're looking forward to the challenge of higher level play.
 
well year-end ratings comes out on November 20, so until then everyone is speculating on what they may have.
 
Nellie said:
One note of caution - if your wife moves up to 4.0, you may not be eligable to play with her. According to my local section (Mid Atlantic) teams members cannot be more that two levels apart (1 point rating difference)
Click to expand...

All sections have that rule now after 7.0 mixed was dominated by 4.5 male players partnered with supposed (and self-rated) 2.5 female partners (in truth, they were at least 3.5).

Players are usually not disqualified to finish a Mixed season unless they generate a three strike DQ the next adult season, even if their year end rating moves them up. Someone posted the ULR document, but I can't find the link now :(
 
Yes, in our section is the Early Start ratings apply for the entire Fall Mixed season regardless of the year-end rating.

From our section's site:

The early start ratings are published in July for the sole purpose of establishing a rating for those players who plan to play in the 2008 league season which may begin play as early as August 2007. The ratings apply ONLY to those individuals who are playing in Senior and Mixed Doubles leagues and DO NOT apply to those players participating in the Adult Leagues which starts within the calendar year of 2008.
A player who participates in USTA League Tennis in the fall of 2007 for the 2008 season will hold that rating throughout that league (Senior/Mixed) season providing he/she has not reached the three strikes status.

Won our second 7.0 match tonight, 6-1, 6-2. So far, so good...!
 
I am not sure about the rule or basis for appealing up, but I do not really see the need. When I enquired several years okay, I was told to play at the right level and let my rating improve through success on the court. You can play up, as long as you can find a team to take you. Your dynamic rating may quickly jump midseason if you start getting wins, for example, on a 3.5 team.

Unfortunately for you, your Mixed doubles results will not count in your rating, unless you stop playing men's tennis.
 
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