Hot take: Djokovic in 2015 could have brought out his 2011 level at any time, but chose not to.

[Federev]

You're right I have no evidence and I'm not actively making an accusation so please don't go overboard with what i said but personally for me, I remember at the time all the media talking about Federer being out for a brief period of time and lots of threads about him maybe being at the final tether of his career and suddenly Wawrinka comes out and starts playing like he's got unlimited stamina after a career of doing almost nothing up until that point. I feel it's healthy to stay skeptical.

“and I'm not actively making an accusation”

…except you basically did.

 

[fedfan24]

Did he have to? He was only really tested in one slam final and he lost convincingly. Maybe he should’ve started crushing the ball against Stan in that RG final.

 

[Federev]

All about blocking Nole, nothing will be a surprise.

Wow.

You guys are something else with this stuff.

 

[Third Serve]

Should be a cold take. He could bring his 2011 out because it was a worse level and he didn't cause he would have lost more matches.

Some slight trolling with this one but it’s partly correct. Djokovic surpassed his 2011 self in tournaments like Wimbledon and the ones in the indoor season.

But he was better in most of the hard court and clay court tournaments in 2011.

 

[Federev]

You’re too busy sledging Djokovic to service your daddy in Mallorca.

I hear him now, actually. Go to your daddy, he wants his foot injections on time!

He was responding to a guy accusing Stan and Federer of doping.

He made the point that it’s ironic for someone to make that accusation to explain Novak’s loss when Novak had an arguably even more dramatic change in his results. He never even accused Novak of doping.

His point was valid. You don’t have to go personal and bitter.

 

[Neptune]

That's because you, as usual, totally ignore the level of competition. And yeah, we already heard about number of wins over "top-10 players". (when players like Berdych and Nishikori were typical "top players" in 2015)

Could you please show something more than your salty feeling?

 

[Megafanoftennis100]

If Djokovic advances to the finals and beats Sinner this year, then 2023 will be Djokovic's ATP Finals peak, even better than 2015 (and certainly better than 2011) because Sinner is playing at an incredible level right now, he is playing even better than peak Federer from 2006, I seriously mean it. And for anyone to beat a player surpassing the level that Federer has shown us in 2006 at YEC, I would say that he is at his peak.

 

[NoleFam]

If Djokovic advances to the finals and beats Sinner this year, then 2023 will be Djokovic's ATP Finals peak, even better than 2015 (and certainly better than 2011) because Sinner is playing at an incredible level right now, he is playing even better than peak Federer from 2006, I seriously mean it. And for anyone to beat a player surpassing the level that Federer has shown us in 2006 at YEC, I would say that he is at his peak.

Djokovic doing it in 2012 or 2013 undefeated is more impressive.

 

[Megafanoftennis100]

Djokovic doing it in 2012 or 2013 undefeated is more impressive.

2023 Sinner > 2006 Federer >> 2012-2013 Djokovic at ATP Finals
So defeating 2023 Sinner will be more impressive

 

[Razer]

How many Slams does ‘15 Djokovic win in 2003?

All 4 Grand Slams he will win.

 

[RS]

All 4 Grand Slams he will win.

7 masters and the YEC too?

 

[Neptune]

Wow.

You guys are something else with this stuff.

After those blunt slam draws against Nole:
1. RG, meet top available favorite as early as possible almost every year.
2. Non-clay, 2008-2011, on Fed's side 12 times in a row.
3. HC, pigeon Stan all a sudden can take Nole to 5 hours 5-set in AO13, then continued in draw to meet as early as possible 4 times in a row.
....

What can be a surprise?

 

[NoleFam]

2023 Sinner > 2006 Federer >> 2012-2013 Djokovic at ATP Finals
So defeating 2023 Sinner will be more impressive

I didn't watch the 2006 ATP Finals but I don't think I heard that was Federer's higest level there. Maybe 2004 was? 2012 and 2013 Djokovic < 2006 Federer at ATP Finals? I would definitely have to watch 2006 Federer to conclude that. Djokovic in 2012 and 2013 was very impressive though and I don't think this year's field is touching the field in those years, especially the one in 2012. Not to say this year's field is weak, but those 2 years were two of the toughest in the OE.

 

[Third Serve]

Are we seriously entertaining the idea that 2023 Sinner was even remotely comparable to peak Fed at the YEC?

 

[helterskelter]

People very often claim that even though Djokovic achieved better numbers in 2015 than he did in 2011, his level in 2011 was “significantly” higher.
But I have a feeling that Djokovic was simply trying to conserve energy in 2015 by refraining from going completely all out in matches unless absolutely necessary.

In 2011, he was smacking shots like his life depended on it and was playing relentless ferocious tennis, but it was clearly unsustainable and cost him the last 3 months of the season. After the US Open, he performed very poorly (for his standards) — he accumulated 5/6 of his losses for the season, did not even make the semi-finals of the ATP Finals and got BAGELLED by Nishikori!!
A phenomenal start to a season (perhaps the best start ever) followed by an insipid finish.

I think that in 2015, he learned his lesson from 4 years ago and decided to avoid overexerting himself, so that he could play at a more sustainable level that could last longer throughout the season. I don’t believe that it would have been impossible for him to re-awaken his 2011 beast-mode. I meant, come on, he was only 28 years old in 2015 and was still well in is physical prime. But I think that he wanted to take better care of his body - after all, this is the same man who was willing to sacrifice his career just to stand by his principles about his body.

But what do you guys think? Would you agree? Or not?

I'm not answering the poll, because I am not satisfied with any of the possible answers. I agree that his level in 2015 was similar to that in 2011. But I don't think I'd say he was pacing himself. I think he was playing a bit more conservatively but not to save energy, but rather because he thought that would be more effective. Overall, I just about rate 2015 as his best-ever year.

 

[RS]

Who played at a higher level?

1. Djokovic Wim 15 final or Tsonga AO 08 SF
2. Tsonga AO 08 SF or Federer Wim 12 final
3. Djokovic YEC 15 final or Federer YEC 12 final
4. Nadal AO 12 final or Nadal RG 17 final
5. Nadal AO 09 final or Nadal RG 06 final
6. Nadal USO 10 final or Federer Wim 08 final

 

[Biotic]

Who played at a higher level?

1. Djokovic Wim 15 final or Tsonga AO 08 SF
2. Tsonga AO 08 SF or Federer Wim 12 final
3. Djokovic YEC 15 final or Federer YEC 12 final
4. Nadal AO 12 final or Nadal RG 17 final
5. Nadal AO 09 final or Nadal RG 06 final

Djoko
Tsonga
Djoko
Who cares
Same as above

 

[Megafanoftennis100]

Who played at a higher level?

1. Djokovic Wim 15 final or Tsonga AO 08 SF
2. Tsonga AO 08 SF or Federer Wim 12 final
3. Djokovic YEC 15 final or Federer YEC 12 final
4. Nadal AO 12 final or Nadal RG 17 final
5. Nadal AO 09 final or Nadal RG 06 final

1. Definitely Djokovic. Only 2003-2006 Federer on grass could have stopped him that day.
2. Definitely Federer.
3. Very close call, 50/50 but I would give a slight edge to Djokovic.
4. RG 17 final for sure, that was rivaling even his RG 08 campaign. He was sensational at RG in 2017.
5. AO 09 final without a doubt.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Who played at a higher level?

1. Djokovic Wim 15 final or Tsonga AO 08 SF
2. Tsonga AO 08 SF or Federer Wim 12 final
3. Djokovic YEC 15 final or Federer YEC 12 final
4. Nadal AO 12 final or Nadal RG 17 final
5. Nadal AO 09 final or Nadal RG 06 final
6. Nadal USO 10 final or Federer Wim 08 final

1. Djokovic Wimbledon 2015 final
2. Federer Wimbledon 2012 final
3. Djokovic YEC 15 final
4. Nadal RG 17 final
5. Undecided
6. Nadal USO 10 final

 

[Neptune]

I didn't watch the 2006 ATP Finals but I don't think I heard that was Federer's higest level there. Maybe 2004 was? 2012 and 2013 Djokovic < 2006 Federer at ATP Finals? I would definitely have to watch 2006 Federer to conclude that. Djokovic in 2012 and 2013 was very impressive though and I don't think this year's field is touching the field in those years, especially the one in 2012. Not to say this year's field is weak, but those 2 years were two of the toughest in the OE.

2006 Fed opponents:
Rafa, Roddick, Nalbandian, Ljubicic, Blake
Only Rafa and Roddick have an over 70% on HC

 

[NoleFam]

2006 Fed opponents:
Rafa, Roddick, Nalbandian, Ljubicic, Blake
Only Rafa and Roddick have an over 70% on HC

I think 2023 Sinner can handle that field. I know 2012 and 2013 Djokovic can. Lol.

 

[RS]

I think 2023 Sinner can handle that field. I know 2012 and 2013 Djokovic can. Lol.

Murray YEC 16 vs Sinner YEC 23 for now?

 

[Third Serve]

Roddick and Nadal from YEC 2006 would probably have beaten 2023 Sinner.

 

[Megafanoftennis100]

Murray YEC 16 vs Sinner YEC 23 for now?

2023 Sinner by a hair.

 

[NoleFam]

Murray YEC 16 vs Sinner YEC 23 for now?

The only match I watched of Murray that tournament was the final.

 

[Megafanoftennis100]

Roddick and Nadal from YEC 2006 would probably have beaten 2023 Sinner.

LMAO no way, even 2006 Federer would have been defeated by this year's Sinner.

 

[RS]

lol no agreement

 

[Neptune]

Roddick and Nadal from YEC 2006 would probably have beaten 2023 Sinner.

Yeah, everyone peaks to infinity when playing Fed

 

[Megafanoftennis100]

Sinner will definitely win the ATP Finals this year! Saying that he won't is as dumb as saying that Federer is a better clay-court player than peak Rafa Nadal

 

[NoleFam]

Roddick and Nadal from YEC 2006 would probably have beaten 2023 Sinner.

Didn't Roddick lose in the RR 1-2?

 

[Third Serve]

LMAO no way, even 2006 Federer would have been defeated by this year's Sinner.

Sinner is playing well but this is a ludicrous take.

Yeah, everyone peaks to infinity when playing Fed

Roddick and Nadal were pretty good but not even particularly special opponents. The bar has fallen quite a bit since then.

 

[RS]

The only match I watched of Murray that tournament was the final.

I will ask tomorrow then.

 

[StrongRule]

He made his 1st 6 Masters finals in 2011 and had another 3 Slam year before his body started to break down. So I guess 2011 must have had a lower level of competition too. Yea Berdych, the guy who beat all of the big 3 in Slams. Djokovic has had the most top 10 wins or tied for most top 10 wins every year since 2009, except 2010 and 2017. Shows how little you know.

Yeah, nice of you bringing some stats from 2010. Better watch his record against top players starting from 2014. A win over the worst ever Nadal in AO was pretty much his only top-10 win in 2015. (maybe he had another one against Tsonga or something, but that's it)

 

[NoleFam]

I will ask tomorrow then.

I still won't know the answer unless it's just the final level. Lol.

 

[Third Serve]

Didn't Roddick lose in the RR 1-2?

He played a great match vs. Fed and almost beat him, I’m going off that one.

 

[RS]

Yeah, nice of you bringing some stats from 2010. Better watch his record against top players starting from 2014. A win over the worst ever Nadal in AO was pretty much his only top-10 win in 2015. (maybe he had another one against Tsonga or something, but that's it)

When did he say Berdych was a GOAT player though?

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Staminal was epic AF that day! His performance was as epic as his shorts. Fair play! Haha

Wait by shorts do you mean these YT shorts like the one you quoted that show amazing points or do you mean the shorts he was wearing that match?

 

[Neptune]

Roddick and Nadal were pretty good but not even particularly special opponents. The bar has fallen quite a bit since then.

2006 Rafa on HC, really showed the height of Fed peak

 

[NoleFam]

Yeah, nice of you bringing some stats from 2010. Better watch his record against top players starting from 2014. A win over the worst ever Nadal in AO was pretty much his only top-10 win in 2015. (maybe he had another one against Tsonga or something, but that's it)

Beat Djokovic in 2010, Federer in 2012 and Nadal in 2015. His record against the top 10 in 2014 was 5-7, hardly what I would call bad. Wasn't as good in 2015 but most of those losses were to Djokovic, Federer and Murray. Berdych finished in the top 10 every year from 2010-2016 but what's the obsession with Berdych? Djokovic has a slew of top 10 wins over everybody or do you just ignore that, and cry weak era over every Djokovic stat when he pretty much owns them all? I'm going with yes.

 

[Third Serve]

2006 Rafa on HC, really showed the height of Fed peak

Go check out the match.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Djokovic in 2015 made all 4 Slam finals, the final of the ATP Finals, and 8 of 9 Masters finals. He didn't play the 9th one. I really don't think that will ever be duplicated.

Djokovic in 2011 was more relentless baseline domination (43 wins in a row) but 2015 had more sustained efficiency with more levels in his game in my opinion ( better serve and a better all court player).

Exactly 2015 was way more elegant and refined smoothly toying with opponents rather than brute force struggling like 2011

 

[Neptune]

Yeah, nice of you bringing some stats from 2010. Better watch his record against top players starting from 2014. A win over the worst ever Nadal in AO was pretty much his only top-10 win in 2015. (maybe he had another one against Tsonga or something, but that's it)

What's up with you, can you even look?

 

[StrongRule]

Beat Djokovic in 2010, Federer in 2012 and Nadal in 2015. His record against the top 10 in 2014 was 5-7, hardly what I would call bad. Wasn't as good in 2015 but most of those losses were to Djokovic, Federer and Murray. Berdych finished in the top 10 every year from 2010-2016 but what's the obsession with Berdych? Djokovic has a slew of top 10 wins over everybody or do you just ignore that, and cry weak era over every Djokovic stat when he pretty much owns them all? I'm going with yes.

Berdych was always a punching bag for Nadal and Djokovic, and starting from 2014 Federer and Murray totally owned him as well. The fact that he was a top-10 player in 2015-2016 says it all about the field. Same about many other players. But come on, you even find a way to ignore the level of the 2023 field.

Yet you are good at calling 2017 a weak year.

 

[NoleFam]

Exactly 2015 was way more elegant and refined smoothly toying with opponents rather than brute force struggling like 2011

Yea, not going out all unless it's necessary and learning to conserve more. That was probably the main difference. Probably should went with a more brute force strategy at RG, but you can't really win them all. Only the real letdown in a spectacular season.

 

[RS]

Berdych probably peaked in 2010-2013. Fed had a nightmare dealing with him.

I could have seen Fed winning USO 12 if Berdych didn't stop him not sure Murray would have been able to blow him off the court like that.

 

[RS]

Berdych was always a punching bag for Nadal and Djokovic, and starting from 2014 Federer and Murray totally owned him as well. The fact that he was a top-10 player in 2015-2016 says it all about the field. Same about many other players. But come on, you even find a way to ignore the level of the 2023 field.

Yet you are good at calling 2017 a weak year.

2017-2019 arguably stronger than 2015-2016?

 

[StrongRule]

2017-2019 arguably stronger than 2015-2016?

I don't know, it's all part of a weak era. But sure as hell that was better than the current asterisk era.

 

[Neptune]

2017-2019 arguably stronger than 2015-2016?

base on what?

 

[RS]

I don't know, it's all part of a weak era. But sure as hell that was better than the current asterisk era.

 

[NoleFam]

Berdych was always a punching bag for Nadal and Djokovic, and starting from 2014 Federer and Murray totally owned him as well. The fact that he was a top-10 player in 2015-2016 says it all about the field. Same about many other players. But come on, you even find a way to ignore the level of the 2023 field.

Yet you are good at calling 2017 a weak year.

Everybody was a punching bag for the big 3 mostly, except Wawrinka and Murray on occassion and even they ended up with bad h2h records, except Murray/Federer. You're talking about the field as the reason when you ignore Djokovic has the most top 10 wins every year in the last 13 out of 15 seasons. It's not limited to 2015 or 2016. 2017 was a weak year and definitely weaker than 2023 unless you have serious blinders on, which we know is also a yes.