Hours played and NTRP

raiden031

Legend
I was curious if there is any attempt at a correlation between hours played/practiced and NTRP level? I know someone said 10,000 hours for going pro, but what about the other levels? I'm sure the lower the level, the less hours between levels.

I went ahead and thought back through my entire life of tennis. I started playing slightly over 7 years ago, with a 2 year hiatus up until this past August. I did an estimate of the number of hours I've played before and after this summer. I'm trying to find a pattern in my hours played and improvement. Here goes.

Total Hours Played: 338
From September 99 to August 06: 211 (62%)
From August 06 - February 07: 127 (38%)

Here is my estimate of hours played as each NTRP level:

2.5 - 30
3.0 - 225
3.5 - 83

So this basically took me from 2.5 to weak 3.5. I know that my calculations are just guesses and that some hours (particularly the latest ones) are more valuable than others. Does this look reasonable to anyone?

I know you must think I'm crazy, but I'm really bored right now.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Here is my estimate. I played for fun in high school and college with friends and was a 3.0. I played about 200 hours over 4-5 years.

Then I started playing more regularly with a partner but only during the summer and got to 3.5. Again for another 5 years but now for about 500 hours.

Now I am near the top of the 4.0s playing about twice a week year round and it's been about 1000 hours of court time.

I think I can get to 4.5 but likely it will be through doubles but may still take several hundred more hours of court time but for now I will enjoy whipping up on most 4.0s!

If I would have started younger and paid for coaching and better technique, these numbers could be much lower but I just enjoy the game without spending alot of money on it.
 
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adlis

Professional
The math says 10 X 365 X 5 = 18,250 hours and now you are pro??????

No because without talent you have to grind it out and work up to a level only attainable by the pros.

Also the itf refuse to give me a ipin for reasons i don't know so i CANNOT enter futures without one.
 
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serveitup911

Semi-Pro
My Level - Total Hours to reach (Estimated as accurately as possible)
1.0 - 0
1.5 - 10
2.0 - 50
2.5 - 120
3.0 - 600
3.5 - 1200
4.0 - 2000
4.5 - 3200
5.0 - 5000
5.5 - 7000
6.0 - 9500+ (Still Here)
 

GRANITECHIEF

Hall of Fame
Gotta agree with serveitup there. How long would a body last hitting 10 hours a day.

Also, serveitup, where are you based?
 

lethalfang

Professional
I think I have played a grand total of 200 hours (for a total of 8 1/2 month, about 4-6 hours each week), and I'm at least a 3.0.
 

retrowagen

Hall of Fame
For what it's worth, 3-4 hours, 6 days a week, got me to 5.5-ish level within the span of six years. No holidays, played and trained rain or shine.

Of course, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror are closer than they appear, etc.
 

raiden031

Legend
My Level - Total Hours to reach (Estimated as accurately as possible)
1.0 - 0
1.5 - 10
2.0 - 50
2.5 - 120
3.0 - 600
3.5 - 1200
4.0 - 2000
4.5 - 3200
5.0 - 5000
5.5 - 7000
6.0 - 9500+ (Still Here)

I won't comment on the higher level stuff, but you are saying it took 600 hours just to reach 3.0? That is almost double the entire time I've ever played.
 

raiden031

Legend
Retro, you must have some serious talent. Did you play or do you play college tennis?

He works out to like 6,500 hours.

I am extremely discouraged from what I'm seeing of the high level players. Maybe I won't ever reach the higher levels (4.5 is my goal) :(
 
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serveitup911

Semi-Pro
Raiden, I started when I was 8 years old. I played about 600 hours my first year and played evenly with my dad by the time I was 9 years old. He was a strong 3.0 at that time.
 

joeyscl

Rookie
I'm a 3.5 and there is *No way* I played more than 600 hours. It all depends on talent and athetisism. I have a friend who probably played for 50~100 hours and hes still a 2.0 (he kinda gave up on tennis after that)
 

adlis

Professional
Adlis, there is no way you consistently play 10 hours a day. Sorry.

Playing tennis doesn't have to be on the court.

serves, tossing practice, fitness, footwork, watching pros techniques via video or in person, gym, physio, endurance work+ court time does equal 10 hours a day. Why is that too much for? last time i counted we have 24 hours a day why waste them? life's too short.
 
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goober

Legend
From 1.0 to get to 4.0 the amount of time will greatly vary. If you have a strong desire to improve you will do so in a short amount of time especially if you are in good shape and half athletic. OTOH I know lots of people who play 20 years at the 3.0-3.5 level because they are not really trying to improve. They are happy with just hacking the ball around. My first year of playing I barely improved at all because tennis was just a diversion I did once a week or less with some friends. I gave absolutely no thought to my strokes or strategy. Once I got serious I got to 4.0 fairly quickly.
 

retrowagen

Hall of Fame
Retro, you must have some serious talent. Did you play or do you play college tennis?

Played. Back in the late 80's/early 90's. Played juniors in the UK in the mid-80's and some very minor league satellite stuff on the West Coast and Europe in the late 80's/early 90's, too. Never had the financial or emotional backing of my parents; never had proper coaching (I'm essentially self-taught; just read the classic books on the game and emulated my favorite pros, and hit against a wall at least two hours a day, every day). I never really made my mark, or saw enough good results to begin thinking I could get beyond the minor leagues, so at age 22 (in 1992), I hung up my rackets - it just wasn't fun anymore.

In 1996, I came out of retirement briefly, to show my new wife what I could do. I entered my local open tournament (City championships) with no training and having not hit in around four years, and made it to the finals! Mission accomplished, I retired again and have only started hitting again recently. The rust is starting to fall off in practice, and my love for the game is stronger than ever!
 

adlis

Professional
Played. Back in the late 80's/early 90's. Played juniors in the UK in the mid-80's and some very minor league satellite stuff on the West Coast and Europe in the late 80's/early 90's, too. Never had the financial or emotional backing of my parents; never had proper coaching (I'm essentially self-taught; just read the classic books on the game and emulated my favorite pros, and hit against a wall at least two hours a day, every day). I never really made my mark, or saw enough good results to begin thinking I could get beyond the minor leagues, so at age 22 (in 1992), I hung up my rackets - it just wasn't fun anymore.

In 1996, I came out of retirement briefly, to show my new wife what I could do. I entered my local open tournament (City championships) with no training and having not hit in around four years, and made it to the finals! Mission accomplished, I retired again and have only started hitting again recently. The rust is starting to fall off in practice, and my love for the game is stronger than ever!

Most impressive for a self taught player considering what you achieved on the circuit.
 

serveitup911

Semi-Pro
That's great to hear, Retro.

Adlis, I only counted on court time and I assumed you did too.
Of course, I spend a lot of time off court, also. I still have a hard time believing 10 hours a day, though.
 

adlis

Professional
That's great to hear, Retro.

Adlis, I only counted on court time and I assumed you did too.
Of course, I spend a lot of time off court, also. I still have a hard time believing 10 hours a day, though.

10 hours playing tennis feels like 30 minutes on these forums i can assure you!

serveitup911 what level are you anyway?
 
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kimizz

Rookie
For beginner I think its all about motivation and what you do off court. I think ive played 100hours in one year. Thats also the hours Ive played tennis in my life. I have little exp. but my coach sayd im at 3.0. I want to point out that since day1 Ive been supervised by a coach that really knows what hes talking about. So if Ive been doing something wrong he would immediatly correct me.

I have been playing soccer, hockey, skiing, wrestling etc for my whole life before I started tennis at 20years of age. So Im very athletic. And if I start something I really get obsessed of getting better. So I look at pros, read instructions and focus on improving my game a lot. The unfortunate thing is that I can play only 1,5-3 hours/week. But everytime I step on the court I allready know what Im trying to learn and improve.

This might seem embarassing but I also sometimes swing at my house without ball or anything, just with the racquet. I try to see in a mirror what might be wrong in my strokes. It certainly doesnt replace real court time but it does help with creating muscle memory especially with serve.(I saw in these boards a youtube clip with some kid doing the same, ITS not me seriously LOL)

It sucks but I dont have a chance to play when ever I want...I know it would improve my tennis a lot.
 
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raiden031

Legend
Playing tennis doesn't have to be on the court.

serves, tossing practice, fitness, footwork, watching pros techniques via video or in person, gym, physio, endurance work+ court time does equal 10 hours a day. Why is that too much for? last time i counted we have 24 hours a day why waste them? life's too short.

Please don't ruin this thread by making everyone include the time spent brushing their teeth to avoid losing valuable court time while at the dentist's office getting cavities filled.

For this thread's purposes, lifting, watching TV, running, and anything else that is not directly related to playing tennis do not count. I could say I played 5000 hours probably if you include the amount of running and lifting I do, and it has not made me a better tennis player. There are plenty of people that watch all the grand slams and can't play tennis.
 

energy-101

New User
Well, only one lesson under my belt, instructor said I was at 2.0 though, my goal is 2.5 in a month, I will update you then!
 

tennisnj

Professional
It's not the hours you spend on the court, it's what you do with your time on them. If you practice 6 hours a day & get nowhere, then you're obvioulsy doing something wrong. Some people PLAY 3 hours a day & get much, much more out of that than PRACTICING for 6 hours. I was one of those players, & as a HS coach & tennis instructor, I continue that philosophy. I don't believe in long, winded practices, I prefer getting my players match tough.
I never had a formal 'professional lesson' in my life, & that might explain why my strokes are unorthodox & unrefined, BUT, it didn't stop me from playing @ a D1 school & currently winning countless high level tournaments.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
28,000 hours is alot to commit to tennis! Did you get a scholarship or coaching job as payback? Or do you just love the game that much?
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
I only included court time in my estimates as time spent working out and reading tennis books and magazines is not quite the same as court time where you are actually hitting balls.
 

raiden031

Legend
I only included court time in my estimates as time spent working out and reading tennis books and magazines is not quite the same as court time where you are actually hitting balls.

Time spent on this board or thinking about tennis shouldn't count either.
 

warneck

Rookie
Adlis, 10hours/day, even in total? So you basically have 2 kilos of chicken to lunch?

You know, I practice 24hours/day.. For example: When I sleep I recover my strength so I can practice more against the wall. When I eat its because I burn so many cals/daily training tennis. When I take a poo its so I won't need to when I am with my hitting partner.

Seriously - I use 15-30 hours each week training. That does NOT include reading, slacking off, watching porn and having my girlfriend over from some tennis fun, inside her. (Geez, forget I said that!) I use 8-14 hours each week playing pure tennis, with a hitting partner that is.

I find it quite funny that people say they can reach high levels in less time than someone starting NINE YEARS OLD. To clarify my point. How many nine years old here runs 65 yards faster than 10 seconds? How many runs 3000 meters in less than 13 minutes? And last but all.. How many nine years old can benchpress more than 50 pounds?

Also, reaching low levels fast, may end your development rather quickly as well.
 

raiden031

Legend
I find it quite funny that people say they can reach high levels in less time than someone starting NINE YEARS OLD. To clarify my point. How many nine years old here runs 65 yards faster than 10 seconds? How many runs 3000 meters in less than 13 minutes? And last but all.. How many nine years old can benchpress more than 50 pounds?

Who made this claim? What are you trying to say?
 

adlis

Professional
For beginner I think its all about motivation and what you do off court. I think ive played 100hours in one year. Thats also the hours Ive played tennis in my life. I have little exp. but my coach sayd im at 3.0. I want to point out that since day1 Ive been supervised by a coach that really knows what hes talking about. So if Ive been doing something wrong he would immediatly correct me.

I have been playing soccer, hockey, skiing, wrestling etc for my whole life before I started tennis at 20years of age. So Im very athletic. And if I start something I really get obsessed of getting better. So I look at pros, read instructions and focus on improving my game a lot. The unfortunate thing is that I can play only 1,5-3 hours/week. But everytime I step on the court I allready know what Im trying to learn and improve.

This might seem embarassing but I also sometimes swing at my house without ball or anything, just with the racquet. I try to see in a mirror what might be wrong in my strokes. It certainly doesnt replace real court time but it does help with creating muscle memory especially with serve.(I saw in these boards a youtube clip with some kid doing the same, ITS not me seriously LOL)

It sucks but I dont have a chance to play when ever I want...I know it would improve my tennis a lot.

Your entheusiasm for the sport is enchanting. Winter is the worst season for tennis becase of the minus temperatures plus there's 1 foot of snow out side.
 

lethalfang

Professional
For beginner I think its all about motivation and what you do off court. I think ive played 100hours in one year. Thats also the hours Ive played tennis in my life. I have little exp. but my coach sayd im at 3.0. I want to point out that since day1 Ive been supervised by a coach that really knows what hes talking about. So if Ive been doing something wrong he would immediatly correct me.

I have been playing soccer, hockey, skiing, wrestling etc for my whole life before I started tennis at 20years of age. So Im very athletic. And if I start something I really get obsessed of getting better. So I look at pros, read instructions and focus on improving my game a lot. The unfortunate thing is that I can play only 1,5-3 hours/week. But everytime I step on the court I allready know what Im trying to learn and improve.

This might seem embarassing but I also sometimes swing at my house without ball or anything, just with the racquet. I try to see in a mirror what might be wrong in my strokes. It certainly doesnt replace real court time but it does help with creating muscle memory especially with serve.(I saw in these boards a youtube clip with some kid doing the same, ITS not me seriously LOL)

It sucks but I dont have a chance to play when ever I want...I know it would improve my tennis a lot.

Dang, you sound very much like me!
There are black spots on my ceiling because I sometimes take empty service swings. I've also watched myself in the mirror taking empty swings, trying to get a sense of my racquet speed and form.
I'm 25 years old, and I also started playing tennis only last summer, and I'm at 3.0 now. I play tennis because I choose to, and by that choice I am willing to put in the effort to improve my game, instead of pushing the balls back and forth. If you ain't giving your all doing something, you might as well not do it.
Everyday for the past 8 months, I felt that if I had played against myself 2 weeks ago, the current me would whup myself from 2 weeks ago in tennis.
 

kimizz

Rookie
Your entheusiasm for the sport is enchanting. Winter is the worst season for tennis becase of the minus temperatures plus there's 1 foot of snow out side.

Yeah winter is a bummer, our summer in Finland is only 3 months. If we are lucky we can play 5 months outdoors but thats very unlikely. Rest of the year once or twice a week in expensive indoor courts :-( Cant wait to finish college and start earning some money hehe

lethalfang: Very nice to know im not the only one :) Ive noticed that serve is something that you really need to do in court also. Empty swings is so much different. But for beginners serve is REALLY awkward and difficult. The toss, getting in the bowers arch, having a good balance etc. Empty swings helps you create some muscle memory for these things. But the important fine tuning happens at the court.
 

Sagittar

Hall of Fame
come on guys , it really depends on various factors , amount of time spent on court is only one of them !!
so it really shouldn't be the only judge to how good you are!
 

itsstephenyo

Semi-Pro
I have absolutely no idea what rating I am. I've only been playing for about three months with no coaching or anything. I do own a ball machine, though, and I practice with that regularly. I can rally consistently against some guys I play with who have been playing tennis for a few years now, and once in a while, hit winners against them. I've had maybe 40 hrs of court time. It'd be interesting to see what my level is though. I can only assume I'm doing some stuff right if I can hang with guys that have played for years.
 

lethalfang

Professional
lethalfang: Very nice to know im not the only one :) Ive noticed that serve is something that you really need to do in court also. Empty swings is so much different. But for beginners serve is REALLY awkward and difficult. The toss, getting in the bowers arch, having a good balance etc. Empty swings helps you create some muscle memory for these things. But the important fine tuning happens at the court.

You're exactly right.
When I first started to learn to serve with the continental grip, I just couldn't get the swing right. Something in my mechanic was awful because I was jamming and hurting my shoulders every time. So from time to time, I tried some empty service swings at my home in order to smoothen out my swing mechanics.
Now I don't hurt myself serving anymore. :p
 

adlis

Professional
hey adlis are you a pro, if not what level are you? since you talk about itf pins and futures

If i was a pro i wouldn't post 25444 posts a day on here for sure. I cant get an ipin because i do not have a national rank. so no futures for me
 

krprunitennis2

Professional
I was curious if there is any attempt at a correlation between hours played/practiced and NTRP level? I know someone said 10,000 hours for going pro, but what about the other levels? I'm sure the lower the level, the less hours between levels.

I went ahead and thought back through my entire life of tennis. I started playing slightly over 7 years ago, with a 2 year hiatus up until this past August. I did an estimate of the number of hours I've played before and after this summer. I'm trying to find a pattern in my hours played and improvement. Here goes.

Total Hours Played: 338
From September 99 to August 06: 211 (62%)
From August 06 - February 07: 127 (38%)

Here is my estimate of hours played as each NTRP level:

2.5 - 30
3.0 - 225
3.5 - 83

So this basically took me from 2.5 to weak 3.5. I know that my calculations are just guesses and that some hours (particularly the latest ones) are more valuable than others. Does this look reasonable to anyone?

I know you must think I'm crazy, but I'm really bored right now.

5x5=25. 25x(365/7)= 25x53.7= 1339.29. 1339.29x1.5=about 1674.

So around 1674 hours! o_O oh yeah! I'm a 7.0 player! o_O lol, far from that.
 

adlis

Professional
5x5=25. 25x(365/7)= 25x53.7= 1339.29. 1339.29x1.5=about 1674.

So around 1674 hours! o_O oh yeah! I'm a 7.0 player! o_O lol, far from that.

No.

You need 20,000 practice to become a 7.0++federer (75+hours week)
that translates to over 2 million balls served.




If you cannot hack that you need5,000 7,000 to be a weak 7.0 player and reach the qualifiers of a futures tournament(15+hours week) the lowest atp ranking tournement
 
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zapvor

G.O.A.T.
i dont think the correlation here translates to causation. i am an addict that can play 8 hours a day 6 days a week, and i still suck. so, hours dont translate into NTRP improvements.
 

tennis_hand

Hall of Fame
it depends on your goals.

if you are a teenager and wanna become a potential pro one day, you will train very hard, with hours as well as with targeted skills, with the help of good coaches.

but most of us are just recreational players. As we keep playing, we keep improving until we reach a certain limit, 3.0-3.5 for most people. Then we just maintain the level there, or even comes down. It is impossible to keep on improving with the hours we play and train, because, if so, we would all reach pro tour level when we are in our 50s.
The main reason we don't improve so fast is that we play for entertainment, not solely for skills improvement, and another reason is that the improvement curve is bending downwards, it is harder to improve more when you reach a certain intermediate level.
 
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adlis

Professional
i dont think the correlation here translates to causation. i am an addict that can play 8 hours a day 6 days a week, and i still suck. so, hours dont translate into NTRP improvements.

I would disagree. I've improved massively via hard work and hours on the court. Why should you be different?

The main reason we don't improve so fast is that we play for entertainment,
so do I but i find the sport more enjoyable the more hard work i put into it. Don't you take that view?
Arnold schwarzenegger said the same thing when he was training for mr his 4+ Mr Olympia's.
 
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a guy

Banned
I've been playing for about 3 years and I could give a coach I had something to think about before being overpowered or just outmanouvered. He's rated 4.2 in British terms.

In an ideal world if I could practice a lot every week and get good coaching i'd improve a heck of a lot but its too expensive and there's finding the time atm.
 

Andres

G.O.A.T.
If i was a pro i wouldn't post 25444 posts a day on here for sure. I cant get an ipin because i do not have a national rank. so no futures for me
That doesn't make sense.
I got my IPIN, besides having a National and sectional ranking, but at the moment of obtaining it (the ranking is international), I didn't have to give it.

I had my IPIN 3 weeks after starting the tramitations. I didn't pay for the Online Service, because there was a problem with the application, and after all, I had to have a shoulder surgery and couldn't play any Q matches.

The ranking stuff doesn't make sense to me.
 

adlis

Professional
I've been playing for about 3 years and I could give a coach I had something to think about before being overpowered or just outmanouvered. He's rated 4.2 in British terms.

In an ideal world if I could practice a lot every week and get good coaching i'd improve a heck of a lot but its too expensive and there's finding the time atm.

a 4.2LTA player can enter qualifiers of a futures tournament because some draws have unfilled qualifier slots and fill them up with national ranked players.
This happened at surbiton a few weeks ago when a player missed the sign in for the qualifiers and the slot was given to a 5.0USTA player from hong kong.


I still stand my 10 hour claim by the way, so i think i am on 21,400 hours now i .
 
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