Hook spin forehands? (vid) better for consistency?

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Tried adding some inside-out swingpath at contact to my crappy fh this week.

Feels more repeatable. Is this the secret to the promised land?

 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Hook or a Draw?

I'll normally utilize that inside-out swingpath on my Fh. Often I'll employ some "hooking" sidespin in addition to my topspin. The draw (hook) action is particularly useful on DTL shots, especially passing shots to help keep the ball from going wide. The banana shot, an extreme version of this, was popularized by Roddick & Nadal.

Also use the draw/hook quite a bit shot sharply-angled X-court shots.

 
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travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I actually used my hooker pretty effectively in my outdoor singles practice match yesterday. Opponent hit fh angled short drop volley, and I was able to banana it around him DTL.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
As a lefty, I utilized the draw/hook Fh action quite a bit to jam right-handed players on their Fh side. I suppose that this can be useful on your Bh strokes, unless you happen to be hitting against a lefty — then Fh shots would be effective.
 
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nyta2

Legend
Tried adding some inside-out swingpath at contact to my crappy fh this week.

Feels more repeatable. Is this the secret to the promised land?

i saw a uspta seminar on yt that highlighted always trying to hit the outside of the ball on all strokes... (groundstrokes and volleys are what he reviewed anyway)
i forget who the speaker was, he that shared a story about him hitting with agassi (i think) where in mini all the shots had a "draw' quality to it... and the speaker was like (paraphraseing) "are you doing that to mess with me?" and the response was "uh, no, that's how everyone is taught to hit"
i've also taken a lesson, where the pro (utr11-12ish/wta hitting partner/ex-d1/etc...) emphasized putting draw (he described it as, "hit the outside of the ball"), even on fh inside out shots...
 

Smecz

Professional
Tried adding some inside-out swingpath at contact to my crappy fh this week.

Feels more repeatable. Is this the secret to the promised land?

I see,it's good but Don't you sometimes have problems with playing deep balls?!

Generally I have the impression that you want to control the head of the racket too much, right?!


Look at this forehand Nadal,Due to the fact that Rafael allows the head to move freely, he can achieve huge rotation and speed.

Do this, let the racket hang freely at hip height (racket sideways to the net) and then start swinging back and forth as if the racket was swinging, and you'll understand what I mean. ;)
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I see,it's good but Don't you sometimes have problems with playing deep balls?!

Generally I have the impression that you want to control the head of the racket too much, right?!


Look at this forehand Nadal,Due to the fact that Rafael allows the head to move freely, he can achieve huge rotation and speed.

Do this, let the racket hang freely at hip height (racket sideways to the net) and then start swinging back and forth as if the racket was swinging, and you'll understand what I mean. ;)
Yes. I have tried to hit forehands like Rafa. It gives me lots of spin and power but I can’t control it as well as Rafa, so I go back to my crappy technique.
 

Smecz

Professional
Yes. I have tried to hit forehands like Rafa. It gives me lots of spin and power but I can’t control it as well as Rafa, so I go back to my crappy technique.
Generally hits like Rafael Nadal are less control and are very risky,but after years of training, he has developed big control!.

Disadvantage of this forehand hook is that head racquet became very stiff-the head of the racket becomes stiff with too much control, and the forehand resembles a shot like Connors or Borg.

Repeatability, breaking through to the other side of the net or defensive situations, this type of forehand is very good, but if you also want to play more attacking, this forehand is not suitable!!

Notice that with this forehand hook, the racket head is almost immobile!

In my opinion, you probably won't develop much when it comes to rotations and playing in matches!

However, if you want to improve your game, forget about the forehand hook, just close the shot without any hesitation, because in the video you don't allow the head of the racket to go behind the body (half-swing).

Hmm, it may also be that you want to do this forehand hook, you don't allow the head to move freely and you hit it halfway, your way of playing reminds me of old school tennis.

If you want, you can play like that, but if you want to play in a modern way, you have to change something.
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
As a lefty, I utilized the draw/hook Fh action quite a bit to jam right-handed players on their Fh side. I suppose that this can be useful on your Bh strokes, unless you happen to be hitting against a lefty — then Fh shots would be effective.
I'm trying to learn this shot. How is the contact point relative to your body, compared to a normal cross court fh? Is it closer? Is it more in front rather than on the side of the body?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I'm trying to learn this shot. How is the contact point relative to your body, compared to a normal cross court fh? Is it closer? Is it more in front rather than on the side of the body?
Are you speaking as a lefty hitting against a righty or as a righty hitting against a lefty?
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm trying to learn this shot. How is the contact point relative to your body, compared to a normal cross court fh? Is it closer? Is it more in front rather than on the side of the body?
For me, the draw spin fh feels more natural with more lateral spacing and less out in front contact point.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I'm trying to learn this shot. How is the contact point relative to your body, compared to a normal cross court fh? Is it closer? Is it more in front rather than on the side of the body?
I wasn't really referring to a X-court Fh in post #5. I was talking about hitting my lefty Fh into the body of the righty opponent on their Fh side. So this would be closer to DTL.

I'm jamming the opponent by adding some sidespin to my topspin shot. You can think of it as diagonal topspin. Or starting your forward swing from the inside (near side) of the ball and swinging it to the outside of the ball... kinda like you are trying reach around to contact the far side of the ball. Does that make sense? (The banana shot that Roddick & Nadal would sometimes hit is an extreme version of this).

Hitting a ball with diagonal topspin can be very useful in other instances as well. If the incoming ball is coming from a x-court position and you decide to play it DTL, adding some sidespin to your topspin shot will help prevent the ball from going wide (curving it back in) if you are playing the ball fairly close to the sideline.

Hitting the ball on the outside is also useful for hitting x-court. Particularly, sharply angled x-court shots. This is often executed with a reverse finish -- as Sampras was fond of doing.

Normally when hitting a X-court shot, your CP will be further forward than a comparable DTL shot. However, with a reverse finish, your CP might not be as far forward to hit that X-court shot.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
@5263 @SystemicAnomaly @Dragy
Reviving this thread. I'm slowly figuring out the fade and draw forehand. Still don't have a clear clue when to use which for higher percentage.

If I have to take couple of steps to hit an open stance forehand dtl, I find draw forehand to be high percentage when the contact point is below waist height. For the same situation, when the contact point is chest high, I find it more natural to hit a normal topspin drive with extreme eastern (weak sw) grip and the question is would a power fade increase the chance of success?

In terms of fade forehand, other than inside out, put away short high balls including swing volley, what are the most common use of this shot?
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I wasn't really referring to a X-court Fh in post #5. I was talking about hitting my lefty Fh into the body of the righty opponent on their Fh side. So this would be closer to DTL.

I'm jamming the opponent by adding some sidespin to my topspin shot. You can think of it as diagonal topspin. Or starting your forward swing from the inside (near side) of the ball and swinging it to the outside of the ball... kinda like you are trying reach around to contact the far side of the ball. Does that make sense? (The banana shot that Roddick & Nadal would sometimes hit is an extreme version of this).

Hitting a ball with diagonal topspin can be very useful in other instances as well. If the incoming ball is coming from a x-court position and you decide to play it DTL, adding some sidespin to your topspin shot will help prevent the ball from going wide (curving it back in) if you are playing the ball fairly close to the sideline.

Hitting the ball on the outside is also useful for hitting x-court. Particularly, sharply angled x-court shots. This is often executed with a reverse finish -- as Sampras was fond of doing.

Normally when hitting a X-court shot, your CP will be further forward than a comparable DTL shot. However, with a reverse finish, your CP might not be as far forward to hit that X-court shot.
This post was very helpful if anyone goes down the same path I just did.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Tried adding some inside-out swingpath at contact to my crappy fh this week.

Feels more repeatable. Is this the secret to the promised land?


this swing thot can help certain players. as wrapping around the ball in-out-in means your arm has to be above the ball to cover it. good for control.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
To me, the fade is a better way to hit the ball when I want to be more offensive and drive the ball more - whether it is inside out, to a target in front of of me like inside-in/DTL or also when I hit cross court while having good court position. You can inject a lot of spin including sidespin for control while hitting a flatter trajectory to rob the opponent of time. If I’m behind the baseline and want to hit a loopier trajectory to give me more time to recover, to get depth when I’m late or if my opponent doesn’t like moonballs, then I’m more likely to hit a draw/hook. Of course if I’m outside the sideline and behind the baseline, the hook might be the only option to get the ball back into the court.

When you watch a pro match from courtside, one of the first things that strikes you is how much sidespin is on their shots as this fade sidespin is not as easily apparent on TV. They are obviously driving the ball at a much higher pace than the rest of us mortals and the fade is part of how they get control while robbing the opponent of time. That is why watching Federer and Djokovic hit on the rise live has been one of the most entertaining aspects of attending matches for me while I am not as entertained by the likes of Nadal who stand back and draw the ball more.

I also think you almost always have an inside-out plus low-high swing path from the slot to past your body plane as the racquet starts close or behind the body at the slot and goes forward and outwards towards contact - the follow through then brings it back in if conventional or stays outside if windshield-wiper. Whether you hit a fade or draw/hook has a lot to do with which spot on the ball you contact and the direction of your brushing vectors on the ball close to and after contact. These brushing vectors are more inside-out on a fade and outside-in on a draw/hook in those few milliseconds before contact, but it shouldn’t be confused with how you bring the racquet forward from the slot. The windshield wiper follow through is often seen on more aggressive fade shots, but it is not always the case on all fades. Also a lot of it is done with control of the shoulder/arm rotation rather than manipulating the wrist as high speed cameras have shown us.

Most rec players never try to drive the ball hard enough where they need a fade swing to control it and so this shot is not practiced often enough. If you set up deep targets and tell a player who knows how to generate spin to drive the ball harder than they normally do, they are going to automatically start hitting more fade shots especially DTL and inside-out. A good coach will do this drill often, but self-taught players rarely try it.
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
To me, the fade is a better way to hit the ball when I want to be more offensive and drive the ball more - whether it is inside out, to a target in front of of me like inside-in/DTL
Do you ever hit inside in with a draw? I saw a couple in the last few days either united cup or Brisbane. Don't have videos to show. I was surprised to see that and wonder why.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Do you ever hit inside in with a draw? I saw a couple in the last few days either united cup or Brisbane. Don't have videos to show.
It depends on my court position. For instance if I am 3-5 feet inside the sideline and my target is 1 foot from the sideline or the doubles alley, I could draw it as it is still a slight crosscourt shot relative to my body position - but my trajectory over the net will be higher. If I am very close to the sideline or outside it and hitting inside-in, the only option is to fade it to bring it inside the opposing sideline with some margin. In the first case if I want to hit it really hard and flatter, it might be safer to still hit a fade to avoid making a wide error - but then a net error is more in play.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
It depends on my court position. For instance if I am 3-5 feet inside the sideline and my target is 1 foot from the sideline or the doubles alley, I could draw it as it is still a slight crosscourt shot relative to my body position - but my trajectory over the net will be higher. If I am very close to the sideline or outside it and hitting inside-in, the only option is to fade it to bring it inside the opposing sideline with some margin. In the first case if I want to hit it really hard and flatter, it might be safer to still hit a fade to avoid making a wide error.
That makes sense
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
That makes sense
The key to shot selection is knowing what you can execute at a high % as this is more important than just thinking about what will hurt your opponent. High level players will have both fade and draw shots available on both wings just like they have different spins on serves and that is part of why they can draw up a more nuanced game plan than other players. And the key to having a wider repertoire that you can execute successfully is practice, practice, practice - even the pros practice daily if they are not playing matches.
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
The key to shot selection is knowing what you can execute at a high % as this is more important than just thinking about what will hurt your opponent. High level players will have both fade and draw shots available on both wings just like they have different spins on serves and that is part of why they can draw up a more nuanced game plan than other players. And the key to having a wider repertoire that you can execute successfully is practice, practice, practice - even the pros practice daily if they are not playing matches.
So far I've been mostly trying to expand repertoire. Just starting to think about patterns and good decision making in the last 6 months or so. Long way ahead.
 

Dragy

Legend
For the same situation, when the contact point is chest high, I find it more natural to hit a normal topspin drive with extreme eastern (weak sw) grip and the question is would a power fade increase the chance of success?
The “normal topspin” will still have some tiny bit of sidespin. The issue if you don’t intend to do it one way or another, is may creep in uncontrollable, and voila — your DTL shot drifts wide.

I personally see it this way, if I get behind the ball, and it’s high enough — I will use fade drive, hit it more straight and lower over the net, and give some margin from the sideline — the drive and some fade will take care of offensiveness (y)

If I’m more on the lateral move getting to the ball and still want to redirect DTL, the swing will always be draw-ish. If the ball is quite high, I will not be hooking and lifting it, but rather “covering” a bit, but the arm and wrist action will be same release like with lower lifting draw. Hope you get what I’m trying to say :giggle:

In terms of fade forehand, other than inside out, put away short high balls including swing volley, what are the most common use of this shot?
Hitting on the rise, driving the ball more. Hitting CC from the middle, ball above the net height — also good for fade, need strong uncoiling.

High drive volleys when the ball is falling in front of you — also.

I actually liked this vid with Karue and Winston. They practice driving the balls that are rising (which is easier with fade) and lifting, spinning balls that are falling (draw, which is natural for Winston).

 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
If the ball is quite high, I will not be hooking and lifting it, but rather “covering” a bit, but the arm and wrist action will be same release like with lower lifting draw.
Is the swing path less low to high in this case? I think I need some ball machine sessions to find the contact point for this shot.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Is this the secret to the promised land?

Actual footage of @travlerajm on court with his new FH....


1688752246370
 

Dragy

Legend
Is the swing path less low to high in this case? I think I need some ball machine sessions to find the contact point for this shot.
There’s no strict rule. But if you are intercept the ball early, stepping diagonally into the court, you obviously try to hit it down into the court. So you prepare high and swing more horizontally with closed racquet face.

Then you go look at Rafa, and he hits everything with quite steep swing. So it’s very personal.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Rafa’s putaways seem to be more hook than fade, even on high balls.
He has such hign pace and spin on his hook/draw FH shots that he can do things that other players don’t try - that was why his FH was so fearsome even if he hit it from way behind the baseline. I don’t think his BH was like that and he hit flatter fades more.
 
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