Holger is looking good!

tex123

Hall of Fame
I watched the match yesterday. I know. I don't generally watch matches featuring Djokovic as we all know the result. I liked what Boris has done to Holger's game. The tactics were great i.e. use the firepower he has all the time. No point rallying with Djokovic as he's going to wear you down. He has some serious firepower off both wings. I was impressed with how far his volleys and slices have progressed. Despite the loss, he should take huge positives from this match.

His serves don't deliver in important moments. He was a break up in both the sets only to give it back the next game. And it was not because there was something special the Djokovic did. His serves did not deliver in important moments. He should also control the restless, fidgety negative energy all the time. That can't be good for his game. I think if he continues the work with Boris, he'll be on his way to top 2 very soon.

What do you think?
 

ppma

Professional
He was really brave and consistent yesterday; sad he did not win. Hope to se more of that from now on. However, that firepower was working yesterday, but might not work another day.

Yesterday, Holger seemed to sort of disconnect when he was ahead or had just achieved to lead (a break, or a set just won), leading to poor performance of the following games. That's for certain an aspect that he must deal with and set in order.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Honestly I think Novak played to passively and was a bit underwhelming compared to his own standards.

Holger is a prodigy with such quality that combined with his way of playing tennis he can triumph against all and most suffer against many.

Not being able to confirm a break is also much more a feature of the talented young than the experienced old.
 

RaulRamirez

Legend
I was only able to watch some of the match.
What happened that he seemed to tire early?

There's a lot to like in Holger's game, including a very smooth DTL backhand.
 

paolo2143

Professional
THe problem with Tune is he a;ways raises his game against Novak but then is just as likely to lose badly to someone like Ruud or some other player he should have real shot of beating.
 

Move

Hall of Fame
THe problem with Tune is he a;ways raises his game against Novak but then is just as likely to lose badly to someone like Ruud or some other player he should have real shot of beating.
Should develop more gears and different game plans. Can get difficult with his fiery mentality
 

SonnyT

Legend
Djokovic endured 2 TB's in a match with Rune. His ability to return worsens as his age increases, where is his prowess to return of yesteryears?

He resorts to TB's to defeat his opponents, doesn't speak well for his future going forward.
 
A

ALCARAZWON

Guest
Djokovic endured 2 TB's in a match with Rune. His ability to return worsens as his age increases, where is his prowess to return of yesteryears?

He resorts to TB's to defeat his opponents, doesn't speak well for his future going forward.
No surprise there, nobody in their mid30s has much of a future.
 

Lauren_Girl'

Hall of Fame
I watched the match yesterday. I know. I don't generally watch matches featuring Djokovic as we all know the result. I liked what Boris has done to Holger's game. The tactics were great i.e. use the firepower he has all the time. No point rallying with Djokovic as he's going to wear you down. He has some serious firepower off both wings. I was impressed with how far his volleys and slices have progressed. Despite the loss, he should take huge positives from this match.

His serves don't deliver in important moments. He was a break up in both the sets only to give it back the next game. And it was not because there was something special the Djokovic did. His serves did not deliver in important moments. He should also control the restless, fidgety negative energy all the time. That can't be good for his game. I think if he continues the work with Boris, he'll be on his way to top 2 very soon.

What do you think?

I am not as positive. Is it Boris or is it that he thrives in Indoors conditions?

He also looked good last year in Stockholm Basel and Paris. Heis looking good now but not much improvement compared to 2022. It's a different story without the roof. He sucks in outdoors conditions. Let's see if he improves next year.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic endured 2 TB's in a match with Rune. His ability to return worsens as his age increases, where is his prowess to return of yesteryears?

He resorts to TB's to defeat his opponents, doesn't speak well for his future going forward.
Djokovic's 2nd set return performance was one of the most abysmal I have ever seen from him

Rune made 25/45 first serves in (55.6%). He got 11 aces and 8 unreturned (76% !!!)

Out of the 6 Rune first serves Djokovic put in play (24%), he won 4, for a craptastic total of 4/25 (16%) of first return points won.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
Djokovic's 2nd set return performance was one of the most abysmal I have ever seen from him

Rune made 25/45 first serves in (55.6%). He got 11 aces and 8 unreturned (76% !!!)

Out of the 6 Rune first serves Djokovic put in play (24%), he won 4, for a craptastic total of 4/25 (16%) of first return points won.
To be fair - Rune did serve bombs whenever he landed. He also went for two first serves many times. That's a lot of unpredictability to handle. He was also blasting off both wings. The percentages don't tell the full story.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Another L taken. He better slay!
He slays, bae-lieve me. :p

1cf6863a13ebe15f4324c9d30c30ddd1697cac2d.jpg
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
To be fair - Rune did serve bombs whenever he landed. He also went for two first serves many times. That's a lot of unpredictability to handle. He was also blasting off both wings. The percentages don't tell the full story.
Rune won only 45% of his second serve points in that set, so rallying wasn't the problem. The troubling stat for Djokovic is 24% first serves returned in play in the second set

Novak posted better numbers against John Isner's first serve at the Tour Finals. And as well as Rune can serve, he is not John Isner
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Rune won only 45% of his second serve points in that set, so rallying wasn't the problem. The troubling stat for Djokovic is 24% first serves returned in play in the second set

Novak posted better numbers against John Isner's first serve at the Tour Finals. And as well as Rune can serve, he is not John Isner
Perhaps it is because he is not in fact 'better than ever'?
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Boris seems to have made Rune serve, return and hit much more aggressively - he also hit FHs DTL quickly to get crosscourt rallies back to Djokovic’s BH wing which is relatively weaker this year than his FH. So it was a good tactical gameplan and good serving which bothered Djokovic. I don’t have the stats but it seemed like he was bothering Djokovic with his pace on the fast court and he was dictating many rallies.

Unfortunately Rune got tight when he had a break lead in the second set and also late in the third set. He suddenly served poorly with some DFs and also started trying to shorten points by rushing the net off bad approaches - Djokovic passed him a few times and won key points while he was otherwise struggling to win longer rallies against Rune. Djokovic was tight too knowing that he needed to win to get the YE1 ranking and he choked when up also.

I think the kid still gets too nervous (that’s when he looks and makes gestures at his box more also) in crucial moments and doesn’t have the focused intensity to execute a gameplan steadily throughout a long, tough match yet. Hopefully he learns that if he is going to win 7 Bestof5 matches in Slams over two weeks. He gave the AO match away against Rublev also when he was on the verge of winning multiple times.
 
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jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Boris seems to have made Rune serve and hit much more aggressively - he also hit FHs DTL quickly to get crosscourt rallies back to Djokovic’s BH wing which is relatively weaker this year than his FH. So it was a good tactical gameplan and good serving which bothered Djokovic. I don’t have the stats but it seemed like he was bothering Djokovic with his pace on the fast court and he was dictating many rallies.

Unfortunately Rune got tight when he had a break lead in the second set and also late in the third set. He suddenly served poorly with some DFs and also started trying to shorten points by rushing the net off bad approaches - Djokovic passed hi a few times and won key points while he was otherwise struggling to win longer rallies against Rune.

I think the kid still gets too nervous (that’s when he looks and makes gestures at his box more also) in crucial moments and doesn’t have the focused intensity to execute a gameplan steadily throughout a long, tough match yet. Hopefully he learns that if he is going to win 7 Bestof5 matches in Slams over two weeks. He gave the AO match away against Rublev also when he was on the verge of winning multiple times.
I don't think Rune was ever on the verge of winning this one. Maybe if he won the first set.

Towards the end of the second, I became convinced he wouldn't have the legs to ultimately win the match even if it went to a decider
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I don't think Rune was ever on the verge of winning this one. Maybe if he won the first set.

Towards the end of the second, I became convinced he wouldn't have the legs to ultimately win the match even if it went to a decider
His legs look huge and it makes you wonder if it is the legs that go first or mental fatigue caused by too much nervous energy?
 

ballamaz

Rookie
At the moment he is like a better version of Shapo.

He has an attacking game but against Djoko it just seems high risk with those unforced errors. Sinner and Alcaraz can hit a bigger ball whilst remaining consistent.

His movement is very muscular rather than fluid. He has lots nervous ticks in between points which suggests that he is over extending himself.
 

daggerman

Hall of Fame
Honestly I think Novak played to passively and was a bit underwhelming compared to his own standards.

Holger is a prodigy with such quality that combined with his way of playing tennis he can triumph against all and most suffer against many.

I agree that Novak generally hasn't played his best tennis against Rune, but perhaps it's the best tennis he's capable of playing against Rune. For whatever reason, Rune has tended to serve much better than his usual level against Novak, and when he's serving like that, particularly on an indoor hardcourt, he's tough for anyone to beat.

But in my view, all of their matches so far have been extended feeling out processes -- maybe precursors to some classic matches yet to come. Although the level of tennis in each match has been pretty high, I don't get the impression that either player is satisfied by how they've performed. There are a number of things each player can do to elevate their play against the other, but I think this is the central issue for each:
  • Novak needs to get a better read on Rune's serve. Even when Novak is getting returns back in play, he's not making the kind of consistently solid contact to which we're accustomed from Novak. He's mishitting a lot of returns and giving Rune easy first strike opportunities. Additionally, when Novak isn't making a lot of quality returns, he tends to play baseline points more passively, since (1) his rhythm has been disrupted, and (2) he's extremely averse to spoiling the few good opportunities he has by hitting unforced errors. This passive approach is nonetheless often effective, since most players who serve well enough to win a lot of free points on serve against Novak are either servebots or "servebot counterpunchers." Novak can grind down his opponent with no-frills baseline solidity in the former case, and he isn't actively punished for his passivity in the latter. But Rune can punish his passivity by taking the first ball early and getting to net, where he's quite solid. These are just very easy points for Rune to convert every time, and unless Novak can start returning like Novak against Rune, he's not likely to ever beat him "routinely."
  • Rune needs to solve his stamina problem first and foremost, but I also think he needs to beef up his stock defensive shotmaking. Although he has the movement skills to run down everything Novak hits, he tends to leave his stock defensive replies short and central in the court, so Novak can continue attacking and moving Rune around. Even if Rune wins some of these points, this approach impacts his legs over the course of a long match. Right now, his only tool for avoiding having to defend is hyper-aggression. He needs to learn how to avoid having to defend by getting more depth on mundane defensive shots.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
Rune won only 45% of his second serve points in that set, so rallying wasn't the problem. The troubling stat for Djokovic is 24% first serves returned in play in the second set

Novak posted better numbers against John Isner's first serve at the Tour Finals. And as well as Rune can serve, he is not John Isner
You seem to be focusing on one stat in isolation and ignoring everything else that is affecting that it. Djokovic is a rhythm player. And Rune wasn't giving him any. Sometimes it is two first serves. Sometimes it is shots landing at Djoko's feet. Sometimes it is rocket forehand or backhand followed up with a volley. There were hardly any rallies as Rune was focused on keeping it short. All of this unpredictability has an effect on his game including ROS. If his return is short, Rune will blast his forehand and come in. Rune also threw in some drop shots.

I think Boris will make him a top top player.
 

KantenKlaar

Hall of Fame
Boris seems to have made Rune serve, return and hit much more aggressively - he also hit FHs DTL quickly to get crosscourt rallies back to Djokovic’s BH wing which is relatively weaker this year than his FH. So it was a good tactical gameplan and good serving which bothered Djokovic. I don’t have the stats but it seemed like he was bothering Djokovic with his pace on the fast court and he was dictating many rallies.

Unfortunately Rune got tight when he had a break lead in the second set and also late in the third set. He suddenly served poorly with some DFs and also started trying to shorten points by rushing the net off bad approaches - Djokovic passed him a few times and won key points while he was otherwise struggling to win longer rallies against Rune. Djokovic was tight too knowing that he needed to win to get the YE1 ranking and he choked when up also.

I think the kid still gets too nervous (that’s when he looks and makes gestures at his box more also) in crucial moments and doesn’t have the focused intensity to execute a gameplan steadily throughout a long, tough match yet. Hopefully he learns that if he is going to win 7 Bestof5 matches in Slams over two weeks. He gave the AO match away against Rublev also when he was on the verge of winning multiple times.
I started watching Rune closely a few years ago and was very excited. As he moved into the spotlight and evolved,it was obvious that he has an underlying mental condition. If he had a stable team behind him, this mental glitches could be worked through. But the team (until Becker entered) was even more whacky than Rune himself. How Holger got where he is with these people in his box is a miracle. Can Becker undo the damage, keep the box at bay and develop this young man into the player he was meant to be? I hope so.
 

Fabresque

Legend
Before Becker
Rune 2-1 Djokovic

After Becker
Rune 2-3 Djokovic

We know what he's been sent to do. And he's doing a fantastic job of it.

DmiNaVaX4AAvEDm.jpg
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
Boris is the man.

Against Sinner, I was really impressed with Rune. This was a good loss. He played intelligently varying the pace, threw in slices, came to the net and tried drop shots. I did not think he had it in him.
He even tempered his natural instincts to blow up with Boris calming him down.

Mark my words. If he continues with Boris, he'll be no 1. Sharpness and clutch will come with experience. He needs to stay the course.

Really good to see.
 
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MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Boris is the man.

Against Sinner, I was really impressed with Rune. This was a good loss. He played intelligently varying the pace, threw in slices, came to the net and tried drop shots. I did not think he had it in him.
He even tempered his natural instincts to blow up with Boris calming him down.

Mark my words. If he continues with Boris, he'll be no 1. Sharpness and clutch will come with experience. He needs to stay the course.

Really good to see.
8-B
 
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